Is Flipping Wrong?

I don't care when people buy things to resell, it just makes me furious when they CLEAR OUT A PLACE COMPLETELY (see TRU or CC sales or BB penny guides).

If you want to fuck Wal-Mart or buy 2 copies of a game (one to keep one to sell) that's fine with me, but please leave something on the shelf for the rest of us to buy please.
 
Always nice to see a thread where one side is making intelligent arguments and the other side is saying "fuck this company" and "fuck that company".

I know which side I'm behind. ;) Please, continue with the lopsided arguments :applause:
 
I've thought about this issue for a while and, morals aside, I'm not sure if there is anything illegal about the "Wal-mart scam" especially if you don't lie to anyone in the process (and even that's iffy). Their own return policy accept returns from items not bought at the store (or at least that was the policy in 2002 after discussing it at length with a manager there). Not just on items not bought there that they carry but on ALL ITEMS whether they carry it or not (they find a comparable product that they do carry for pricing - also, the item has to be within reason - for example it has to be something they would ordinarily stock). This policy implicitly states that they do not care where the item comes from - they will give store credit for it. They know full well before they enter into the return "transaction" that the item could have come from anywhere and as long as you own it legally, there's nothing wrong with "selling" it back to them for whatever they deem as a fair price.

I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty but it is another way of looking at it. A strong case can be made for fraud, but I would argue that the "lie" of where the item was originally purchased is immaterial to the transaction based on their store policy. Wal-mart is too big to care about this. If enough people did it, you can bet they would change their policy though...
 
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']

And I really don't see how it's relevant whether store is Walmart, Best Buy, or a mom and pop shop. Just because you don't believe in a company's corporate structure and policies doesn't make it right to break the law in their store. It's not okay to steal or commit fraud in ANY store. I'm not going to pocket candies from Walmart because they can afford it or because they pay less than minimal wage or whatever.[/QUOTE]


:applause:
 
[quote name='javeryh']I've thought about this issue for a while and, morals aside, I'm not sure if there is anything illegal about the "Wal-mart scam" especially if you don't lie to anyone in the process (and even that's iffy). Their own return policy accept returns from items not bought at the store (or at least that was the policy in 2002 after discussing it at length with a manager there). Not just on items not bought there that they carry but on ALL ITEMS whether they carry it or not (they find a comparable product that they do carry for pricing - also, the item has to be within reason - for example it has to be something they would ordinarily stock). This policy implicitly states that they do not care where the item comes from - they will give store credit for it. They know full well before they enter into the return "transaction" that the item could have come from anywhere and as long as you own it legally, there's nothing wrong with "selling" it back to them for whatever they deem as a fair price.

I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty but it is another way of looking at it. A strong case can be made for fraud, but I would argue that the "lie" of where the item was originally purchased is immaterial to the transaction based on their store policy. Wal-mart is too big to care about this. If enough people did it, you can bet they would change their policy though...[/QUOTE]
Leave it to the lawyer to make it clearer. :D

Though, if this happens enough times, they will change their policy, and they're starting to do so, since I remember reading that they're working to have only 3 "no-receipt" refunds happen in a six month period. Should be 0, IMHO, though there's enough dumb people out there (myself included) that forget receipts that should be allowed to slide once. And only once.
 
[quote name='shrike4242']Leave it to the lawyer to make it clearer. :D

Though, if this happens enough times, they will change their policy, and they're starting to do so, since I remember reading that they're working to have only 3 "no-receipt" refunds happen in a six month period. Should be 0, IMHO, though there's enough dumb people out there (myself included) that forget receipts that should be allowed to slide once. And only once.[/QUOTE]

yeah, I certainly wouldn't want to have to argue the case in front of a judge or anything because it certainly sounds like shady behavior. It's just that until a court has come down on the issue I don't think anyone can say as a 100% certainty that it is illegal. Until that time, there's always an argument to be made...

About their store policy, they probably view the amount of people who take advantage of the system as low compared to the amount of unhappy customers and additional lost business that would occur if they were to ban returns without a receipt outright. In a lot of towns in the middle of the country, Wal-Mart is the place to shop for everything...
 
[quote name='javeryh']I've thought about this issue for a while and, morals aside, I'm not sure if there is anything illegal about the "Wal-mart scam" especially if you don't lie to anyone in the process (and even that's iffy). Their own return policy accept returns from items not bought at the store (or at least that was the policy in 2002 after discussing it at length with a manager there). Not just on items not bought there that they carry but on ALL ITEMS whether they carry it or not (they find a comparable product that they do carry for pricing - also, the item has to be within reason - for example it has to be something they would ordinarily stock). This policy implicitly states that they do not care where the item comes from - they will give store credit for it. They know full well before they enter into the return "transaction" that the item could have come from anywhere and as long as you own it legally, there's nothing wrong with "selling" it back to them for whatever they deem as a fair price.

