Israel criticized over Gaza flotilla attack

[quote name='speedracer']I must be misunderstanding. Are you advocating that a government intentionally withhold information from its people and the world in order to protect itself politically?

I can't be seeing that.[/QUOTE]

Isn't this fun?
 
[quote name='Knoell']Also quit with the personal insults[/quote]

What insult(s)?

I pointed out your behavior in other threads and how you defended torture and birtherism.

Pick and choose which posts to answer

Says the guy who puts others on his "ignore list" explicitly for the purpose of doing this.
 
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[quote name='Knoell']? Regardless of what happened after, the video proves that the soldiers were attacked upon boarding, Israeli troops may have resorted to more lethal means to defend themselves but the point still stands that they were attacked as they were boarding. I don't know, what other video would prove that the Israelis killed people before they boarded?

The only thing that will happen if they released footage of Israelis defending themselves with lethal means is to spark outrage that they killed "humanitarians" even though they were defending themselves. It would be the same thing that is going on now, noone cares that they were defending themselves, only that "humanitarians" died and that should never happen. Video of it will only make things worse. The way you guys are treating them now, can you blame them that they do not want to stoke the flames?[/QUOTE]

The Israeli soldiers illegally boarded the Turkish ship in international waters at night after firing "warning shots" on it; of course the people on the boat are going to defend themselves and have every right to.

Oh, you mean the soldiers? It's hardly self-defense because the soldiers never should have been on board in the first place; they illegally boarded a vessel at sea with intent to take it over, which is an act of war. In no way can that be considered "self-defense" because they instigated the attack. Had they waited until the boat hit Israeli waters they'd have actual authority to request boarding.
 
The only thing this blockade succeeded in is tightening Hamas's grip on Gaza. Ironic that Netanyahu is further compounding the error that his mentor Sharon made by creating Hamas.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Just a questions for "intellectuals" such as yourself:

If the blockade is not legal, does Israel have any right to inspect the ship?

...
[/QUOTE]

No they don't. The blockade has been in effect since 2007, the attacks from Gaza confirm that there is a conflict between Israel, and Gaza, and the San Remo Manual says that water blockades can be done. It also says that inspections of ships that are confirmed to be attempting to break the blockade can be inspected in international waters, if the ship does not stop or change course, it can be captured.

As the radio tape proves, the ship was warned that it was breaking the blockade, the ship responded with insults, and some legitimate opinionated responses, but decided not to change course, or go to the port of Ashdod.
At this point if Israel should not have boarded the ships what should they have done? Let them go on past? Ask them nicer to sail to Ashdod? Israel has an interest in securing a blockade, just like the "humanitarians" had an interest in breaking it. The difference here is that when Israel went to enforce its interest, that is deemed legal for the time being, the humanitarians escalated it by attacking the israelis as they were boarding.



Are trying to argue the people on the ship killed themselves?
Right. The Israelis were boarding a piece of Turkish property in international waters. Is it relevant when the soldiers killed people on the boat? Does it really matter when the act of war started?

Yes legality of the blockade aside, it does matter when the people on the ship attacked the soldiers, or when if the soldiers attacked the people. It is the difference between self defense and murder.

Act of war? If you want to escalate it to that, then wouldn't it be an act of war for turkey to illegally (break the blockade) push through unknown (the israelis did not know what was on the ships) items into gaza? Not to mention, again I will tell you that the group funding the operation, has claimed that they chose ships that fly turkish flags because they thought it would give them a better chance to break the blockade with no altercation.

For you all to claim that these "humanitarians" were oblivious to the situation until Israel started "going in shooting" is ridiculous.


If I walked over to my neighbor's house hours before dawn and kicked down her door, that video of me shooting her when she pulled a knife on me would anger a lot of people.

