It's 9-11 once again does anyone still care?
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OrangeCurtain
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I tend to see a difference between targeting and killing civilians with purpose (9/11) and targeting the enemy and accidentally killing civilians in an existing war zone.
OC
OC
mykevermin
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[quote name='OrangeCurtain']If you can find any evidence that anyone in the Twin Towers tried to kill anyone on those planes, I will give you a gold star.[/QUOTE]
I would expect that anyone who claims to be a history teacher would also have the basic cognitive capacity to recognize the World Trade Center as a specific target, but more importantly as a metaphor for western-style capitalism (that being the same western-style capitalism that has fostered our involvement in the middle east since the installation of Israel).
No, I doubt there were any direct threats from WTC employees to al qaeda, but to make that argument is absurd.
Then again, I'd also expect a history teacher to be able to provide remarkably deeper insight than some intellectual catchphrase that's bandied about just as much as "Git-R-Done" is these days.
So much for my expectations.
I would expect that anyone who claims to be a history teacher would also have the basic cognitive capacity to recognize the World Trade Center as a specific target, but more importantly as a metaphor for western-style capitalism (that being the same western-style capitalism that has fostered our involvement in the middle east since the installation of Israel).
No, I doubt there were any direct threats from WTC employees to al qaeda, but to make that argument is absurd.
Then again, I'd also expect a history teacher to be able to provide remarkably deeper insight than some intellectual catchphrase that's bandied about just as much as "Git-R-Done" is these days.
So much for my expectations.
OrangeCurtain
CAG Veteran
[quote name='mykevermin']I would expect that anyone who claims to be a history teacher would also have the basic cognitive capacity to recognize the World Trade Center as a specific target, but more importantly as a metaphor for western-style capitalism (that being the same western-style capitalism that has fostered our involvement in the middle east since the installation of Israel).
No, I doubt there were any direct threats from WTC employees to al qaeda, but to make that argument is absurd.
Then again, I'd also expect a history teacher to be able to provide remarkably deeper insight than some intellectual catchphrase that's bandied about just as much as "Git-R-Done" is these days.
So much for my expectations.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you should read the thread before you take a response out of context. That would involve reading deeper, which as much as you want me to do...you might want to try it yourself.
I was responding to the position that the terrorists were provoked. The WTC was a symbol (not a metaphor...use correct terminology when you are calling out someone's intelligence)...so why not hit it at night to minimize civilian losses? Obviously the whole point of being a terrorist is to instill terror. Thus there was a need to inflict as high a body count as possible. The WTC was not purely a symbolic target. They hit it at rush hour when as many people as possible would be in and around the building.
If you want to compare intellects, I am all for it. This was a discussion without personal attack until you decided to wade into the deep water where I am guessing you don't belong.
In the interests of keeping the thread on-topic, this will be my last post. If you want to flame, PM me...don't hijack, though it looks like you support such tactics. The last thing I expected on a day designed to honor the dead is having to deal with terrorist apologists, and what appears to be some latent anti-Semitism. Sad.
OC
No, I doubt there were any direct threats from WTC employees to al qaeda, but to make that argument is absurd.
Then again, I'd also expect a history teacher to be able to provide remarkably deeper insight than some intellectual catchphrase that's bandied about just as much as "Git-R-Done" is these days.
So much for my expectations.[/QUOTE]
Perhaps you should read the thread before you take a response out of context. That would involve reading deeper, which as much as you want me to do...you might want to try it yourself.
I was responding to the position that the terrorists were provoked. The WTC was a symbol (not a metaphor...use correct terminology when you are calling out someone's intelligence)...so why not hit it at night to minimize civilian losses? Obviously the whole point of being a terrorist is to instill terror. Thus there was a need to inflict as high a body count as possible. The WTC was not purely a symbolic target. They hit it at rush hour when as many people as possible would be in and around the building.
If you want to compare intellects, I am all for it. This was a discussion without personal attack until you decided to wade into the deep water where I am guessing you don't belong.
In the interests of keeping the thread on-topic, this will be my last post. If you want to flame, PM me...don't hijack, though it looks like you support such tactics. The last thing I expected on a day designed to honor the dead is having to deal with terrorist apologists, and what appears to be some latent anti-Semitism. Sad.
