Is being in the U.S. illegally right or wrong?

C

Clak

CAGiversary!
We talk a lot about the law concerning illegal immigrants, but I want to make this more philosophical. You basically have two choices here, the objectivist standpoint, or the absolutist standpoint. Please remember this is not about the law so much, but ethics basically.

The objectivist would look at the situation, is the person here to make a better life for their self or family, or is the person here to smuggle drugs into the country or something similar.

The absolutist does not care about the situation; the law is the law, being here illegally is wrong no matter what the situation.

I think I've made my opinion clear before, I side with the objectivists.

Btw, you can also take the relativist position and say there is no objective right or wrong, you dirty fence sitters.
 
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It is wrong because they did not go through the legal process. It is wrong that these individuals can undermine our laws, take advantage of our welfare, and use a child as an anchor baby. It is also wrong that they can do all of this because they can, from proximity to our border to negligence from government/law enforcement.

However, with all this being said, we are a nation of laws. Whether or not one agrees with the law or the morality associated with them, we should either fully enforce the laws to the letter or change them.
 
black & white = wrong because it's breaking the law.

grey area = can't blame them for doing it because it is for their family. Who of us wouldn't try and better our futures for our children's sake if we were in their position. Remember over there isn't the USA, meaning its not so easy to 'just work hard and you'll get a good job and become better well off ect...' Then there are the drug dealing serial killers.....
 
its wrong, the law is the law.

are the vast majority of illegals just trying to make their lives better? sure. but that doesnt mean its good for us as a nation. we need a HUGE overhaul on immigration on everything from enforcement of existing laws, cracking down on employers and streamlining the legal immigration process. but just because our system is currently flawed doesnt mean its ok for the law to be bent as much as it is.
 
Yah, I'm not sure I see the angle where one could argue it's right. Stealing food for your family may be driven by good intentions, but it's still stealing. Being here illegally (regardless of nationality) is wrong.
 
^^^
the grey area/objectivist standpoint is myopic. You favor the strongest and craftiest (although unskilled) illegal immigrants over the weaker ones with bigger struggles and less opportunities for improvement. This basically means that the youth sneak over here and the older population there gets worse (older and limited workforce, decrease in production, products, innovation, etc.). And then again, this also favors the people who live in central or south america and doesn't help Asians or Africans who have an even worse quality of life.

Even if we took 1 million of these people every year, we would never ever help the other 99% of people who face huge problems and want better lives for themselves. (source: populations and pop. growth). THE BEST WAY to help them is let them help themselves. Seal our borders except for legal immigration, remove tariffs, and allow capitalism to pull millions out of poverty like it has done.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']its wrong, the law is the law.

are the vast majority of illegals just trying to make their lives better? sure. but that doesnt mean its good for us as a nation. we need a HUGE overhaul on immigration on everything from enforcement of existing laws, cracking down on employers and streamlining the legal immigration process. but just because our system is currently flawed doesnt mean its ok for the law to be bent as much as it is.[/QUOTE]
Again, not about the law, this is a philosophical question. We can discuss chagning laws etc.. in the other thread. I want to see how people fall in regards to how they think about issues.
 
Every time somebody says "compassioante conservative" I always remember what Robin Williams said, "Sounds like a Volvo with a gun rack".
 
[quote name='camoor']What a shock - a con circle jerk.

A thinking conservative is hard to come by. The idea of a compassionate conservative is a fucking joke.[/QUOTE]

Speaking of surprises... Your reply wasn't one.

To actually address the topic, tivo kinda touched upon it - does it really help Mexico if all of the good, hard, educated workers skip over the border, leaving the elderly, the criminals, the uneducated, etc., etc?

If we're going to have completely open borders, we might as well annex Mexico so we can take care of their entire citizenry, not just those willing/able to sneak into the US.
 
I make a typo and Strell isn't here to see it, a missed opportunity.

I should have known how quickly this thread would diverge from the question posed. Anyway, for the record I think tivo does kind of have a point. At least about needing to improve the situation of their home countries, I've said that before. The bit about capitalism pulling people out of poverty is hilarious though.
 
