Is our rich people trickling?

You know the argument. Cut taxes on the rich and the wealth trickles down. President Bush put through massive tax cuts for the wealthy in 2001. They stayed in place for a full 8 years. It seems like the perfect study of whether tax cuts for the wealthy spread the money around (at least I think it is, right?).
Feb. 17 (Bloomberg) -- The average income reported by the 400 highest-earning U.S. households grew to almost $345 million in 2007, up 31 percent from a year earlier, Internal Revenue Service statistics show.

The figures for 2007, the last year of an economic expansion, show that average income reported by the top 400 earners more than doubled from $131.1 million in 2001. That year, Congress adopted tax cuts urged by then-President George W. Bush that Democrats say disproportionately benefits the wealthy.

Each household in the top 400 of earners paid an average tax rate of 16.6 percent, the lowest since the agency began tracking the data in 1992, the statistics show. Their average effective tax rate was about half the 29.4 percent in 1993, the first year of President Bill Clinton’s administration, when taxes were increased.

The statistics underscore “two long-term trends: that income at the very top has exploded and their taxes have been cut dramatically,” said Chuck Marr, director of federal tax policy at the Center on Budget and Policy Priorities, a Washington research group that supports increasing taxes on high-income individuals.

The top 400 earners received a total $138 billion in 2007, up from $105.3 billion a year earlier. On an inflation-adjusted basis, their average income grew almost fivefold since 1992, the data show.

[...]

Almost three-quarters of the highest earners’ income was in capital gains and dividends taxed at a 15 percent rate set as part of Bush-backed tax cuts in 2003, the statistics show. Of the 400 earners, 289 paid a total effective federal tax rate of 20 percent or less in 2007, the last year for which figures were available, the data show.
70% of the top 400 earners in America (who average $345,000,000) pay less taxes as a percentage than someone making $60,000.

Extrapolating, the 400 rich families in total made $138 billion in 2007. The entire bottom 1/5 of the country of working adults together made $247 billion in 2007. 400 made 55.8% of what 24,000,000 Americans did put together.

Does this not kill the "regressive tax is good for everyone" argument?
 
When the economic crisis first started (when it looked like the rich might lose out a bit) it was like the media and a lot of the country smartened up for 5 minutes.

Now that the rich are once again insulated from everything it is back to freakshows and stupidity 24/7 while they watch the rest of us burn.
 
[quote name='speedracer']Does this not kill the "regressive tax is good for everyone" argument?[/QUOTE]

Nothing can kill that argument, not even the truth.
 
I do think tax cuts for the rich are a good idea, but with qualifiers.

If you are just hording money, and already have tons of money, tax them as much as anyone.

If you can show you are spending your money on things like other people's salaries, or otherwise growing your business, cut their taxes.
 
Almost three-quarters of the highest earners’ income was in capital gains and dividends taxed at a 15 percent rate set as part of Bush-backed tax cuts in 2003, the statistics show. Of the 400 earners, 289 paid a total effective federal tax rate of 20 percent or less in 2007, the last year for which figures were available, the data show.

from the article... 75% of the income that is taxable from the top 400 earners is invested in various markets. im pretty sure thats a good thing. they are paying capital gains taxes, not income taxes...

so if i read that right, then
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Nothing can kill that argument, not even the truth.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, not many supporters believe that it's good for everyone. They're just worried about their bottom line. Or for ideological reasons don't believe progressive taxes are fair etc. Those that say they believe it are just lying as it sounds better than saying they want to horde their money, or they just don't understand economics and believe trickle down economics actually works.
 
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[quote name='RAMSTORIA']from the article... 75% of the income that is taxable from the top 400 earners is invested in various markets. im pretty sure thats a good thing.[/quote]
It's an extremely effective way to create bubbles that turn into crisis by flooding markets with capital and by rewarding short selling and flips. Sound familiar? Not only that, but a pipefitter that works all day pays more on his income than they did playing video games all day. Fair?
they are paying capital gains taxes, not income taxes...
Right, but we're still talking about de facto income. The capital gains tax cut was explicitly a tax cut for the rich.
 
