Is Flipping Wrong?

[quote name='javeryh']There isn't (unless you count cheating someone out of the game that actually wanted to play it but that's just people whining that they didn't get there first). The flipping that isn't tolerated is returning to Walmart or any other store without a receipt and lying that it was bought there to get store credit.[/QUOTE]

Where is the lying part though if they never ask you "Did you get this at Walmart?"
 
[quote name='TUBAPRO1']Where is the lying part though if they never ask you "Did you get this at Walmart?"[/QUOTE] That's just rationalization. You know you are deceiving them and you know you didn't buy it there. Funny how people rationalize with silly lines like that.
 
[quote name='TUBAPRO1']Where is the lying part though if they never ask you "Did you get this at Walmart?"[/QUOTE]

It's implicit in your actions. Last I checked, most stores aren't into the business of buying random shit lying around your house.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']


As someone said, the gift giver should be more concerned that the recipient likes the gift, rather than gladly accepts whatever trivial morsel you were given. Now, if someone were to reject a homemade gift (beer in my case, knitted goods and/or jewelry in the wife's), I'd be hurt (like the good ol' boys who put up a stone wall in the front of our house who told me my beer reminded them of budweiser they left in the woods for months on end in the summer, only to suddenly discover it, re-refrigerate it and drink it; THAT hurt). OTOH, if my father-in-law didn't like the shirt we bought him, or my brother didn't like the books I got him, then I'd gladly help them exchange it. If you're bothered that the people you bought a gift for don't like the precise thing you got them, you're buying gifts for the wrong reasons.[/QUOTE]

I'm not bothered by it personally, as I feel that I went through the effort to get the gift and my concern for the person is shown by that effort, though a particularly personal gift would be different. The thing is one of my family members has a habit of telling people exactly what she thinks. A lot of times someone will be so happy with the gift they're giving her and think its so great, only to hear her complain about how she doesn't need/want/like it. One person in particular that happens to a lot.

There's also the fact that since I was a little kid I was always told not to say anything if I didn't like a gift (as this happened with the vast majority of non parent gifts), and I'd never tell someone that I didn't like their gift as I'd feel like a jerk. A few times I've been given the same gift by two people and one (or both) realized that, I even feel bad with that. I'd prefer that they are happy to see that I like it and, if I don't like it, I can almost always just return it to a store and get something else and they'll never know.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']The thing is one of my family members has a habit of telling people exactly what she thinks. A lot of times someone will be so happy with the gift they're giving her and think its so great, only to hear her complain about how she doesn't need/want/like it. One person in particular that happens to a lot.[/QUOTE]
I think there is a difference between politely asking about a gift, making a 'lil white lie' about having one already, or something else. Your example of your relative sounds more like someone needs to learn manners and tact more than anything else (on a side note: whenever I hear about people who "tell people exactly what they think," that's usually code for "loudmouth bitches who complain openly about everything, but are scared to death to ever say anything remotely complimentary or kind". Just out of curiosity, is your relative one of those people?).

Now, to be sure, if someone conveys to me that they are *very* proud of a gift that I'm not fond of, I'd probably refrain from telling them that. OTOH, I'm not a return guy unless I have an extra already. I would imagine, however, that I would be hard-pressed to be frank with a gift-giver if they seemed very pleased with what they got.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I think there is a difference between politely asking about a gift, making a 'lil white lie' about having one already, or something else. Your example of your relative sounds more like someone needs to learn manners and tact more than anything else (on a side note: whenever I hear about people who "tell people exactly what they think," that's usually code for "loudmouth bitches who complain openly about everything, but are scared to death to ever say anything remotely complimentary or kind". Just out of curiosity, is your relative one of those people?).

Now, to be sure, if someone conveys to me that they are *very* proud of a gift that I'm not fond of, I'd probably refrain from telling them that. OTOH, I'm not a return guy unless I have an extra already. I would imagine, however, that I would be hard-pressed to be frank with a gift-giver if they seemed very pleased with what they got.[/QUOTE]

My family is small enough that no one is really buying gifts for a large amount of people, so there probably is a little more thought in the gifts, at least with most of them.

