Land of the free...So?

[quote name='SpazX']Honestly, since I don't have guns or anything, I think my life would be pretty much identical if I were living here in the US, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, Japan, the UK, well pretty much most of Europe. Provided I understood the language in all of them of course, since that would make quite a difference.

The US is nice, but I don't think it's necessarily the bestest most greatest country in the world. You have your good and bad in any country, but I don't think it would be much different living in any other western democracy, essentially.[/QUOTE]

Exactly!

Which is why I wonder; how come we are so stubborn to adopt the best of those countries to improve our own? I don't think it's just that some believe we are the best and don't need to change, though. I think there's some indifference, laziness, and apathy mixed in there among other things. I just can't get my head around the audacity of those still to this day proclaiming we're the greatest country on earth. But like someone mentioned it's probably just the fact that this is where they live and what they know.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Exactly!

Which is why I wonder; how come we are so stubborn to adopt the best of those countries to improve our own? I don't think it's just that some believe we are the best and don't need to change, though. I think there's some indifference, laziness, and apathy mixed in there among other things. I just can't get my head around the audacity of those still to this day proclaiming we're the greatest country on earth. But like someone mentioned it's probably just the fact that this is where they live and what they know.[/QUOTE]

I've traveled to many European and South American countries. They're nice places to visit.

You say you have this disdain for the arrogance, yet you aren't explaining why we are not the greatest country on the planet. Typical Lefitst fare here, folks. you can state the open ended query then offer non-solutions to imaginary problems.

Why don't you just spell out what other "policies" we need to enact to really make us great instead of playing a guessing game. And don't forget to state your reasons.
 
Well, like I've stated previously we are slow to adopt technology that would serve us more efficiently like Bullet trains, solar power, better internet, etc. We pay more for slower internet than almost every other developed nation. Less than 1% of our energy is solar.

Our healthcare is a mess. We pay more for healthcare than every other developed nation yet we are ranked lower than most other developed nations in terms of quality. Our obesity levels are outrageous.

Our education system. We are raising idiots. We consistently have lower test scores, despite spending more hours in school, than most of Asia. (Yes, they spend more days of the year in school but when you break it down by hour we are in school more time out of the year.)

We need to follow these other countries examples. What are they doing that we aren't?
 
The US has a god complex. We've been taught for so long that we're the greatest that we've applied that to everything. Once you have the greatest everything, you don't have to look to any other country for an example. We believe we're perfect and don't need to change.

America is basically a spoiled rich girl.
 
[quote name='HowStern']
Our education system. We are raising idiots. We consistently have lower test scores, despite spending more hours in school, than most of Asia. (Yes, they spend more days of the year in school but when you break it down by hour we are in school more time out of the year.)

We need to follow these other countries examples. What are they doing that we aren't?[/QUOTE]

Well, I'll say we have a problem with k-12 education, as far as higher education, we're still the best. I actually think we're also more inclusive with students, in that we're trying to educate everyone. I'll agree that something needs to be done about the k-12 education system though.
Quick edit, out of curiousity, where did you see that asian students in asian countries spend less time in school, last thing I read was that they spent both more time and more days in school?
 
[quote name='XxFuRy2Xx']It's the scale of illegal immigration that I'm speaking of. They come here for a reason, because it's possible to make a decent life here.
[/QUOTE]
Probably also has something to do with the US being the nearest first-world country to most of them.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Well, like I've stated previously we are slow to adopt technology that would serve us more efficiently like Bullet trains, solar power, better internet, etc. We pay more for slower internet than almost every other developed nation. Less than 1% of our energy is solar.

Our healthcare is a mess. We pay more for healthcare than every other developed nation yet we are ranked lower than most other developed nations in terms of quality. Our obesity levels are outrageous.

Our education system. We are raising idiots. We consistently have lower test scores, despite spending more hours in school, than most of Asia. (Yes, they spend more days of the year in school but when you break it down by hour we are in school more time out of the year.)

We need to follow these other countries examples. What are they doing that we aren't?[/QUOTE]

Well first of all, what your doing wrong is repeating what you keep saying without listening to anyone else.

As for the issues, alot of it is complicated. America was one the first to do buildouts of broadband (ISDN in the early to mid 80's, dsl in the late 80's, early 90's), and after all the buildouts, communication corporations are nervous. While buildouts in asian countries are new and all fiber. If we built out our infastructure today it would be all fiber, but we helped made the internet and help develop the world wide web with europe, and alot of companies want to sit on our current infastructure.

We make the majority of the worlds solar power, yet use very little. This again goes back to idiot executives who refuse to do anything with what we make. Eventually though, it'll be used, either when the executives die or a large energy crisis comes.

Our healthcare is good if you can pay for it, the problem of course are uninsured people.

The education system is a mess due to education associations feeding propoganda to kids, rather is right or left propoganda, and parents allowing kids to do what they want. Kids grow up today expecting everything to arrive on a silver platter and don't try to learn anything.

The basic facts though are, that none of these issues are as simple as saying, 'this is the problem, here is the fix', because these issues would take a large number of people/organizations to fix and not a magic wand, and none of it is as simple as blaming a political ideology or acting like America is a bad country, or a failing country due to them. All other first world countries have just as severe issues. It's easy to bitch and moan when your in the country, and there are probably people right now in Britain France, Japan, anywhere bitching about their country like the OP.
 
And btw, I've also had experience with Japan, so I'll bitch and moan about it.

My sister is married to a Japaese army sargeant, so I once had time there...

The only thing I can say is, nice women, nice cell phones. Pretty lights everywhere...

With that said...

I HATE JAPENESE HOMES! fucking closets are what they should be called, rented closets at super huge rates! A closet here is almost the size of a japanese apartment!

I also took time to look up japanese pc parts... If the pcs aren't general use or for business, you can't find them! It's hard as hell to find gaming pci-e cards, or high powered cpus, mainly due to japanese either having cell phones or consoles for gaming!

Sitting here with a core i7, 6 gigs of ram, and a gtx 260, on a 40" tv, I can personally say I wouldn't give a shit if Japan had a 1 gig fiber connection to every home, I wouldn't go back.

And btw, the rates for a ranted japenese closet is higher then most 2 bedroom apartments in America just to let ya know.