Can't blame the folks for being undocumented. Americans turn away when there's a need for a cheap labor force, but as soon as these workers bring in their families it gets hectic. The Mexican gov needs to make things happen too.
 
Wrong but who gives a shit? It's not their fault that sneaking in is the only real way for them to get into this country.
 
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[quote name='Clak']I should have known how quickly this thread would diverge from the question posed.[/QUOTE]

Well, you've asked a tricky question. You want people to ignore the legal aspect of the situation. However, it's hard to ignore that, considering everything that has to do with immigration is based around our legal system. Face it, the lines on a map don't typically exist in real life - if you ignore the legal aspects of it, your question boils down to is it right or wrong with standing here vs. standing five feet further north?
 
[quote name='tivo']You favor the strongest and craftiest (although unskilled) illegal immigrants over the weaker ones with bigger struggles and less opportunities for improvement. This basically means that the youth sneak over here and the older population there gets worse (older and limited workforce, decrease in production, products, innovation, etc.). And then again, this also favors the people who live in central or south america and doesn't help Asians or Africans who have an even worse quality of life.[/QUOTE]

Isn't this natural selection?
 
the question I'd like to know the answer to... in 10-20 years when US citizens are sneaking across the border into Mexico to work because our economy is shot... are they going to welcome us with open arms or chase us out at gunpoint?
 
Why the fuck do you guys still insist that illegals can take advantage of welfare?? Do you know one illegal on welfare?

Back on topic, it's wrong. But so is smoking weed, shipping jobs out to India, polluting our watersources, jaywalking, and a myriad of other things that go on everyday.
 
If I was someone in a third world country with a family to support and war raging on my doorstep, I would love nothing more than to move to America or similar. Sometimes it's impossible for these people to go through the legal process and without coming over illegally, they would be stuck where they are forever.

Where as I do agree that it is wrong that they are taking (I am British so..) British jobs from British people, I think it's important to show compassion for people that are less fortunate. If I was ruler of the Earth, I would make a whole new island where people that needed to get away from their country could go and farm their own crops to support their family, and maybe even sell some of the left overs to buy video games! But that isn't going to happen. I really can't see a solution to people migrating illegally, apart from making the country they originate from a desirable place to live in (also, not likely to happen without millions of dollars being poured on them).
 
[quote name='D_Icon']Can't blame the folks for being undocumented. Americans turn away when there's a need for a cheap labor force, but as soon as these workers bring in their families it gets hectic. The Mexican gov needs to make things happen too.[/QUOTE]

What do you mean by "make things happen". It's not like the Mexican war on drugs has been a stunning success.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Well, you've asked a tricky question. You want people to ignore the legal aspect of the situation. However, it's hard to ignore that, considering everything that has to do with immigration is based around our legal system. Face it, the lines on a map don't typically exist in real life - if you ignore the legal aspects of it, your question boils down to is it right or wrong with standing here vs. standing five feet further north?[/QUOTE]

You can lead a horse to water...

(hey I was nice, I could have gone vicious circle)
 
[quote name='depascal22']Why the fuck do you guys still insist that illegals can take advantage of welfare?? Do you know one illegal on welfare?

Back on topic, it's wrong. But so is smoking weed, shipping jobs out to India, polluting our watersources, jaywalking, and a myriad of other things that go on everyday.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='RAMSTORIA']http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-me-illegal-welfare-20100906,0,3446997.story[/QUOTE]

Boom. Roasted. :applause:

P.S. jaywalking, smoking, and shipping jobs overseas aren't morally wrong (I'd love to hear your argument). The first two aren't even universal laws. Laws against jaywalking and smoking are just man created laws that we should either repeal/change or enforce with the fullest extent and zeal.
 
[quote name='tivo']Laws against jaywalking and smoking are just man created laws that we should either repeal/change or enforce with the fullest extent and zeal.[/QUOTE]

That's different from every other law how?
 
you're right. they aren't different from many other laws except for perhaps the gravity of transgression.
 