OC
[quote name='mykevermin']I would expect that anyone who claims to be a history teacher would also have the basic cognitive capacity to recognize the World Trade Center as a specific target, but more importantly as a metaphor for western-style capitalism (that being the same western-style capitalism that has fostered our involvement in the middle east since the installation of Israel).
No, I doubt there were any direct threats from WTC employees to al qaeda, but to make that argument is absurd.
Then again, I'd also expect a history teacher to be able to provide remarkably deeper insight than some intellectual catchphrase that's bandied about just as much as "Git-R-Done" is these days.
So much for my expectations.[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming the "gold star" comment was tongue-in-cheek since he is a teacher. Just because the WTC is a "metaphorical" target doesn't make it any more acceptable. If they don't like our involvement in that region of the world they have every right to feel that way. By no rational reasoning whatsoever, though, are their tactics anything more than deplorable. These people (terrorists and the people who support them) are zealots. There is no reasoning w/a zealot. If you don't completely agree w/a zealot they would, by and large, rather see you dead. This means, unfortunately, a zealot can only be dealt w/by using force. It's not pretty and should be a last resort but, to be brutally honest, it is sometimes necessary.
I was afraid I was going to get drawn into this. :|
No, I doubt there were any direct threats from WTC employees to al qaeda, but to make that argument is absurd.
Then again, I'd also expect a history teacher to be able to provide remarkably deeper insight than some intellectual catchphrase that's bandied about just as much as "Git-R-Done" is these days.
So much for my expectations.[/QUOTE]
I'm assuming the "gold star" comment was tongue-in-cheek since he is a teacher. Just because the WTC is a "metaphorical" target doesn't make it any more acceptable. If they don't like our involvement in that region of the world they have every right to feel that way. By no rational reasoning whatsoever, though, are their tactics anything more than deplorable. These people (terrorists and the people who support them) are zealots. There is no reasoning w/a zealot. If you don't completely agree w/a zealot they would, by and large, rather see you dead. This means, unfortunately, a zealot can only be dealt w/by using force. It's not pretty and should be a last resort but, to be brutally honest, it is sometimes necessary.
I was afraid I was going to get drawn into this. :|
September 11th isn't one of those events that you can just forget. Everyone to this day remembers exactly where they were and what they felt when those planes collided with the Twin Towers. Everyone remembers the fear they felt after hearing false rumors of "[insert major U.S. city] is next" or "[insert city you live in] is next". It is four years later, and YES, I still care about 9/11. Scorch made a comment about how September 11th is not a holiday, but he really contradicted himself.
[quote name='Scorch']hol·i·day Audio pronunciation of "holiday" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hl-d)
n.
1. A day free from work that one may spend at leisure, especially a day on which custom or the law dictates a halting of general business activity to commemorate or celebrate a particular event.[/QUOTE]
This is PRECISELY what September 11th was and IS today. September 11th, though the most tragic day in American history, should NEVER be forgotten.
[quote name='Scorch']hol·i·day Audio pronunciation of "holiday" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (hl-d)
n.
1. A day free from work that one may spend at leisure, especially a day on which custom or the law dictates a halting of general business activity to commemorate or celebrate a particular event.[/QUOTE]
This is PRECISELY what September 11th was and IS today. September 11th, though the most tragic day in American history, should NEVER be forgotten.
mykevermin
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[quote name='OrangeCurtain'](not a metaphor...use correct terminology when you are calling out someone's intelligence)...so why not hit it at night to minimize civilian losses? Obviously the whole point of being a terrorist is to instill terror. Thus there was a need to inflict as high a body count as possible. The WTC was not purely a symbolic target. They hit it at rush hour when as many people as possible would be in and around the building.[/quote]
met·a·phor Audio pronunciation of "metaphor" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-fôr, -fr)
n.
1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or “All the world's a stage” (Shakespeare).
2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: “Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven” (Neal Gabler).
For future reference.
Again, your bait-and-switch tactics would not have earned you high marks in debate club. I was simply pointing out that your initial response to the argument that 9/11 was *not* provoked was a straw man argument, and one that I called you out on. Your followup was another strawman, which, if I read correctly, implies that I am a terrorist sympathizer and an anti-semite.