I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty but it is another way of looking at it. A strong case can be made for fraud, but I would argue that the "lie" of where the item was originally purchased is immaterial to the transaction based on their store policy. Wal-mart is too big to care about this. If enough people did it, you can bet they would change their policy though...[/QUOTE]

I think that would be an effective argument, javeryh.
However, I think intent would come into play in such an examination.
Though, I have a feeling a store would reject returns from a person long before they'd even chance it on the legal system, given the murkiness of the topic.
 
What should be illegal is how you get treated for 'fliping' you get treated like you stole something .

Concidering how much they sell for these games ARE THEY EVEN LOSING ANY PROFIT????

I tell you what if they sold the game like 5 dollars more than what they give you used price then id say its wrong but if they wanna have crazy prices that are unfair and WRONG.

Then they deserve people legaly working there trade in deals..

Blockbuster should apologize to anyone who was banned for 'flipping' .


You got fucking adults that work at blockbuster giving 14 year old kids a hard time for 'flipping' stand back and see it for what it is an adult picking on a child cause the child wants to change there games in THAT ARE WORTH MORE THAN WHAT THERE GETTING ATLEAST IN BLOCKBUSTERS PRICING.

They give you like a dollar for some of these games they sell for 8 dollars yet were crooks???????

WHAT ABOUT SPORTS GAMES? HOW CAN YOU SELL A GAME FOR 50 BUCKS THEN TURN AROUND AND ONLY BUY IT BACK FOR LIKE 4 DOLLARS LESS THAN A YEAR???

HOW ABOUT EXCLUDING ALLS PORT TITLES FROM THERE TRADE IN DEALS IF YOUR GONNA DO THAT EXCLUDE SELLING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ASSHOLES YOUR RIPPING OFF LIL KIDS THAT WANNA PICK UP THAT LATEST HOCKEY OR BASEBALL GAME.
 
[quote name='Skelah']What should be illegal is how you get treated for 'fliping' you get treated like you stole something .

Concidering how much they sell for these games ARE THEY EVEN LOSING ANY PROFIT????

I tell you what if they sold the game like 5 dollars more than what they give you used price then id say its wrong but if they wanna have crazy prices that are unfair and WRONG.

Then they deserve people legaly working there trade in deals..

Blockbuster should apologize to anyone who was banned for 'flipping' .


You got fucking adults that work at blockbuster giving 14 year old kids a hard time for 'flipping' stand back and see it for what it is an adult picking on a child cause the child wants to change there games in THAT ARE WORTH MORE THAN WHAT THERE GETTING ATLEAST IN BLOCKBUSTERS PRICING.

They give you like a dollar for some of these games they sell for 8 dollars yet were crooks???????

WHAT ABOUT SPORTS GAMES? HOW CAN YOU SELL A GAME FOR 50 BUCKS THEN TURN AROUND AND ONLY BUY IT BACK FOR LIKE 4 DOLLARS LESS THAN A YEAR???

HOW ABOUT EXCLUDING ALLS PORT TITLES FROM THERE TRADE IN DEALS IF YOUR GONNA DO THAT EXCLUDE SELLING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ASSHOLES YOUR RIPPING OFF LIL KIDS THAT WANNA PICK UP THAT LATEST HOCKEY OR BASEBALL GAME.[/QUOTE]

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?!
 
[quote name='JSweeney']I think that would be an effective argument, javeryh.
However, I think intent would come into play in such an examination.
Though, I have a feeling a store would reject returns from a person long before they'd even chance it on the legal system, given the murkiness of the topic.[/QUOTE]

I think at the end of the day it would be very difficult to convince a court that this type of activity would be legal. I don't know if intent would come into play though because there are tons of crimes you can commit where your intent is irrelevant - felony-murder being the biggest (for example you light your house on fire to collect the insurance not knowing that someone was inside - no intent to kill but you are getting charged and convicted of murder nonetheless).

I do agree that in our situation intent makes all the difference in the world though - it's hard to charge grandma with a crime for forgetting where she bought Halo not knowing everyone already owns it and returning it to Walmart just because they will take a return without a receipt. It's quite different from you or I trying to make money off "the system" even though the result is the same as when grandma does it. This is why I think intent should matter but it doesn't - at the end of the day it's almost impossible to prove. I really don't know the answer...
 
I hate to revisit this thread, but i just got a copy of wrestlemania XXI at the TRU sale that I could flip at walmart for an easy $45. My thoughts are this, both myself and walmart are profiting by this.

