Let's paint a dystopian future: What if the Wii reaches PS2 levels?

V

Virtua

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Seeing week after week in japan, and month after month in US, Wii and DS sales keep dominating, doing very well in a traditionally slow season for gaming. The software isn't quite there in the US yet for Wii, but rarely are more than 5 of the top 20 software spots in japan belonging to non-nintendo systems. Traditionally, NA has followed japan's lead in sales. We all were convinced that the "superior" PSP would stomp on the DS in NA, at least, but after a brief period of competition, the DS pulled away by far.

Some people can call it a fad, say it'll trail off, but let's say it doesn't, what does this mean? If Wii breaks the 3rd party curse of Nintendo consoles, which it certainly could, if exclusives keep coming, I don't think anything could stop it this generation.

So what then? What does this mean for 3rd party development on the HD systems? Look at PS2, last generation. Which system were 99% of 3rd party titles originally made for? If Wii becomes this benchmark, with other systems getting upgraded verisons, it could seriously retard the potential of the other two systems. Could you really see UbiSoft/EA/others ignoring a console with sales the size of the original PS2?

Alternatively, this could create a huge split, with lower tier developers working on Wii/PS2/PSP, extending PS2's lifespan to that of Wii's, and keeping Sony in good shape while the PS3 struggles to find acceptance over the next few years. An ironic development, considering PS2 ports have helped give Wii a hand up while developers recover from the shock at Wii's success.

A 360/PS3/PC segment that shares versions of 3rd party games would be the other side, with far fewer titles, but those being of blockbuster quality, at least in production values. In this scenario, 360's ease of portability from PC would be a huge advantage.

I see Wii dominating sales in a near PS2 like fashion, PS2 continuing to sell well at $99 or less to those even more price conscious, getting non-motion versions of Wii titles.

360 will likely benefit from ease of development and ease of portability from PC, doing well, but not as well as last generation, and the PS3 mainly becoming the high end video nut's console for blu-ray and the highest of visual quality in the fewer games made to take advantage of it.

It could all be BS, but this is my "expert analysis" as it were. I could be wrong, and PS3 could take the lead, and the benchmark for development, giving 360/Wii gimped versions of PS3 titles without Blu-Ray storage size.

Any other thoughts on what it'd be like with a Wii winning generation? Or even.. GASP, a one console future? j/k on the last one.. at least for anywhere outside japan..
 
The potential of this gen was already stunted because the PS2 was in the lead... hell, I am a firm believer that they barely even tapped out the power they had in the PS2 / Xbox / GC, and definitely not the Xbox.

With or without the Wii, developers will never come close to tapping out the power of the 360 / PS3 before they move onto the next shiny object.

I don't see PS2 lasting much longer, the release list past August / September is starting to get pretty sparse... I think 2007 will be its last hurrah. I want to be wrong, though.

If the Wii reaches PS2 levels, then Nintendo did something right, and it's not all about shiny graphics. I also like me some shiny graphics though. There is room for both.
 
just came in to say props on the title :lol:

I could see a "role reversal" as well-- PS3 being the system with fewer, but nicer looking games (like the xbox last gen) and the Wii dominating. The 360 will have more marketshare than the PS3, but it'll be so close that all systems will receive great support.
 
The nice thing is (I know it must seem weird to hear me say this) the Wii almost cannot reach such dominance. Yeah, Japan is all but lost to Sony (though we'll see how well that holds after FFXIII hits), but the Wii will need a year or two yet to even catch the 360 worldwide, unless something changes drastically (360 sales plummet, Wii sales skyrocket to DS-levels). With that scenario, sure the Wii will "win," but wouldn't come near 70% marketshare the PS2 has unless this generation lasted 10 years.

Though that isn't to say that the Wii2 won't continue what the Wii started, much like the PS2 built on the PS1. But there are far too many factors to predict that.