The simple fact is Japan is a different culture. It's not a magical place where everyone likes it better, it's a place where people love consoles and crazy anime crap, sleep in closets and spend most of their time outside.

I personally enjoy things like large pcs and cyber punk stuff like Deus Ex, or film Noir.
 
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[quote name='AdultLink']Well first of all, what your doing wrong is repeating what you keep saying without listening to anyone else.

As for the issues, alot of it is complicated. America was one the first to do buildouts of broadband (ISDN in the early to mid 80's, dsl in the late 80's, early 90's), and after all the buildouts, communication corporations are nervous. While buildouts in asian countries are new and all fiber. If we built out our infastructure today it would be all fiber, but we helped made the internet and help develop the world wide web with europe, and alot of companies want to sit on our current infastructure.

We make the majority of the worlds solar power, yet use very little. This again goes back to idiot executives who refuse to do anything with what we make. Eventually though, it'll be used, either when the executives die or a large energy crisis comes.

Our healthcare is good if you can pay for it, the problem of course are uninsured people.

The education system is a mess due to education associations feeding propoganda to kids, rather is right or left propoganda, and parents allowing kids to do what they want. Kids grow up today expecting everything to arrive on a silver platter and don't try to learn anything.

The basic facts though are, that none of these issues are as simple as saying, 'this is the problem, here is the fix', because these issues would take a large number of people/organizations to fix and not a magic wand, and none of it is as simple as blaming a political ideology or acting like America is a bad country, or a failing country due to them. All other first world countries have just as severe issues. It's easy to bitch and moan when your in the country, and there are probably people right now in Britain France, Japan, anywhere bitching about their country like the OP.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, but I don't give a fuck about what we helped build if we aren't going to actually use it.

And do you really want to wait for a large energy crisis to do something other countries already are?

I never said there is such thing as a problem-free country. Perhaps you are the one not listening. I clearly stated I wonder how we can go on ignoring possible solutions to our problems, like the ones I've listed - that other countries seemed to have tackled - because we think we're the best already.


Link about school hours for Docvinh
http://barbarafrankonline.com/blog.php/2009/10/02/do-kids-need-more-time-in-school/
Asian kids have about 10-20 more school days in the year but when you break it down hourly the U.S. kids are in school the most.
 
Nope, I never said to ignore issues, but it's unfair to complain about issues America ignores while ignoring issues that America tends too that other countries ignore.

The point I'm also making is that no country is 'the best', it's all based around culture and what type of person you are. Who cares if some people say America is the best? It's the best to them, and I hate to say it, but any country you go too will have those types.

What about sports teams? When really bad sports teams win games they point their fingers up and give the 'we're number 1!' sign. Does that mean they actually are?
 
[quote name='AdultLink']Nope, I never said to ignore issues, but it's unfair to complain about issues America ignores while ignoring issues that America tends too that other countries ignore.

The point I'm also making is that no country is 'the best', it's all based around culture and what type of person you are. Who cares if some people say America is the best? It's the best to them, and I hate to say it, but any country you go too will have those types.

What about sports teams? When really bad sports teams win games they point their fingers up and give the 'we're number 1!' sign. Does that mean they actually are?[/QUOTE]

I think this really is what it boils down to.

I knew this girl from Chile. She used to speak really highly of it. Like it was the best. And while it's supposedly one of the best countries in S. America, it's not somewhere I'd compare to here. Except, one thing that is startling is that it's ranked 33 by the WHO. Coming right in after the U.S. at 32. But the WHO themselves have admitted those rankings aren't flawless.
 
[quote name='AdultLink']
What about sports teams? When really bad sports teams win games they point their fingers up and give the 'we're number 1!' sign. Does that mean they actually are?[/QUOTE]

I have a feeling that somebody might be a Redskins fan.....
 
[quote name='depascal22']
I'd strongly consider a move to Scandanavia if push came to shove.[/QUOTE]
I've spent time in Scandinavia. All I can say is I hope you like the cold, short summers, and can make six figures.

[quote name='HowStern']Well, like I've stated previously we are slow to adopt technology that would serve us more efficiently like Bullet trains, solar power, better internet, etc. We pay more for slower internet than almost every other developed nation. Less than 1% of our energy is solar.[/quote]
Name one country that is as big as we are geographically AND as much population that has all those things you list better than ours.

Our healthcare is a mess. We pay more for healthcare than every other developed nation yet we are ranked lower than most other developed nations in terms of quality. Our obesity levels are outrageous.

Our education system. We are raising idiots. We consistently have lower test scores, despite spending more hours in school, than most of Asia. (Yes, they spend more days of the year in school but when you break it down by hour we are in school more time out of the year.)

We need to follow these other countries examples. What are they doing that we aren't?
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Well the biggest thing they are doing is managing much smaller land mass and populations.

But it really sounds like you are trying to convince yourself to move. I'm way past that. I don't need any more convincing.

Bmulligan, where in South America do you recommend moving to?
 
^Yeah, I'm pretty sure I'm heading out and this topic is a spawn of that half-decision. But where? ;)
 
Ok I'm going to say my piece. First, Japan has better toilets. I can sink an American toilet with my crap, if I'm dropping a big load. American Standard, WHAT a shitty company. Seriously what moron places such a small evacuation near the back and doesn't have strong water pressure? By contrast, the Japanese toilet I took a shit in TOOK it and didn't risk overflowing.
Now on the other side of Japan, I stayed in the Nakano district in Tokyo, Japan during winter time and that was a modern insulation. The Japanese can't insulate worth a shit. We do it better. You'll freeze your ass off in one of those places
edit: If I fled somewhere it would be either Japan, Italy or Korea. For Italy I'd flee to Ecici. For Korea, I'd have an apartment in Seoul to do business. In Japan I'd want a house in a rural area and have it be old fashioned.
 
Japanese homes reflect the needs of the Japanese. They can't all have McMansions because they live on freaking islands, there's only so much land. Plus the Japanese don't seem to horde shit like we do, requiring bigger homes.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Bmulligan, where in South America do you recommend moving to?[/QUOTE]

Like I said there are nice places to visit


But quality of life in most areas of the world, (3d AND 1st world nations) can be intolerable to most of us who enjoy our standard of living here in the US. Poor people here live like royalty compared to most of the world and i'm just not understanding how a bullet train in every metropolitan area would make us a better country when we're pretty well of right now.

