Israel criticized over Gaza flotilla attack

[quote name='IRHari']I thought Max Blumenthal was Jewish? How does that make him a jew hater?

If this was so clear cut I don't know why IDF doesn't release the unedited videos. I don't know why they confiscated all video/pictures taken by people on the flotillas. I don't know why IDF felt the need to falsely attribute communications received by the flotilla.[/QUOTE]

My god, don't you ever read posts or links? Blumenthal wasn't the target of my smear - the one who posted the link was.

AND, the article linked to the full unedited AUDIO that was claimed to be "doctored", which it wasn't, just edited. Everything anti-semetic said in the audio was still said no matter how many try to deny it. It was simply never confirmed that the remarks were from the flotilla. You probably need to be told that there were other ships accompanying the sacred aid flotilla.

I'll bet you're really fun at parties, or made fun of at parties.


And please stop believing these weapons were "improvised". I know, I know, there's a reason to keep using that word. The same reason to keep calling this an "aid" mission.
The pump is primed, the PR campaign icing has been spread, and now you war-mongering jew haters may get what you ultimately want. My guess is that allah must have finally gotten off his ass, talked to some imams, and said, "Good job guys, now let's get down to business"

Gaza blockade: Iran offers escort to next aid convoy
 
People who accept the personal propaganda diary of a self confessed Jew hater neesd to do some soul searching. Had he not decided to put himself in harms way, he wouldn't have been able to write a scathing attack against Israel. He knows how his bread is buttered. Since no one can win an all out war with Israel, he knows the media is the only arena in which he has any chance for victory. The blockade is only brutal to those who wish to provoke and commit violence against the IDF. All evidence proves none of this was improvised, it was planned, and executed with a perfect result.
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[quote name='IRHari'].[/QUOTE]

Ugg. You realize the "diary" evidence linked to in the post I was referring to had nothing to do with a Mr. Blumenthal ? English, motherfucker, do you speak it? Becuase you certainly can't read it. And you still didn't read and/or understand the blumenthal article of the "edited", not "doctored" audio because you have demonstrated no reading comprehension of said references.

Please, continue to engage in this conversation. By stark contrast you make mslut look intelligent.
 
Wait were you referring to the blog that I posted? THe one that all the jew haters write in?

I seriously don't know which post you're referring to or which diary you're talking about. You need to either post links or explain who it is that you're quoting.

THe Blumenthal thing was what MSut had posted and it he (blumenthal) is the jew who posted about the videos being doctored.
 
[quote name='IRHari']I thought Max Blumenthal was Jewish? How does that make him a jew hater?[/quote]

Anyone bmull says is a jew hater or america hater depending on how he feels that particular day.

He doesn't explain himself and never tries, these are the rules you play by when responding to him.

If this was so clear cut I don't know why IDF doesn't release the unedited videos. I don't know why they confiscated all video/pictures taken by people on the flotillas. I don't know why IDF felt the need to falsely attribute communications received by the flotilla.
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Consider who you are dealing with.

Like knoell bmull is intentionally ignoring the fact the Israelis were firing on (a mixture of "warning shots" and rubber bullets but still) on the ships before they landed.
 
helen-thomas.jpg

Jew Hater
 
I'm not going to debate the merits of one position or another.

I'm just wondering how many of those who are saying that it doesn't matter if the flotilla's intent was to push Israel's buttons are the same ones who spoke out against those troublemakers who wore red, white and blue on the fifth of May.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']
helen-thomas.jpg

Jew Hater[/QUOTE]

If its wrong to hate Jews, then I don't wanna be right.

Please Helen send me your digits so we can get together and "bloviate" on the "issues"

So Fine.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']My god, don't you ever read posts or links? Blumenthal wasn't the target of my smear - the one who posted the link was.

AND, the article linked to the full unedited AUDIO that was claimed to be "doctored", which it wasn't, just edited. Everything anti-semetic said in the audio was still said no matter how many try to deny it. It was simply never confirmed that the remarks were from the flotilla. You probably need to be told that there were other ships accompanying the sacred aid flotilla.

I'll bet you're really fun at parties, or made fun of at parties.