I like competition as much as the next guy, and all a Wii victory would mean to me is that I hopefully wouldn't have to buy a "cheap" PS3 5 years down the road because I missed out on a bunch of nice RPG exclusives as I did this gen - had a GC since 04, just bought a PS2 to catch up on the one genre I cared about that I had been lacking.

And for the record, Nintendo owned 42 of the top 50 software spots in Japan last week. :lol:
 
Well, FFXII international didn't exactly burn up the japanese charts. With how much they're diluting the name, it's hard to get excited anymore about FF.

I really do see things getting pretty evenly split this gen, but its still fun to think about what the future would be like if we had GameCube hardware as the standard for 3rd party development..
 
the wii will be around but its never gonna be the number 1 system. as you can see people are getting tired of the system and unless they drop some serious games ( outside of the usual staples) but aside from its"innovative" controls what really makes it a stand out system. the reality is outside of the fanboys who buy anything nintendo the system was sold based on the controller and thats it and alot of people will tell you that playing traditional games isnt enhanced by it in fact it tends to either be unresponsive or make the game more difficult than it needs to be.


as ive been saying for a while now the damn thing is a gimmick like robbie the robot, like the power glove, and the n64 microphone. the nongamers and the fanboys will keep this thing going but its not goign to rule jack shit. the 360 and the ps3 are the main systems to watch and unless the ps3 gets some serious gamage out in this year that impresses and a price drop on top of that for the system theyre not goign to do the kind of numbers they should.
 
[quote name='botticus'] but the Wii will need a year or two yet to even catch the 360 worldwide[/QUOTE]

The Wii has sold 7 Million worldwide in 5 months. The 360 is almost at 10 Million. If sales continue at this pace for the Wii in two years it will be more than double that of the 360.
 
I doubt the Wii will reach PS2 levels, mostly because PS2 much like PS1 was supported by the vast amount of games it had, not to mention the varied types they offered.

In order for Nintendo to get Wii to PS2 status they need to get 3rd party devs to make a lot of non-port/remakes for their system. They also need to snag a majority of the major exclusives(which at this point I think is a impossibility for any of the three)
 
I think the Wii system will increase in sales as soon as the stock issue is taken care of (which hopefully will coincide with release of one of the three big titles from Nintendo)
Nintendo has only exercised one of their heavy hitters software wise. I think things will only go up from here. You're going to have people buy a 360 for Halo 3, a PS3 for MGS 4 and FFXIII, but there's going to be people buying Wiis for Smash Brothers too.
 
The "real" games are already coming, though. Just in the last week we had Soul Calibur and Rygar announced.

Just wait, as these company conferences keep happening over the next few weeks, you're going to hear more and more. It's no longer reasonable to write the Wii off due to it's hardware, its' got a real chance of usurping the HD era and holding it back until next gen.

Anyone who has this mentality of "oh well the 360 and the PS3 are the real thing" needs to wake up and realize what the numbers are saying about the market. They want affordable, they want something new, and accessible.

Don't think for a moment that Sony and MS aren't kicking themselves for all the money drained into R&D and hardware after seeing Nintendo cash in on the slightly modified gamecube hardware.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']PS2 levels? No, thats reserved for the DS.

What this scenario means is that the REAL gimmick that is unimportant to gaming is HD.[/QUOTE] Oh, you'd just love that, wouldn't you? :roll:


But I do agree somewhat. :lol:
 
If Wii sells at a PS2 level, maybe more than 2 good games will come out per year for it, breaking the trend the plagued the N64 and Gamecube. I have a GC and I like it, but seriously there just aren't nearly as many good games for it as there were for PS2. The Wii is still lacking the volume of solid games that the 360 has, although it does have more than the PS3 at this point.
 
well if your thoughts on the future of this generation come true, then I hope we don't have to deal with a ton of mini game/party games....yes I see how people will enjoy them, but I would prefer a deeper game then a bunch of mini games..I enjoyed zelda, and I am looking forward to gettinng paper mario...but there isn't much else out there that interests me as a gamer at this current time. IMO, the 3rd party support of slapping ps2 ports on the wii is hurting the wii from a gamers prospective.

