Is a man not entitled to the sweat of his brow? RON PAUL SAYS YES!

Slightly off topic, but for those interested in this side discussion of what is or isn't a democracy (or different types of democracy is a better way of putting it), Fareed Zakaria has an interesting book related to the topic called The Future of Freedom: Illiberal Democracy at Home and Abroad.

I can't fully vouch for it since I'm reading it currently and only a quarter or so through it. But so far it's interesting. From the little I've read it talks about the history of democracy, how it's not always a good thing in terms of liberty, and what things seem to determine whether it succeeds or fails. Focuses on the difference between liberal democracy where there's separation of powers, a clear bill of rights and system to protect human rights/liberties and illiberal democracy which is elected dictators and other tyranny of the majority situations where the government doesn't have enough separation of powers, not enough protections of human rights/liberty etc.

http://www.amazon.com/Future-Freedo...1520/ref=sr_1_2?ie=UTF8&qid=1313504394&sr=8-2
 
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I'm willing to bet that if you asked the average person on the street what the largest democracy in the world is they wouldn't even be close. Hint, it isn't even in the west.
 
For sure. People in the west don't know shit about the eastern world. I know far less than I'd like. It's just not covered much in school with everything mostly focused on US and European history.
 
[quote name='camoor']Speaking for myself, I don't have a problem with weird. I am a fan of many spiritual paths that would be considered weird by contemporary Americans.

However let's not sugarcoat it and call a spade a spade. Fundamentalists are extreme. Fundamentalists are dangerous. Fundamentalist politicians are a disaster.

Moderate Christians are moderate. Moderate Christians are rational. Moderate Christian politicians understand nuance and are open to compromise to get the job done.

The non-Fox news media have this one right.[/QUOTE]

I can agree with that.
Would you consider Perry a fundamentalist?

[quote name='Msut77']When Democrats bring up religion its mostly kumbaya. When cons bring up religion its about bombing brown people smd lynching gay people.[/QUOTE]
Oh?
Can you provide links to popular or common conservative sources that link their religion to racist and homophobic violence? Or was that pulled from some media matters published "how to deal with the tea party" pamphlet?

[quote name='dmaul1114']For sure. People in the west don't know shit about the eastern world. I know far less than I'd like. It's just not covered much in school with everything mostly focused on US and European history.[/QUOTE]

I just got back from a stint in SE Asia and I'm ready to move.
Just need a way to make money.
 
I could seriously live in India, even the heat isn't that bad once you get used to it. The only part that I couldn't get used to was the air pollution and some smells. Nothing like walking past a burning dumpster full of who knows what.

But honestly, there is something inherently different about people there, and in a good way too.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
Would you consider Perry a fundamentalist?[/quote]

I wouldn't myself, as much as I dislike him. He's just like Dubya, a very religious person and doesn't have enough regard for the importance of separation of church and state. But he's not a fundamentalist.

I just got back from a stint in SE Asia and I'm ready to move.
Just need a way to make money.
Click to expand...

Yeah, I'm still considering a move to Taiwan where my girlfriend is from. We're trying to decide whether she will move back to the states or I'll move there. I really liked it--other than the heat and humidity--when I spent June over there.
 
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Yeah it stinks. We were dating for 5 years when she had to move back for 3 years or else pay back a bunch of money her government gave her for grad school. She's been back for a bit over a year, so now we're trying to figure out what to do next. The money she owes goes down by 1/3rd each year, so she may stay one more year and pay off the 1/3rd. Or I may just move over their for a while or permanently depending on how it worked out.

It's mostly up to her. She doesn't seem very happy with her academic job over their as it pays a lot less than she made here and she has to teach more courses which limits her research time (and she's like me and much more focused on research). So career wise her coming back is best for her, but her family is all over their aside from her brother and sister who live in the states. So it's a tough situation.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah it stinks. We were dating for 5 years when she had to move back for 3 years or else pay back a bunch of money her government gave her for grad school. She's been back for a bit over a year, so now we're trying to figure out what to do next. The money she owes goes down by 1/3rd each year, so she may stay one more year and pay off the 1/3rd. Or I may just move over their for a while or permanently depending on how it worked out.