How can you ask if breaking the law is wrong and then say to ignore the law? That's not a fair question. I think you're trying to ask whether or not the people who crossed the border illegally are committing a nefarious act. If they are in this country to further break the law or harm other people, then yes. If they are here to work hard for well earned pay, especially to help their families, then no.

I'd be willing to bet that everyone has broken the law at one point in their life. It could simply be a matter of breaking the speed limit or jay-walking. That doesn't mean they're a morally corrupt individual. I don't think you can make a sweeping conclusion of a people's moral character simply based on legal status.
 
[quote name='tivo']Boom. Roasted. :applause:

P.S. jaywalking, smoking, and shipping jobs overseas aren't morally wrong (I'd love to hear your argument). The first two aren't even universal laws. Laws against jaywalking and smoking are just man created laws that we should either repeal/change or enforce with the fullest extent and zeal.[/QUOTE]

Roasted how? Those payments are going to the welfare of a fellow US citizen... Oh that's right. You don't think people born in this country are US citizens so it's OK to let them starve. Hell, I'd bet that you'd even let fellow US citizens starve just because you're a fucking dick.

If a illegal family comes in, how do they get on welfare? Please tell me how an individual that doesn't have children gets on welfare...
 
Its wrong because then they add even more costs to taxpayers. I don't want to see different kind of taxes rise because i have to contribute to and illegal aliens health plan.

To me the biggest wrong ever is someone who employs an illegal alien just for the cheap labor the employer should lose any business license him/her has.

On the side of morals though its easy to understand the situation but when i have to get involved in it unwilling that's a problem the law needs to fix by getting involved a example is raising my taxes. There are just to many wrong things to name and that's why its part of the legal system and trying to be corrected and worked on.

What needs to happen is Countries need to develop their own empire and stop getting jealous of the next country because they have more natural resources then the next country.
 
[quote name='needler420']Its wrong because then they add even more costs to taxpayers. I don't want to see different kind of taxes rise because i have to contribute to and illegal aliens health plan.

To me the biggest wrong ever is someone who employs an illegal alien just for the cheap labor the employer should lose any business license him/her has.[/QUOTE]

What health plan are they on? If anything the hospital pays for it out of pocket. Guess what, many US citizens don't pay for their health care either. You think ghetto or trailer park fools pay for their ER visits?
 
[quote name='depascal22']What health plan are they on? If anything the hospital pays for it out of pocket. Guess what, many US citizens don't pay for their health care either. You think ghetto or trailer park fools pay for their ER visits?[/QUOTE]

I'M SICK OF THESE GODDAMN ILL-LEGAL ALE-EANS COMING INTO OUR COUNTRY, USING ALL OF OUR SERVICES AND EXPECTING ME TO PAY FOR THEM *has 3+ kids with no health insurance* */GOP*
 
[quote name='tivo']smoking, and shipping jobs overseas aren't morally wrong (I'd love to hear your argument).[/QUOTE]

Is smoking while pregnant morally wrong? Is smoking next to non-smokers morally wrong?
 
And I love the gravity of transgression bullshit... The right's whole argument is that immigration is illegal period and now we get to the root. There are levels of transgression depending on the white man's sensitivity. You should be able to smoke a cigarette at a crowded bus stop full of people but I can't smoke a joint in the privacy of my own home. The levels of transgression demand that I be treated like a criminal while you're just a nuisance right?

Ah, never mind. You guys have no real morals anyway. It's all about your freedom and when we ask for ours, we're told it's illegal and that's that.
 
[quote name='depascal22']What health plan are they on? If anything the hospital pays for it out of pocket. Guess what, many US citizens don't pay for their health care either. You think ghetto or trailer park fools pay for their ER visits?[/QUOTE]

Gasp! America has problems too?!?!?! but sure wave more illegal government dependency on in, and increase the problems we already have. We can take it all on! 1 wrong + 1 wrong = its ok. I love that formula.

Oh and my opinion is obviously that it is plain and simply wrong. I am fairly certain there are people on that waiting list still waiting BECAUSE of illegal immigration. But who cares about their right to make something of their lives, they are only following the law.
 