If someone tried sailing from Canada to the US (through the great lakes), after they just stocked up on some cheap pharmaceuticals that the people in our country desperately need and ignored the coast guard telling them they are crossing illegally, would they have a right to board them? and if they resisted and tried stabbing one, would they hesitate to shoot them? Thats the difference (among other things) between my example and the real one. You guys would hopefully not be too upset with the persons death ( I wont hold my breath) and yet you are flipping out when the same thing happens on a larger scale with israel.

I don't blame them. The guilty want as little proof as possible against them. Videos fully documenting their act of war against Turkey would piss people off. Turkey could probably ask its allies in NATO to stand with it against Israeli aggression.


Way to twist my words, but the jury already has its verdict against the israelis. Nothing short of a video of the "humanitarians" attempting to behead the soldiers would change that. Do you really think an Israeli soldier shooting someone trying to stab him is really going to ease the criticisms of the israelis? It would likely increase tension, and is not worth putting on display now. I bet for the most part the evidence gets released in the months to come.
 
[quote name='speedracer']I must be misunderstanding. Are you advocating that a government intentionally withhold information from its people and the world in order to protect itself politically?

I can't be seeing that.[/QUOTE]

I am not advocating it, I am saying the world isn't them a chance. Like I said to Foc, the jury already has its verdict, nothing short of the "humanitarians" attempting to behead the israelis will gain goodwill towards them. I am saying that them releasing it on Youtube probably isnt the best idea. I am fairly certain whatever investigation takes place that evidence will be in view, but again they are not going to put it on youtube for us to see.
 
[quote name='Knoell']No they don't. [/QUOTE]

Very good. Aside from Israel, can you provide some links of countries stating the blockade is legal?

I mean, dafoomie has spanked you several times on this point and I don't feel like reposting his links.

...

As far as anything else, nothing that occurred during the raid can justify the raid.

Something before (ie. a legal blockade) or something after (ie. finding weapons capable of defeating Israel) could be used to justify the raid, but what happened during the raid can't be used to justify the raid.

Let me help you out for preraid conditions: not complying with a foreign country in international waters isn't justification and calling a foreign country a name in international waters isn't justification. Countries are run by adults, not children.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Very good. Aside from Israel, can you provide some links of countries stating the blockade is legal?

I mean, dafoomie has spanked you several times on this point and I don't feel like reposting his links.

...

As far as anything else, nothing that occurred during the raid can justify the raid.

Something before (ie. a legal blockade) or something after (ie. finding weapons capable of defeating Israel) could be used to justify the raid, but what happened during the raid can't be used to justify the raid.

Let me help you out for preraid conditions: not complying with a foreign country in international waters isn't justification and calling a foreign country a name in international waters isn't justification. Countries are run by adults, not children.[/QUOTE]

The United States. Oh but the US is just biased right?

The flotilla was heading towards gaza, there was no doubt about that. do you even know where the raid took place besides international waters?

So now in a blockade, you have to find something illegal in every inspection, or else the inspection is not justifiable?

With no spin, the facts are:

Humanitarian aid was heading towards Gaza with a primary objective to break the blockade, and a secondary objective of delivering aid.
Israel radios the ship and tells it the gaza waters are closed and to dock at the port of Ashdod.
The humanitarian ship makes the decision to keep going, with the full intention of breaking the blockade.
Israel fires warning shots at the ships and then attempts to board but scares the humanitarians? and is attacked by the humanitarians as they are boarding.
To protect their soldiers Israelis are authorized to use live fire.
9 humanitarians die as a result and more are injured.

Which of these facts do you deny?

What part of your international waters defense protects the ship from breaking the blockade? Was the ship not going to break the blockade? Did the Israelis make a mistake and target a ship that wasn't going to break the blockade? What do you suggest the Israelis did instead?
 
[quote name='Knoell']The United States. [/QUOTE]

Link please. I saw a story where a minority of Reps and Senators were offering carefully worded support, but nothing legally binding.
 
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/gaza_blockade
Palestinian liaison official Raed Fattouh, who coordinates the flow of goods into Gaza with Israel, said that soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy were now permitted. He said some products have already entered Gaza, and others would cross in the coming days.
What exactly does banning that stuff accomplish? Did they think that not having shaving cream would cause men to go crazy with beard rage?
 