So, if I'm correct thus far, I have nothing to debate intellectually with you, since you're clearly leagues below me. I don't care how many historical anecdotes you can cite, I don't care how many bland aphorisms you can cite, you've proven yourself to be an incorrect prat thus far, so I don't see anything changing that. If you want to accuse me of being pro-terrorist, then you're putting up more and more straw men to cover the fact that you have nothing truly intellectual to stand on.
met·a·phor Audio pronunciation of "metaphor" ( P ) Pronunciation Key (mt-fôr, -fr)
n.
1. A figure of speech in which a word or phrase that ordinarily designates one thing is used to designate another, thus making an implicit comparison, as in “a sea of troubles” or “All the world's a stage” (Shakespeare).
2. One thing conceived as representing another; a symbol: “Hollywood has always been an irresistible, prefabricated metaphor for the crass, the materialistic, the shallow, and the craven” (Neal Gabler).
For future reference.
Again, your bait-and-switch tactics would not have earned you high marks in debate club. I was simply pointing out that your initial response to the argument that 9/11 was *not* provoked was a straw man argument, and one that I called you out on. Your followup was another strawman, which, if I read correctly, implies that I am a terrorist sympathizer and an anti-semite.
So, if I'm correct thus far, I have nothing to debate intellectually with you, since you're clearly leagues below me. I don't care how many historical anecdotes you can cite, I don't care how many bland aphorisms you can cite, you've proven yourself to be an incorrect prat thus far, so I don't see anything changing that. If you want to accuse me of being pro-terrorist, then you're putting up more and more straw men to cover the fact that you have nothing truly intellectual to stand on.
It seems like the news is still focused on the hurricane when a 2 - 3 years ago, all they showed on TV was 9-11 features (like memorials). I think people still care they just don't show it as much. What I am annoyed about is that, it's 4 years later and Bin Laden is still free and alive. It seems like everyone forgot about him.
OrangeCurtain
CAG Veteran
[quote name='mykevermin']Again, your bait-and-switch tactics would not have earned you high marks in debate club. I was simply pointing out that your initial response to the argument that 9/11 was *not* provoked was a straw man argument, and one that I called you out on. Your followup was another strawman, which, if I read correctly, implies that I am a terrorist sympathizer and an anti-semite.
[/QUOTE]
You pointed ALL of that out by saying "unprovoked?" Wow, you are much better when you say fewer words than many.
Don't think yourself so important. You didn't really debunk anything I said, rather you refer to things as 'straw men' while not explaining how they are such things.
My remarks about being a terrorist apologist were directed at those who sought to place blame on the intelligence community and the executive branch rather than the terrorists who planned and carried out the attacks. Don't get so defensive. Methinks you protest too much. Must have struck a nerve.
And the WTC was NOT a metaphor for western-style capitalism. It WAS western-style capitalism. The WTC always represented capitalism, so therefore it cannot be a metaphor. A metaphor involves two things that are ORDINARILY used to describe different things. If you want to rely on the secondary definition, despite the word contradicts the primary definition, then continue to enlighten all of us.
Keep treading water princess.
OC
[/QUOTE]
You pointed ALL of that out by saying "unprovoked?" Wow, you are much better when you say fewer words than many.
Don't think yourself so important. You didn't really debunk anything I said, rather you refer to things as 'straw men' while not explaining how they are such things.
My remarks about being a terrorist apologist were directed at those who sought to place blame on the intelligence community and the executive branch rather than the terrorists who planned and carried out the attacks. Don't get so defensive. Methinks you protest too much. Must have struck a nerve.
And the WTC was NOT a metaphor for western-style capitalism. It WAS western-style capitalism. The WTC always represented capitalism, so therefore it cannot be a metaphor. A metaphor involves two things that are ORDINARILY used to describe different things. If you want to rely on the secondary definition, despite the word contradicts the primary definition, then continue to enlighten all of us.
Keep treading water princess.
OC
dreamvsps2
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bush doesnt care about 9/11
crazytalkx
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It never affected me personally but I still remember, just as something significant in the country's history, not a life changing tragedy.
zionoverfire
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And thus the Vs. forum kills another topic!