[quote name='speedracer']It's an extremely effective way to create bubbles that turn into crisis by flooding markets with capital and by rewarding short selling and flips. Sound familiar? Not only that, but a pipefitter that works all day pays more on his income than they did playing video games all day. Fair?[/quote]

well, im not going to argue about creating bubbles, everyone will agree thats not good. but unless you have show that the 400 people in question in the article were doing then, then its a moot point.

i would assume that the pipefitter would pay less income tax than these people, he wouldnt pay higher capital gains, so yes its fair. these 400 people pay the same sales tax rate? is that fair? yes, they are different types of taxes.

Right, but we're still talking about de facto income. The capital gains tax cut was explicitly a tax cut for the rich.

capital gains tax is already progressive, the bush tax cuts are going to expire next year. the pipefitters capital gains tax for his 401k is going to go up just as much if not more (by percentage) than these 400 folk. plus, the bush cuts dont effect quick flips, only long term (granted long term is a year).
 
[quote name='mykevermin']didn't we repeal the capital gains tax under Bush? Some nonsense about "double taxation" and whathaveyou?[/QUOTE]

Shhh. You're not supposed to know that.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']didn't we repeal the capital gains tax under Bush? Some nonsense about "double taxation" and whathaveyou?[/QUOTE]


yes yes, it lowered the tax. its going back up.
 
The rich already dont spend all/much of the income they get every time they get a check. A tax cut means it just gets invested in the place where you figure you can make the best return. If theres no demand in the market, they'd be stupid to invest that money into hiring people to provide a product or service that isnt being bought. Demand is what creates jobs, which is why tax cuts for the rich is baloney.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']The rich already dont spend all/much of the income they get every time they get a check. A tax cut means it just gets invested in the place where you figure you can make the best return. If theres no demand in the market, they'd be stupid to invest that money into hiring people to provide a product or service that isnt being bought. Demand is what creates jobs, which is why tax cuts for the rich is baloney.[/QUOTE]

Exactly, and why business majors are usually the biggest group of a college class and why most end up in finance rather than actually starting a business. Our free market rewards less risk taking...... moving numbers around is the way to get rich not innovating.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']didn't we repeal the capital gains tax under Bush? Some nonsense about "double taxation" and whathaveyou?[/QUOTE]

It was lowered, not eliminated. It's not double taxation anyway, since only the gains are taxed and not the principal. I would say, however, that the last thing we want to do in the current economy is to put a beatdown on capital flows. Higher capital gains taxes = less venture capital available for small businesses or startups. Just not a good idea at any time. Additionally, it's been proven that raising the capital gains tax results in LESS tax revenue for the government.

As for the income tax, yes, I'd say the OP is just further evidence of the mistake that was made in lowering tax rates for the wealthy (as well as everyone else too) in 2001-03. I can understand wanting to reduce tax burdens, especially on those who are middle class and below, but we should have fixed our fiscal situation vis-a-vis debt at that point, then lowered taxes for lower- and middle-class folks when the debt was under control or paid off. Right now, given the huge imbalances in the federal budget, we need to be raising taxes on the wealthy while cutting spending significantly.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']It was lowered, not eliminated. It's not double taxation anyway, since only the gains are taxed and not the principal.[/quote]

Nonono, that wasn't how the argument was framed when it was lowered (I'm still pretty confident it was eliminated, and would like to see a source showing me the opposite).

http://www.econlib.org/library/Enc/CapitalGainsTaxes.html

Here's an "encyclopedia" argument about it (insomuch as one believes an encyclopedia that comes from a politically motivated source and uses factual/scientific rhetoric to describe the contentious nature of whether or not it is double-taxation (hereafter referred to, pun intended, as the DTs)).

Actually it seems you and the link argue the same thing. Were both taxed prior to Bush? Was one eliminated under Bush? We could be pretending like we disagree but simply talking over each other's heads.

I would say, however, that the last thing we want to do in the current economy is to put a beatdown on capital flows. Higher capital gains taxes = less venture capital available for small businesses or startups. Just not a good idea at any time. Additionally, it's been proven that raising the capital gains tax results in LESS tax revenue for the government.

That last statement is a red herring. Raising the tax rate from 0% to ">0%" most certainly can not result in less tax revenue for the government. There's going to be a baseline at which efficiency is killed off, sure, and returns are dampened b/c tax rates are so high. But you need to mean what you say, and not set up a sentence so easily disregarded.