as for your comments about looking at the market, I don't fully agree with that...your affordable argument is bogus, due to the 360's core price only costing $50 more. I also believe that nintendo's fans are diehard and loyal and they are the ones buying the systems. IMO, the wii will hit a wall at around 15 - 18 million in sales. Yes they have picked up some non gamers, but I think the belief that they are bringing a lot of non gamers to the wii are bogus, granted there is no way to prove this. If the belief that non gamers are flocking to the wii is true, then how is this going to help 3rd parties, as non gamers will most likely not be being a lot of games over the course of each year. So if the non gamers are buying the wii in large numbers, then the installed base will be high, but the attach rate of games will not be.
 
[quote name='jer7583']The "real" games are already coming, though. Just in the last week we had Soul Calibur and Rygar announced.

Just wait, as these company conferences keep happening over the next few weeks, you're going to hear more and more. It's no longer reasonable to write the Wii off due to it's hardware, its' got a real chance of usurping the HD era and holding it back until next gen.

Anyone who has this mentality of "oh well the 360 and the PS3 are the real thing" needs to wake up and realize what the numbers are saying about the market. They want affordable, they want something new, and accessible.

Don't think for a moment that Sony and MS aren't kicking themselves for all the money drained into R&D and hardware after seeing Nintendo cash in on the slightly modified gamecube hardware.[/QUOTE]



Not really, the attach rate for games for 360 is still blowing away Wiis.

We played Rygar on the PS2 already, so what a PS2 port/upgrade to the Wii with tacked on controls? :roll: no thanks. I'm hoping the soulcal is good, but anyone remember Nina's Six degrees game?

Sony might have worked blu-ray to the top with the amount of Blu-ray players they sold ala PS3, I doubt their kicking them selves on that.

Both Sony and MS have the opportunity to say "Hey we can do just like the Wii with better graphics" shake shake shake.
 
I dont think the mass market is ready for the 360 and ps3 yet.

The prices need to come down, and alot, before those systems sell tens of millions of units.

Eventually the ps3 and 360 are gonna be $200, and then they will begin to outsell the Wii.
 
Rygar is coming out for the Wii? I loved the Rygar games. It is just the PS2 version with wii controls? Doesn't really matter to me though as I'll be buying it.

If you look at the new releases coming out, at the end of May it is really starting to pick up.

$200 for the PS3? Do you realize how long it will be until that happens? If ever? That is a $400 price drop.

Here's to hoping Manhunt 2 does really really well on the Wii. Send developers a message. That is one game I will be purchasing brand new day 1 in hopes that if enough sell, we will see more like it.
 
THe Wii is going to hit a wall- the DS will bring in non-gamers, not the Wii. THe Wii will have a hardcore Nintendo audience, maybe some new people, but it will hit a wall. Nintendo fans are buying into this system MUCH faster than the GC, I think. I see the WIi becoming a very niche system. It is just much harder to predict what is going to happen. With the market going into two VERY distinct directions, things are becoming more predictable than ever. If anything, in two years, the 360 will reach MUCH cheaper levels, then that and the PS3 will bring more non-gamers in. They will offer good graphics for people's new HDTVs, have either High-Def downloads or Movie Playback, and have both casual games (XBLA with uno, etc. or PSN games) and more in-depth games. Also, they wil be much cheapper- the 360 will see price drops down to Wii levels in the next year or two. When HDTV's are common, the Wii's graphics will come back and bite it in the butt.
 