[quote name='Clak']http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/gaza_blockade
Palestinian liaison official Raed Fattouh, who coordinates the flow of goods into Gaza with Israel, said that soda, juice, jam, spices, shaving cream, potato chips, cookies and candy were now permitted. He said some products have already entered Gaza, and others would cross in the coming days.
What exactly does banning that stuff accomplish? Did they think that not having shaving cream would cause men to go crazy with beard rage?[/QUOTE]

Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
Per int'l law, collective punishment is ILLEGAL. Starving (or "dieting") a population is inhuman and illegal as well.

Israel has not officially declared war against the Palestinians as int'l law would apply and the Palestinians WOULD HAVE TO BE BETTER TREATED.

Israel wants to and is engaging in the ethnic cleansing so that they can get the millenia old historical Israel back.
 
[quote name='Knoell']? Regardless of what happened after, the video proves that the soldiers were attacked upon boarding, Israeli troops may have resorted to more lethal means to defend themselves but the point still stands that they were attacked as they were boarding. I don't know, what other video would prove that the Israelis killed people before they boarded?

The only thing that will happen if they released footage of Israelis defending themselves with lethal means is to spark outrage that they killed "humanitarians" even though they were defending themselves. It would be the same thing that is going on now, noone cares that they were defending themselves, only that "humanitarians" died and that should never happen. Video of it will only make things worse. The way you guys are treating them now, can you blame them that they do not want to stoke the flames?[/QUOTE]

Video released by ISRAEL. No, they have no history of covering up atrocities. SARCASM in case you couldn't figure that out.

The IDF's track record of attacking activists, even journalists, without provocation and using excessive force is long and despicable.
 
[quote name='Knoell']The United States. Oh but the US is just biased right? [/QUOTE]
It is obvious the US side's with its ALLY. But we have many allies. And we don't side with them to the degree that we side with Israel. Simply refer to the number of times we are the lone backer of Israel in the int'l community when Israel's actions have been condemned by UN Resolutions.

The United States versus the World at the United Nations by William Blum
http://www.thirdworldtraveler.com/Blum/USvsWorldUN_WBlum.html

With no spin, the facts are:
You should follow that with "according to Israel" as you are parroting their unconfirmed PR lines. Which they have already had to retract many lies.

What part of your international waters defense protects the ship from breaking the blockade? Was the ship not going to break the blockade? Did the Israelis make a mistake and target a ship that wasn't going to break the blockade? What do you suggest the Israelis did instead?

The argument for a blockade COULD hold IF Israel had declared war. But since it has not (for obvious reasons), this blockade is ILLEGAL. Therefore it is LEGAL for anyone to break that blockade.
 
[quote name='Knoell']I am not advocating it, I am saying the world isn't them a chance. Like I said to Foc, the jury already has its verdict, nothing short of the "humanitarians" attempting to behead the israelis will gain goodwill towards them. I am saying that them releasing it on Youtube probably isnt the best idea. I am fairly certain whatever investigation takes place that evidence will be in view, but again they are not going to put it on youtube for us to see.[/QUOTE]
So another way to say that is the government in question (let's not even make this about Israel) shouldn't make the incontrovertible proof of what happened public because it isn't the best idea (politically?) and because the rest of the world seems to have made up its mind about what happened.

That's crazy talk man. When you faction in a world view that government is almost always a part of the problem, it's down right schizophrenic.
[quote name='Knoell']With no spin, the facts are:

Humanitarian aid was heading towards Gaza with a primary objective to break the blockade, and a secondary objective of delivering aid.
Israel radios the ship and tells it the gaza waters are closed and to dock at the port of Ashdod.
The humanitarian ship makes the decision to keep going, with the full intention of breaking the blockade.
Israel fires warning shots at the ships and then attempts to board but scares the humanitarians? and is attacked by the humanitarians as they are boarding.
To protect their soldiers Israelis are authorized to use live fire.
9 humanitarians die as a result and more are injured.