As for the income tax, yes, I'd say the OP is just further evidence of the mistake that was made in lowering tax rates for the wealthy (as well as everyone else too) in 2001-03. I can understand wanting to reduce tax burdens, especially on those who are middle class and below, but we should have fixed our fiscal situation vis-a-vis debt at that point, then lowered taxes for lower- and middle-class folks when the debt was under control or paid off. Right now, given the huge imbalances in the federal budget, we need to be raising taxes on the wealthy while cutting spending significantly.

couldashoulddawoulda. the people who voted for Bush 10 years ago wanted that cash then, like people in localities want that cash now. You think the stimulus is so bad, the public thinks the stimulus is so bad - why is it so popular among politicians? Even those who voted against it, who proselytized against it, who falsely claim is hasn't done a thing - these are the same people handing out Publisher's Cleainghouse-sized checks to fund projects in their home districts - in *your* home district, in *my* home district, that put you to work, or your friends to work, or your families to work.

That doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to dislike the stimulus; but we're grown ups trying to cram a complex bill that has not been tried before into a singular "good" or "bad" category. Like we do with taxes. And we're teeming with instant gratification. People hate the stimulus, but they'd be begging for a government bailout in its absence (that's the greatest irony, to me).

Again, couldashouldawoulda. I've been saying for over a decade (hell, since I was 17 at least) that marginal tax rates need to return to pre-Reagan levels at the very least. I said that the budget surplus needed to go to the debt in 2000. Voters decided that they wanted $300 checks from Dubya instead, to buy a family meal at "Chuck E Cheese" and have enough left over for the nice chair massager from "The Sharper Image."

We want out cake and we want to eat it too. It's more sickening, to me, to see people clamoring with their hands out waiting for their handouts from Dubya, than it is to see people, desparate and desolate in a time of economic crisis, hoping the government will keep them fed.
 
Well that's a good part of the problem isn't it - if you tell somebody they can have $25 today or $100 in a year they usually take the $25. It's seems like a natural thing, it's part of the irrationality that forms the dysfunctional markets that the same people take advantage of.
 
Those checks the government mailed out to everyone, if I recall, was very bipartisan. And I don't personally know any conservative person, or Bush supporter, that thought they were a good idea.

Raising taxes is not even something that should enter the discussion until spending and government size is drastically reduced first, and it's shown that doing so didn't free up enough $.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']And I don't personally know any conservative person, or Bush supporter, that thought they were a good idea.[/QUOTE]

Oh, horseshit.
 
Myke, I doubt you can even find one of the big conservative loudmouths that you all love to hate that thought they were a good idea. Nobody thought those checks being mailed out was a wise decision.

You honestly can say that you personally know a bunch of people that thought that last round of Pelosi/Bush refund checks were a great idea? Everyone was shaking their heads at it that I saw.

Granted, everyone happily cashed their checks, but that's a different story.
 
You have no recollection whatsoever of the 2000 campaign, do you? The conservatives used the surplus not to praise a federal government that balanced the budget for the first time in how many decades, they used the surplus to say Washington was taking too much of our money and we deserved OUR MONEY back. What the hell else did Bush run on? Transparency in government? Compassionate conservatism? His policies were flaccid. It was the money.

You're just denying history now. Might as well be claiming his running mate in 2000 was Thomas Eagleton originally.

EDIT: Let me try to get a frame of reference from you. Approximately when did "conservatives," in your view, stop supporting George W Bush and his policies? Doesn't have to be to the day - heck, I'll settle for a year: Conservatives stopped supporting George W Bush and his policies in 200_?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Nonono, that wasn't how the argument was framed when it was lowered (I'm still pretty confident it was eliminated, and would like to see a source showing me the opposite).

.[/QUOTE]

that may have been the argument, but thats not what happened. the only people who had capital gains eliminated were people the two lowest tax brackets, ie for the OPs pipefitter. people above those two tax brackets had capital gains lowered from 20% to 15%.

[quote name='mykevermin']

EDIT: Let me try to get a frame of reference from you. Approximately when did "conservatives," in your view, stop supporting George W Bush and his policies? Doesn't have to be to the day - heck, I'll settle for a year: Conservatives stopped supporting George W Bush and his policies in 200_?[/QUOTE]


whatever year this happened. ;)

bush_mission_accomplished.jpg
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Those checks the government mailed out to everyone, if I recall, was very bipartisan.[/quote]
The final version of the bill will provide quick rebates to most taxpayers and phase in other cuts over the next decade. Twenty-eight Democrats and one Independent joined the 211 Republicans who approved the bill in the House vote. One Independent and 153 Democrats voted against it.