Being very familiar with the educational system here in America, I can give you the two most culpable causes of the de-education of the US child population:

First is a lack of proper parenting. It seems to be a cultural tendency of our society to be "hand-off" parents. There is a pervasive belief that as a society, we are all responsible for our childrens' upbringing echoing the "it takes a village" mindset. The belief that we are all our brothers' keepers serves to absolve us as parents of any responsibility for our childrens' actions. I witness it constantly with certain groups of people who refuse to discipline their children and prepare them for the real world.

Second is removing the fear of failure. Not allowing kids to fail removes the single most important life lesson and building block of an individual's character - learning how to rebound. Reinforcing this safety net philosophy is the educational system which is acts as a surrogate parent for 8 hours a day. Their main purpose is to protect and nurture a child's self esteem by eliminating the stigma of discipline and failure. This is primarily propagated in the elementary school years and heavily reinforced during the jr. high, or middle school, years. By the time these kids survive to high school, they are either high achievers who have been reared by good parents and have been unaffected, or they have been conditioned into having the entitlement mentality. These are the students who don't understand the importance of education, the concept of consequences for behavior, and that the feel-good safety net is an illusion and disappears after leaving high school. They become children for life and expect reward for effort instead of reward for performance.

So, if you want to improve the human condition, start with parental involvement and discipline. Parents simply haven't been taught how to be parents and our entire society is failing because of it, not because we don't have solar panels on our houses, faster internet, or bullet trains. All the technology in the world doesn't make your life better, it makes it more complicated, and makes it easier to be lazy.
 
Please. While I do agree that we have some bad parents and that does have some negative side-effects, it is only part of the problem.

Bad parenting is what makes us wasteful of natural resources? Bad parenting is preventing us from improving simple creature comforts other countries already have? How will solar energy and more affordable travel systems make us lazy? We're much fatter than other countries that have these things already. Why aren't they so lazy and fat?

The issues do not go hand-in-hand. As valid as they both are, they are seperate. Though you do semi-prove my point that we have a lazy arrogant culture because, well, you attacked it yourself.
It seems to be a cultural tendency of our society to be "hand-off" parents.
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It seems to be a cultural tendency that we have negative cultural tendencies. Why is that? What about out country spawned an entire generation of bad parents? Why, in your mind, don't other countries suffer this epidemic?
 
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I am not really interested in keeping a "standard" of living. I'm mostly disgusted with my own reliance on many of those "standards". As long as I have hot water, a roof, and cheap food, I am good. I'm making a short list of countries to the south of us that are easy for Americans to move to for 'extended' visits.
 
I see alot of bagging on other countries but I wonder how many people have actually lived in one of them. Yeah, you may not get your big SUV, centralized AC, McMansion or the latest 3D-enabled HDTV. However once adjusted I think you'd fine the standard of living is reasonable, integrated cities are a delight, and expectations in the workplace are more then reasonable. Occasionally you have to deal with some real ahole socialists and America-haters but most people are pretty cool.
 
[quote name='docvinh']Just an interesting fact Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world.[/QUOTE]

On the other side of the coin they have the longest life expectancy.

Suicide is actually deeply rooted in Japan. The practice of seppuku and harakiri, etc.
 
[quote name='HowStern']On the other side of the coin they have the longest life expectancy.

Suicide is actually deeply rooted in Japan. The practice of seppuku and harakiri, etc.[/QUOTE]

Oh, I know all of this, just saying that it's something that should be mentioned.:) I think I would like Japan, except for the extraordinarily small living spaces. I mean, I can live with small, but even I have my limitations.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
Name one country that is as big as we are geographically AND as much population that has all those things you list better than ours.[/QUOTE]
Considering the only country that meets the first two requirements is china that's not much of an argument.



[quote name='AdultLink']
We make the majority of the worlds solar power, yet use very little. This again goes back to idiot executives who refuse to do anything with what we make. Eventually though, it'll be used, either when the executives die or a large energy crisis comes.[/QUOTE] We also use a majority of the worls energy and when it comes to percentages we are not first in the renewable energy department.

[quote name='AdultLink']
Our healthcare is good if you can pay for it, the problem of course are uninsured people.[/QUOTE]
Other counties have equal or better health care for cheaper.
[quote name='AdultLink']
The education system is a mess due to education associations feeding propoganda to kids, rather is right or left propoganda, and parents allowing kids to do what they want. Kids grow up today expecting everything to arrive on a silver platter and don't try to learn anything.
[/QUOTE]
Is this supposed to be an argument about why the US is good? Explaining why something sucks dosen't make it suck less

[quote name='AdultLink']
We make the majority of the worlds solar power, yet use very little. This again goes back to idiot executives who refuse to do anything with what we make. Eventually though, it'll be used, either when the executives die or a large energy crisis comes.[/QUOTE] We also use a majority of the worlds energy and when it comes to percentages we are not first in the renewable energy department.

[quote name='docvinh']Just an interesting fact Japan has one of the highest suicide rates in the world.[/QUOTE]
That mostly linked to the large elderly population and economic downturns.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Considering the only country that meets the first two requirements is china that's not much of an argument.



We also use a majority of the worls energy and when it comes to percentages we are not first in the renewable energy department.


Other counties have equal or better health care for cheaper.

Is this supposed to be an argument about why the US is good? Explaining why something sucks dosen't make it suck less

We also use a majority of the worlds energy and when it comes to percentages we are not first in the renewable energy department.


That mostly linked to the large elderly population and economic downturns.[/QUOTE]

First, why did you quote and respond twice to the same quote?

Secondly, the US isn't good at all when it comes to our education programs. That was an explanation why.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Please. While I do agree that we have some bad parents and that does have some negative side-effects, it is only part of the problem.