[quote name='regisphilbi0']THe Wii is going to hit a wall- the DS will bring in non-gamers, not the Wii. THe Wii will have a hardcore Nintendo audience, maybe some new people, but it will hit a wall. Nintendo fans are buying into this system MUCH faster than the GC, I think. I see the WIi becoming a very niche system. It is just much harder to predict what is going to happen. With the market going into two VERY distinct directions, things are becoming more predictable than ever. If anything, in two years, the 360 will reach MUCH cheaper levels, then that and the PS3 will bring more non-gamers in. They will offer good graphics for people's new HDTVs, have either High-Def downloads or Movie Playback, and have both casual games (XBLA with uno, etc. or PSN games) and more in-depth games. Also, they wil be much cheapper- the 360 will see price drops down to Wii levels in the next year or two. When HDTV's are common, the Wii's graphics will come back and bite it in the butt.[/quote]

In all likelihood if the 360 drops, so does the Wii. In all honesty the 360 has NO REASON to price drop. Why? The PS3 isn't selling.

I think you are also overstating the size of the audience who really cares about Movie Playback and High Def downloads at this point.
 
[quote name='schuerm26']In all likelihood if the 360 drops, so does the Wii. In all honesty the 360 has NO REASON to price drop. Why? The PS3 isn't selling.

I think you are also overstating the size of the audience who really cares about Movie Playback and High Def downloads at this point.[/QUOTE]

Isn't the PS3 selling more then the 360 in the same time frame?

Anyway...

It is interesting to think, but if it does, I'd actually be upset. I like stunning graphics and great online play, but I know that's not some people's thing. Not that the Wii can't have good graphics (if RE4 on the cube is any indicator) I just worry that 3 years from now the 360/ps3 graphics will leave the wii's graphics in the dust.

*awaits getting jumped on by statements of graphics don't matter*
 
HDTVs wont be common enough to affect things in the next few years even if it could, and thats all thats important to THIS generation.

The concept of a wall is fictional, or at best, irrelevant. If you have solid software, like the PS2, you can do well without power.

Its not like there wont be options. You've still got your 360. You dont have to say that the PS3/360's graphics will leave the Wii's in the dust in the next few years....Its already the case now! But enough consumers don't care, and they're not going to change their mind just because you've dangled some shiny keys in front of them.
 
By the way, the rygar tecmo announced is a NEW game. All that was shown was concept art, but it isn't the same characters or look. I don't know why people assumed that it was a port/remake. The PS2 one was fantastic so I have some hopes for this.
 
and whats not going to go down in the same manner as the hardware cost to the consumer are dev costs. Marketshare + Dev costs determine who gets the software. The momentum is extremely hard to reverse once it gets rolling
 
There's a lot of maybe's at play here, but I do think, of any of the systems, the Wii will have the most PS2-like marketshare this generation, though I doubt i will be in the 70% range.

I hope it's a more diverse library on the Wii than on the PS2, though. Outside of RPGs, there was very little you couldn't get similar or better game experiences out of the Xbox or GC. The PS2 platformers had to face Mario, and their action games had to face Ninja Gaiden. Mario Sunshine, for all its faults (and I'll be the first to admit, there were quite a few), was better than any of the games of the same genre that were exclusive to the PS2. Like wise, Ninja Gaiden defined what an action game is; anything else was just an also-ran.

I say that not to bash the PS2 or those who find it to be the best game system ever. Obviously, those are all just my opinions, but stated to make a point: I felt the PS2's software Library, while large and fairly diverse (though heavily slanted towrd the RPG which I have the bias of having zero interest in), went very much for a quantity over quality factor. I don't want Nintendo and 3rd parties just rushing out medicore stuff to sell games. If they bring quality stuff, then I'm excited. EA, Ubisoft, Capcom, listen up. Quality. Not 1/2-assed cash-ins.

That being said, I don't want anyone, including Nintendo, to dominate this generation. The N64 and the PS3 show us what happens when that happens. a 1/3, 1/3, 1/3 marketshare would be the best for gamers, I do believe.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Isn't the PS3 selling more then the 360 in the same time frame?

Anyway...