Which of these facts do you deny?[/QUOTE]
You're leaving important facts out.

The ship was tacitly sponsored by your second most important ally in the world.
The nature of the ship (maximum media exposure) dictates a nuanced approach (we do live in the real world here).
Facts 1 and 2 here logically mean there is nothing on the ships that would cause backlash, hence nuance is doubly necessary.
The nature of the politics of your governing coalition dictates a hyper reactive response (srsly, can we stop pretending Lieberman doesn't exist?).
The people on the ship, 100% capable of killing the soldiers, explicitly choose not to do so.
Your "blockade" has been broken before without incident.
[quote name='joeboosauce']Israel wants to and is engaging in the ethnic cleansing so that they can get the millenia old historical Israel back.[/QUOTE]
I've agreed somewhat generally with most of what you posted above except this. Sure, Lieberman and his far right nutjobs are holding power and should be condemned, but that's a wide brush you're using to paint the Israeli body as a whole and not fair. Anymore than it's fair when others painted all Americans as George Bush war loving psychos. It also allows people to pivot away from your other reasonable comments.

You won't change opinions with comments like that.
 
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[quote name='speedracer']
I've agreed somewhat generally with most of what you posted above except this. Sure, Lieberman and his far right nutjobs are holding power and should be condemned, but that's a wide brush you're using to paint the Israeli body as a whole and not fair. Anymore than it's fair when others painted all Americans as George Bush war loving psychos. It also allows people to pivot away from your other reasonable comments. [/QUOTE]

I respectfully disagree. What would you consider the use of settlements to encroach and take over Palestinian land? The bulldozing of Palestinian homes, farmland, etc? Not sure you are aware of those as they aren't covered in the US media. And as of now and for decades, that has been official Israeli policy. Now, I don't believe all Jews or Israelis support this and I never said that. The state does. I know a lot of Jews who are against this and refer to this as ethnic cleansing as defined by int'l law.

In fact, numerous Israeli politicians have said they want to get rid of the Palestinians. And these right-wing views, unfortunately, manifest in official Israeli policy. Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians. Little condemnation of this de facto call for the destruction of a people.
 
[quote name='joeboosauce']I respectfully disagree. What would you consider the use of settlements to encroach and take over Palestinian land? The bulldozing of Palestinian homes, farmland, etc? Not sure you are aware of those as they aren't covered in the US media. And as of now and for decades, that has been official Israeli policy.[/quote]
I'm aware. But policy waxes and wanes and is not constant. The Israel of Bibi is not the Israel of Yitzhak Rabin. Remember, even the warrior king and despised-by-many Ariel Sharon left Gaza not so long ago. Bibi weaseled his way in with one of the most absurd coalitions you'll ever find. If you would have told me last election that piece of shit Ehud Barak wanted back in government bad enough to betray his voters and enter an alliance with Labour, Yisrael Beiteinu, and Likud to the exclusion of Kadima, I would have said you need to be put in a padded room for your safety.

But this too will pass. Yisrael Beiteinu will not pull the strings forever and rational liberalism in Israel will return to power. I just hope the earth is not so scorched that everyone refuses to speak... but it never seems to be as long as there are people in power willing to talk.
In fact, numerous Israeli politicians have said they want to get rid of the Palestinians. And these right-wing views, unfortunately, manifest in official Israeli policy. Golda Meir famously said there are no Palestinians. Little condemnation of this de facto call for the destruction of a people.
You can't hold one side to a higher standard of rhetoric. You know Hamas feels exactly the same as Likud and Yisrael Beiteinu. The truth is in reality and you're right to heap criticism on the Israelis (and in particular the "politicians", meaning Avigdor Lieberman, the pathetic Likud, and their bitches in Labour) for allowing the building and blockade to continue.