Bad parenting is what makes us wasteful of natural resources? Bad parenting is preventing us from improving simple creature comforts other countries already have? How will solar energy and more affordable travel systems make us lazy? We're much fatter than other countries that have these things already. Why aren't they so lazy and fat?[/quote]

Because we have time. We don't have to work for an entire year to buy that big screen TV. And there's a reason for it. There are lots of us who buy them when they first come out and they become more affordable in the next 5 years because we took the chance and invested in the technology. That experimental medical treatment your insurance company wouldn't pay for? We paid for it so that eventually it would become NON-experimental and cheaply available to the rest of you. You people don't realize how good everyone has it in this country. Yes, some things are expensive and out of reach for some, but they are AVAILABLE. When they become scarce is when things break down. Look at the sheer number of items in our grocery stores. 3000 eggs, 600 gallons of milk, 1000 loaves of bread, 5 different brands of sandwich bags at any given moment at the local market. These are the types of things you take for granted and neglect to include in your analysis of how bad we are here and how bad things are for so many. The simple availability of our retarded "creature comforts", (which you either want or hate - I can't tell becuase you are arguing for them and then against them as being wasteful) is the type of intangible wealth that we posess as a country that isn't available in any other part of the world.

You think we are less good because we don't have "creature comforts" ? Like a bread machine in every house? Cuba has a rice machine in every house - except they don't have the rice. We have all the creature comforts and more here. And stepping out of my house to a rapid transit system instead of waiting an hour for the bus only gives me an extra hour to play video games and get fat. Honestly, I wish you'd just get to the point already.

You keep pussyfooting around because you don't want to just come out and say what you want to be true. You want a central planning bureaucracy to tell us what kind of cars to buy, when to plug them in, when to drive to our issued job department and when to take lunch break. All to make things more efficient, I'm guessing, because we're so wasteful.

All the ills of our way of life (wastefulness, laziness, conceit) could all be solved with the stroke of a pen and brandished weapon. Some one to tell us to fabricate solar panels, eliminate oil dependency, wasteful meat production and redundant and useless systems of currency and trade. If only we could all get together and force everyone to make the right choices we would REALLY earn our "better than the rest of the world" badge.

You should just man up and speak your philosophy instead of playing these touchy-feely-guessing games. Don't worry, you can always run and hide from your own innermost thoughts and beliefs like the rest of the Socialists here do. You can still pretend you stand for freedom after you admit that taking it away is the only way to make us a better place to live. Go ahead. You know you want to.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Please. While I do agree that we have some bad parents and that does have some negative side-effects, it is only part of the problem.

Bad parenting is what makes us wasteful of natural resources? Bad parenting is preventing us from improving simple creature comforts other countries already have? How will solar energy and more affordable travel systems make us lazy? We're much fatter than other countries that have these things already. Why aren't they so lazy and fat?[/quote]

Because we have time. We don't have to work for an entire year to buy that big screen TV. And there's a reason for it. There are lots of us who buy them when they first come out and they become more affordable in the next 5 years because we took the chance and invested in the technology. That experimental medical treatment your insurance company wouldn't pay for? We paid for it so that eventually it would become NON-experimental and cheaply available to the rest of you. You people don't realize how good everyone has it in this country. Yes, some things are expensive and out of reach for some, but they are AVAILABLE. When they become scarce is when things break down. Look at the sheer number of items in our grocery stores. 3000 eggs, 600 gallons of milk, 1000 loaves of bread, 5 different brands of sandwich bags at any given moment at the local market. These are the types of things you take for granted and neglect to include in your analysis of how bad we are here and how bad things are for so many. The simple availability of our retarded "creature comforts", (which you either want or hate - I can't tell becuase you are arguing for them and then against them as being wasteful) is the type of intangible wealth that we posess as a country that isn't available in any other part of the world.

You think we are less good because we don't have "creature comforts" ? Like a bread machine in every house? Cuba has a rice machine in every house - except they don't have the rice. We have all the creature comforts and more here. And stepping out of my house to a rapid transit system instead of waiting an hour for the bus only gives me an extra hour to play video games and get fat. Honestly, I wish you'd just get to the point already.

You keep pussyfooting around because you don't want to just come out and say what you want to be true. You want a central planning bureaucracy to tell us what kind of cars to buy, when to plug them in, when to drive to our issued job department and when to take lunch break. All to make things more efficient, I'm guessing, because we're so wasteful.

All the ills of our way of life (wastefulness, laziness, conceit) could all be solved with the stroke of a pen and brandished weapon. Some one to tell us to fabricate solar panels, eliminate oil dependency, wasteful meat production and redundant and useless systems of currency and trade. If only we could all get together and force everyone to make the right choices we would REALLY earn our "better than the rest of the world" badge.

You should just man up and speak your philosophy instead of playing these touchy-feely-guessing games. Don't worry, you can always run and hide from your own innermost thoughts and beliefs like the rest of the Socialists here do. You can still pretend you stand for freedom after you admit that taking it away is the only way to make us a better place to live. Go ahead. You know you want to.
 
Actually I had a fairly detailed list of what is wrong with the U.S. that other countries seem to have little problem with. You said the reason was bad parenting.LOL. So, other countries don't have bad parents? And you say I'm the one pussy footing around? Quit back-tracking and come back with a real argument.
 
[quote name='itachiitachi']Considering the only country that meets the first two requirements is china that's not much of an argument.
[/QUOTE]

Therein lies much wisdom for this discussion.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Actually I had a fairly detailed list of what is wrong with the U.S. that other countries seem to have little problem with. You said the reason was bad parenting.LOL. So, other countries don't have bad parents? And you say I'm the one pussy footing around? Quit back-tracking and come back with a real argument.[/QUOTE]

Yes, let's just take a look at that disparate musing.....I mean detailed list:

Now that most every other advanced country has adopted the policies of freedom that made us great, how can we still claim to be the greatest country in the world?
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FALSE premise. Not a good way to start unless you can explain any of that. What policies of freedom? Which ones are the most important, and why? I have every reason to believe you have no idea what you're talking about.

Japan. They have cheap healthcare, the longest lifespan, good education, awesome technology(bullet trains,etc), and the girls aren't so bad
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Okay, here we have the only substantive post. Japan is good because they have cheap healthcare, good education, bullet trains, and you dig asian chicks.

It's definitely mostly the Govs way they choose to spend the taxes that is getting us ed. I worded my previous post poorly. And exactly like you said "we used to be". It really is the tortoise and the hare. We started out ahead and now we are far behind but people still believe we're the best and are stubborn against adopting policies of other countries who have seemingly taken the lead.
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We were ahead in what ? Behind in what ? Lost the lead in what? Policies like what ?