Though she really does say exactly what she thinks. She's not always yelling or always complaining, she will forgive anything as long as you apologize, and she will say how great something is if she thinks its great. It's just there's no filter between what she thinks in her head and what she says, especially when it comes to gifts. The worst time was when she got a lobstergram (a live lobster personally delivered to her door). The giver was absolutely thrilled with it, but she thought it was a horrible gift and let everyone know it. Another time she got a car seat warmer and she thought it was a great gift, and let everyone know it. My mother often tries to warn her when she thinks she's about to recieve a bad gift and it usually works, though it didn't with the lobster one. The fact that she's the oldest person in the family (85, second oldest is about 55) is probably why people are more tolerant of it.
 
I was going to post this yesterday, but I ran out of time.

[quote name='mykevermin']You're absolutely right, and I've always claimed that the legality of flipping is strictly contingent upon whether or not you knowingly lie (and, of course, if that can be proven).
Now, you are one of the few people who gladly admits to hoarding and flipping. I'm not sure if that makes me want to key your car, or rather applaud you for admitting to being the bitch that other people seem to be afraid to admit to (if they engage in the same behavior as you). I am curious what part of KY you live in; of course, if it's anywhere near me, and I ever miss out on a deal, I will not hesitate to blame you. It's not rational, but it is funny.

Perhaps for another thread, but a serious question laced in my typical ad hominem: if you're such a goddamned economist/math whiz, why are you flipping games and raiding deals to sell on ebay, instead of running another kind of business? You claim to want to offer a successful business model to successful businesses, but you aren't engaging in that yourself. Why is that?

[/QUOTE]

I gladly admit to flipping. Hoarding is another story.

The prime examples of hoarding I've read about here involve going to a store during a clearance and buying every copy of every game. I tend to buy a copy of every game I can make a profit from. It's the difference between brushhogging a field and pruning a bonzai plant. If a store has 1 copy of 5 different titles and all five titles have a profit margin, the store will have 0 games after I'm there. If a store has 5 copies of 100 different titles and 10 of the titles have a profit margin, the store will have 490 games after I'm there. Yes, I'll repeatedly hit a store for the same games after titles sell, but there can be days between purchases.

Also, I tend to hit sales AFTER the first day. It's a sporting chance thing. If a sale is REALLY that important to a CAG, he or she can grab whatever games are on sale.

On to the second half of your post:

In 2005, my business' gross sales grew from around $10K to just under $49K. That's over 400% growth. If I can continue that growth for another year, the business becomes a full time job. Another year after that, I'll need employees. Another year after that, I'll need supervisors.

My business is video games because I like video games. I like popping in a video game for a few minutes or hours. After I'm done, the profit I make is merely positive reenforcement.

Regarding my business model, it is very difficult to change a business mentality. Most businesses accept having inventory rot on their shelves. They are under some delusion that Black Friday will make it all better. It's why you'll see a N64 Madden sitting in Movie Gallery for $10 in 2005. It's why you'll see a copy of Bloodrayne 2 for $50 in Wal-Mart when it's part of CC's $10 clearance. It's why you'll see Xenosaga II in CC for $50 when TRU has it for $10 and in a B2G1F sale. Most companies like Wal-Mart, Best Buy or Circuit City have a video game section because other stores sell video games. They don't actually understand that video games will sell for $50 new for a month or two then drop in value.

EB/GS understand video games a little better, but the bigger stores' collective mentality/ignorance doesn't force their prices down by much. Of course, EB/GS let bargain value games rot for months too. Rather than sell a game on eBay in a bulk lot for $4 or $5, they'll let it rot in same vague hope that somebody stupid enough will stumble into their store and pick it up for $8 or less. Factor in a B2G1F sale with a 10% off card and they're selling value games through a B & M just to be selling value games through a B & M.

Obviously, this raises an obvious question: How would I run a B & M? Well, that goes well beyond the scope of this particular thread. If you want to read my unorthodox ideas and lame excuses for not undertaking them out of curiousity or a desire to have something humorous to read for years to come, we can trade PMs or start a new thread.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I was going to post this yesterday, but I ran out of time.



I gladly admit to flipping. Hoarding is another story.

The prime examples of hoarding I've read about here involve going to a store during a clearance and buying every copy of every game. I tend to buy a copy of every game I can make a profit from. It's the difference between brushhogging a field and pruning a bonzai plant. If a store has 1 copy of 5 different titles and all five titles have a profit margin, the store will have 0 games after I'm there. If a store has 5 copies of 100 different titles and 10 of the titles have a profit margin, the store will have 490 games after I'm there. Yes, I'll repeatedly hit a store for the same games after titles sell, but there can be days between purchases.