For example:

Walmart.................Me

....$0 .................. -$10................. After purchasing the WWE game from TRU
..-$45 .................+$35 .................After flipping the game to walmart
....$0 ...................STUFF............... After me using my walmart gift card
..+$45................ STUFF................ Walmart sells the WWE game to someone else

So, in the end, walmart gets $45, $30 of which is probably profit, and I have stuff that I want or need. So, it seems to be that walmart should encourage flipping, not discourage against it.
 
[quote name='briansraregames']I hate to revisit this thread, but i just got a copy of wrestlemania XXI at the TRU sale that I could flip at walmart for an east $45. My thoughts are this, both myself and walmart are profiting by this.

For example:

Walmart Me

$0 -$10 After purchasing the WWE game from TRU
-$45 +$35 After flipping the game to walmart
$0 STUFF After me using my walmart gift card
+$45 STUFF Walmart sells the WWE game to someone else

So, in the end, walmart gets $45, $30 of which is probably profit, and I have stuff that I want or need. So, it seems to be that walmart should encourage flipping, not discourage against it.[/QUOTE]

Stop trying to bullshit yourself.
If you're going to try to rip them off, at least have the stones to admit it.
The margin on videogames is nowhere near as huge as people assume it is... especially with the huge, huge profit centers that Walmart stocks that are almost pure profit.
 
I disagree, since i'm forced to buy other higher margin products at their store, whatever they get for that video game is ALL profit. They make the same either way. I compare it to what I do at my store, I acept all national retail store gift cards as cash on my merchandise. My profits are so high that I'll take a $100 gift card instead of cash, that's fine by me, i can use it or sell it. I still make money, it's just in a different medium.
 
[quote name='briansraregames']i'm forced to buy other higher margin products at their store[/QUOTE]
Shut the fuck up. You lie, and you do so badly.

Look, I like to kick cripples in their fucking ankles. I don't try to make myself feel better about it by asking other people about it ("Well, it doesn't hurt since their nervous system doesn't work"; "They weren't going to a dance competition anyway"; "I wanted to help them sit down"). You're probably going to be a twat about it and go flip the game, so shut the hell up and go be a twat already; don't come here looking for vindication. Go to church, blow a priest, and you'll find salvation there.
 
I'll buy games cheap at places and trade them in for more credit elsewhere because it really adds up after awhile so much so that I'll gain usually enough credit for a BRAND NEW $50 game for free once every 1-2months.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Look, I like to kick cripples in their fucking ankles. I don't try to make myself feel better about it by asking other people about it ("Well, it doesn't hurt since their nervous system doesn't work"; "They weren't going to a dance competition anyway"; "I wanted to help them sit down"). You're probably going to be a twat about it and go flip the game, so shut the hell up and go be a twat already; don't come here looking for vindication. Go to church, blow a priest, and you'll find salvation there.[/QUOTE]

So you're comparing the most powerful retail store in the world to a "cripple?" WTF are you smoking/drinking/snorting/shooting? You must be a stockholder. Oh, and by the way, I don't seek vindication, I've been doing this for years and have no problem with it, besides I'm a little too old for most priests anyway.
 
I can't agree it's right, but sticking it to WalMart is alright in my book.

My only complaint is when you get a $10 game from TRU to return it/trade it in for profit, you fuck the little guy over who wanted it, and force him to get it for a higher price. Sure, it's his fault for not getting there before you but it if you trade it in it adds to the EB/Gamestop/eBay machine.
 
[quote name='TimPV3']I can't agree it's right, but sticking it to WalMart is alright in my book.

My only complaint is when you get a $10 game from TRU to return it/trade it in for profit, you fuck the little guy over who wanted it, and force him to get it for a higher price.[/QUOTE]

Good point.
 
[quote name='briansraregames']I hate to revisit this thread, but i just got a copy of wrestlemania XXI at the TRU sale that I could flip at walmart for an easy $45. My thoughts are this, both myself and walmart are profiting by this.

For example:

Walmart.................Me

....$0 .................. -$10................. After purchasing the WWE game from TRU
..-$45 .................+$35 .................After flipping the game to walmart
....$0 ...................STUFF............... After me using my walmart gift card
..+$45................ STUFF................ Walmart sells the WWE game to someone else

So, in the end, walmart gets $45, $30 of which is probably profit, and I have stuff that I want or need. So, it seems to be that walmart should encourage flipping, not discourage against it.[/QUOTE]

I think you're grossly overestimating profit margins. $30 profit from a $45 sale? I don't think so. At best, Walmart gets pennies on the dollar. Walmart gets rich on the volume of products it sells, not large profit margins. And how did Walmart go from -$45 to $0 after you used your giftcard? To do that, you would have had to buy enough items to generate $45 in profit for the store, which means you would have had to purchase at least several hundred dollars worth of items, which isn't likely. Plus, you're also assuming that Wal-mart can ship the unsold copy of Wrestlmania XX1 (the one it would have sold had you not "returned" a second copy) back to the distributor for the same price it paid. That doesn't happen either. If it did, we would never have clearance sales, like the $5 CC or recent TRU sales. If stores could ship poor selling items back to the distributors for full price, why would they lose their "shirts" by clearancing them for $5-10?
 