Just keep an even keel with an eye on the totality of the situation. As Shakespeare said, all are punished.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']The only thing this blockade succeeded in is tightening Hamas's grip on Gaza. Ironic that Netanyahu is further compounding the error that his mentor Sharon made by creating Hamas.[/QUOTE]

Do you really think this wasn't Netanyahu's intent? This will rile them up, bring more moderates into a strong anti-Israel mentality, maybe fire off a couple more rockets into an Israeli hillside somewhere, and allow the Israelis to cite self-defense when invading neighborhoods and raizing buildings with huge civilian casualties.

Sharon did it when he went for a tour of the al-Aqsa site, sparking that intifada and harsh Israeli "retaliation".

War criminals like Sharon and Netanyahu only need the slightest of events to justify mass killings. When they get it, they jump on it, then call the rest of the world anti-semites for not agreeing with them.
 
Repost
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Midd...dom-Flotilla.-Is-Israel-s-Gaza-blockade-legal
Israel claims its flotilla raid was legal under the San Remo Manual on International Law Applicable to Armed Conflicts at Sea. Israel says the law entitles it to enforce a blockade, even in international waters.

Clause 67 of San Remo does allow interdiction of neutral ships in a war among states if, as the clause spells out, the ship is “reasonably” suspected of “breaching a blockade.” Yet San Remo is not a consensus treaty or legally binding, according to the Red Cross; moreover, it doesn’t offer authority for extending military jurisdiction into open seas without a formal conflict.

But few legal experts agree that Israel can suspend the paramount UN Charter on the Law of the Sea to expand a blockade overnight or preemptively intercept ships.

Under the UN charter, vessels on the high seas are subject to the jurisdiction of the flag state of that vessel. No one can board. Exceptions include: a vessel that doesn’t fly a flag, a vessel suspected of being pirated, or vessels suspected of violating international sanctions, such as North Korean ships thought to carry nuclear materials. Even carrying weapons at sea doesn’t violate international law.

That’s why most international jurists say Israel cannot legally justify the boarding of a sovereign ship protected under the charter. “In legal terms, the Turkish ship [the biggest in the aid flotilla] was Turkish territory,” argues former British Ambassador Craig Murray, a fellow at the University of Lancaster School of Law.

Marcelo Kohen, a law professor at Geneva’s Graduate Institute of International Studies, agrees that the requirements needed to claim a San Remo justification were not complete. “Hamas is not a state," he says. "There is also at present a cease-fire on Gaza," whereas San Remo is assumed to be relevant in a state of war, says Kohen.

"Under [Israel's] logic one could maintain a maritime blockade unendingly," he adds. "It only requires one party to consider itself as being in a ‘state of war.’ ”

Gaza specialist Sara Roy at Harvard University, an author and frequent critic of Israeli policy, argues that legal questions can distort more basic issues: “After its 2005 withdrawal from Gaza, Israel claims no longer to be an occupier. It claims no responsibility, but acts with total control. Meanwhile, the international community pays the bills and feeds the people.”
 
[quote name='berzirk']Do you really think this wasn't Netanyahu's intent? This will rile them up, bring more moderates into a strong anti-Israel mentality, maybe fire off a couple more rockets into an Israeli hillside somewhere, and allow the Israelis to cite self-defense when invading neighborhoods and raizing buildings with huge civilian casualties.

Sharon did it when he went for a tour of the al-Aqsa site, sparking that intifada and harsh Israeli "retaliation".