And please stop believing these weapons were "improvised". I know, I know, there's a reason to keep using that word. The same reason to keep calling this an "aid" mission.
The pump is primed, the PR campaign icing has been spread, and now you war-mongering jew haters may get what you ultimately want. My guess is that allah must have finally gotten off his ass, talked to some imams, and said, "Good job guys, now let's get down to business"

Gaza blockade: Iran offers escort to next aid convoy [/QUOTE]
So you're saying that when they were planning all this they said "Make sure we have plenty of random pipes laying around to use for weapons." I mean sure they brought some stuff like the flash bangs, I would too if I were going into a potentially dangerous situation. But pipes and flash bangs aren't exactly lethal weapons, especially against a professional military.


These people were down right diabolical in their planning. No one ever suspects the inanimate steel pipe.

200941522113968028.jpg


Stock pile of weapons.
 
You forgot that the captain of the boat they raided later admitted that the 'mercenaries' on board threw their guns overboard when they realized they were going to be raided.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']You forgot that the captain of the boat they raided later admitted that the 'mercenaries' on board threw their guns overboard when they realized they were going to be raided.[/QUOTE]

You forgot the link.

http://www.haaretz.com/print-editio...-taken-hostage-in-gaza-flotilla-raid-1.294114

"The Israel Defense Forces says that during the operation a number of pistols and an M-4 rifle were taken from soldiers, but they believe that the Turkish activists had other weapons. The captain of the ship told the naval commando chief that the guns were thrown overboard before the ship was completely taken over."
 
[quote name='Clak']So you're saying that when they were planning all this they said "Make sure we have plenty of random pipes laying around to use for weapons." I mean sure they brought some stuff like the flash bangs, I would too if I were going into a potentially dangerous situation. But pipes and flash bangs aren't exactly lethal weapons, especially against a professional military.[/QUOTE]
It's weird watching the double think. Bmull will crow about the aggressiveness of the Israeli military. He's boast of them dropping people with cold precision. He'll regale you with tales of the IDF special forces taking out this target or that and how living under siege every day for decades means Israel must by definition be all offensive if it is to survive.

And then when you have a whole boat full of people being air assaulted onto in the middle of the night by IDF forces, he'll explain that they should have known that the IDF forces would not be aggressive or kill people.

The collision of reality and reality is surreal.
During Israel's takeover of a Turkish ship in the Gaza-bound aid flotilla this week, some passengers tried to take captive three commandos who lost consciousness as a result of the activists' blows, according to early findings of a navy investigation. The three were dragged into one of the passenger halls below deck and were held there for several minutes.
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Wait a minute. Three SF soldiers are rendered unconscious, removed to a location away from the fighting, and not harmed in any way? How is it that these terrorist rioters out for blood that "were apparently experienced in hand-to-hand fighting" (lulz) don't immediately kill them?
The fourth commando, K., saw his team leader on the deck, with a Turkish activist holding the pistol he had grabbed from him and pointing it to his head. K. jumped from the rope and managed to shoot the activist holding the gun.
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Again wtf? You take a weapon from an SF soldier and hold it against him but don't immediately kill him? You maintain that posture long enough for a guy rappelling down a rope to see you as he is coming down, finish coming down, hit the ground, take a position, and kill you? These same guys with knives trying to kill commandos... are not killing commandos when given ample opportunity?

How am I reading this wrong? On AT LEAST two occasions, the people on board were perfectly able to kill IDF soldiers and chose not to. The IDF obviously didn't have the same issue. Huh.
[quote name='thrustbucket']You forgot that the captain of the boat they raided later admitted that the 'mercenaries' on board threw their guns overboard when they realized they were going to be raided.[/QUOTE]
Why would you choose to have guns on board to defend yourself and then at the point at which they become actually useful choose to not only not lock them up, but physically remove them from your arsenal unless you are explicitly giving up the ability to kill your "enemy"?

Terrorists that throw away their guns instead of using them against their hated enemies and then not kill their hated enemy when given opportunity. Something isn't adding up.
 
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[quote name='speedracer']
Terrorists that throw away their guns instead of using them against their hated enemies and then not kill their hated enemy when given opportunity. Something isn't adding up.[/QUOTE]

The most obvious explanation is that the guns were not meant to be used, exactly, but delivered. Why else turn down offers of other ports to dock and have your "relief aid" delivered for you, unless there are items in your cargo you don't want intercepted?

That, and, it was likely their orders to get rid of any weapons should they be boarded for PR reasons.