I think that America is the Al Bundy of countries. We got 4 touchdowns in a single game in high school and now look at us. We still claim to be the best because of those 4 touchdowns in a single game. Meanwhile, we're falling apart.
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Okay we can't score points. I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but it must mean something in your own head. To the thinking population, it means nothing.

if you think I was saying Sarah Palin would be bad for the country because she's a republican , you're wrong. She would be bad because, well...I doubt anyone needs that explained.
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I don't like Sarah Palin either, but, unlike you, I have no doubt I could articulate my reasons.

I sort of meant that the way 2 parties operate in the U.S. is a joke. I should have wrote OUR 2 party system is a joke. The way they go about things.
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Yeah, yeah, man. We all know it's a joke dude. We're in that collective consciousness together, man. We're all in on that joke. LOL. So there's no need to explain ourselves.


There are other industrialized nations who have caught up to or passed us in terms of quality of life. Americans still shit on them though with this arrogant unfounded pride. It holds us back as a nation because it keeps us from practicing some of their policies that would improve our own country.

Point of this thread went right over some heads. There's no debate we are better than third world countries. That's not what I said in my OP.
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Too bad you didn't really say anything in your OP. Yup, you're just over my head with your powerful insight and magnanimous profundity. Still wondering what policies we need, though. And what qualities make our lives here sub-par comparatively. Personally, I don't think you know jack about quality of life here compared to other countries.

we are slow to adopt technology that would serve us more efficiently like Bullet trains, solar power, better internet, etc. We pay more for slower internet than almost every other developed nation. Less than 1% of our energy is solar.

Our healthcare is a mess. We pay more for healthcare than every other developed nation yet we are ranked lower than most other developed nations in terms of quality. Our obesity levels are outrageous.

Our education system. We are raising idiots. We consistently have lower test scores, despite spending more hours in school, than most of Asia. (Yes, they spend more days of the year in school but when you break it down by hour we are in school more time out of the year.)

We need to follow these other countries examples. What are they doing that we aren't?
Click to expand...

Finally, THE LIST. You give too much credence to rankings and probably haven't a clue as to their criteria.

But the WHO themselves have admitted those rankings aren't flawless.
Click to expand...

Oh wait, you already KNOW that. Yet you still believe in those rankings probably having no interest in the shortcomings of the criteria. And you laugh at my suggestion of bad parenting.

You are the result of all our shortcomings. The aimless, uncritically thinking youth who is unprepared for adulthood because of improper preparation. If only there were a solution we could implement. If only someone could tell me what it is. I know we aren't the best and I hate the people that say we are. I know solar power is the best, but yet everyone else should start adopting it so we can be the best. We should have bulolet trains and creature comforts like those other places that are better than us. Meaningless drivel that may fly for your high school social studies paper, but insignificant to a real discussion.

It all boils down to the educational system and the proper parenting that reinforces a proper education. Parents are the root of any educational system.

You were not taught to be just, only to blame. You were not taught to analyze, only label. you were not taught to risk, only to be rewarded. You were not taught to act, only react. You were not taught to win, only try. You were not taught that trying sometimes isn't good enough. All of the coddling to make you feel good about yourself has resulted in a deep seeded self-immolation and knowledge that you really aren't good enough, or even good, for that matter. That has more to do with our position in the "best country in the world" ranking than the one or two less years we live than in those better countries.

I would also ask you to please stop dragging us further down my list.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Yes, let's just take a look at that disparate musing.....I mean detailed list:


FALSE premise. Not a good way to start unless you can explain any of that. What policies of freedom? Which ones are the most important, and why? I have every reason to believe you have no idea what you're talking about.



Okay, here we have the only substantive post. Japan is good because they have cheap healthcare, good education, bullet trains, and you dig asian chicks.



We were ahead in what ? Behind in what ? Lost the lead in what? Policies like what ?



Okay we can't score points. I'm not sure what this is supposed to mean, but it must mean something in your own head. To the thinking population, it means nothing.



I don't like Sarah Palin either, but, unlike you, I have no doubt I could articulate my reasons.



Yeah, yeah, man. We all know it's a joke dude. We're in that collective consciousness together, man. We're all in on that joke. LOL. So there's no need to explain ourselves.




Too bad you didn't really say anything in your OP. Yup, you're just over my head with your powerful insight and magnanimous profundity. Still wondering what policies we need, though. And what qualities make our lives here sub-par comparatively. Personally, I don't think you know jack about quality of life here compared to other countries.



Finally, THE LIST. You give too much credence to rankings and probably haven't a clue as to their criteria.



Oh wait, you already KNOW that. Yet you still believe in those rankings probably having no interest in the shortcomings of the criteria. And you laugh at my suggestion of bad parenting.

You are the result of all our shortcomings. The aimless, uncritically thinking youth who is unprepared for adulthood because of improper preparation. If only there were a solution we could implement. If only someone could tell me what it is. I know we aren't the best and I hate the people that say we are. I know solar power is the best, but yet everyone else should start adopting it so we can be the best. We should have bulolet trains and creature comforts like those other places that are better than us. Meaningless drivel that may fly for your high school social studies paper, but insignificant to a real discussion.

It all boils down to the educational system and the proper parenting that reinforces a proper education. Parents are the root of any educational system.

You were not taught to be just, only to blame. You were not taught to analyze, only label. you were not taught to risk, only to be rewarded. You were not taught to act, only react. You were not taught to win, only try. You were not taught that trying sometimes isn't good enough. All of the coddling to make you feel good about yourself has resulted in a deep seeded self-immolation and knowledge that you really aren't good enough, or even good, for that matter. That has more to do with our position in the "best country in the world" ranking than the one or two less years we live than in those better countries.

I would also ask you to please stop dragging us further down my list.[/QUOTE]


All you've done is take my replies and discussions with other people out of context. I'm not sure what you were trying to do but, like you said yourself, sometimes trying isn't good enough.

We pay more for health insurance despite having less of our population covered because of bad parenting?

We don't use renewable energy because of bad parenting?

We refuse to build affordable travel solutions because of bad parenting?

