In the long run: Religion, Good or Bad?

[quote name='perdition(troy']*takes notes to prepare for the october religion discussion*[/QUOTE]

im just waiting for the christmas religion thread.

i can see it now, i post an article about a mall taking down a christmas tree, everyone posts about how lame christianity is. the end.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']
i can see it now, i post an article about a mall taking down a christmas tree, everyone posts about how lame christianity is. the end.[/QUOTE]

Those trees are for heathens!

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Like most things, it has it's positives and negatives.

In the long run I voted it does more bad than good. I have nothing really to add that hasn't been said, but my reasons are for limiting intellectualism and science by accepting mystical explanations, justifications for bigotry, wars etc. In the long run I think those outweigh the positives.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']What's wrong with saying 'I don't know'?[/QUOTE]

Nothing at all.

[quote name='rabbitt']We have charlatans of every clothe claiming to know the personal thoughts and feelings of a god that doesn't exist in the first place and making world-rendering decision because people will listen to anyone that shoves "Reverend" in front of their name.[/QUOTE]

I fail to see how this is an indictment of faith itself. But for the sake of argument, I suppose you have an ironclad proof of the nonexistence of any and all gods to back up your assertions?

[quote name='Capitalizt']You don't have "faith" that reason is a good tool to use in order to perceive the world and make informed decisions.[/QUOTE]

Sure you do. To do anything else is to assume your own infallibility.

I mostly agree with the rest of your diatribe. But, again, you've failed to divorce the concept of faith from organized religion. The latter is full of problems. The former has none, at least inherently, though I think we may have different definitions of it.
 
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[quote name='Magus8472']
you've failed to divorce the concept of faith from organized religion. The latter is full of problems. The former has none, at least inherently, though I think we may have different definitions of it.[/QUOTE]

I think you are equivocating the term here. "Faith" that the sun will come up tomorrow is very different from faith in an invisible/magical things for which we have no evidence. It's true there is no such thing as absolute certainty in life. We can know many things with a high degree of certainty, but falling short of absolute proof. Are we omniscient? No. Can we prove that we aren't really brains plugged into the Matrix and that everything we know about reality is an illusion? No. But lacking absolute certainty on these things doesn't in any way put "faith" in our reason/senses on equal footing with faith in supernatural concepts. They are completely different animals.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']I think you are equivocating the term here. "Faith" that the sun will come up tomorrow is very different from faith in an invisible/magical things for which we have no evidence. It's true there is no such thing as absolute certainty in life. We can know many things with a high degree of certainty, but falling short of absolute proof. Are we omniscient? No. Can we prove that we aren't really brains plugged into the Matrix and that everything we know about reality is an illusion? No. But lacking absolute certainty on these things doesn't in any way put "faith" in our reason/senses on equal footing with faith in supernatural concepts. They are completely different animals.[/QUOTE]

We seem to have come back to my original point: everyone has faith in something.

Honestly, though, do you not see the problem that arises when an uncompromising belief in one's own propriety is combined with categorical derision of anyone who thinks to the contrary? I think the word for that is "zeal," yes? I only ask because it seems to be the inevitable attitude taken when someone (e.g. you) wants to sing the praises of empiricism over religious belief, concepts which are not mutually exclusive.
 
I don't have a problem with using religion as a base. I have problems with using religion as a weapon and the wholesale judgement for the misdeeds of a distinct minority that's been going on.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']
I fail to see how this is an indictment of faith itself. But for the sake of argument, I suppose you have an ironclad proof of the nonexistence of any and all gods to back up your assertions?
[/QUOTE]

The burden of proof does not lie with me. I am not the one making fantastic claims about the universe. My evidence on the nonexistence of god is on par with my evidence on the nonexistence of unicorns.

That is to say, because I cannot disprove god does not make it any more likely that he exists. But, we are getting away from the topic at hand.
 
[quote name='Magus8472']everyone has faith in something. .[/QUOTE]

I don't.

I have reasoning and logic behind the things that happen and are going to happen to me.
 
[quote name='HaLLuZiNaTiOnZ']I don't.

I have reasoning and logic behind the things that happen and are going to happen to me.[/QUOTE]

Agreed. I rely on evidence, logic and past experience-not faith, hope etc. when making decisions and living my life.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']a god that doesn't exist in the first place[/QUOTE]

[quote name='rabbitt']The burden of proof does not lie with me. I am not the one making fantastic claims about the universe. My evidence on the nonexistence of god is on par with my evidence on the nonexistence of unicorns. [/QUOTE]

I'd say the burden of proof does lie with you with regards to supporting the unprompted statements you make, but we've digressed enough.

[quote name='HaLLuZiNaTiOnZ']I don't.

I have reasoning and logic behind the things that happen and are going to happen to me.[/QUOTE]

Fair enough, though I think you're missing the point.
 
First, where I'm coming from: I'm an atheist, I don't believe in a god or gods. I can't prove one doesn't exist, but then I don't believe it falls on me to do so.

I have many close friends and people I love who do believe in God. And though I admit that I privately wonder sometimes how rational people can have religious faith, I don't begrudge anyone their right to believe in a higher power.

I think the idea of faith can be a comfort to some people, and help them get through difficult times in their life. If it does, than I don't see how I can dismiss it out of hand as a bad thing.

For me, the bad arises when the basic fundamental values we can all get behind (don't kill, don't steal, etc) are abandoned or perverted to serve some other more insidious goal (impose OUR values on YOU). Mostly I put this at the feet of organized religion. And I don't mean your mom's church and its bake sales, I mean any grand institution which is largely designed to get people to behave a certain way and share a certain set of beliefs. There's no need to go into the long list of misdeeds perpetrated in the name of religion, it's too long to count.

Mostly I have a problem with anyone who follows unquestioningly what a religious authority tells them. They got the don't kill part right, loving your neighbor is pretty good, but when they're also loading up ample portions of bigotry and xenophobia is when rational people should say "wait a second.." but too often they don't.

Faith is not a bad thing. Blind faith is one of the most dangerous forces in the world.

That's all I've got.
 
[quote name='Magus8472'] praises of empiricism over religious belief, concepts which are not mutually exclusive.[/QUOTE]

Ummm, yes they are?

Considering empiricism arises from evidence, and no religious belief relies on evidence that there is a god.
 
Personally I believe that religion is a good thing for the most part. There are bad things about it as well, imo. For instance, a lot of religions think they are 100% correct, and are very closed minded, to the point that they put down other peoples beliefs. I don't think that's right, I think it's biased and just ignorant. I personally think whatever anyone believes is right, there is no wrong religion. I don't think that that outweighs the positive influence that religion has on many people.
 
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