Nobody really knows though. Nobody knows except those that were there. However, it's a more plausible (and likely) explanation than a boat load of hippies.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']The most obvious explanation is that the guns were not meant to be used, exactly, but delivered. Why else turn down offers of other ports to dock and have your "relief aid" delivered for you, unless there are items in your cargo you don't want intercepted?

That, and, it was likely their orders to get rid of any weapons should they be boarded for PR reasons.

Nobody really knows though. Nobody knows except those that were there. However, it's a more plausible (and likely) explanation than a boat load of hippies.[/QUOTE]

...so wouldn't there have been ammo all over the place on the boats too? A gun without ammo is an unwieldy club. You really think that as they are being boarded in the middle of the night, they're chucking their guns overboard, and taking guns from the soldiers, and dropping those off in the ocean too? I think it's possible, but highly, highly, highly unlikely.
 
[quote name='speedracer']It's weird watching the double think. Bmull will crow about the aggressiveness of the Israeli military. He's boast of them dropping people with cold precision. He'll regale you with tales of the IDF special forces taking out this target or that and how living under siege every day for decades means Israel must by definition be all offensive if it is to survive.

And then when you have a whole boat full of people being air assaulted onto in the middle of the night by IDF forces, he'll explain that they should have known that the IDF forces would not be aggressive or kill people.

The collision of reality and reality is surreal.

Wait a minute. Three SF soldiers are rendered unconscious, removed to a location away from the fighting, and not harmed in any way? How is it that these terrorist rioters out for blood that "were apparently experienced in hand-to-hand fighting" (lulz) don't immediately kill them?

Again wtf? You take a weapon from an SF soldier and hold it against him but don't immediately kill him? You maintain that posture long enough for a guy rappelling down a rope to see you as he is coming down, finish coming down, hit the ground, take a position, and kill you? These same guys with knives trying to kill commandos... are not killing commandos when given ample opportunity?

How am I reading this wrong? On AT LEAST two occasions, the people on board were perfectly able to kill IDF soldiers and chose not to. The IDF obviously didn't have the same issue. Huh.

Why would you choose to have guns on board to defend yourself and then at the point at which they become actually useful choose to not only not lock them up, but physically remove them from your arsenal unless you are explicitly giving up the ability to kill your "enemy"?

Terrorists that throw away their guns instead of using them against their hated enemies and then not kill their hated enemy when given opportunity. Something isn't adding up.[/QUOTE]
again they knew they were going to be boarded, did you listen to the radio conversation? They knew it.

look at the damn video man, surely you dont think it is doctored to the point where the israelis added this part of these "humanitarians" who are throwing a soldier off the side of the boat, or just whipping a soldier on the ground with pipes. No those humanitarians were peaceful, they knew the soldier would land on a cloud, and the pipes were pillows!
 
[quote name='Knoell']again they knew they were going to be boarded, did you listen to the radio conversation? They knew it.

look at the damn video man, surely you dont think it is doctored to the point where the israelis added this part of these "humanitarians" who are throwing a soldier off the side of the boat, or just whipping a soldier on the ground with pipes. No those humanitarians were peaceful, they knew the soldier would land on a cloud, and the pipes were pillows![/QUOTE]

And, of course, their response had nothing to do with being boarded before dawn...in international waters...by helicopter...while the Isrealis were throwing sound/smoke bombs. Clearly they didn't think they were under attack but instead were a well-trained, ex-military group of hardened, bloodthirsty TERRORISTS mercenaries trying to sneak weapons into Gaza so they could murder some Jews.

again, the people killed on board

1. Ibrahim Bilgen, 61, an electrical engineer from Siirt. Member of the Chamber of Electrical Engineers of Turkey. Ran as a Saadet (Felicity) Party candidate in the Turkish general election of 2007 and the Siirt mayoral election of 2009. Married with 6 children.

2. Ali Haydar Bengi, 39, ran a telephone repair shop in Diyarbakir. Graduate of Al-Azhar University, Cairo (Department of Arabic Literature). Married to Saniye Bengi; four children - Mehunur (15), Semanur (10) and twins Mohammed and Senanur (5, pictured below).

3. Cevdet Kiliçlar, 38, from Kayseri. A graduate of Marmara University's Faculty of Communications; formerly a newspaper journalist for the National Gazette and the Anatolia Times. For the past year he was a reporter and webmaster for the Humanitarian Relief Foundation (IHH). Married to Derya Kiliçlar; one daughter, Gülhan, and one son, Erdem.