Also, I tend to hit sales AFTER the first day. It's a sporting chance thing. If a sale is REALLY that important to a CAG, he or she can grab whatever games are on sale.

On to the second half of your post:

In 2005, my business' gross sales grew from around $10K to just under $49K. That's over 400% growth. If I can continue that growth for another year, the business becomes a full time job. Another year after that, I'll need employees. Another year after that, I'll need supervisors.

My business is video games because I like video games. I like popping in a video game for a few minutes or hours. After I'm done, the profit I make is merely positive reenforcement.

Regarding my business model, it is very difficult to change a business mentality. Most businesses accept having inventory rot on their shelves. They are under some delusion that Black Friday will make it all better. It's why you'll see a N64 Madden sitting in Movie Gallery for $10 in 2005. It's why you'll see a copy of Bloodrayne 2 for $50 in Wal-Mart when it's part of CC's $10 clearance. It's why you'll see Xenosaga II in CC for $50 when TRU has it for $10 and in a B2G1F sale. Most companies like Wal-Mart, Best Buy or Circuit City have a video game section because other stores sell video games. They don't actually understand that video games will sell for $50 new for a month or two then drop in value.

EB/GS understand video games a little better, but the bigger stores' collective mentality/ignorance doesn't force their prices down by much. Of course, EB/GS let bargain value games rot for months too. Rather than sell a game on eBay in a bulk lot for $4 or $5, they'll let it rot in same vague hope that somebody stupid enough will stumble into their store and pick it up for $8 or less. Factor in a B2G1F sale with a 10% off card and they're selling value games through a B & M just to be selling value games through a B & M.

Obviously, this raises an obvious question: How would I run a B & M? Well, that goes well beyond the scope of this particular thread. If you want to read my unorthodox ideas and lame excuses for not undertaking them out of curiousity or a desire to have something humorous to read for years to come, we can trade PMs or start a new thread.[/QUOTE]

I'd like clarification on which sort of flipping you are talking about here...
exploiting favorable, yet legal, trade in deals with companies such as Blockbuster, Rhino, et al, or the wholesale defrauding of a number of businesses.

If it's the former, I can see where you're coming from. I don't agree with you, but I can see where it's coming from.

Otherwise, if you're moving that volume of product through fraudulent returns through the system, you're not a businessman, you're a thief.

By the way, are you filling your profits with the IRS? I'm pretty sure they'd like to hear of your profits of around 50K, as well as want their cut.
 
[quote name='JSweeney']I'd like clarification on which sort of flipping you are talking about here...
exploiting favorable, yet legal, trade in deals with companies such as Blockbuster, Rhino, et al, or the wholesale defrauding of a number of businesses.

If it's the former, I can see where you're coming from. I don't agree with you, but I can see where it's coming from.

Otherwise, if you're moving that volume of product through fraudulent returns through the system, you're not a businessman, you're a thief.

By the way, are you filling your profits with the IRS? I'm pretty sure they'd like to hear of your profits of around 50K, as well as want their cut.[/QUOTE]

I said just under $49K in gross SALES. If I had made just under $49K in gross PROFITS, I certainly wouldn't have a 40 hour a week job someplace else.

A typical flip for me would be buying Batman Begins on Black Friday via a pricematch at Meijer's for $10 and dumping it on eBay for $20 before shipping.

Regarding profits, I keep 2 ledgers (go ahead and roll your eyes before reading the rest of the paragraph) in the form of 2 spreadsheets. Ledger #1 consists each individual item I sell with its final price after shipping, the out of pocket cost of the item, the shipping cost of the item, the Paypal fee of the item, the listing fee of the item, the final value fee of the item and the sum of all columns to determine a profit or loss on that specific item. Ledger #2 consists of bulk sales and bulk expenses. Since I don't carry an inventory, the numbers match.

Regarding the IRS, both ledgers go to my bookkeeper (my stepmother). We'll adjust the expenses to include such things as a percentage of my mortgage and to exclude such things as unproveable mileage. If any profit remains (or, more accurately, can't be legally hidden), the federal, state and city will get their cuts and I'll keep my business license for another year.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I said just under $49K in gross SALES. If I had made just under $49K in gross PROFITS, I certainly wouldn't have a 40 hour a week job someplace else.

A typical flip for me would be buying Batman Begins on Black Friday via a pricematch at Meijer's for $10 and dumping it on eBay for $20 before shipping.