On the Senate side, 12 Democrats voted with 45 Republicans and Jeffords to pass the bill. Republican Sens. John McCain of Arizona and Lincoln Chaffee of Rhode Island joined the 31 Democrats in opposition.
I guess by today's standards where Republicans refuse to vote yes on anything at all, then yea. 28 Dems out of 230 votes (12%) of support in the House and 25% of Dems in the Senate voted for it.
[quote name='thrustbucket']And I don't personally know any conservative person, or Bush supporter, that thought they were a good idea.[/quote]
Let's ask fightin John McCain. What do you think of the Bush 2001 tax cuts?
“I don’t think the governor’s tax cut is too big—it’s just misplaced. Sixty percent of the benefits from his tax cuts go to the wealthiest 10% of Americans—and that’s not the kind of tax relief that Americans need. … Bush wants to spend the entire surplus on tax cuts. I don’t believe the wealthiest 10% of Americans should get 60% of the tax breaks. I think the lowest 10% should get the breaks."
Geez. What a downer. Why would you think that McCain?
“We have no idea what our financial or economic situation will be ten years from now. … We may want to have the flexibility to provide significant tax relief for lower- and middle-income taxpayers. Other unforeseen issues may arise. The point is that we must think beyond the horizon."
Well that's not helpful. Glenn Bec... err, thrust hates McCain. Let's ask some of the kingpin talkers of the day.

Robert Novak:
The most enthusiastic congressional supporters of President Bush's proposed tax cut consider it much too small, but that's not all. They have reason to believe that government estimators [CBO], in both the administration and Congress, are up to their old tricks and badly underestimating tax revenue.
You sneaky bastards! Not only are the CBO underestimating the surplus left by Clinton, but are doing it not to protect the country's finances but because they're "up to their old tricks" for political reasons! This was truly a wise man. We miss you, Bobby.

Who else would qualify as a Bush supporter thrust? I don't even know where to begin or end since everyone you said didn't support it in fact did (or even argued it wasn't big enough!).

I think the interesting part of this is that no one questioned whether Clinton was responsible for massive fiscal prudence. The Republicans at the time were essentially arguing that Clinton was so successful that massive tax cuts were required. I wonder what the world would look like without that tax cut.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I guess I should have clarified, if it wasn't obvious, that I was referring to the 2008 rebate checks, not the tax cuts.[/QUOTE]
Oh. The 2001 cuts came with free money from the gubmint too.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I guess I should have clarified, if it wasn't obvious, that I was referring to the 2008 rebate checks, not the tax cuts.[/QUOTE]

What I said:
[quote name='mykevermin']I said that the budget surplus needed to go to the debt in 2000. Voters decided that they wanted $300 checks from Dubya instead, to buy a family meal at "Chuck E Cheese" and have enough left over for the nice chair massager from "The Sharper Image.[/QUOTE]

What you said in direct response to that:
[quote name='thrustbucket']Those checks the government mailed out to everyone, if I recall, was very bipartisan. And I don't personally know any conservative person, or Bush supporter, that thought they were a good idea.[/QUOTE]

Where do you get off trying to claim you were talking about the 2008 checks? What 2008 checks anyway? The individual rebate checks were in 2001 and 2005.

A hole. You're digging one.
 
Huh. I seem to recall rebate checks in 2001 (I know those happened) and in 2005 (like $150 or some shit everybody got, like a shitty christmas bonus from the fed).

Doesn't change that it's very clear we weren't talking about that anyway until thrust tried to weasel out of his argument of support.
 
Dear myke,

Usually when you get like this I just ignore it rather than try to explain myself, but I'm pretty effing bored at work.....

When you said
$300 checks from Dubya instead, to buy a family meal at "Chuck E Cheese" and have enough left over for the nice chair massager from "The Sharper Image.

I was immediately thinking of my check from the gov in 2008. I remember it clearly because I was confused as to why it was only the amount given to single people and I was married in 2007. I hardly knew the difference between a president and a pineapple in 2000/2001, so I honestly didn't recall any rebates clear back then, so I assumed you were referring to 2008.

BTW - I'm pretty sure we had discussions on here about them but it seems the search won't go beyond March of '08
 
I think it's obvious that thrust was talking about the 2008 checks since he called them the "Bush/Pelosi checks".