It's mostly up to her. She doesn't seem very happy with her academic job over their as it pays a lot less than she made here and she has to teach more courses which limits her research time (and she's like me and much more focused on research). So career wise her coming back is best for her, but her family is all over their aside from her brother and sister who live in the states. So it's a tough situation.[/QUOTE]
You got back together with her? I thought you said she was crazy...LOLZ.
 
I don't recall ever saying anything like that.

The brief separation was after she first moved back there, nothing really related to relationship problems or anything. Just a lot of questioning whether it was worth it with the distance for a year or two etc.

It's more in limbo/semi-open relationship currently I guess anyway, while we figure out what to do next. We both agree there's no point in continuing if we're not in the same place by next summer at the latest (neither of us want to burn bridges by quitting academic jobs in the middle of the academic year).
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I can agree with that.
Would you consider Perry a fundamentalist?[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Rick Perry']Lord, you are the source of every good thing...You are our only hope, and we stand before you today in awe of your power and in gratitude for your blessings, and humility for our sins. Father, our heart breaks for America. We see discord at home. We see fear in the marketplace. We see anger in the halls of government, and as a nation we have forgotten who made us, who protects us, who blesses us, and for that we cry out for your forgiveness.[/quote]

Yep. "God bless America" is fine. "Jesus, help the marketplace" freaks me the fuck out.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Yep. "God bless America" is fine. "Jesus, help the marketplace" freaks me the fuck out.[/QUOTE]

No wonder he got a D in Principles of Economics. :lol:
 
Ron Paul is in severe denial about his relevancy. The guy is going around wondering why he doesn't get the coverage that everyone else does. It's simple, you're Ron Paul. Nobody talks about you for the same reason they don't talk about Nader, you don't have a chance.
 
Its perfectly fine to ignore a crazy person with no supporters. Particularly if said crazy person has been at it for a long time, i.e. not even news.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']This is probably the first time I have seen Jon Stewart be spot on about something.[/QUOTE]

Guess you've never seen his criticism of the media. Or Fox News, or MSNBC.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Its perfectly fine to ignore a crazy person with no supporters. Particularly if said crazy person has been at it for a long time, i.e. not even news.[/QUOTE]

He has more supporters than the candidates the media pushes, and that is news.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Yep. "God bless America" is fine. "Jesus, help the marketplace" freaks me the fuck out.[/QUOTE]

anti-religious cag coming through

you really know to misquote and twist a quote :roll:

care to link the entire document/article you got that from? it seems like a prayer...not some mumbo jumbo jeebus help the economy cuz we're all going to burn in hell crap that you're claiming.

until they pull out the religious card on national television, i've yet to see anything(from a reliable source) that shows proof of fundamentalism.

""To applause, the 61-year-old governor expressed his view of a "personal God" whose "agenda is not a political agenda. His agenda is a salvation agenda." Chuckling, he added, "He is a wise, wise God, and he's wise enough to not be affiliated with any political party."""

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/07/nation/la-na-perry-prayer-20110807

this was the only article i found on a reliable newspaper(*gasp* even a liberal one) that wasn't from a small personal blog section/biased piece that gets no spotlight.
 
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[quote name='IRHari']Guess you've never seen his criticism of the media. Or Fox News, or MSNBC.[/QUOTE]

True. I mean, I agree about the Ron Paul stuff of course. But come on Jon is hilarious and on the money most of the time.
 
Prayers are inherently functional things, are they not - offered up with some purpose or goal in mind, yes?

I can't be arsed to find the quote. NYT, probably.

But here's a question for you: is it anti-religious to point out that someone has stretched their religion that it melds uncomfortably with their thoughts on policy? Or are you someone who can't handle religion being criticized at all, no matter what shape it takes (unless it disagrees with your own faith)?

"anti-religious cag." get over yourself.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Prayers are inherently functional things, are they not - offered up with some purpose or goal in mind, yes?

I can't be arsed to find the quote. NYT, probably.

But here's a question for you: is it anti-religious to point out that someone has stretched their religion that it melds uncomfortably with their thoughts on policy? Or are you someone who can't handle religion being criticized at all, no matter what shape it takes (unless it disagrees with your own faith)?