Regarding profits, I keep 2 ledgers (go ahead and roll your eyes before reading the rest of the paragraph) in the form of 2 spreadsheets. Ledger #1 consists each individual item I sell with its final price after shipping, the out of pocket cost of the item, the shipping cost of the item, the Paypal fee of the item, the listing fee of the item, the final value fee of the item and the sum of all columns to determine a profit or loss on that specific item. Ledger #2 consists of bulk sales and bulk expenses. Since I don't carry an inventory, the numbers match.

Regarding the IRS, both ledgers go to my bookkeeper (my stepmother). We'll adjust the expenses to include such things as a percentage of my mortgage and to exclude such things as unproveable mileage. If any profit remains (or, more accurately, can't be legally hidden), the federal, state and city will get their cuts and I'll keep my business license for another year.[/QUOTE]

After your clarifications, I see no issue... I don't think any reasonable person could.
You are just a savvy businessman who has built a home business around his hobby. There's nothing morally nor legally wrong with that, even if you were to go on the days of sales and clean a place out. That you actually don't do such things, and are actually cognisant of the feelings of others in your practices (rarely clearing a shelf, leaving product for others), I can't say that I'm anything but impressed. You don't let pure profit alter your morality. That's commendable.

We really need to reclassify some of these terms. People flipping in the manner you suggest do not deserve to be lumped in with people conducting fraud.
 
Actually circuitcity walmart or bestbuy understand videogames more than gamestop and ebgames..You look at the anual reports gamestop and ebgames blockbuster all lost money. versus circuitcity bestbuy and walmart make money. i work at a circuitcity that is extremley busy. we sell close to 20 playstation 2s on a weekend day. circuit citys profit margins come on tvs and computers same with bestbuy. They want to drive traffic to the store so they have video games music and movies to get you to come into the store

see with video games the manfacuter is the one who looses and not the retailer. look at turok, nba jam did horrible and now acclaim is gone.
Look at army men and the other junk 3do did and now there gone.
these are companies that end up with alot of clerance and now there gone...
if you guys study business and work at a retail store youwould understand profit better.
 
To translate adidas' points:

EB and GS don't make money; CC does.
CC makes money off of tvs.
Video Games are low profit margin items.
Retailers make money off of games, not manufacturers.

I'll let others draw the various diagrams that point out contradictory statements.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']To translate adidas' points:

EB and GS don't make money; CC does.
CC makes money off of tvs.
Video Games are low profit margin items.
Retailers make money off of games, not manufacturers.

I'll let others draw the various diagrams that point out contradictory statements.[/QUOTE]

Even though adidas had several invalid points, his underlying message is somewhat correct.

Large companies such as Wal-Mart diversified in many product lines do not make significant profits off of their video games. They run their video game departments as a loss leader.

Small companies such as Game Crazy or Gamestop specializing in video games do not make significant profits.

Of course, business people do stupid things like buy thousands of Forza bundles.

At Wal-Mart, your tire & lube express or photo center can take up the slack. At Gamestop, the value bins have to sell better or you have to hire a perky woman (or girl) with perkier tits to convince the customers to buy consoles near their sunsets bundled with an inferior game.

Business people also do stupid things like fully prepay for so many Xbox 360s while only requiring partial payments for preorders that entire fourth quarter budgets are tied up in backordered equipment.

My contention is that all stores have a certain amount of slop that can be rectified by forging business relationships with flippers like me or dumping stagnant stock on eBay.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Even though adidas had several invalid points, his underlying message is somewhat correct.

Large companies such as Wal-Mart diversified in many product lines do not make significant profits off of their video games. They run their video game departments as a loss leader.

Small companies such as Game Crazy or Gamestop specializing in video games do not make significant profits.

Of course, business people do stupid things like buy thousands of Forza bundles.

At Wal-Mart, your tire & lube express or photo center can take up the slack. At Gamestop, the value bins have to sell better or you have to hire a perky woman (or girl) with perkier tits to convince the customers to buy consoles near their sunsets bundled with an inferior game.

Business people also do stupid things like fully prepay for so many Xbox 360s while only requiring partial payments for preorders that entire fourth quarter budgets are tied up in backordered equipment.

My contention is that all stores have a certain amount of slop that can be rectified by forging business relationships with flippers like me or dumping stagnant stock on eBay.[/QUOTE]

Business love people who are flippers in your sense... you buy up what they consider to be "dead wieght", and not worth the shelfspace... thus the reduction of price.