In the end all you could come up with is parenting being the reason for our downfalls. Parenting is the reason we get some things right and others wrong? So, again I have to ask, do other countries not have bad parents? Does Asia not have bad parents because their children test higher in school? What is it about our culture that spawned a whole generation of bad parents? Could you analyze it(not blame, mind you) and figure out why?
You can decorate your answer with as much bullshit word salads as you want. It's still a dumb answer.
 
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[quote name='HowStern']All you've done is take my replies and discussions with other people out of context. I'm not sure what you were trying to do but, like you said yourself, sometimes trying isn't good enough.

We pay more for health insurance despite having less of our population covered because of bad parenting?

We don't use renewable energy because of bad parenting?

We refuse to build affordable travel solutions because of bad parenting?

In the end all you could come up with is parenting being the reason for our downfalls. Parenting is the reason we get some things right and others wrong? So, again I have to ask, do other countries not have bad parents? Does Asia not have bad parents because their children test higher in school? What is it about our culture that spawned a whole generation of bad parents? Could you analyze it(not blame, mind you) and figure out why?
You can decorate your answer with as much bullshit word salads as you want. It's still a dumb answer.[/QUOTE]


THAT should have been your first post.


And I didn't just take your replies or de-contextualize them. They are a listing of every post you made in this thread which, even together, barely constituted a coherent thought. Finally, after much cajoling, we have a topic.

In answer to your questions:

Yes we pay more for health care for a number of reasons. Not one of which is that it's because we're not the "best". There are many factors as to why it is expensive. The first is that health care providers charge the paying customers MORE to cover the costs of the people who DON'T pay. There are many political and socio-economic reasons as to why they can't or don't, none of which is a result of not being the "best" country. A heavily litigious society results in astronomical malpractice insurance for doctors and hospitals is another cause for high cost - not to mention the entitlement mentality that pervades all areas of society.

We do use renewable energy, but it is not profitable. Because we aren't the leader does not make us "unbest". Maybe in your opinion it does, but that isn't worth much in the real world. Instead of complaining about it, perhaps you should focus your attention to studying why it's not, or how to change that. I'm sure a geological science degree is right up your alley and then you can share your discoveries with the world, for free, to make it a better place. Until then, stop complaining about it and wishing it were so.

There are affordable travel solutions. They are called automobiles. "Affordable" in the context you presented alludes to your economic philosophy more than you probably intended. I'm sure you want everything to be "affordable" without even questioning what that means. Affordable to whom? Everyone, or just you? As I suggested before about economies of scale, some things don't become affordable or are not always affordable when considering the size and scope of the endeavor. Japan is a country of about 149k square miles. It's an island nation with many heavily populated areas that aren't too far apart. Looking at the United States, it's very different in many respects. The government runs Amtrak, look at what a good job they do of making train travel affordable and convenient. Think about that before you want for more government solutions to problems.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']THAT should have been your first post.


And I didn't just take your replies or de-contextualize them. They are a listing of every post you made in this thread which, even together, barely constituted a coherent thought. Finally, after much cajoling, we have a topic.

In answer to your questions:

Yes we pay more for health care for a number of reasons. Not one of which is that it's because we're not the "best". There are many factors as to why it is expensive. The first is that health care providers charge the paying customers MORE to cover the costs of the people who DON'T pay. There are many political and socio-economic reasons as to why they can't or don't, none of which is a result of not being the "best" country. A heavily litigious society results in astronomical malpractice insurance for doctors and hospitals is another cause for high cost - not to mention the entitlement mentality that pervades all areas of society.

We do use renewable energy, but it is not profitable. Because we aren't the leader does not make us "unbest". Maybe in your opinion it does, but that isn't worth much in the real world. Instead of complaining about it, perhaps you should focus your attention to studying why it's not, or how to change that. I'm sure a geological science degree is right up your alley and then you can share your discoveries with the world, for free, to make it a better place. Until then, stop complaining about it and wishing it were so.

There are affordable travel solutions. They are called automobiles. "Affordable" in the context you presented alludes to your economic philosophy more than you probably intended. I'm sure you want everything to be "affordable" without even questioning what that means. Affordable to whom? Everyone, or just you? As I suggested before about economies of scale, some things don't become affordable or are not always affordable when considering the size and scope of the endeavor. Japan is a country of about 149k square miles. It's an island nation with many heavily populated areas that aren't too far apart. Looking at the United States, it's very different in many respects. The government runs Amtrak, look at what a good job they do of making train travel affordable and convenient. Think about that before you want for more government solutions to problems.[/QUOTE]


I purposefully didn't go into great detail on every aspect of our government's downfalls because we already have a healthcare topic. I didn't want this to turn into that.

The other problem with the way you percieve this topic is that just because I say we may not be the best, I never said we are the worst or even near it. I simply said that other industralized nations have been offering the freedoms we do and sometimes more(better run healthcare, better education, etc).


I'm not looking to debate healthcare with you in here. Go to the healthcare topic.

We do use renewable energy and in fact we have the largest wind farm in the world. But..Guess who built it?
A German company.

Travel. I'm not sure why Amtrak still gets federal support. Or ever did. But it's the wrong wound to let our money bleed out of. We should have switched to high-speed railways A.S.A.P. when we could afford it(If we ever could have, we certainly can't now). But the car is king here. How's that going to help our gas prices as our resources dwindle down? What will we heat our homes with after that? The German built wind farm?
 
Scale is something I just don't think these complainers consider when they want to do the comparison to other countries game. I've brought it up several times and they just don't seem to get it.

I challenged someone to name one country with our geographical size and population that has better "everything" that keeps getting listed in this thread. Which country? Oh, none? There is a reason for that - because it's virtually impossible.

You seriously want bullet trains criss-crossing a country this size? Trillions of dollars. You seriously want everything to be "affordable" for all 360 million Americans? You really think we should have a number of things that basically equate to spreading wealth. Well guess what? In order to do all those things in a country this size and populous you are going to have to make Scandinavian taxes look like coffee change. Either that or conquer and loot about 1/3 of the planet.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']You seriously want bullet trains criss-crossing a country this size? Trillions of dollars.[/QUOTE]

"Trillions of dollars" isn't that scary of a number, not in the context of a project lasting decades considering the size of our economy.

We are spending Trillions in Iraq, at least in this case we would have something to show for it.