Wrong.

I wish I could say that anyone should be allowed to come here and try to make a life for themslves blah blah blah regardless of legal status because were human beings.

But that isnt the case. Being an illegal immigrant more or less spells it out for you, it has the word illegal in it. And illegal immigrants shouldnt be allowed in this country when this country cant even take care of its legal immigrants and US citizens. Exceptions should not be made at the expense of our own citizens. We waste so much money giving healthcare to illegal immigrants that go to the hospital, we waste so much money "trying" to find them and deport them and states lose alot of money by them working the systems that its kind of sad.

The problem comes from though no one wants to do anything about it because were a country of pussies. Unless your a terrorist then the government doesnt want to touch you because it might look bad on them. Well this country needs to toughen the hell up and make those hard choices. Sure kicking a bunch of poor illegal immigrants out isnt fun and doesnt look good on tv but you know what? If we cant take care of our poor citizens then we dont need more clogging up the works. We need to take care of our own people first and then worry about other people.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I am fairly certain there are people on that waiting list still waiting BECAUSE of illegal immigration. But who cares about their right to make something of their lives, they are only following the law.[/QUOTE]

[citation needed]

[quote name='gargus']we waste so much money "trying" to find them and deport them

(...)

Well this country needs to toughen the hell up and make those hard choices. Sure kicking a bunch of poor illegal immigrants out isnt fun and doesnt look good on tv but you know what? If we cant take care of our poor citizens then we dont need more clogging up the works. We need to take care of our own people first and then worry about other people.[/QUOTE]

So...we waste so much money trying to find them and deport them but we need to toughen up, find them and deport them?
 
Without the law being a factor it is still wrong. The people that want to come to this country because they are looking for a better life and job if unmetered will always fail in the end. At some point the influx of people will overwhelm the resources. The place they are fleeing will be the same as the place they are running to. Immigration is setup to allow only people who can offer something to the society they are trying to enter.

The US is full of people who need jobs, why do we need more people with a lower skill set to compete for those same jobs?
 
[quote name='Sporadic'][citation needed]



So...we waste so much money trying to find them and deport them but we need to toughen up, find them and deport them?[/QUOTE]

Secure the border. I am sure it would do something to not allow illegal immigrants to walk across the border.

You need citation to believe that if there was less illegal immigration, more legal immigration would be allowed? The limits and waiting lists on mexican legal immigration is citation enough I would say. The waiting time for Mexicans or latin americans is not a lifetime because we prefer other nationalities, it is because so many mexicans or latin americans already do it illegally.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Is smoking while pregnant morally wrong? Is smoking next to non-smokers morally wrong?[/QUOTE]

Yes, but that's because it infringes upon another's rights (and therefore should be a law). Smoking in itself isn't morally wrong. Smoking in excess is a vice tho.

[quote name='depascal22']And I love the gravity of transgression bullshit... The right's whole argument is that immigration is illegal period and now we get to the root. There are levels of transgression depending on the white man's sensitivity. You should be able to smoke a cigarette at a crowded bus stop full of people but I can't smoke a joint in the privacy of my own home. The levels of transgression demand that I be treated like a criminal while you're just a nuisance right?

Ah, never mind. You guys have no real morals anyway. It's all about your freedom and when we ask for ours, we're told it's illegal and that's that.[/QUOTE]

Illegal immigration is illegal by definition. period. You can't disagree or disregard this. And as I've said before, we are a nation of laws and therefore we should either enforce all laws to the fullest or change them. Concerning illegal immigration, the fullest means closing the pores in the border, shutting down sanctuary cities, and using ICE to deport illegals when we find them. You and other's want lax laws but this leads to so many other problems. Instead of undermining the law, peacefully petition and vote. State your opinion reasonably, have a discussion and then we all can make a decision. Until then, people should follow the law and the government should enforce it 100%. The government hasn't. They have even tried to bar Arizona's efforts to enforce the law. Federal gov's hegemony over state government is wrong.