[quote name='anonymouswhoami']I think you grossly overestimating profit margins. $30 profit from a $45 sale? I don't think so. At best, Walmart gets pennies on the dollar. Walmart gets rich on the volume of products it sells, not large profit margins. And how did Walmart go from -$45 to $0 after you used your giftcard? To do that, you would have had to buy enough items to generate $45 in profit for the store, which means you would have had to purchase at least several hundred dollars worth of items, which isn't likely.[/QUOTE]

I'm no economist, that is painfully obvious. Since the card is same as cash in the store, substitute cash for the gift card and it makes sense to me. I'm not really accounting for cost in my calculations i guess. So you're probably right. They're probably making $15 or so on the deal and not $45, depending on how much they have into the items that I'd get with my card, which is the same that they'd be getting anyway. I guess that this all rests on their ability to resell the game that I bring in for the same amount that they give me. If that decreases, then i can see how they'd lose out.
 
My favorite part about this entire thread is that the OP asks a question, perhaps seeking debate? No, they already voice their opinion in the title, obviously not wanting debate or discussion.

Hilarious.

But seriously, do whatever makes you happy. If scamming a huge company gives you a hard-on...go for it. If trying to change someone's opinion of an act you view as immoral does the same, go for it.

Have fun.

Oh yeah, +1.
 
[quote name='briansraregames']I hate to revisit this thread, but i just got a copy of wrestlemania XXI at the TRU sale that I could flip at walmart for an easy $45. My thoughts are this, both myself and walmart are profiting by this.

For example:

Walmart.................Me

....$0 .................. -$10................. After purchasing the WWE game from TRU
..-$45 .................+$35 .................After flipping the game to walmart
..-$45 ...................STUFF............... After me using my walmart gift card
....$0................ STUFF................ Walmart sells the WWE game to someone else

[/QUOTE]

I fixed your math to account for the fact that Walmart is out the value of whatever you bought with that gift card (possibly less depending on product margins, but we'll say you bought another video game, for argument's sake). Also, the $0 total assumes Walmart can move a WWE game at $45 that was just clearanced for $10 somewhere else.
 
We should let Phoenix Wright handle this.

Seriously though, flipping (buying low, trading in high) may seem immoral (personal opinion), but it's no illegal.

Buying elsewhere and returning to Wal-Mart, most people are saying it's a scam, but if it is, why is the policy there and why do you ask to see your driver's license?
 
[quote name='sarausagi']And I don't do it for video games, the less I can spend on video games, the more I can spend on fashion = D

clothesareagirlsbestfriend.

I like video games too though.

If you like being the CA part of CAG though, getting clothes discounted is incredible fun. $25 off $40 coupons at Fashion Bug, 75% off Torrid, and Dillard's clearances. Four pairs of jeans for the price of one, yayies! And Ross is like a black friday sale for discontinued designer clothing every day of the week.[/QUOTE]

i'm a guy and i love ross.. cheap NBA/NFL jerseys.. and definately great to look through to find some cool stuff in from time to time..
 
[quote name='briansraregames']So you're comparing the most powerful retail store in the world to a "cripple?" WTF are you smoking/drinking/snorting/shooting? You must be a stockholder. Oh, and by the way, I don't seek vindication, I've been doing this for years and have no problem with it, besides I'm a little too old for most priests anyway.[/QUOTE]
No, I hate Wal-Mart as much as any good, American bleeding heart liberal should. That's why I don't shop there (lucky I'm not *forced* like you are, :rofl: ). I don't flip there, either. Just because I don't like a place, that doesn't mean I want to change my scruples about flipping. I don't like it at any store. Including Wal-Mart.

As far as "cripples," I recommend several years of reading comprehension for you, even if you're too old for a priest. You evidently missed my very lucid point that, if you're dumb enough to do something widely condemned on this site, and something whose legality is easily contended, don't act like you're saving the fucking planet from the corporate behemoth that is Wal-Mart because you have the stones to return a $10 for a brand-new, $50 game. Just admit you're being a selfish fucking pig and be done with it. The point is this: drop your pretenses, and just admit you're a piece of selfish shit. That's all, boy-o. Can't be that hard to consider, can it?
 
[quote name='rajchakrabarti']on another note...... while people say its illegeal .... so whats the actual penalty for getting caught ?[/QUOTE]

I think it varies by state. Where I live, it would depend on how much it's done, but unless you form a group to clear out dollar stores and return product at higher cost retailers, plus flipping clearance merch as non-clearance elsewhere, you'd probably only be looking at a misdemeanor; I don't see how you'd do enough volume for anything more serious. Restitution and maybe community service, jail time is HIGHLY unlikely unless you didn't make restitution.