4. Çetin Topçuoglu, 54, from Adana. Former amateur soccer player and taekwondo champion, who coached Turkey's national taekwondo team. Married to with one son, Aytek.

5. Necdet Yildirim, 32, an IHH aid worker from Malatya. Married to Refika Yıldırım; one daughter, Melek, aged three.

6. Fahri Yaldiz, 43, a firefighter who worked for the Municipality of Adiyaman. Married with four sons.

7. Cengiz Songür, 47, from Izmir. Married to Nurcan Songür; six daughters and one son.

8. Cengiz Akyüz, 41, from Iskenderun. Married to Nimet Akyüz ; three children - Furkan (14), Beyza (12) and Erva Kardelen (nine).

9. Furkan Dogan, 19, in his senior year at Kayseri High School where he was awaiting the results of his university entrance exams; hoped to become a doctor. Loved chess. Son of Dr. Ahmet Dogan, Assoc Prof at Erciyes University. A Turkish-American dual national, with two siblings.
Click to expand...
 
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[quote name='Knoell']again they knew they were going to be boarded, did you listen to the radio conversation? They knew it.

look at the damn video man, surely you dont think it is doctored to the point where the israelis added this part of these "humanitarians" who are throwing a soldier off the side of the boat, or just whipping a soldier on the ground with pipes. No those humanitarians were peaceful, they knew the soldier would land on a cloud, and the pipes were pillows![/QUOTE]
I was in the military. The second my ship is boarded in international water by a opposing force air assaulting in with guns drawn, all bets are off. Throwing your ass off my boat would be least of your worries, dude.
 
Knoell is ignoring the fact that the Israelis were firing on the ships before boarding.

Is it intentional dishonesty or failing at reading comprehension?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Knoell is ignoring the fact that the Israelis were firing on the ships before boarding.

Is it intentional dishonesty or failing at reading comprehension?[/QUOTE]

This continued conflict really has proven more moments of WTF-edness for me, than any other I can recall. There have been times where one of the side's actions or comments were so outlandish, insane, counter-productive, or just outright wrong, I found myself completely incapable of playing devil's advocate. This particular situation at least has a few actions where a rational person could form an opinion to back either side, but it requires a person to make up their own facts, or jump to conclusions.

Other moments in this conflict have left me utterly baffled at how a rational person could craft an opposing view and truly believe it.
 
[quote name='IRHari']You're stupid berzirk. Israel has a right to defend itself.[/QUOTE]

I agree with your first sentance. I disagree with your second. Helen Thomas, Helen Thomas, IDF, bagels, anti-semite....meshugenah.
 
You know, according to what weapons were used against the boarding soldiers, these people were about as well armed as those Whale Wars people on Animal Planet.

I just picture a commando yelling out "Look out, they've got pipes and flash bangs!!!!" Aren't these guys supposed to be some of the best trained soldiers in the world? They can't handle a few lightly armed folks on a boat? Aren't they supposed to be well trained in hand to hand combat? You can't disarm somebody with a damn pipe?
 
[quote name='Clak']You know, according to what weapons were used against the boarding soldiers, these people were about as well armed as those Whale Wars people on Animal Planet.

I just picture a commando yelling out "Look out, they've got pipes and flash bangs!!!!" Aren't these guys supposed to be some of the best trained soldiers in the world? They can't handle a few lightly armed folks on a boat? Aren't they supposed to be well trained in hand to hand combat? You can't disarm somebody with a damn pipe?[/QUOTE]

Now its the soldiers fault that they couldn't defend themselves against a pipe?
 
[quote name='Msut77']Knoell is ignoring the fact that the Israelis were firing on the ships before boarding.

Is it intentional dishonesty or failing at reading comprehension?[/QUOTE]

Proof please, all I have seen is them dropping from the helicoptor into a mob that was attacking them, and a unsuccesful boat to boat boarding in which the soldiers were again being attacked. What proof have you seen that shows the Israeli soldiers attacking first, besides maybe crowd dispersing paintball shots? And I haven't even seen any footage of them shooting those first.

I am really enjoying you guys ignoring the proof that is out there, and giving this suppressed proof in which you have never seen much more credit. Because if a video isn't out there of the Israelis going in shooting with live fire they must have suppressed it. It can't not exist right?
 