It's also pretty obvious that Myke was talking about the 2001 round of checks...
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Nonono, that wasn't how the argument was framed when it was lowered (I'm still pretty confident it was eliminated, and would like to see a source showing me the opposite).[/quote]

Here you go. Lowered, not eliminated. http://www.taxfoundation.org/taxdata/show/2088.html

That last statement is a red herring. Raising the tax rate from 0% to ">0%" most certainly can not result in less tax revenue for the government. There's going to be a baseline at which efficiency is killed off, sure, and returns are dampened b/c tax rates are so high. But you need to mean what you say, and not set up a sentence so easily disregarded.

You start from a point of misunderstanding, that capital gains taxes are currently 0%. They are not. The last time the capital gains tax was raised, less revenue came in from the capital gains tax.

couldashoulddawoulda. the people who voted for Bush 10 years ago wanted that cash then, like people in localities want that cash now. You think the stimulus is so bad, the public thinks the stimulus is so bad - why is it so popular among politicians? Even those who voted against it, who proselytized against it, who falsely claim is hasn't done a thing - these are the same people handing out Publisher's Cleainghouse-sized checks to fund projects in their home districts - in *your* home district, in *my* home district, that put you to work, or your friends to work, or your families to work.

Yes, this is true, except the part that the money put people to work. The "stimulus," by increasing government spending at the expense of decreasing private spending, caused unemployment to get worse, not better.

That doesn't mean that people aren't allowed to dislike the stimulus; but we're grown ups trying to cram a complex bill that has not been tried before into a singular "good" or "bad" category. Like we do with taxes. And we're teeming with instant gratification. People hate the stimulus, but they'd be begging for a government bailout in its absence (that's the greatest irony, to me).

I agree. I'm sure that whatever was done, if unemployment was as bad as it is now, people would be clamoring for something different.

Again, couldashouldawoulda. I've been saying for over a decade (hell, since I was 17 at least) that marginal tax rates need to return to pre-Reagan levels at the very least. I said that the budget surplus needed to go to the debt in 2000. Voters decided that they wanted $300 checks from Dubya instead, to buy a family meal at "Chuck E Cheese" and have enough left over for the nice chair massager from "The Sharper Image."

We want out cake and we want to eat it too. It's more sickening, to me, to see people clamoring with their hands out waiting for their handouts from Dubya, than it is to see people, desparate and desolate in a time of economic crisis, hoping the government will keep them fed.

Agreed on all points. I did not support the tax cuts in 2001-03 (could have accepted the cuts for the lowest-income folks, but certainly not the well-off) and felt the same way, that it should have gone to reduce the debt. Now, because of the shortsightedness of Republicans, Bush and the public, interest on the debt will be larger than defense or Medicare as part of the budget in another 10-15 years...and no matter how bloated or waste-filled those items are, at least we get something for them.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']1) Drunk. What am I specifically looking for in the tax foundation report?[/QUOTE]

it shows the capital gains tax for the last 20 years. the bush cuts only eliminate it for the bottom 2 tax brackets, everyone else had it lowered by 5%.

also, im drinking buffalo bills (local brewery) blueberry oatmeal stout. its surprisingly good. the blueberry is there, but its definitely a stout.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']You have no recollection whatsoever of the 2000 campaign, do you? The conservatives used the surplus not to praise a federal government that balanced the budget for the first time in how many decades, they used the surplus to say Washington was taking too much of our money and we deserved OUR MONEY back. What the hell else did Bush run on? Transparency in government? Compassionate conservatism? His policies were flaccid. It was the money. ...[/QUOTE]

A "humble foreign policy" was another big plank of his; a foreign policy with less nation building and interventionism. Which is laughable, in retrospect - our empire extended far beyond anything we've ever seen as a nation under him.

Kind of weird that the idea of cutting back on our trillion dollar empire isn't brought up, at all, during the debt discussions bantered about by media darling politicians.
 
[quote name='Feeding the Abscess']A "humble foreign policy" was another big plank of his; a foreign policy with less nation building and interventionism. Which is laughable, in retrospect - our empire extended far beyond anything we've ever seen as a nation under him.

Kind of weird that the idea of cutting back on our trillion dollar empire isn't brought up, at all, during the debt discussions bantered about by media darling politicians.[/QUOTE]

Excellent point. It's funny (tragic?) to recall Bush railing in campaign speeches about Clinton's reckless nation-building in Bosnia and Kosovo!
 
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