War criminals like Sharon and Netanyahu only need the slightest of events to justify mass killings. When they get it, they jump on it, then call the rest of the world anti-semites for not agreeing with them.[/QUOTE]

This is EXACTLY what most people miss. Israel created Hamas which was not a political organization. They have succeeded in radicalizing Palestinians. This is a great primer on this.:

I am reposting this as its obvious people are missing a lot of facts.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hW_n0qqfWME&playnext_from=TL&videos=Ux5_W9D8P7o
 
The account of this journalist from the Flotilla counters the IDF lines on the encounter. Also, the fact that the IDF won't release all the other footage is for obvious reasons. As stated here, no one INDEPENDENT investigatory body would accept the IDF's edited video releases without all video being released.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3UHKLWIjeFo

EDIT: Gee, wonder why this guy or other passengers don't get airplay in the US.
And here is a good analysis of how mainstream US reporting completely misses the most basic journalistic lessons. Cenk Uygur has been doing some great analysis. He skewers MSNBC and Chris Matthews.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gTcGmyIGKHY&playnext_from=TL&videos=gvJXX9rPRQs
 
There's a video going around the American j00z list serv that purports to show guns, ammunition, bazookas, and million in euros being unloaded from the boat.

Strangely, they seem to be the only ones in possession of this video.
 
[quote name='speedracer']There's a video going around the American j00z list serv that purports to show guns, ammunition, bazookas, and million in euros being unloaded from the boat.

Strangely, they seem to be the only ones in possession of this video.[/QUOTE]

If that existed, it would have been released by now. Then again, if you want to do a good job editing with Photoshop, best not to rush this out. Seriously though, where did you hear this?
 
[quote name='joeboosauce']Israel's policy was summed up by Dov Weisglass, an adviser to Ehud Olmert, the Israeli Prime Minister, earlier this year. http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2006/apr/16/israel
'The idea is to put the Palestinians on a diet, but not to make them die of hunger,' he said. The hunger pangs are supposed to encourage the Palestinians to force Hamas to change its attitude towards Israel or force Hamas out of government.
Per int'l law, collective punishment is ILLEGAL. Starving (or "dieting") a population is inhuman and illegal as well.

Israel has not officially declared war against the Palestinians as int'l law would apply and the Palestinians WOULD HAVE TO BE BETTER TREATED.

Israel wants to and is engaging in the ethnic cleansing so that they can get the millenia old historical Israel back.[/QUOTE]


I'm just going to go ahead and say that this is nothing to do with "getting old historical Israel back". These two sides are clearly enemies. Hamas has been barraging Israel with rockets for years now, and Israel has escalated it. It is a clear fact that Israel is the nation that the nations around it have been trying to get rid of, and the land those nations lost is because they declared war on Israel. So don't give any crap about "ethnic cleansing", and taking over all the land they had 2000 years ago, cause nobody is going to listen to that garbage.
Also, I'm just going to put out the point that the collective punishment sounds an awful lot like what the U.S. did to the U.S.S.R. to end the Cold War. They forced the government to spend so much that the people starved. However, your point on this may be regarding Israel not having declared war, in which case I withdraw it.
 
Courtesy of Democracy Now:

http://www.democracynow.org/2010/6/10/headlines#9

Israeli Document: Gaza Blockade a Form of "Economic Warfare"

The McClatchy newspapers has obtained an Israeli government document that describes the blockade of Gaza not as a security measure but as a form of "economic warfare." Sari Bashi, the director of the Israeli group Gisha, said the documents prove that Israel isn’t imposing its blockade for its stated reasons, but rather as collective punishment for the Palestinian population of Gaza.


Wonder how bmulligan is going to deal with this.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Yes, it does. It means when approached by a millitary force when attempting to illegally sail toward a blockaded port, you submit to the authority. No one would have died at all had they not set upon the Israelis with "improvised" weapons like pipes that just lay around on ship decks, along with flash grenades.




Yes, if they weren't in a propaganda and public perception war, they would have just opened fire and hid behind civilian shields like the freedom fighters in gaza. And since you think Jews must be invincible, and being cracked on the head with a pipe can be shrugged off because it's not a real weapon, I suggest you stop your political dabbling and change the channel back to the WWF where chairs to the face don't really hurt people either.