It is interesting to think, but if it does, I'd actually be upset. I like stunning graphics and great online play, but I know that's not some people's thing. Not that the Wii can't have good graphics (if RE4 on the cube is any indicator) I just worry that 3 years from now the 360/ps3 graphics will leave the wii's graphics in the dust.

*awaits getting jumped on by statements of graphics don't matter*[/quote]That's the void that PC gaming, with its high-def gaming years ago, used to fill before the need transferred over to consoles. Though if the Wii were to dominate the PS3/360, then apparently the majority of console gamers still aren't feeling that need. And if that's the case, don't worry, the next Nintendo console will be HD, so the lowest common denominator will suit your needs.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']HDTVs wont be common enough to affect things in the next few years even if it could, and thats all thats important to THIS generation.
[/QUOTE]

And your evidence of HDTVs not being common enough comes from? Sure it could happen, but they could also see a big enough price drop for people to jump on them.
 
The Wii/PS2 winning this generation isn't a bad thing. All it says is that people rushed to this generation too quickly. Furthermore, the driving force for upgrading systems, graphics, are in a situation where they offer diminishing return.
 
I did quantify that with "if it could" because I think 100% market penetration wouldnt make a difference.

Googling for a number gets me mixed results. Lets pretend that by that Feb 17, 2009, the current date for the end of analog signals (assuming it doesnt get pushed back yet again), that they've met their goal of converting the vast majority of households with either tvs or converter boxes. I'm saying a significant momentum shift that late in the game is so unlikely that I'd rather much say that its impossible.
 
Can you really go by data like that? Not everyone who owns a tv has an interest in playing videogames. (just playing devil's advocate here)
 
My Distopian Thought:

Microsoft and Nintendo both develop strategies focusing on their systems' abilities (xbox live and motion sensors) to succeed. Sony attempts to focus on the more "core" game types with top-notch graphics and the improvements gamers are expecting, but overly cynical critics say that they aren't being creative enough.

As the generation develops and exclusives on Wii and 360 are made, games focus on two components: ingenuity on the former and online play on the latter. Although far from abandoned, concepts that were once the greatest concern and areas of improvement become abandoned. These include graphics, storyline, and, most of all, artificial intelligence. Even gameplay is affected, as a polished concept that has been done 100 times before becomes less interesting than a less fun game that tries something new.

Out of this, a new, slightly simpler generation of gamers emerge. A quick thrill is preferred over an engrossing quest, and those that hold on to old values are quickly discarded. As story, graphics, and presentation dwindles, casual gaming never achieves the goal of this generation: to be considered an art form

On a lighter note: the industry lowers its research in Artificial Intelligence, slowing down the birth of sentient machines and the robopocalypse by 17 years.


EDIT: I just thought of a good comparison to what im trying to say: i feel the wii could do to video gaming what Diablo II did to CRPG's
 
Games are not art, get over it. Oops, I hope I didn't just threadjack my own thread.

Games should be taken seriously as an entertainment medium, but not art, not by a longshot.

If we didn't have the Wii and the PS2 still kicking around, videogames as a business would be a huge, huge failure right now.
 
Story and presentation wouldnt dwindle in that scenario. When you're working with less power, something else has to sell the game. So in the event that the game DOES have a story, it better be a good one, and told well.
 
I still don't understand why Nintendo hasn't made a "true" Pokemon game on a console yet. (Diamond/Pearl style.) It's like they don't want to make millions from just one game. Boggles my mind.
 
[quote name='jer7583']Games are not art, get over it. Oops, I hope I didn't just threadjack my own thread.

Games should be taken seriously as an entertainment medium, but not art, not by a longshot.