Anybody know specific precedents on this?
 
[quote name='bowmanarmy']I think it is wrong just because you are hurting the stores that provide you with good deals year round. People who rack up credit on this are just bitches.[/QUOTE]

but what if it isn't from the store that brought you the deal and you were just using an ad from another store to pick up the game hella cheap then return it no reciept to stick it to the store for full credit? is that bad? HELL NO it's called hustling! People do this all the time, drugs, girls, guns, games, whatever. I mean seriously, what is the difference in me picking up 3 copies of psychonaunts from tru, keeping one and flipping the other two at gamerush for 24 a piece when gamestop/ebgames were only offereing 9 each? Is there something immoral in that? nope, if you think there is, then you need to look into your soul and kill whever is telling you that and get on with you life!
 
the only time I have ever heard of anyone get in trouble for return fraud is when they print out UPC codes for cheap items, put em on more expensive items, buy the expensive items at the cheap price, and then try to return the expensive items without a receipt. The problem with this is that inventory will appear as though there is a theft (and rightfully so). As I recall, last year a group of people got caught for this after scamming Wal-mart hundreds of thousands of dollars.
 
[quote name='jennie25']HELL NO it's called hustling! People do this all the time, drugs, girls, guns, games, whatever.[/QUOTE]

For reals, my homeslice. Me? I just sell tha rock to mah holmez, and then I go to da 'Mart and buy da three-sitty. And a case of docta' thunda. Word life.
 
[quote name='sarausagi']Wal-Mart Scam? I wouldn't call it scam: other "normal" customers scam Wal-Mart a lot more than "flippers" do. Check the customer service office everyday at any Wal-Mart, you'll see ladies bringing back used bras, used underwear, used shoes, also, lots of bed/bath items or even make up. No one calls them out, even though they're not only 'scamming" Wal-Mart but creating lots of health hazards, especially with the lingerie and make up.

Considering the price that Wal-Mart pays for game through their vendors, the price they sell for worldwide, and what they do with returns, they're making as much as a profit as you are. If you buy a X-Men Legends II for $29.99, return it for $49.99, what really happens?

A. Wal-Mart shelves it, sells it, and makes profit without even having bought that unit.

B. Wal-Mart returns it as defective, receives a full credit for what they refunded you.

C. Wal-Mart sells it overseas or across the border, for a higher price: video games in Canada and Mexico are -much- more expensive, especially new releases.

D. Wal-Mart lost a little, but you did use the credit to buy from them, broke even, and maybe you bought some merchandise out of your own pocket while you were there.

The Blockbuster scam though? It's purely legal. They offer trade in credit for games. If a little boy or girl bought a copy of Finny The Fish or whatever those games used for the scam were, and then by accident her uncle got her one, and she took it in to Blockbuster with her mom, and got $50 credit, it's not a scam: it's perfectly legal. What's the difference between an individual legally obtaining 20 copies of the said game, then going to Blockbuster and doing the same? Trade limit per day? If he honors that limit, each day he can do it again and again.

Unless you stole the games, and then flipped them to obtain something legally, it's not wrong. Theft is wrong, working around the system while still working WITH THE SYSTEM isn't.

These scams are pointless though, low price guarantee at Fry's, now that's a way to make some money. In the past month, I've price matched them on their OWN prices, gotten refunds based on competitor advertisment, qualified for mail in rebates out of time of purchase, etc. Look at the Fry's ad every time it comes out: Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday. Look at the other ads. Track every item you purchase for 30 days. I promise you, you'll be breaking even, getting 50% off, or getting it free after enough work.[/QUOTE]
Everyone read this.
 
I was going to "flip" with this current $9.99 TRU sale. I could have bought some RE4's and turned them into wal-mart for either $49.99 or exchanged it straight across for a different game.
 
What do you guys think of this? I bought an anime DVD from FYE during the clearance. I changed my mind but had lost the receipt. I went back about a week later to return it for the $30 I paid (was originally 90) and the sale had ended. I had assumed they'd do what most stores do and go with the lowest recent price. Instead they do the current price, and gave me $90 in credit. I didn't really feel too comfortable with it, especially since it was the same store I bought it in, but it wasn't really intentional either even if I could have technically corrected them, though they didn't even tell me until they handed me the credit slip.

Another time was when during the earlier toys r us sale (the one everyone was taking games from to go to FYE for credit to buy psp's and stuff). I did that with a few stores. One I walked into and the guy was half listening to me when I said I wanted to trade these in. I handed him 4 sealed games and he starts going through them and says "you're going to get $120 credit" or something in that range. I said sure and he gave me the slip. He did a return instead of a trade in.
 