Yes. "Doctored audio". According to another jew hater's post, the article in question stated:


So, the audio was not in it's original form and may not have come from the flotilla in question, but some of the jew hating terrorists DID communicate their anti-semitic, anti-american opinions. They just came from other ships in the convoy. It still exemplifies the intent of the group as a whole. Claiming they were humanitarians is a lie, no matter how many diaries are written. The video trumps the written word.

People who accept the personal propaganda diary of a self confessed Jew hater neesd to do some soul searching. Had he not decided to put himself in harms way, he wouldn't have been able to write a scathing attack against Israel. He knows how his bread is buttered. Since no one can win an all out war with Israel, he knows the media is the only arena in which he has any chance for victory. The blockade is only brutal to those who wish to provoke and commit violence against the IDF. All evidence proves none of this was improvised, it was planned, and executed with a perfect result.

The only travesty here is that the IDF didn't just lay down and let their commandos be murdered. That would have been the right thing to do. The humanitarians could have broken the blockade and rode victory across world newspapers for weeks. No one would have even cared about a couple dozen dead Jews.[/QUOTE]


I advise you to refrain from spouting out your heretical nonsense. The audio has been doctored, hell one of the people in the audio wasn't ON ANY OF THE SHIPS. It was faked using previous audio sources and footage. You admit the audio is not in its original form, do you not think for one, ONE SECOND that other modifications were made to it? You see several videos from multiple sources and the IDF release videos have distinct differents(lip movement, lip synchronization is off).

Do you honestly believe that Israel would release non-edited footage? The IDF is a media controlling military organization hell bent on portraying themselves and their country as "little orphan Annie". They want pity, if they don't get pity then they do not receive support and aid. They must always be the victim, they are good at playing the victim.

And I love how people throw the word Anti-Semite around as if it means "Against Israel". It's Anti - Middle East, which has been slowly re-defined to fit a propaganda campaign. My statements aren't made because I am an Anti-Semite, far from it, I am not because I have family in the surrounding countries and my beliefs much like yours and other peoples are the same. I have no qualms with anyone, or any country so long as all the BS is set aside and the truth can be known. Nobody deserves to live in long standing conflict for centuries as the Jews were, and how are the "arabs"(nice spin on this as well) are now. You would think they would work harder at settling down and making peace from their past hardships and the ones they are causing to others and unto themselves by pulling these tactics.

Finishing off, you ever think they threw in "anti-american" to get the US to back them? This whole deluge of garbage is something out of a horrible B movie. James Miller, killed by IDF, Yitzak Ribin killed by one of his own. Allegations were thrown initially at the Palestinians and trying to force blame on them but in the end the smear campaign failed just like it is now.

Hard to trust people who tried to kill innocents to undermine and point the finger at another country:

Mossad(Special Israeli Intelligence) were former terrorists themselves.

Egypt


  • In what was later known as the Lavon affair, Israeli agents attempted to discredit Egypt's government, headed by Nasser, in 1954, by bombing theaters, post offices and U.S. and British institutions in Cairo. The operation failed and the Israeli defence minister was forced to resign as a consequence.[25]
 
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[quote name='speedracer']I heard it on the tubes.

In case anyone cares what the video was, here is a debunk.

http://jonathanturley.org/2010/06/0...eapons-discovered-on-mavi-marmara-is-a-fraud/[/QUOTE]


Great find. The IDF story keeps falling apart. Now, that Turkish video clip posted by beerme, I will have to wait to see more info on.

Reminds me of the NUMEROUS videos I've seen of IDF and Israeli settlers beating and torturing Palestinians. There are about 60 in the playlist associated with this video. Apparently, these are NSFMSM (not safe for mainstream media).:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wFvM...08C64B289&playnext_from=PL&playnext=1&index=5

There are 2 clips in this one. Look at how the IDF beat with impunity. They know they can freely beat with impunity. It is the same impunity that black slaves would get beaten with.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0bdbA2Ka3Bo&NR=1
 
Last night Colbert had on Michael Oren, the Israeli ambassador to the US.