[quote name='Sporadic']And, of course, their response had nothing to do with being boarded before dawn...in international waters...by helicopter...while the Isrealis were throwing sound/smoke bombs. Clearly they didn't think they were under attack but instead were a well-trained, ex-military group of hardened, bloodthirsty TERRORISTS mercenaries trying to sneak weapons into Gaza so they could murder some Jews.

again, the people killed on board
[/QUOTE]

Again I point you towards the radio conversation in which the ships were repeatedly directed to dock at a different port. You would think that if the captain had any sense he would dock there. You would also think that the crew and passengers would be aware that they were trying to break a blockade and that the Israelis would not allow it.

Are you really claiming that the "humanitarians" on board did not know this? My god, you guys are either ignorant, or just dishonest, or both.

The group that funded this "mission" has stated its purpose of breaking the blockade, this wasn't simply some humanitarian ship that randomly got raided by Israeli soldiers, the primary goal of the ships were to break the blockade, the secondary goal was to deliver humanitarian aid.

Pair that with the videos of the soldiers being attacked as they dropped down one by one, and I am failing to see how these "humanitarians" are peaceful at all.

Let me ask you this, if the "humanitarians" aboard those ships simply and peacefully done as ordered, would anyone of died?

Noone obviously deserved to die, or should have died but to claim the Israelis mission was to kill them, or terrorize them, and not simply deter them from breaking the blockade is ridiculous.
 
Have you ever seen these guys train? Granted I can't be sure it's the entire Israeli military, but from what I've seen the hand to hand training they receive should be more than enough to disarm somebody with a piece of pipe. Kind of embarrassing otherwise.

On the issue of whether they were peaceful, I'll say again that being peaceful does not mean you do not defend yourself. Unless they attacked the Israelis first (and i don't mean as they repelled down from the helicopter, that was the start of a commando raid) then they were peaceful up to the time that the Israelis instigated violence by boarding their ship. You cannot board a ship while carrying weapons (or at least what looks like weapons in the dark) without expecting resistance.

It's the same way that protests can turn violent once police start firing tear gas and other things into crowds.
 
[quote name='Clak']Have you ever seen these guys train? Granted I can't be sure it's the entire Israeli military, but from what I've seen the hand to hand training they receive should be more than enough to disarm somebody with a piece of pipe. Kind of embarrassing otherwise.

On the issue of whether they were peaceful, I'll say again that being peaceful does not mean you do not defend yourself. Unless they attacked the Israelis first (and i don't mean as they repelled down from the helicopter, that was the start of a commando raid) then they were peaceful up to the time that the Israelis instigated violence by boarding their ship. You cannot board a ship while carrying weapons (or at least what looks like weapons in the dark) without expecting resistance.

It's the same way that protests can turn violent once police start firing tear gas and other things into crowds.[/QUOTE]

First of all it was dark. Second, they were rappelling down a rope which allowed an entire group to surround them as the descended. Third, there were entire groups of humanitarians surrounding them and attacking at the same time. Again, I'm not sure where that notion that IDF forces are supermen and can repel 8 attackers at once.

Fourth, you obviously did not watch any of the video - even the humanitarians' video of them dropping grenades, weilding long chains and firehoses at Israeli boats BEFORE the helicopter insertion. And since you can't comprehend multiple attackers at once overtaking a commando as he descends onto a deck, you obviously haven't seen any of those videos either. Although, they're probably just CGI "doctored" videos anyway of IDF getting stabbed, beaten with pipes and thrown overboard.

Fifth, IDF fired warning shots over the bow of the ships, they were not firing into the ships, no matter how many terrorist sympathizers want to propagate this lie.


The Irish flotilla seems to have avoided any violent entanglements. There may have been actual humanitarians on that convoy who weren't bloodthirsty Jew haters.
 
Yep, didn't watch any of the videos, you're absolutely right. I didn't see any of them running around the ship either, nope didn't watch any of the video.

OH SHIT THEY HAVE CHAINS AND WATER HOSES!!!

You realize how ridiculous it is to think this was some sort of legitimate attack on the commandos? A legitimate attack would have been them firing upon them with real weapons. Waving chains and spraying them with water was a way of keeping them off the boat. Another thing that doesn't make any sense, at least not in the case of a profssional group of soldiers, is that they repelled onto the boat even while they must have seen the mob waiting for them. Why the hell would you do this? I guess I could chalk it up to incompetence, but I'd like to think the IDF is more competent than that.I don't think I ever said they fired into the ships.