What's the collective opinion on gift games? If Aunt Sarah didn't include a gift receipt with the copy of that game you absolutely don't want, should you trade it in for $6 at EB, or $50 at Wal-Mart? Does saying, "This was a gift" absolve the return? Does saying, "I'd like to exchange this without receipt for credit" do the same? Does saying, "This was a gift" and it's a lie doom you to a certain circle of Hell?
 
[quote name='adamsappel']What's the collective opinion on gift games? If Aunt Sarah didn't include a gift receipt with the copy of that game you absolutely don't want, should you trade it in for $6 at EB, or $50 at Wal-Mart? Does saying, "This was a gift" absolve the return? Does saying, "I'd like to exchange this without receipt for credit" do the same? Does saying, "This was a gift" and it's a lie doom you to a certain circle of Hell?[/QUOTE]Unless you know for a fact she got it from Walmart, don't return it there. If you don't want it, trade it in or trade/sell it online on your own.
 
[quote name='adamsappel']What's the collective opinion on gift games? If Aunt Sarah didn't include a gift receipt with the copy of that game you absolutely don't want, should you trade it in for $6 at EB, or $50 at Wal-Mart? Does saying, "This was a gift" absolve the return? Does saying, "I'd like to exchange this without receipt for credit" do the same? Does saying, "This was a gift" and it's a lie doom you to a certain circle of Hell?[/QUOTE]
Ask Aunt Sarah for the gift receipt. If that doesn't work, find out what store it was purchased in. I disagree that you should feel obligated to trade it in, but I feel that you should take a minute or two to figure out where the game was purchased so you can exchange it properly.

This may seem contradictory to my vehement anti-flipping stance, but I feel this way: if you receive a gift, and try to exchange it, that's qualitatively different from flipping. I would consider flipping to not only involve fraudulently returning items to a store without a receipt, but *also* (and this is the crucial part that, since you didn't do, I would argue exonerates you) purchase titles, typically in bulk, at a clearance/reduced rate for the sole purpose of generating profit. That doesn't sound like you.
 
With the TRU deal recently, I've looked into both Walmart and TRU's return policy pretty extensively. I'll focus on Walmart's right here:

First off, I went and looked around the store, especially by the returns/exchange counter in my store, and nowhere does it say anything about the item having to come from Walmart. On the website, it says returns without a receipt FOR ITEMS BOUGHT ON WALMART.COM can be returned for a store credit, but in the store it doesn't specify. Also, on the receipt for TRU and Walmart, it makes no mention of this issue.

Secondly, I asked a manager at a Walmart a bunch of questions. I made it clear what was going on and how people (including myself) were doing this. He said that they accept any item that they carry in the store with no receipt for the price they're currently selling it at. I explicitally asked: "Is it items you carry or items purchased from Walmart" and he said that it was items they carry. He also told me (which I'm sure many of you know) that once you make three returns without a receipt your account is supposedly red-flagged and you cannot return anymore. I haven't heard of this actually happening with anyone (my mom and I frequently return things to Walmart simply because we can't find the receipt and we have no idea where they came from).

Also, Walmart has never once asked me "where did you buy this?" or "did you buy this at a Walmart?" If people are so insistent on this being illegal (which I'm honestly not sure if it is or not), then why does Walmart not simply put up signs that state their policy clearly or require employees to ask where the item was purchased?

Another thing many people have brought up is the intention of the return. Sure, flippers are doing it to make a profit on a giftcard. But legally, what separates flippers from people who are returning items that didn't come from Walmart? What distinguishes someone who purchased the game to do this from someone who received a gift without a receipt or is not sure where something came from? If it didn't come from Walmart, they're all breaking this law (if it exists).

The answer is simple. Walmart should simply stop taking unopened games, DVDs, etc. They're pretty much the only large chain that I know of that is still doing this (Target's caught on in recent years, Best Buy/CC are very YMMV, and all videogame stores have NEVER allowed it). And just because people do it here, doesn't mean there aren't people out there doing worse things. I'm sure people scam Walmart and other stores much worse than a few teenagers buying 3 or 4 games and selling them back to Walmart so they can get a different game for a cheaper price. Oh, and if I haven't made it obvious how I feel, flipping is fine with me, as long as you're not a hoarder and buy 20 copies of the same game so no one else can get what they want. I've never operated like that and never will.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I would consider flipping to not only involve fraudulently returning items to a store without a receipt, but *also* (and this is the crucial part that, since you didn't do, I would argue exonerates you) purchase titles, typically in bulk, at a clearance/reduced rate for the sole purpose of generating profit. That doesn't sound like you.[/QUOTE]

No, it sounds like me. BWAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

Of course, I'd prefer to create business relationships with companies to relieve them of their overstock. Sadly, most companies would rather let merchandise rot rather than unload them at cost or for a small profit.