This exchange is one of the reasons I prefer Colbert to Stewart (most of the time):
Colbert remarked:
I want to say that I repudiate what Helen said. She’s a friend, but I repudiate everything she said. “Go back to Poland, go back to Germany.” That’s ridiculous. Israel is for Israelis. If anything, the Palestinians should go back to where they came from. (Audience laughs, as Oren hesitates.) Do you agree? Do you agree, sir? It’s time to get them back to wherever that was?
Oren:
Alas I don’t agree. I think there’s room for both of us to share this homeland: Palestinians living in their homeland, Israelis living in their homeland, in a position of permanent and legitimate peace.
 
I've noticed something throughout all of this,many people cannot differentiate between a person who is Jewish and a person who is an Israeli. I had to use the example that Jerry Seinfeld is Jewish, he is not however an Israeli. I wonder what percentage of Jews in Israel were actually born there? That is exactly what Helen Thomas was getting at, but leave it to the majority of folks to completely miss that.
 
[quote name='Clak']I've noticed something throughout all of this,many people cannot differentiate between a person who is Jewish and a person who is an Israeli. I had to use the example that Jerry Seinfeld is Jewish, he is not however an Israeli. I wonder what percentage of Jews in Israel were actually born there? That is exactly what Helen Thomas was getting at, but leave it to the majority of folks to completely miss that.[/QUOTE]

Well I wonder how many mexicans were actually born here in the US. I think they should go home. Oops. /sarcasm
 
I am loving this. One side posts a video, and it must be doctored. Another side posts a video, and it is the undying truth, yet it doesn't show anything. The only video that shows something even remotely harsh was the kicks to someone who was down (although you can't even see the person) and the claim that they executed him.

I love the post joeboosauce made with the video in which the lady narrates the video with nothing happening by saying "they went to the other boats with rubber bullets, but us, they came to kill us" and "we told everyone not to resist because we couldn't possibly win" but two minutes later she talks about "not having guns to fight back, so we had to use chairs and pipes".

Nope not propaganda at all, pure factual truth.
 
I know this is stupid but I have 10 minutes to burn.
[quote name='Knoell']I am loving this. One side posts a video, and it must be doctored. Another side posts a video, and it is the undying truth, yet it doesn't show anything.[/quote]
Could you point to where people suggested it was the undying truth or even where the group of people in this thread even wrote a supportive statement on behalf of the video. Just one. Thx.
Nope not propaganda at all, pure factual truth.
You don't strike me as the person I should take suggestions on biases from.
 
[quote name='speedracer']You don't strike me as the person I should take suggestions on biases from.[/QUOTE]

Come on, guy. He is basing his argument on the San Remo manual. He is basing his opinion on a book. That is a huge step forward.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Well I wonder how many mexicans were actually born here in the US. I think they should go home. Oops. /sarcasm[/QUOTE]

"Tell the Hispanics to get the hell out of America. . . . Go home. Mexico. Guatemala. And Panama and everywhere else." ?
 
Anyone watch Bill Maher tonight? Maddow was on with Bill Frist, it was awesome. She's usually the only reason I watch Meet The Press, which is why I've only seen it twice in the past year.

I didn't realize Maher was so pro-Israel. AIPAC has him by the BALLS.
 
[quote name='Rex_Banner']Israel deserves sactions. They've pulled this shit one too many times.[/QUOTE]

Because there is a long history of sanctions getting results from other countries with bad behavior.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Because there is a long history of sanctions getting results from other countries with bad behavior.[/QUOTE]

Ineffective, yes. Doesn't mean we aren't quick to issue them though.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Well I wonder how many mexicans were actually born here in the US. I think they should go home. Oops. /sarcasm[/QUOTE]
You continue to amaze me with every post you make. If it were actually possible to knock sense into someone I'd smash you with s sledge hammer.

[quote name='UncleBob']"Tell the Hispanics to get the hell out of America. . . . Go home. Mexico. Guatemala. And Panama and everywhere else." ?[/QUOTE]


You too.
 
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