As a libertarian, people should be able to do whatever they like as long as it doesn't infringe upon another's rights. Freedom should be our utmost concern, both socially and economically. The left doesn't get economic freedom. Brainless. The right doesn't fulfill social freedoms. Heartless. A smaller government would solve this. But this is all tangential to the current discussion of illegal immigration. (kudos).

P.S. Why have you been brining up "the white man" in your rationale.
 
[quote name='Knoell']You need citation to believe that if there was less illegal immigration, more legal immigration would be allowed? The limits and waiting lists on mexican legal immigration is citation enough I would say. The waiting time for Mexicans or latin americans is not a lifetime because we prefer other nationalities, it is because so many mexicans or latin americans already do it illegally.[/QUOTE]

Yes, I need a citation on that because it sounds like horseshit.

[quote name='iwannadie']The US is full of people who need jobs, why do we need more people with a lower skill set to compete for those same jobs?[/QUOTE]

Let's not kid ourselves, the jobs these illegal aliens are taking aren't ones Americans want to do. It's hard work for low pay.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Yes, I need a citation on that because it sounds like horseshit.



Let's not kid ourselves, the jobs these illegal aliens are taking aren't ones Americans want to do. It's hard work for low pay.[/QUOTE]

That's always the go-to excuse, jobs americans don't want.

Guess what the majority of the jobs people have they don't want. If companies were unable to pay illegals off the books and below the minimum wage they would be forced to pay a fair wage. People would take those jobs if they paid fair. It's hard to take a job scrubbing toilets for 5 bucks an hour because that's what they can pay an illegal to do it for. If it paid more and allowed someone to pay their bills then suddenly it's not so bad of a job.

Besides all of that, I know plenty of people in the construction industry who loose jobs to illegals. Construction is a job american certainly want. Just which jobs are americans turning their noses up at in your opinion?
 
[quote name='iwannadie']Besides all of that, I know plenty of people in the construction industry who loose jobs to illegals. Construction is a job american certainly want. Just which jobs are americans turning their noses up at in your opinion?[/QUOTE]

Cleaning up people's shit, picking strawberries in 100 degree weather, watching rich people's bratty undisciplined kids, roofing, painting, digging ditches, stuff like that.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Cleaning up people's shit, picking strawberries in 100 degree weather, watching rich people's bratty undisciplined kids, roofing, painting, digging ditches, stuff like that.[/QUOTE]

Wow I wonder how this country got along before illegal mexicans started to come across the border. I guess we never had strawberries or roofs over our unsupervised children.

Do you honestly believe there's american men who would not do a roofing job? Those jobs are manual labor and are hard jobs but they sound pretty dam american to me. This country was built with those types of jobs. Now suddenly you claim americans are too good for hard work? Ask someone at mcdonalds if they would rather be doing roofing and learning a trade or asking if you want fries with that.

Where is everyone supposed to work? All the IT jobs have gone over seas, car manufactures over seas, the financial industry is a joke right now, real estate is a disaster, retails sucks because no one is spending money.

That leaves manual labor jobs but the illegals have that market cornered. One of the few industries we can't export we some how managed to import workers rather than employee americans. I don't think it's a case of americans not wanting those types of jobs as much as it is they are unable to live off the wages paid for them. The hiring company can choose to pay an illegal immigrant 20 bucks a day off the books. An actual citizen can't survive on 20 bucks a day so they are unable to take the job. If hiring an illegal were not an option the hiring company would have to pay a fair wage and people would be lining up to scrub toilets to get off welfare.

I'm glad I have a good job with a union and my job is not at risk(for now). I hope you have a nice career setup in something that's not to physically challenging on you.
 
In Britain, there are very few British builders due to the fact that every builder is foreign and will do the same work for a fraction of the price (and yes, being a builder is a desirable job). I personally think that every British person should have a secure job, and only when that is done, jobs are given out to foreigners.
 
[quote name='iwannadie']Wow I wonder how this country got along before illegal mexicans started to come across the border. I guess we never had strawberries or roofs over our unsupervised children.