Few other things, do blood thirsty Jew haters deserve aid? Would bloodthirsty Palestinian haters deserve aid? How would you feel if the Palestinians blockaded Israel? Would it be legitimate?
 
[quote name='Clak']Yep, didn't watch any of the videos, you're absolutely right. I didn't see any of them running around the ship either, nope didn't watch any of the video.

OH SHIT THEY HAVE CHAINS AND WATER HOSES!!!

You realize how ridiculous it is to think this was some sort of legitimate attack on the commandos? A legitimate attack would have been them firing upon them with real weapons. Waving chains and spraying them with water was a way of keeping them off the boat. Another thing that doesn't make any sense, at least not in the case of a profssional group of soldiers, is that they repelled onto the boat even while they must have seen the mob waiting for them. Why the hell would you do this? I guess I could chalk it up to incompetence, but I'd like to think the IDF is more competent than that.I don't think I ever said they fired into the ships.

Few other things, do blood thirsty Jew haters deserve aid? Would bloodthirsty Palestinian haters deserve aid? How would you feel if the Palestinians blockaded Israel? Would it be legitimate?[/QUOTE]

If the "humanitarians" brought firearms and shot the IDF boarding party, the story would have been written completely differently. There's PR value in using clubs instead of guns. Even when you outnumber your enemy 10 to one, you still appear to be the underdog. Hell, even George lucas knew that with the goddamn ewoks. Those threatening little cannibal bastards wouldn't have gotten any sympathy if they had slaughtered the stormtroopers with laser cannons.

I do have to agree with you about dropping outnumbered commandos onto the deck of a ship with armed insurgents. They should have disabled the ship and towed it to port. But there's always the chance they could have sunk the ship while attempting to disable it and that could have resulted in even more lives lost. But, there's no going back now.

The Irish ships didn't seem to have the same problem and came through the incident unscathed. I just don't understand how fucking with Israel this way is in any way helping the people in Gaza.
 
I have to believe that the way they handled the first ship had something to do with them not hurting anyone aboard the Irish ship. If it had been first it probably would have ended in a similar fashion. These people obviously don't see the blockade as legitimate and were acting accordingly. I don't see the what the problem would be with inspecting the ships and letting them on their merry way. That is communicaitng that to the ship and sending non threatening inspectors to search the ship, not a bunch of commandos in a night time raid.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Proof please[/quote]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire

besides maybe crowd dispersing paintball shots?
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As I pointed out before, they were firing what were apparently live "warning shots" and then rubber bullets etc.; people heard bullets and then saw people on the ship struck and collapse.

This is something you have taken great pains to ignore.

I am really enjoying you guys ignoring the proof that is out there
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So far no one here has sunk down to your level, bmull excluded of course since he is the absolute zero of stupid misdirection.
 
"It was dark."

Holy shit. To think of all the things I could do if that defense was rock solid. Or if I simply believed it to be.
 
[quote name='berzirk']This continued conflict really has proven more moments of WTF-edness for me, than any other I can recall. There have been times where one of the side's actions or comments were so outlandish, insane, counter-productive, or just outright wrong, I found myself completely incapable of playing devil's advocate. This particular situation at least has a few actions where a rational person could form an opinion to back either side, but it requires a person to make up their own facts, or jump to conclusions.

Other moments in this conflict have left me utterly baffled at how a rational person could craft an opposing view and truly believe it.[/QUOTE]

Knoell, I have seen your behavior in the healthcare thread, seen you defend torture and take a stab at quasi-birtherism.

Give me a fucking break.
 
[quote name='berzirk']This continued conflict really has proven more moments of WTF-edness for me, than any other I can recall. There have been times where one of the side's actions or comments were so outlandish, insane, counter-productive, or just outright wrong, I found myself completely incapable of playing devil's advocate. This particular situation at least has a few actions where a rational person could form an opinion to back either side, but it requires a person to make up their own facts, or jump to conclusions.

Other moments in this conflict have left me utterly baffled at how a rational person could craft an opposing view and truly believe it.[/QUOTE]

Knoell, I have seen your behavior in the healthcare thread, seen you defend torture and take a stab at quasi-birtherism.

Give me a fucking break.

Strell,

"It was dark" is his back up defense used when hurling random accusations of Jew hatred doesn't work.
 
[quote name='Msut77']http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire



As I pointed out before, they were firing what were apparently live "warning shots" and then rubber bullets etc.; people heard bullets and then saw people on the ship struck and collapse.