"anti-religious cag." get over yourself.[/QUOTE]

ignorant cag refusing to read?

i do have an issue with people who, rightfully, wish to not be religious and are blindly against religion. on par with racism, really.

http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/us/politics/07prayer.html?scp=9&sq=rick perry religion&st=cse

heres the article i guess, nowhere does he directly say "Jesus, guide the marketplace to prosperity, etc". Just a lack of reading comprehension/ lack of experience with religious prayers i guess
 
[quote name='yahoosale14']anti-religious cag coming through

you really know to misquote and twist a quote :roll:

care to link the entire document/article you got that from? it seems like a prayer...not some mumbo jumbo jeebus help the economy cuz we're all going to burn in hell crap that you're claiming.

until they pull out the religious card on national television, i've yet to see anything(from a reliable source) that shows proof of fundamentalism.

""To applause, the 61-year-old governor expressed his view of a "personal God" whose "agenda is not a political agenda. His agenda is a salvation agenda." Chuckling, he added, "He is a wise, wise God, and he's wise enough to not be affiliated with any political party."""

http://articles.latimes.com/2011/aug/07/nation/la-na-perry-prayer-20110807


this was the only article i found on a reliable newspaper(*gasp* even a liberal one) that wasn't from a small personal blog section/biased piece that gets no spotlight.[/QUOTE]

tl dr: Governor Pretty-Hair has just enough smarts to blatantly cover his ass.
 
[quote name='yahoosale14']ignorant cag refusing to read?

i do have an issue with people who, rightfully, wish to not be religious and are blindly against religion. on par with racism, really.[/QUOTE]
HAHAHAHAH...yup...sure is!:roll:
 
[quote name='dohdough']HAHAHAHAH...yup...sure is!:roll:[/QUOTE]

discrimination is still discrimination...race,religion, gender, etc.

why would religion be exempt?
 
LA Times is liberal?

yeesh.

boys, we got ouah'selves a fresh 'un.

Yes, yes, his agenda is not a political agenda. For my next trick, I'm going to start off a sentence by saying "I'm not a racist, but..."
 
[quote name='yahoosale14']discrimination is still discrimination...race,religion, gender, etc.

why would religion be exempt?[/QUOTE]
Who said it should be exempt? And not all oppression is equal. We have some pretty overt Islamophobia; are you including them too? Cause you seem to be coming from a pretty Christian-centric view.
 
[quote name='yahoosale14']discrimination is still discrimination...race,religion, gender, etc.

why would religion be exempt?[/QUOTE]
If I may interject?

Many individuals can't help but laugh any time a hegemon cries, "Persecution!"

That the dominant group in question has the virtue of being persecuted as part of its... mythos... creates something of a self-sustaining cycle of outrage and facepalming.

Dig?
 
[quote name='Blaster man']Is perry a 'tea party candidate'? Does he want a balanced budget with no tax increase?[/QUOTE]

All 8 of the candidates at the debate in Iowa last week said they would not support a spending bill that had $10 in cuts for every $1 in increased revenue.

Perry wasn't at the debate, but I'm sure he'd have said the same. That seems to be a key republican talking point--no new tax revenues of any kind--to try to appeal to the tea baggers.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']All 8 of the candidates at the debate in Iowa last week said they would not support a spending bill that had $10 in cuts for every $1 in increased revenue.

Perry wasn't at the debate, but I'm sure he'd have said the same. That seems to be a key republican talking point--no new tax revenues of any kind--to try to appeal to the tea baggers.[/QUOTE]

I kind of hope Perry is the Republican candidate. That way we can have "mofo" jokes for a full year. If you don't know what I'm talking about, he walked out of an interview a couple years ago when he didn't like the questions. He told the interviewer, "audios mofo". You can probably find it on youtube.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']If I may interject?

Many individuals can't help but laugh any time a hegemon cries, "Persecution!"

That the dominant group in question has the virtue of being persecuted as part of its... mythos... creates something of a self-sustaining cycle of outrage and facepalming.