CappyCobra
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[quote name='redgopher']http://www.kontraband.com/show/show...EVID=1629&DISPLAYORDER=20041006140828&CAT=mov[/QUOTE]
Was that message approved by George W. Bush? It sickens me they used a colored coded fear meter and a few catch phrases to keep the masses in line while they ass raped our civil liberties with the 'Patriot' Act. If you as me, 9/11 was all too convienent of an excuse to push a bill that seemed so be planned out all too detailed for such a short turnaround.
Was that message approved by George W. Bush? It sickens me they used a colored coded fear meter and a few catch phrases to keep the masses in line while they ass raped our civil liberties with the 'Patriot' Act. If you as me, 9/11 was all too convienent of an excuse to push a bill that seemed so be planned out all too detailed for such a short turnaround.
I wasn't trying to turn this into a political matter. It always will be to a certain extent, but my intent was to see what the feelings and thoughts were four years down the road. Clinton had a chance to take out Bin Laden, but didn't. Who's to say that if he did, would it have prevented the attacks? Or would it have provoked something 100x's worse?
U2K Tha Greate$t
Banned
Do i care? yes
Do i care to a point? no
Meaning, things happen. Everything bad that happens is man's fault. Too bad people who aint did nothing have to get caught up in other people's foolishness. All those who died tho, we will see again, so the best thing to do is just move on and look for better days.
9/11 aint the only bad thing that happen in this world or land, it was just another normal day for me. Thus, this world is not normal, and there is no peace, * not yet anyway *
Its best to forget that day, serious. Dont forget the people who died tho, but forget the event.
Do i care to a point? no
Meaning, things happen. Everything bad that happens is man's fault. Too bad people who aint did nothing have to get caught up in other people's foolishness. All those who died tho, we will see again, so the best thing to do is just move on and look for better days.
9/11 aint the only bad thing that happen in this world or land, it was just another normal day for me. Thus, this world is not normal, and there is no peace, * not yet anyway *
Its best to forget that day, serious. Dont forget the people who died tho, but forget the event.
Trancendental
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[quote name='OrangeCurtain']My remarks about being a terrorist apologist were directed at those who sought to place blame on the intelligence community and the executive branch rather than the terrorists who planned and carried out the attacks.[/QUOTE]
Get real. Of course the terrorists are to blame - hell, I bet there are a dozen fanatics willing to take their place right now, and if they act in such a way that proves this intent then they all deserve to be caught and tried in a court of law (or taken by force if circumstances dictate that)
However I argue that this tragedy could have been thwarted at many levels. I mean, a group of close-knit guys take flight classes and yet they aren't interested in learning how to land? The financing of the entire operation must have run into the millions, Bin Laden had financed attacks before - why wasn't the intelligence agency tracking this? And airline security was way too lax in the years leading up to the disaster.
One of the primary reasons I pay the government is to prevent massively destructive acts like this from happening. They did not do their job. That is why I will not excuse the intelligence agency of blame for not knowing of this incident (even though noone was fired for dropping the ball on 9/11) and then excuse their leadership at the executive branch. The buck has to stop somewhere.
Get real. Of course the terrorists are to blame - hell, I bet there are a dozen fanatics willing to take their place right now, and if they act in such a way that proves this intent then they all deserve to be caught and tried in a court of law (or taken by force if circumstances dictate that)
However I argue that this tragedy could have been thwarted at many levels. I mean, a group of close-knit guys take flight classes and yet they aren't interested in learning how to land? The financing of the entire operation must have run into the millions, Bin Laden had financed attacks before - why wasn't the intelligence agency tracking this? And airline security was way too lax in the years leading up to the disaster.
One of the primary reasons I pay the government is to prevent massively destructive acts like this from happening. They did not do their job. That is why I will not excuse the intelligence agency of blame for not knowing of this incident (even though noone was fired for dropping the ball on 9/11) and then excuse their leadership at the executive branch. The buck has to stop somewhere.
Trancendental
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[quote name='"slidecage"']if your talking about overseas the sad thing is once a baby dies they will just have another one and another one and another one.[/QUOTE]
Yes, it would be great if we could provide funding to teach those people about birth control.
However the only money that the American government will provide has to go to reducing overpopulation through abstinence education only. Now, even if we could give everyone free condoms I am not naive enough to think that the problem will dissappear, but every bit counts and we cannot continue to treat this issue with the same out-of-touch Victorian morality that characterizes our current approach.