I wish business types took a few math courses while getting their "degrees". Maybe then they would figure out that having racks upon racks of stagnant stock doesn't generate profit.

Hitting up stores for less than $20 of gross profit gets very tedious (and, given the direction of gas prices, unprofitable).

Oh, to contribute to the argument ...

If you don't have to lie to complete a flip, you've done nothing wrong.

Does it piss people off? Certainly, but there's nothing wrong with pissing people off either.

There's a difference between flipping and hoarding, but that's another post.
 
Ask Aunt Sarah for the gift receipt. If that doesn't work, find out what store it was purchased in. I disagree that you should feel obligated to trade it in, but I feel that you should take a minute or two to figure out where the game was purchased so you can exchange it properly.
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Why should you risk hurting someones feelings to do that though? You already said you don't think its equal to the flipping being discussed (since they didn't buy it to make money), so why is it so important that you'd risk that? A lot of people don't exactly like being told you don't like their gift.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Why should you risk hurting someones feelings to do that though? You already said you don't think its equal to the flipping being discussed (since they didn't buy it to make money), so why is it so important that you'd risk that? A lot of people don't exactly like being told you don't like their gift.[/QUOTE]If I was the gift-giver, I'd be more concerned about the person being happy with their gift. Unless it was something that involved a lot of personal effort (like a sweater you knitted), my feelings wouldn't be hurt.
 
Pertainant sections in bold:​
THE MICHIGAN PENAL CODE (EXCERPT)
Act 328 of 1931

750.218 False pretenses with intent to defraud; violation; penalty; enhanced sentence based on prior convictions; “false pretense” defined.



Sec. 218.

(1) A person who, with the intent to defraud or cheat makes or uses a false pretense to do 1 or more of the following is guilty of a crime punishable as provided in this section:

(a) Cause a person to grant, convey, assign, demise, lease, or mortgage land or an interest in land.

(b) Obtain a person's signature on a forged written instrument.

(c) Obtain from a person any money or personal property or the use of any instrument, facility, article, or other valuable thing or service.

(d) By means of a false weight or measure obtain a larger amount or quantity of property than was bargained for.

(e) By means of a false weight or measure sell or dispose of a smaller amount or quantity of property than was bargained for.

(2) If the land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of less than $200.00, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 93 days or a fine of not more than $500.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine.

(3) If any of the following apply, the person is guilty of a misdemeanor punishable by imprisonment for not more than 1 year or a fine of not more than $2,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine:

(a) The land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of $200.00 or more but less than $1,000.00.

(b) The person violates subsection (2) and has 1 or more prior convictions for committing or attempting to commit an offense under this section or a local ordinance substantially corresponding to this section.

(4) If any of the following apply, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 5 years or a fine of not more than $10,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine:

(a) The land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of $1,000.00 or more but less than $20,000.00.

(b) The person violates subsection (3)(a) and has 1 or more prior convictions for committing or attempting to commit an offense under this section. For purposes of this subdivision, however, a prior conviction does not include a conviction for a violation or attempted violation of subsection (2) or (3)(b).

(5) If any of the following apply, the person is guilty of a felony punishable by imprisonment for not more than 10 years or a fine of not more than $15,000.00 or 3 times the value, whichever is greater, or both imprisonment and a fine:

(a) The land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of has a value of $20,000.00 or more.

(b) The person violates subsection (4)(a) and has 2 or more prior convictions for committing or attempting to commit an offense under this section. For purposes of this subdivision, however, a prior conviction does not include a conviction for a violation or attempted violation of subsection (2) or (3)(b).

(6) The values of land, interest in land, money, personal property, use of the instrument, facility, article, or valuable thing, service, larger amount obtained, or smaller amount sold or disposed of in separate incidents pursuant to a scheme or course of conduct within any 12-month period may be aggregated to determine the total value involved in the violation of this section.

(7) If the prosecuting attorney intends to seek an enhanced sentence based upon the defendant having 1 or more prior convictions, the prosecuting attorney shall include on the complaint and information a statement listing the prior conviction or convictions. The existence of the defendant's prior conviction or convictions shall be determined by the court, without a jury, at sentencing or at a separate hearing for that purpose before sentencing. The existence of a prior conviction may be established by any evidence relevant for that purpose, including, but not limited to, 1 or more of the following:

(a) A copy of the judgment of conviction.

(b) A transcript of a prior trial, plea-taking, or sentencing.

(c) Information contained in a presentence report.

(d) The defendant's statement.

(8) If the sentence for a conviction under this section is enhanced by 1 or more prior convictions, those prior convictions shall not be used to further enhance the sentence for the conviction pursuant to section 10, 11, or 12 of chapter IX of the code of criminal procedure, 1927 PA 175, MCL 769.10, 769.11, and 769.12.