Al Gore once asked something along the lines of "When did we become a can't do society"?

If I had to guess it is because this country has a loud minority of reactionary dead weight, their golden age was the gilded age and they won't rest until they erase all traces of progress.
 
[quote name='HowStern']

Travel. I'm not sure why Amtrak still gets federal support. Or ever did. But it's the wrong wound to let our money bleed out of. We should have switched to high-speed railways A.S.A.P. when we could afford it(If we ever could have, we certainly can't now). But the car is king here. How's that going to help our gas prices as our resources dwindle down? What will we heat our homes with after that? The German built wind farm?[/QUOTE]

I have to say that I don't think high speed rail could really work here, at least not around the entire country. Near some big cities sure, but besides that I dunno.
 
[quote name='Msut77']"Trillions of dollars" isn't that scary of a number, not in the context of a project lasting decades considering the size of our economy.

We are spending Trillions in Iraq, at least in this case we would have something to show for it.

Al Gore once asked something along the lines of "When did we become a can't do society"?

If I had to guess it is because this country has a loud minority of reactionary dead weight, their golden age was the gilded age and they won't rest until they erase all traces of progress.[/QUOTE]


Exactly. Thank you.

edit:mad:thrust For another example take a look at the 50 examples of government waste topic. It's not a "we don't have the money" thing. It's a priorities thing.
 
[quote name='docvinh']I have to say that I don't think high speed rail could really work here, at least not around the entire country. Near some big cities sure, but besides that I dunno.[/QUOTE]

Depends. How do you get from point A to point B on a long trip?

Airplane? Bullet train would be cheaper and almost as fast.

Car? Bullet train would only be faster.

For me, I would be more inclined to take a two hour train ride where I could walk over to my kids and, um, calm them down than a two hour car ride hoping the three year old doesn't throw a fit about something.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Depends. How do you get from point A to point B on a long trip?

Airplane? Bullet train would be cheaper and almost as fast.

Car? Bullet train would only be faster.

For me, I would be more inclined to take a two hour train ride where I could walk over to my kids and, um, calm them down than a two hour car ride hoping the three year old doesn't throw a fit about something.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I don't disagree, I actually like the train myself. It might be cheaper, it might not be, normally when I look up flights from CHI to BWI, it ends up being cheaper for me just to fly or close to the same amount as it would be to take a train.
 
As for the U.S. actually being better than any other developed country, that's opinion. But, almost everyone has regional pride, no matter where they come from.
 
[quote name='docvinh']I have to say that I don't think high speed rail could really work here, at least not around the entire country. Near some big cities sure, but besides that I dunno.[/QUOTE]

That is pretty much how it works in other countries, connecting mostly big population centers to one another.

Say NY to Chicago and start from there.

The closest we have is Acela Express NYC to DC, which hits speeds Japan and France were getting in the '60's.
 
[quote name='Msut77']That is pretty much how it works in other countries, connecting mostly big population centers to one another.[/QUOTE]
Other countries like France, and Japan. Where population centers are much closer together than in the US. Unless we are going to just have regional rail systems, there's a lot of distance to cover.

Say NY to Chicago and start from there.
Click to expand...
California is building a 800 mile bullet train system from San Diego to San Francisco.
http://www.nytimes.com/2009/10/03/us/03train.html
The state’s application for the grant calls for some $5 billion in state, local and private matching money to help pay for the $45 billion project.
Click to expand...
Chicago, and New York are around that distance apart. So, it would be fair to assume that the cost of a bullet train going from Chicago to New York would be around that $45 billion dollar price. That's a lot of money. Shit, you want to dole out that kind of money for trains, to the big cities, why not give the Twin Cities some? Hell, you just give us $10 billion and we'll be able to create a great rail system around here. It only cost us $715 million to build the Hiawatha Light Rail, a 12 mile line that carries around 10 million passengers a year. For $10 billion we could have 13 of those.
The closest we have is Acela Express NYC to DC, which hits speeds Japan and France were getting in the '60's.
Click to expand...
Does speed really matter that much? There are such things as planes, you know. I understand some of you have a fetish for bullet trains, but that doesn't mean we should spend trillions to put them all over the country. There's better things we could do with that kind of money, (or just not spend it).
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']
Does speed really matter that much? There are such things as planes, you know. I understand some of you have a fetish for bullet trains, but that doesn't mean we should spend trillions to put them all over the country. There's better things we could do with that kind of money, (or just not spend it).[/QUOTE]

Uhh, what?? You do understand bullet trains run on a small amount of electricity compared to an airplanes fuel consumption?

Using bullet trains we could get to places just as fast (there's the reason for the speed) as an airplane at a much lower cost, while cutting down our dependency on non-renewable energy. Saving everyone (except the oil companies) money in the long run.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Uhh, what?? You do understand bullet trains run on a small amount of electricity compared to an airplanes fuel consumption?

Using bullet trains we could get to places just as fast (there's the reason for the speed) as an airplane at a much lower cost, while cutting down our dependency on non-renewable energy. Saving everyone (except the oil companies) money in the long run.[/QUOTE]
And did you also know that a regular electric train also uses a small amount of energy compared to an airplane at a much lower cost than a bullet train?
When you advocate for a bullet train you need to know two things. Ridership (or usage) and cost. In order to create the infrastructure for a bullet train, you are looking at around 50 billion to connect two major cities. An entire national network would cost trillions. You are spending trillions of dollars to move things 2-3 times as fast via train. Is it really worth it? For that price we could provide health care to everyone, just based on the costs of the health care bills. Or, for a fraction of the cost we could build great light rail systems to major cities, along with a possible revival of the street car.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']And did you also know that a regular electric train also uses a small amount of energy compared to an airplane at a much lower cost than a bullet train?
When you advocate for a bullet train you need to know two things. Ridership (or usage) and cost. In order to create the infrastructure for a bullet train, you are looking at around 50 billion to connect two major cities. An entire national network would cost trillions. You are spending trillions of dollars to move things 2-3 times as fast via train. Is it really worth it? For that price we could provide health care to everyone, just based on the costs of the health care bills. Or, for a fraction of the cost we could build great light rail systems to major cities, along with a possible revival of the street car.[/QUOTE]

The point is getting ridership up. The travel time of high-speed railways comes close to flying travel times. You could get from NY to LA in 10 hours. Add in a much cheaper cost and you start seeing some real revenue.