You and others engaged in flipping (in that sense) are somewhat like a vulture feasting on carrion. Some people may find the act distasteful, but it's necessary to keep the system working well and keeping the ecosystem healthy. More free shelfspace -> more newer product -> larger profit/smaller losses.

People "flipping" in the fraudulent return sense are parasites... they are deleterious to the system, and their actions are soley self serving and harmful to the system. From time to time, they may kill a chain/store/host, which provides more carrion, but the system eventually becomes unbalanced and falls apart when too many parasites invade the same hosts.
 
[quote name='JSweeney']You and others engaged in flipping (in that sense) are somewhat like a vulture feasting on carrion. Some people may find the act distasteful, but it's necessary to keep the system working well and keeping the ecosystem healthy. More free shelfspace -> more newer product -> larger profit/smaller losses.
[/QUOTE]

You are exactly right.

Unfortunately, many businesses run their video game divisions with the mentality that it's a loss leader or a crowd attractor. If a game hasn't sold on the shelf in a month, don't have five copies of it sitting behind it and don't have a pallet of it sitting in some warehouse two states over. There are always newer games that will sell for full retail price.
 
bump for an excellent 6 page read. I still don't know where I stand tho. Both sides make good points. lets bring this argument back!
 
In the end ive changed my mind a few times about flipping but I think its great.

Your using there service for what its meant to be used for.

They should work out there bugs and how else can they work out there bugs if u dont show them there are any? Your doing them a favor and your doing urself a favor.

A million dollar corperation has no buisness hassling a teen for using the service they advertise to the teen.
 
At least some of these flippers are making a profit not involving drugs and kids. Id much rather have someone who wants to make some extra cash flip games.
 
[quote name='adidas']Actually circuitcity walmart or bestbuy understand videogames more than gamestop and ebgames..You look at the anual reports gamestop and ebgames blockbuster all lost money. versus circuitcity bestbuy and walmart make money. i work at a circuitcity that is extremley busy. we sell close to 20 playstation 2s on a weekend day. circuit citys profit margins come on tvs and computers same with bestbuy. They want to drive traffic to the store so they have video games music and movies to get you to come into the store

see with video games the manfacuter is the one who looses and not the retailer. look at turok, nba jam did horrible and now acclaim is gone.
Look at army men and the other junk 3do did and now there gone.
these are companies that end up with alot of clerance and now there gone...
if you guys study business and work at a retail store youwould understand profit better.[/quote]

Hmm, I just looked at GS's income sheet and Blockbusters. GS hasn't lost money on any year reported and it's stock is at an all time high and they posted a profit of 100 million dollars last year.

Blockbuster on the other hand has lost money all of the last 3 years, and a lot of it might I add., along the lines of 2.5 billion dollars over 3 years.

Circuit city lost 90 million 2 years ago but made money last year.

Best Buy is a machine making 900 million last year.

And Wal-Mart...I cringe, made 11 billion dollars last year. But, I doubt that was due to their knowledge of video game sales.
 
[quote name='BodyShot213']If flipping is wrong, then i dont know whats right. This is how our economy works.[/QUOTE]

If you read back through this thread, you see where the problem arises. It is in the definition of "flipping". To some people flipping means buying games cheap and then returning them without a receipt to places like Walmart for $50. That is wrong - legally and morally.

To others, flipping means buying games cheaply at one place and trading them in as used games at another place that offers more for them. That is clearly NOT wrong, morally, legally, ethically, or whatever. Though there are poeple on CAG that seem to think so. I think you mean this definition when you say it is how our economy works.
 
[quote name='njchris']That's just rationalization. You know you are deceiving them and you know you didn't buy it there. Funny how people rationalize with silly lines like that.[/quote]

There is no deception. Walmart purposely doesn't ask because they don't care.

Walmart is purposely accepting a calculated business risk by accepting items purchased at other stores and they are, in fact, profitting quite handsomely from their decision to do so.

They are aware that they are losing money to some customers by accepting items bought at other stores, but they don't care because on the whole they are making money by providing a hassle-free return experience to customers.

[quote name='javeryh']It's implicit in your actions. Last I checked, most stores aren't into the business of buying random shit lying around your house.[/quote]

It is not implicit. Walmart is in the business of buying random shit lying around your house. They do it to attract customers to the store.