Do you honestly believe there's american men who would not do a roofing job? Those jobs are manual labor and are hard jobs but they sound pretty dam american to me. This country was built with those types of jobs. Now suddenly you claim americans are too good for hard work? Ask someone at mcdonalds if they would rather be doing roofing and learning a trade or asking if you want fries with that.

Where is everyone supposed to work? All the IT jobs have gone over seas, car manufactures over seas, the financial industry is a joke right now, real estate is a disaster, retails sucks because no one is spending money.

That leaves manual labor jobs but the illegals have that market cornered. One of the few industries we can't export we some how managed to import workers rather than employee americans. I don't think it's a case of americans not wanting those types of jobs as much as it is they are unable to live off the wages paid for them. The hiring company can choose to pay an illegal immigrant 20 bucks a day off the books. An actual citizen can't survive on 20 bucks a day so they are unable to take the job. If hiring an illegal were not an option the hiring company would have to pay a fair wage and people would be lining up to scrub toilets to get off welfare.

I'm glad I have a good job with a union and my job is not at risk(for now). I hope you have a nice career setup in something that's not to physically challenging on you.[/QUOTE]

Then why aren't there any Americans out at Lowe's at 5am? That's where the jobs are. It's not a big secret.

I used to run a headhunting firm. The most frustrating people were the ones that were already at a certain level and wouldn't budge on taking a "demotion" even if it meant sitting on unemployment for another month or two. Even when they got desperate, they wouldn't even consider retail or manaul labor. One guy even laughed at me and hung up. He never called back again. So please tell me how Americans are just falling all over themselves to work hard manual labor for minimum wage at best.

That being said, I do agree with you that we should crack down on businesses that hire illegals. It would help solve some of the problem.
 
[quote name='iwannadie']Wow I wonder how this country got along before illegal mexicans started to come across the border. I guess we never had strawberries or roofs over our unsupervised children.[/QUOTE]
Ummm...cheap labor from the very poor and legal/illegal immigrants through the different eras pretty much fulfilled that role.

Do you honestly believe there's american men who would not do a roofing job? Those jobs are manual labor and are hard jobs but they sound pretty dam american to me. This country was built with those types of jobs. Now suddenly you claim americans are too good for hard work? Ask someone at mcdonalds if they would rather be doing roofing and learning a trade or asking if you want fries with that.
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Damn right it was built on those jobs. Too bad that it was both virtual and literal slavery that performed those jobs.

Where is everyone supposed to work? All the IT jobs have gone over seas, car manufactures over seas, the financial industry is a joke right now, real estate is a disaster, retails sucks because no one is spending money.

That leaves manual labor jobs but the illegals have that market cornered. One of the few industries we can't export we some how managed to import workers rather than employee americans. I don't think it's a case of americans not wanting those types of jobs as much as it is they are unable to live off the wages paid for them. The hiring company can choose to pay an illegal immigrant 20 bucks a day off the books. An actual citizen can't survive on 20 bucks a day so they are unable to take the job. If hiring an illegal were not an option the hiring company would have to pay a fair wage and people would be lining up to scrub toilets to get off welfare.

I'm glad I have a good job with a union and my job is not at risk(for now). I hope you have a nice career setup in something that's not to physically challenging on you.
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I see a lot of blame on the laborers and not the employers in this. Considering you're in a union, you should know better.
 
[quote name='iwannadie']If hiring an illegal were not an option the hiring company would have to pay a fair wage and people would be lining up to scrub toilets to get off welfare. [/QUOTE]

LOL x 1000000000

Your expectation of what most Americans would do is way off base.

I've worked construction and I've dug trenches in 90+ degree weather. Yes, most American men wouldn't (if there was still a demand for them - when the housing bubble popped, most jobs of that nature [construction] dried up) take those jobs unless there was no other choice. It's very hard work for close to minimum wage.
 
[quote name='iwannadie']Wow I wonder how this country got along before illegal mexicans started to come across the border. I guess we never had strawberries or roofs over our unsupervised children.

[/QUOTE]

Lets see the railroads would never be completed without Chinese and Irish immigrants who would take the job.

Many of the farmland in California would still be undeveloped if not for immigrants.
 
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