This is something you have taken great pains to ignore.



So far no one here has sunk down to your level, bmull excluded of course since he is the absolute zero of stupid misdirection.[/QUOTE]

Msut, I usually disagree with everything you post, hell you could post a smiley and I'd find a way to disagree with it, but this last post was brilliant. Haa haa haa. The last line is ne'er sig-worthy.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Why else turn down offers of other ports to dock and have your "relief aid" delivered for you, unless there are items in your cargo you don't want intercepted?
[/QUOTE]

There is a good reason for that. Because Israel does not allow most humanitarian supplies in. As an Israeli politician said, paraphrasing "we are going to put the Palestinians on a diet." Watch the Glenn Greenwald spanking above.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I'm looking forward to the next flotilla escorted by Turkey's military.[/QUOTE]

Turkey flotillas are delicious. They make me so Hungary. And Budapest.
 
You know its pretty gosh darn cool of Israel to let these "terrorists" go! They must be soooo bad and evil that keeping them in a prison or their executed body in Israel would be so bad for Israel!!! I think I can smell the evil!!!

Remember, that the IDF PR retracted their initial claim that there were 40+ al Qaeda on the ships.


Activist denies 'terrorist' tag
http://english.aljazeera.net/news/middleeast/2010/06/20106710195865856.html
Israeli authorities are defying international criticism of last week's raid on the Gaza aid flotilla, in which nine people were killed.

They are now claiming that five passengers on board the Mavi Marmara were "active terrorists".

Israel's "terrorist" list includes two Turks, one French, and two US citizens.

Ken O'Keefe, a former US marine, who is on the list, is accused of being a "radical anti-Israel activist" whom the Israelis say wanted to "train a commando unit" for Hamas.

But speaking to Al Jazeera's Veronica Pedrosa, O'Keefe denied the allegation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=z82VocK-C8c




Israel Flotilla Raid w/ MJ Rosenberg of Media Matters Action Network
(Hmmm... Rosenberg... MUST be one of those "self-hating Jews". Even though he describes himself as a Zionist. Oh yeah, and that Goldstone guy. DEF a pro-Zionist self-hating Jew.)
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW_n0qqfWME&feature=youtube_gdata
 
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http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Midd...dom-Flotilla.-Is-Israel-s-Gaza-blockade-legal
Israel claims its flotilla raid was legal under the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea. Israel says the law entitles it to enforce a blockade, even in international waters.

Clause 67 of San Remo does allow interdiction of neutral ships in a war among states if, as the clause spells out, the ship is “reasonably” suspected of “breaching a blockade.” Yet San Remo is not a consensus treaty or legally binding, according to the Red Cross; moreover, it doesn’t offer authority for extending military jurisdiction into open seas without a formal conflict.

But few legal experts agree that Israel can suspend the paramount UN Charter on the Law of the Sea to expand a blockade overnight or preemptively intercept ships.

Under the UN charter, vessels on the high seas are subject to the jurisdiction of the flag state of that vessel. No one can board. Exceptions include: a vessel that doesn’t fly a flag, a vessel suspected of being pirated, or vessels suspected of violating international sanctions, such as North Korean ships thought to carry nuclear materials. Even carrying weapons at sea doesn’t violate international law.

That’s why most international jurists say Israel cannot legally justify the boarding of a sovereign ship protected under the charter. “In legal terms, the Turkish ship [the biggest in the aid flotilla] was Turkish territory,” argues former British Ambassador Craig Murray, a fellow at the University of Lancaster School of Law.

Marcelo Kohen, a law professor at Geneva’s Graduate Institute of International Studies, agrees that the requirements needed to claim a San Remo justification were not complete. “Hamas is not a state," he says. "There is also at present a cease-fire on Gaza," whereas San Remo is assumed to be relevant in a state of war, says Kohen.

"Under [Israel's] logic one could maintain a maritime blockade unendingly," he adds. "It only requires one party to consider itself as being in a ‘state of war.’ ”

Gaza specialist Sara Roy at Harvard University, an author and frequent critic of Israeli policy, argues that legal questions can distort more basic issues: “After its 2005 withdrawal from Gaza, Israel claims no longer to be an occupier. It claims no responsibility, but acts with total control. Meanwhile, the international community pays the bills and feeds the people.”
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='Msut77']http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2010/jun/01/gaza-flotilla-eyewitness-accounts-gunfire



As I pointed out before, they were firing what were apparently live "warning shots" and then rubber bullets etc.; people heard bullets and then saw people on the ship struck and collapse.