There is nothing wrong with taking advantage of Walmart's business model. It is no different than getting free after rebate items.

I wish they had Walmarts around here so I could take advantage of this policy.
 
[quote name='chunk']
I wish they had Walmarts around here so I could take advantage of this policy.[/QUOTE]

Wait, you live somewhere that doesn't have a Walmart?? Rhodesia, perhaps?

Funny that you say they provide a "hassle-free return experience". To me, the whole thought of driving to a Walmart, parking in their over-crowded parking lot, dealing with the hordes of people, waiting in the return line, etc, is the very definition of a "hassle".
 
how can u even take advantage of walmarts policy i took something back there the other day on accident from another store they tryed to scan it and it woudlnt scan instantly they said 'its from another store we cant take it'.
 
[quote name='chunk']There is no deception. Walmart purposely doesn't ask because they don't care.

Walmart is purposely accepting a calculated business risk by accepting items purchased at other stores and they are, in fact, profitting quite handsomely from their decision to do so.[/quote]

Lies = Deception.

If you're returning an item to a Wal-Mart and you didn't buy it there, you're lying to them, which is fraud. Fraud is illegal.


[quote name='chunk']They are aware that they are losing money to some customers by accepting items bought at other stores, but they don't care because on the whole they are making money by providing a hassle-free return experience to customers.[/quote]

Riiight. That's why they've recently limited no-receipt returns to 3 every six months/year. I mean, of course they would limit it, especially if they were profiting from it. Hell, I've tried returning something to Wal-Mart that actually was from Wal-Mart, but I didn't have the receipt, so I couldn't.

What do I know, though? You're the expert, having no Wal-Marts around you.
 
[quote name='Skelah']how can u even take advantage of walmarts policy i took something back there the other day on accident from another store they tryed to scan it and it woudlnt scan instantly they said 'its from another store we cant take it'.[/QUOTE]
It was probably something that they don't carry, so it wasn't in their system.
 
[quote name='Trakan']Lies = Deception.

If you're returning an item to a Wal-Mart and you didn't buy it there, you're lying to them, which is fraud. Fraud is illegal.[/quote]

Depends. I'd argue that, legally, you have to *say* "I bought it here" or "it was a gift from my aunt in Des Moines, she bought it at a Wal-Mart." OTOH, there could be some legal implications that, upon the *act* of returning an item to a store, one agrees that the item was, in fact, purchased there. If the former is fraud, then you simply need to watch what you say. If the latter, then any act of flipping (save for trade-in exploitation) is illegal.

Riiight. That's why they've recently limited no-receipt returns to 3 every six months/year. I mean, of course they would limit it, especially if they were profiting from it. Hell, I've tried returning something to Wal-Mart that actually was from Wal-Mart, but I didn't have the receipt, so I couldn't.

What do I know, though? You're the expert, having no Wal-Marts around you.
Click to expand...

Full disclosure: despite what I probably said earlier in this thread (being against flipping), I did engage in an act of flipping this week. I feel ashamed, and there's no excuse. Long story short, I found a 360 bundle on the cheap a few weeks ago ($500 for platinum, 2 games, and a wireless controller). Well, I knew that I wanted one of the games, and was iffy on the second. Thank the maker for marketplace demos, as I found out how bad this Burnout-with-guns wannabe was, without having to open the package myself. So, I went to a store and told the clerk "I'd like to exchange this, but don't have a receipt." (my words precisely). Ten minutes later, I ended up with Fight Night Round 3. Do I feel bad for flipping? Yeah. Do I feel like a hypocrite? Yeah.

But I'm a hypocrite with Fight Night Round 3. Forgive my rationalizations, but I somehow do not expect to purchase any more games this year that I knowingly did not want, so this will be my flipping in toto for quite some time. I don't blame me, I blame the bundles! (OK, and me too).
 
[quote name='io']Wait, you live somewhere that doesn't have a Walmart?? Rhodesia, perhaps?[/quote]
There are no Walmarts in NYC. Not just Manhattan either, none in Brooklyn, Queens, the Bronx, or Staten Island.

[quote name='Trakan']Lies = Deception.

If you're returning an item to a Wal-Mart and you didn't buy it there, you're lying to them, which is fraud. Fraud is illegal.[/quote]
First of all, if you go to the return counter at walmart and say, "This item was purchased at another store, but I'd like to return it here" how is that lying?