Regular locomotives don't offer the convenience of fast travel and are therefore overlooked frequently by people looking at travel options.

Not to mention Amtrak doesn't exclusively use "regular electric trains". They are usually run with diesel. Amtrak used 66.6 million gallons of diesel fuel in 2005. This 3.2 gallons less than 2004. But still in '05 the cost of their fuel use increased by $43 million.

There's no good argument for the fact we never switched to high speed railways (aside from acela which as Msut pointed out is comparably slow to other countries). It would benefit everyone.
 
[quote name='HowStern']Uhh, what?? You do understand bullet trains run on a small amount of electricity compared to an airplanes fuel consumption?

Using bullet trains we could get to places just as fast (there's the reason for the speed) as an airplane at a much lower cost, while cutting down our dependency on non-renewable energy. Saving everyone (except the oil companies) money in the long run.[/QUOTE]

You also don't have to spend as long getting checked on or taxiing on a runway.

Over the long haul the time saved adds up, some high speed rail systems haul freight as well.

And to think about all the jobs that would be created.
 
[quote name='HowStern']The point is getting ridership up. The travel time of high-speed railways comes close to flying travel times. You could get from NY to LA in 10 hours. Add in a much cheaper cost and you start seeing some real revenue.[/QUOTE]
How can you have a much cheaper cost when you have to recoup that tens to hundreds of billions of dollars that it cost to build the infrastructure for that bullet train? How many people are actually going to ride it, and how much will you have to charge? A 757 airplane costs around 50 million dollars. Companies can charge a couple hundred for a round trip from New York to LA and recoup the cost of the airplane in years. A bullet train from New York to LA would likely cost in the hundreds of billions. How are you going to recoup that without charging incredibly high ticket prices? Especially when there are only a certain amount of people that go from New York to LA each year. About 1.9 million people travel each year from JFK to LAX. Considering that figure is for a one way ticket, let's do the math. 100 billion divided by 1.9 million is 52,632. If you want to recoup the initial money in 50 years, you divide 52,632 by 50 and get 1,053. You would have to get everyone who flies from JFK to LAX to use your bullet train, and pay the fare of $1,053 in order to recoup that hundred million. Sure you could haul freight, but that means buying more trains, and you would still have to convince a lot of people to move their goods on your line in order to lower prices. The economics simply don't add up.
Regular locomotives don't offer the convenience of fast travel and are therefore overlooked frequently by people looking at travel options.
Click to expand...
They work great for short distance travel, aka 100 miles or less. Longer distances are slower than plane obviously, but that doesn't mean a train isn't useful.
Not to mention Amtrak doesn't exclusively use "regular electric trains". They are usually run with diesel. Amtrak used 66.6 million gallons of diesel fuel in 2005. This 3.2 gallons less than 2004. But still in '05 the cost of their fuel use increased by $43 million.
Click to expand...
Amtrak is shit. I prefer regional rail service, like the service here that is run by the Metropolitan Council.
There's no good argument for the fact we never switched to high speed railways (aside from acela which as Msut pointed out is comparably slow to other countries).
Click to expand...
Uh, the economics of it? Other countries can do it cheaply because they have the infrastructure and they are much smaller countries. It becomes very expensive for us to build bullet train corridors when we have to travel thousands of miles. Especially when that is not the optimal distance for one of these trains to travel.
 
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[quote name='thrustbucket']Scale is something I just don't think these complainers consider when they want to do the comparison to other countries game. I've brought it up several times and they just don't seem to get it.

I challenged someone to name one country with our geographical size and population that has better "everything" that keeps getting listed in this thread. Which country? Oh, none? There is a reason for that - because it's virtually impossible. [/QUOTE]

You know other places have great public transportation within cities, that has nothing to with the nation size , neither does the crappy internet(with in cities), crappy health care or crappy schools.

Also you Ignore the fact that the US also has much more money than these smaller nations.
 
[quote name='fullmetalfan720']How can you have a much cheaper cost when you have to recoup that tens to hundreds of billions of dollars that it cost to build the infrastructure for that bullet train? How many people are actually going to ride it, and how much will you have to charge? A 757 airplane costs around 50 million dollars. Companies can charge a couple hundred for a round trip from New York to LA and recoup the cost of the airplane in years. A bullet train from New York to LA would likely cost in the hundreds of billions. How are you going to recoup that without charging incredibly high ticket prices? Especially when there are only a certain amount of people that go from New York to LA each year. About 1.9 million people travel each year from JFK to LAX. Considering that figure is for a one way ticket, let's do the math. 100 billion divided by 1.9 million is 52,632. If you want to recoup the initial money in 50 years, you divide 52,632 by 50 and get 1,053. You would have to get everyone who flies from JFK to LAX to use your bullet train, and pay the fare of $1,053 (one-way) in order to recoup that hundred million. Sure you could haul freight, but that means buying more trains, and you would still have to convince a lot of people to move their goods on your line in order to lower prices. The economics simply don't add up.
They work great for short distance travel, aka 100 miles or less. Longer distances are slower than plane obviously, but that doesn't mean a train isn't useful.
Amtrak is shit. I prefer regional rail service, like the service here that is run by the Metropolitan Council.
Uh, the economics of it? Other countries can do it cheaply because they have the infrastructure and they are much smaller countries. It becomes very expensive for us to build bullet train corridors when we have to travel thousands of miles. Especially when that is not the optimal distance for one of these trains to travel.[/QUOTE]

Recoup the cost of the plane? What about the fuel? That is only going to go up in price. I'm not sure but it seems the airline industry isn't doing so hot.

California is estimating their 800 mile bullet train system to cost anywhere from $10 billion and then later $32 billion for maintenance and if they add extensions. The country is roughly 3000 miles wide. NY to LA straight shot you are probably looking at a price tag of about $60 billion if you don't branch off. At Max possibly your $100 billion estimate isn't too far off.
But to be honest, being from Boston,I've seen the estimate of the big dig go from a couplemillion to much more.

The thing is you will see higher levels of ridership than regular trains and have money saved on fuel. And freight as has been mentioned. It will pay for itself a lot quicker than the Iraq war will.
 
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