This is something you have taken great pains to ignore.



So far no one here has sunk down to your level, bmull excluded of course since he is the absolute zero of stupid misdirection.[/QUOTE]

Still curious as to how your story quotes accuracy of the events of that "attack" from someone who was hiding in the bathroom, and someone who was on a different ship, and yet you willingly ignore the video, and saying it is israeli propaganda.

Also quit with the personal insults, its pretty easy to assume moral superiority when all you do is react to peoples posts. Pick and choose which posts to answer, which posts have that tiny misconception you can exploit.
 
I wish Knoell was equally outraged when Israel 'picks and chooses' which video clips to release, which clips have that omgoutragemoment that you can exploit.

Like I said, if this was so cut and dry, that Israel was right and the flotilla was wrong, they should release all videos/pictures taken by everyone. They have nothing to lose....right?
 
[quote name='IRHari']I wish Knoell was equally outraged when Israel 'picks and chooses' which video clips to release, which clips have that omgoutragemoment that you can exploit.

Like I said, if this was so cut and dry, that Israel was right and the flotilla was wrong, they should release all videos/pictures taken by everyone. They have nothing to lose....right?[/QUOTE]

Funny. That's what I thought about the backroom deals with Nelson and the SEIU.
 
[quote name='IRHari']I wish Knoell was equally outraged when Israel 'picks and chooses' which video clips to release, which clips have that omgoutragemoment that you can exploit.

Like I said, if this was so cut and dry, that Israel was right and the flotilla was wrong, they should release all videos/pictures taken by everyone. They have nothing to lose....right?[/QUOTE]

? Regardless of what happened after, the video proves that the soldiers were attacked upon boarding, Israeli troops may have resorted to more lethal means to defend themselves but the point still stands that they were attacked as they were boarding. I don't know, what other video would prove that the Israelis killed people before they boarded?

The only thing that will happen if they released footage of Israelis defending themselves with lethal means is to spark outrage that they killed "humanitarians" even though they were defending themselves. It would be the same thing that is going on now, noone cares that they were defending themselves, only that "humanitarians" died and that should never happen. Video of it will only make things worse. The way you guys are treating them now, can you blame them that they do not want to stoke the flames?
 
[quote name='Knoell']It would be the same thing that is going on now, noone cares that they were defending themselves, only that "humanitarians" died and that should never happen. Video of it will only make things worse. The way you guys are treating them now, can you blame them that they do not want to stoke the flames?[/QUOTE]
I must be misunderstanding. Are you advocating that a government intentionally withhold information from its people and the world in order to protect itself politically?

I can't be seeing that.
 
Just a questions for "intellectuals" such as yourself:

If the blockade is not legal, does Israel have any right to inspect the ship?

...

[quote name='Knoell']? Regardless of what happened after, the video proves that the soldiers were attacked upon boarding, Israeli troops may have resorted to more lethal means to defend themselves ... [/QUOTE]

Are trying to argue the people on the ship killed themselves?

[quote name='Knoell']...but the point still stands that they were attacked as they were boarding. I don't know, what other video would prove that the Israelis killed people before they boarded?[/QUOTE]

Right. The Israelis were boarding a piece of Turkish property in international waters. Is it relevant when the soldiers killed people on the boat? Does it really matter when the act of war started?

[quote name='Knoell']The only thing that will happen if they released footage of Israelis defending themselves with lethal means is to spark outrage that they killed "humanitarians" even though they were defending themselves. [/quote]

If I walked over to my neighbor's house hours before dawn and kicked down her door, that video of me shooting her when she pulled a knife on me would anger a lot of people.

[quote name='Knoell']It would be the same thing that is going on now, noone cares that they were defending themselves, only that "humanitarians" died and that should never happen.[/QUOTE]

See. You're getting it. Israel killing ANYBODY on a Turkish ship in international waters delivering humanitarian aid should never happen.

[quote name='Knoell']Video of it will only make things worse. The way you guys are treating them now, can you blame them that they do not want to stoke the flames?[/QUOTE]

I don't blame them. The guilty want as little proof as possible against them. Videos fully documenting their act of war against Turkey would piss people off. Turkey could probably ask its allies in NATO to stand with it against Israeli aggression.
 
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