Second of all, lying to the clueless Walmart clerk doesn't necessarily mean that you are defrauding Walmart. Defrauding requires that you lie in order to cheat. Lying in itself does not necessarily imply cheating and, since it is Walmarts policy to accept 3 returns without receipt per year per individual, regardless of where the items were purchased, Walmart is not being cheated.

Now, if you lied in order to make more than 3 returns (I know they check ID, but suppose they didn't check one time) you would be cheating Walmart, since Walmart only agreed to 3 times and no more. That would be fraud.

See TUBAPRO1's conversation with a Walmart manager on page 5 (I'll quote it at the end of this post so everyone can read it).

[quote name='Trakan'] Riiight. That's why they've recently limited no-receipt returns to 3 every six months/year. I mean, of course they would limit it, especially if they were profiting from it. Hell, I've tried returning something to Wal-Mart that actually was from Wal-Mart, but I didn't have the receipt, so I couldn't.

What do I know, though? You're the expert, having no Wal-Marts around you.[/quote]
Companies that offer rebates also limit the number of rebates per customer. That doesn't mean they aren't making money by offering rebates. Large retail is a complicated business; it's not as simple as just "buy low, sell high".

[quote name='TUBAPRO1']With the TRU deal recently, I've looked into both Walmart and TRU's return policy pretty extensively. I'll focus on Walmart's right here:

First off, I went and looked around the store, especially by the returns/exchange counter in my store, and nowhere does it say anything about the item having to come from Walmart. On the website, it says returns without a receipt FOR ITEMS BOUGHT ON WALMART.COM can be returned for a store credit, but in the store it doesn't specify. Also, on the receipt for TRU and Walmart, it makes no mention of this issue.

Secondly, I asked a manager at a Walmart a bunch of questions. I made it clear what was going on and how people (including myself) were doing this. He said that they accept any item that they carry in the store with no receipt for the price they're currently selling it at. I explicitally asked: "Is it items you carry or items purchased from Walmart" and he said that it was items they carry. He also told me (which I'm sure many of you know) that once you make three returns without a receipt your account is supposedly red-flagged and you cannot return anymore. I haven't heard of this actually happening with anyone (my mom and I frequently return things to Walmart simply because we can't find the receipt and we have no idea where they came from).

Also, Walmart has never once asked me "where did you buy this?" or "did you buy this at a Walmart?" If people are so insistent on this being illegal (which I'm honestly not sure if it is or not), then why does Walmart not simply put up signs that state their policy clearly or require employees to ask where the item was purchased?

Another thing many people have brought up is the intention of the return. Sure, flippers are doing it to make a profit on a giftcard. But legally, what separates flippers from people who are returning items that didn't come from Walmart? What distinguishes someone who purchased the game to do this from someone who received a gift without a receipt or is not sure where something came from? If it didn't come from Walmart, they're all breaking this law (if it exists).

The answer is simple. Walmart should simply stop taking unopened games, DVDs, etc. They're pretty much the only large chain that I know of that is still doing this (Target's caught on in recent years, Best Buy/CC are very YMMV, and all videogame stores have NEVER allowed it). And just because people do it here, doesn't mean there aren't people out there doing worse things. I'm sure people scam Walmart and other stores much worse than a few teenagers buying 3 or 4 games and selling them back to Walmart so they can get a different game for a cheaper price. Oh, and if I haven't made it obvious how I feel, flipping is fine with me, as long as you're not a hoarder and buy 20 copies of the same game so no one else can get what they want. I've never operated like that and never will.[/quote]
 
[quote name='chunk']First of all, if you go to the return counter at walmart and say, "This item was purchased at another store, but I'd like to return it here" how is that lying?[/QUOTE]Has someone actually done this successfully (explicitly said "I'd like to return this item that is from another store that is not Walmart." not "I'd like to return this item you carry.")? I mean, the word "return" itself implies it should be originally from the store.
 
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']Has someone actually done this successfully (explicitly said "I'd like to return this item that is from another store that is not Walmart." not "I'd like to return this item you carry.")? I mean, the word "return" itself implies it should be originally from the store.[/quote]
"Return" doesn't necessarily mean "return to the store it was originally bought from". It could mean, "return to retail" or "return to manufacturer".