Yes, it would be great if we could provide funding to teach those people about birth control.
However the only money that the American government will provide has to go to reducing overpopulation through abstinence education only. Now, even if we could give everyone free condoms I am not naive enough to think that the problem will dissappear, but every bit counts and we cannot continue to treat this issue with the same out-of-touch Victorian morality that characterizes our current approach.
Trancendental
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[quote name='OrangeCurtain']For the record, I teach The Long March, Trail of Tears, Wounded Knee and subsequent Indian Relocation movements and the Dawes Act when we deal with the struggles between the native peoples and the 'new' Americans. In hindsight, were those positive moments in our history? No. Were they unavoidable given the universal belief by the U.S. citizenry that it was our Manifest Destiny to possess everything West of the Mississippi? Yes. We were the technological superior and we took that which we could not negotiate for. Such is the way of the world my friend. Equating the deaths of 300 (as per Wounded Knee) which comes during a period of continuing violence in the area and saved more lives in the end because it ENDED armed conflict in the region with an unprovoked attack (9/11) solely on civilians that claims 9x the lives is pretty ignorant.
OC[/QUOTE]
I would argue that these conflicts were avoidable. Noone forced Europeans to travel all the way to America in boats and then start moving west, giving Native Americans blankets with smallpox and handing out congressional medals of honor all around every time a few more were killed.
This part really floored me:
I guess when US government sanctioned fanatics massacre unarmed natives then it's sanctioned in your mind - after all it stopped the conflict (because let's face it - if you're trying to take a people's land and stop them from fighting, it's much easier to shoot, starve, strip and expose them to the winter, after all a dead man can't fight back)
OC[/QUOTE]
I would argue that these conflicts were avoidable. Noone forced Europeans to travel all the way to America in boats and then start moving west, giving Native Americans blankets with smallpox and handing out congressional medals of honor all around every time a few more were killed.
This part really floored me:
I guess when US government sanctioned fanatics massacre unarmed natives then it's sanctioned in your mind - after all it stopped the conflict (because let's face it - if you're trying to take a people's land and stop them from fighting, it's much easier to shoot, starve, strip and expose them to the winter, after all a dead man can't fight back)
guardian_owl
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Yep, I still remember where I was, I was heading to English Comp 2 class in the morning when someone said a plane had flown into the world trade center, I thought it was some kind of sick joke... On the other hand, the cynic in me has to ponder if a similar loss of life had come as a result of a terrorist attack in some midwest city like Topeka or Wichita, would we still even be talking about it now? After all, whenever people mention September 11th, they always talk about the WTC, no one ever mentions the striking of the pentagon or the 40 souls on flight 93 who resisted, putting an end to the 4th plane before it could strike another target in Washington, DC.
Another act of terror I will always remember is the dropping of a nuclear weapon on Hiroshima as my birthday is on August 6th.
Another act of terror I will always remember is the dropping of a nuclear weapon on Hiroshima as my birthday is on August 6th.
U2K Tha Greate$t
Banned
I could care less about some damn towers, excuse me man-made buildings. My only concern on 9/11 was about the people who died, not to mention those in W.C. too. So as always, its not about the damn flag and towers and planes its really all about the people.
And i think alot of people needs to understand this. I also dont blame bush for it , i blame satan and mankind in general.
And i think alot of people needs to understand this. I also dont blame bush for it , i blame satan and mankind in general.
Kayden
Banned
Do you think they're going to edit Luisiana out of movies like they did with the twin towers?
I knew they day it happened it wasn't going to be a big deal after the fact. Yes, 3000 people did die, but as someone already pointed out, 10s of thousands die everyday.
As far as preparedness... all they've really assured is that you can't trim your fingernails on a flight.
Are we supposed to make a big deal over everyday people died? Bad shit happens. Live with it.
I knew they day it happened it wasn't going to be a big deal after the fact. Yes, 3000 people did die, but as someone already pointed out, 10s of thousands die everyday.
As far as preparedness... all they've really assured is that you can't trim your fingernails on a flight.
Are we supposed to make a big deal over everyday people died? Bad shit happens. Live with it.
bread's done