Dig?[/QUOTE]

ya dig. its got nothing to do with Christianity...more so religious v atheist/agnostic/etc. i wouldn't care if perry was islamic or jewish, its the fact that hes commenting on something he doesn't want to understand or is aimed at twisting.

bigots or people have no knowledge in a subject should refrain from commenting. See: bachmann. you can't debate with close minded people....

and for the LA times being liberal...LA and California are both liberal and have been for quite some time...its a fair assumption that the paper is too. are you claiming the paper is a fox news affiliate? :roll:
 
[quote name='dohdough']Who said it should be exempt? And not all oppression is equal. We have some pretty overt Islamophobia; are you including them too? Cause you seem to be coming from a pretty Christian-centric view.[/QUOTE]

you comment was directed at religion...seeing as it was the only one listed and you used ":roll".

not all oppression is equal? a beating based on race,religion,gender,etc are all equal. different acts are judged on a case-by-case basis if you really want to....its still discrimination or oppression.

if a building gets burnt down vs getting punched in the face....obviously theyre not equal in regards to jail time, buts its still discriminatory.
 
[quote name='yahoosale14']and for the LA times being liberal...LA and California are both liberal and have been for quite some time...its a fair assumption that the paper is too.[/QUOTE]

The New York Post and Fox News are based in New York, ergo they are liberal as well?

are you claiming the paper is a fox news affiliate? :roll:
Click to expand...

A paper is liberal *or* it is conservative? Cool false dichotomy bro.
 
[quote name='yahoosale14']you comment was directed at religion...seeing as it was the only one listed and you used ":roll".

not all oppression is equal? a beating based on race,religion,gender,etc are all equal. different acts are judged on a case-by-case basis if you really want to....its still discrimination or oppression.

if a building gets burnt down vs getting punched in the face....obviously theyre not equal in regards to jail time, buts its still discriminatory.[/QUOTE]
You don't understand how it operates between a systemic and individual level because you don't know what hegemony means. Look it up.

And if the recent poll that puts teabaggers having a lower approval rate than atheists and Muslims says anything, it's that you don't know what you're talking about.
 
[quote name='dohdough']You don't understand how it operates between a systemic and individual level because you don't know what hegemony means. Look it up.

And if the recent poll that puts teabaggers having a lower approval rate than atheists and Muslims says anything, it's that you don't know what you're talking about.[/QUOTE]

:dunce: you compared a political stance(which obviously has christians, but does not exclude non christians) to two religious groups. and i dont know what im talking about?

so....you're saying that the same act of discrimination is different depending on the victims and assailants race/gender/whatever is in question??

btw..a poll taken by cbs/nyt is no different than a poll taken by fox news saying tea partiers have a 80% approval rating(made this up)....they're both biased and you're a :dunce: for quoting them as reliable sources.

the poll also has no mentioning of atheist or muslim as a favorable/unfavorable question......LOL
 
I'll put it in simple terms....

It's much harder to get in an uproar when a majority group (like Christians or Whites) experiences a rare event of discrimination/bigotry, because these majority groups are actively oppressing minority groups and have been for centuries.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'll put it in simple terms....

It's much harder to get in an uproar when a majority group (like Christians or Whites) experiences a rare event of discrimination/bigotry, because these majority groups are actively oppressing minority groups and have been for centuries.[/QUOTE]


i dont see why people should care less if a white person is the victim of a hate crime....its still hate crime, although i do agree it is much more rare.
 
[quote name='yahoosale14']:dunce: you compared a political stance(which obviously has christians, but does not exclude non christians) to two religious groups. and i dont know what im talking about?[/QUOTE]
You're absolutely right. Atheism is a religion.:roll:

Your original point about about how atheists are to religion is the same as racists to people of color is on such a level of stupidity that they can only be equal to eachother.

so....you're saying that the same act of discrimination is different depending on the victims and assailants race/gender/whatever is in question??
Click to expand...
Of course it is. Would you call a black slave that's enslaved by white people racist if the slave hated white people? Would you call a woman that makes 25% less than a man doing the same job sexist if she hated men? And of course these examples will go way over your head because you couldn't spend a minute to learn what a hegemony is or bother to understand how systemic problems affect individuals and how power is related to it.

btw..a poll taken by cbs/nyt is no different than a poll taken by fox news saying tea partiers have a 80% approval rating(made this up)....they're both biased and you're a :dunce: for quoting them as reliable sources.
Click to expand...
You should also look into what a false equivalence is too.

the poll also has no mentioning of atheist or muslim as a favorable/unfavorable question......LOL
Click to expand...
HA! It's not like there have ever been opinion polls of those groups in recent history right?

edit: You should also change your nick to StretchArmstong14. (I had this originally but got erased by accident. heh.)
 