(9) As used in this section, “false pretense” includes, but is not limited to, a false or fraudulent representation, writing, communication, statement, or message, communicated by any means to another person, that the maker of the representation, writing, communication, statement, or message knows is false or fraudulent. The false pretense may be a representation regarding a past or existing fact or circumstance or a representation regarding the intention to perform a future event or to have a future event performed.


History: 1931, Act 328, Eff. Sept. 18, 1931 ;-- CL 1948, 750.218 ;-- Am. 1957, Act 69, Eff. Sept. 27, 1957 ;-- Am. 1998, Act 312, Eff. Jan. 1, 1999 ;-- Am. 2004, Act 154, Eff. Sept. 1, 2004



If at any time you state "I bought this at a Walmart and want to return it", answer yes to a clerk's query to the same effect, or sign any paper alleging your initial purchase from Walmart, you are making a statement that is on it's face falacious and thus establishing a false pretense for a past or existing fact.

Given the price of games and the value one recieves in return, if one conducts such acts more than 3-4 times in a twelve month period it would be rather easy to hit the threshold required for a misdemenor charge, and per section 6, using these values in agregate is not an issue.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']If you don't have to lie to complete a flip, you've done nothing wrong.[/QUOTE]
You're absolutely right, and I've always claimed that the legality of flipping is strictly contingent upon whether or not you knowingly lie (and, of course, if that can be proven).

Now, you are one of the few people who gladly admits to hoarding and flipping. I'm not sure if that makes me want to key your car, or rather applaud you for admitting to being the bitch that other people seem to be afraid to admit to (if they engage in the same behavior as you). I am curious what part of KY you live in; of course, if it's anywhere near me, and I ever miss out on a deal, I will not hesitate to blame you. It's not rational, but it is funny.

Perhaps for another thread, but a serious question laced in my typical ad hominem: if you're such a goddamned economist/math whiz, why are you flipping games and raiding deals to sell on ebay, instead of running another kind of business? You claim to want to offer a successful business model to successful businesses, but you aren't engaging in that yourself. Why is that?

Why should you risk hurting someones feelings to do that though? You already said you don't think its equal to the flipping being discussed (since they didn't buy it to make money), so why is it so important that you'd risk that? A lot of people don't exactly like being told you don't like their gift.
Click to expand...
As someone said, the gift giver should be more concerned that the recipient likes the gift, rather than gladly accepts whatever trivial morsel you were given. Now, if someone were to reject a homemade gift (beer in my case, knitted goods and/or jewelry in the wife's), I'd be hurt (like the good ol' boys who put up a stone wall in the front of our house who told me my beer reminded them of budweiser they left in the woods for months on end in the summer, only to suddenly discover it, re-refrigerate it and drink it; THAT hurt). OTOH, if my father-in-law didn't like the shirt we bought him, or my brother didn't like the books I got him, then I'd gladly help them exchange it. If you're bothered that the people you bought a gift for don't like the precise thing you got them, you're buying gifts for the wrong reasons.
 
If you go into Walmart and say "I'd like to return this, I don't have a receipt" and they take it back, you're really not doing anything wrong.

I haven't done this, because I'd still feel bad, but there's nothing wrong with it. If it hurts the store, they will stop taking things back with no receipt.

Why is everybody complaining so much?

BTW I never hoard or flip or anything, I just buy games to play, not really one for trading.
 
You know, just because Walmart allows it to occur doesn't mean it's not wrong. Simply put, I'm guessing they have determined that the money lost by people doing three bad-faith returns per year is balanced or exceeded by the profit they gain by offering customer-oriented services like that to gain customer loyalty. Legal or not, you're taking advantage of a policy in an illegitimate way. I consider that wrong. They are just able to shrug it off.
 
I was just being hypothetical. There is no Aunt Sarah, not in my family, anyway. I just wondered if that situation is perceived differently. I think flipping them is more of a pain in the ass than unethical.
 
I see nothing wrong with the purchasing a game with the intent to trade it in shortly after. Recently, I wanted to do the Rhino 2 for 1 deal and was lacking a game. So, I strolled over to TRU and picked up a copy of Geist (There was 4 left when I left) and then went over to rhino and traded it in. I see nothing wrong with that.
 
[quote name='mcgavin27']I see nothing wrong with the purchasing a game with the intent to trade it in shortly after. Recently, I wanted to do the Rhino 2 for 1 deal and was lacking a game. So, I strolled over to TRU and picked up a copy of Geist (There was 4 left when I left) and then went over to rhino and traded it in. I see nothing wrong with that.[/QUOTE]

There isn't (unless you count cheating someone out of the game that actually wanted to play it but that's just people whining that they didn't get there first). The flipping that isn't tolerated is returning to Walmart or any other store without a receipt and lying that it was bought there to get store credit.
 
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