Anyway, whether or not this can be done successfully without lying to the clerk isn't really relevent to the legality of the situation. I think it's pretty clear from Walmart's written policy and comments from people that might actually have a clue (like managers) that Walmart is willing to give store credit for items purchased at other stores. The clerk should be acting on behalf of Walmart and should be carrying out this intention. However, what the clerk should be doing and what the clerk does are two different things and it may be necessary to lie to the clerk to get him to do what he should be doing. Now, I personally think it is morally wrong to lie to people, but it isn't against the law as long as you aren't cheating anyone.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
Full disclosure: despite what I probably said earlier in this thread (being against flipping), I did engage in an act of flipping this week. I feel ashamed, and there's no excuse. Long story short, I found a 360 bundle on the cheap a few weeks ago ($500 for platinum, 2 games, and a wireless controller). Well, I knew that I wanted one of the games, and was iffy on the second. Thank the maker for marketplace demos, as I found out how bad this Burnout-with-guns wannabe was, without having to open the package myself. So, I went to a store and told the clerk "I'd like to exchange this, but don't have a receipt." (my words precisely). Ten minutes later, I ended up with Fight Night Round 3. Do I feel bad for flipping? Yeah. Do I feel like a hypocrite? Yeah.

But I'm a hypocrite with Fight Night Round 3. Forgive my rationalizations, but I somehow do not expect to purchase any more games this year that I knowingly did not want, so this will be my flipping in toto for quite some time. I don't blame me, I blame the bundles! (OK, and me too).[/QUOTE]

Well, that's not SO bad - at least you just exchanged it for an equivalent game of the same value. That doesn't really hurt the store. You didn't get $60 cash for it :D.

Hell, I've taken a few games the grandparents sent the kids that we already had and returned them to Target and TRU - and I was very up front about it. I said these were gifts, I have no idea where they came from, could I exchange them for other games? It was a bit iffy at both places, but it worked (gave me the lowest sale value in history at Target but that was OK - I'm sure they made money on the exchange though!).
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Depends. I'd argue that, legally, you have to *say* "I bought it here" or "it was a gift from my aunt in Des Moines, she bought it at a Wal-Mart." OTOH, there could be some legal implications that, upon the *act* of returning an item to a store, one agrees that the item was, in fact, purchased there. If the former is fraud, then you simply need to watch what you say. If the latter, then any act of flipping (save for trade-in exploitation) is illegal.[/quote]

I meant the act, although I wouldn't consider buying a game for $10 and then turning around and selling it for $50 legally flipping.


[quote name='chunk']First of all, if you go to the return counter at walmart and say, "This item was purchased at another store, but I'd like to return it here" how is that lying?[/quote]
I have a hard time believing that any person working at the return counter doing returns would allow an item to be returned after the person specifically stated that it was purchased at another store. I just don't buy it.

[quote name='chunk']Second of all, lying to the clueless Walmart clerk doesn't necessarily mean that you are defrauding Walmart. Defrauding requires that you lie in order to cheat. Lying in itself does not necessarily imply cheating and, since it is Walmarts policy to accept 3 returns without receipt per year per individual, regardless of where the items were purchased.[/quote]
The person doing the returns is employed by Wal-Mart. If you lie to them, you're essentially lying to Wal-Mart, which in turn is fraud. When lying to that person, you're defrauding him/her, and you're defrauding Wal-Mart.

As far as I know, the policy isn't 3 returns without receipt per year per individual, regardless of where the items were purchased. Again, I'm sure if you walked in and told the clerk that you didn't originally buy the item there, he/she would not allow the item to be returned.
 
Yes, it's wrong. It raises the prices for people who just want to buy the items. Flippers clear out the inventory everywhere so that you're forced to pay more money if you actually want the item when you could have just bought it for MSRP or even cheaper on clearance if not for flippers.
 
caggamers said:
Yes, it's wrong. It raises the prices for people who just want to buy the items. Flippers clear out the inventory everywhere so that you're forced to pay more money if you actually want the item when you could have just bought it for MSRP or even cheaper on clearance if not for flippers.
Click to expand...
Fifteen year bump for this?
 
Man, I wish I could go back 15 years ago.  Stockpile all my money and use it to flip consoles. 

To answer the 16 year old question by the original poster.  I think it is wrong morally, but ethically fine. 

16 years ago, I would be saying it was both morally and ethically wrong because there are better ways to make money/spend your time. 

Now, not having the money to buy even 1 Xbox Series X, 1 PS5, and 1 Nintendo OLED Switch for myself.  I believe if I had the cash, I so would be flipping consoles for a profit right now. 

 
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