Well, obviously if you're talking crime everyone should care.

But people aren't going to care much if some white person get's offended from being called a cracker, or loses out on a job because the person doing the hiring was black etc. Hard to care about that given how continuously the majority group has been doing such things to minority groups throughout history.

For instance, it's hard to give a shit about christians complaining about people being anti-christian, with all the work christian groups do to oppose new mosques etc. Intolerant groups get very little leeway to complain about acts of intolerance directed toward their group.

Sure, it sucks for those in the majority group who are tolerant. But c'est le vie.
 
[quote name='dohdough']You're absolutely right. Atheism is a religion.:roll:

Your original point about about how atheists are to religion is the same as racists to people of color is on such a level of stupidity that they can only be equal to eachother.


Of course it is. Would you call a black slave that's enslaved by white people racist if the slave hated white people? Would you call a woman that makes 25% less than a man doing the same job sexist if she hated men? And of course these examples will go way over your head because you couldn't spend a minute to learn what a hegemony is or bother to understand how systemic problems affect individuals and how power is related to it.


You should also look into what a false equivalence is too.


HA! It's not like there have ever been opinion polls of those groups in recent history right?

edit: You should also change your nick to StretchArmstong14. (I had this originally but got erased by accident. heh.)[/QUOTE]

i guess you need to look up the word "Crime". im talking about assault and murder...you're talking about slavery and sexism.....alright tangentman

and surprise!!! you're twisting words again. nowhere did i state atheism is a religion, but its a categorical RELIGIOUS GROUP of none,agnostic,atheist,etc
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Well, obviously if you're talking crime everyone should care.

But people aren't going to care much if some white person get's offended from being called a cracker, or loses out on a job because the person doing the hiring was black etc. Hard to care about that given how continuously the majority group has been doing such things to minority groups throughout history.

For instance, it's hard to give a shit about christians complaining about people being anti-christian, with all the work christian groups do to oppose new mosques etc. Intolerant groups get very little leeway to complain about acts of intolerance directed toward their group.

Sure, it sucks for those in the majority group who are tolerant. But c'est le vie.[/QUOTE]

talk about stereotyping....not every christian endorses herman cain's intolerance/opposition to new mosques in ground zero. not everyone in a religious group shares the same views on everything, just like every muslim isn't a terrorist.

once again, its not about being anti-christian, its twisting shit and being ignorant to not understand what is actually being said, but jumping to say "theocracy mumbo jumbo"
 
[quote name='yahoosale14']and for the LA times being liberal...LA and California are both liberal and have been for quite some time...its a fair assumption that the paper is too. are you claiming the paper is a fox news affiliate? :roll:[/QUOTE]

Oh fail. Terrible assumption.
 
[quote name='yahoosale14']i guess you need to look up the word "Crime". im talking about assault and murder...you're talking about slavery and sexism.....alright tangentman[/QUOTE]
It's almost as if I didn't even address that quote because that comment was addressed to someone that already answered it! Thanks for the invite to dogpile though.

You still didn't address your original point of atheism being the equivalent of racism. You also didn't look up hegemony or false equivalence fallacy.

Oh...and I was talking about racism, not slavery. It's right there in my post.

and surprise!!! you're twisting words again. nowhere did i state atheism is a religion, but its a categorical RELIGIOUS GROUP of none,agnostic,atheist,etc
Click to expand...
LOLZ...fine. How is atheism a religious group if they don't believe in any deities or supernatural phenomenon?

Looks like we have a christian with a persecution complex here. Is it irony? I can't tell anymore.
 
http://www.journalism.org/numbers_report/are_media_ignoring_ron_paul

chart_builder2.php
 
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