If we didn't have the Wii and the PS2 still kicking around, videogames as a business would be a huge, huge failure right now.[/QUOTE]
first off, i feel like, after rereading my own post, that i didnt make myself clear enough that the idea isn't necessarily something i believe in, just a worst case scenario thought

also, art was not a great word to use in the circumstance, just way too vague. However, a more movie-like presentation, where the environment and characters are engrossing, even to the casual gamer, is almost here. Although I hate to quote the guy, I feel David Jaffe said it best with "a game that will make you cry."

Up until maybe the PSone generation, the stuff that we were playing was slapstick, roughly the equivalent of a silent film. This generation, true drama could become the norm.

[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Story and presentation wouldnt dwindle in that scenario. When you're working with less power, something else has to sell the game. So in the event that the game DOES have a story, it better be a good one, and told well.[/QUOTE]
Don't forget, that for every Final Fantasy in that scenario, there were 2-4 generic "spikey haired kids save the world" RPG's. Also, I doubt there will be any story at all for "Flail Arms and Pretend to *Insert Menial Task Here* 2006," which is what the new-gamer (one whose first system is a Wii) will be interested in, and therefore the market will produce.


Once again, hate to piss off everyone with my wii-bashing and foo-foo artsy talk, but I find it fun being the pessimist occasionally.
 
I don't really think that the graphics versus motion debate is something I need to address in my awesomely well-thought out 10-minute post, so I'll talk about another issue people brought up: the XBox 360 or PS3 increasing in sales in a few years after the price drops.

Personally, I don't think it will happen, at least not the way most people describe it happening.

You see, developers (the companies, I mean) really are quite similar to movie, TV, and music companies: they'll follow the market trend if that's where the money is. The problem is that there are two apparent trends in the gaming market: HD content, and motion/touch control. And yet, even with a one year lead, the XBox 360 is only ~3 million units sold ahead of the Wii, and, without a lead the PS3 is about that much behind. Right now, it's undeniable that the Wii has more momentum at this instant than the other consoles--the only system that's selling more than the Wii is the DS Lite. And nobody at Nintendo is losing sleep over that. And over in Japan, it's a two-horse race: the XBox is never going to take the lead in Japan unless it begins dominating in America and Europe.

What I'm getting at is this: if the XBox 360 and the PS3 don't gain more ground now, they probably never will.

If the Wii takes the lead by a considerable margin, the 3rd party developing companies will begin placing an emphasis on the Wii, developing more games for it. This also means that the devs will make fewer games for the PS3 and XBox 360. After all, the bottom line is what matters, and why should they make a game no, a product, and market it to a group of, say, 5-10 million, when they can sell to 10-20 million?

The 3rd party devs and the buyers are inextricably linked. The N64 and Gamecube died from a lack of support, and demonstrated that no one company can support an entire console. If Nintendo, leaning upon the incredible Shigeru Miyamoto, couldn't do it, then Sony and Microsoft can't do it either.

And if the 3rd party devs abandon a system due to a lack of market penetration, then they'll never come back, barring exceptional circumstances. The devs go where the people go, and the people go where the devs go. If a majority of the market throws their support behind the Wii, so will the developers. And once the devs cut or even drop support for a console, people won't suddenly rush out and buy it, just because Microsoft or Sony slashed the price. Most people don't buy consoles for games that came out a year or more ago. That's the domain of hardcore gamers like us. If there's not enough support for the console people won't buy a console: the just won't buy it. Sega gave away the Dreamcast at the very end of its life, and it still couldn't pull ahead against the PS2--the developers had left. Now it's been said (by Icons I think) that the situation was "sort of a self-fulfilling prophecy. The Dreamcast won't be around in two years, devs thought, and so they stopped making games for it. And because they stopped making games for it, the console died." [Something like that]. And yet, that could happen to any of the three consoles on the market.

I'm not saying that the XBox 360 or PS3 is doomed. I'm just saying that if one or both of them doesn't take the lead now, they never will be able to.
 
The Wii owners are largely not new to gaming. What they are is wanting a change of pace. They've been gaming for a long time, and they're not just going to abandon what they grew up on.

Waggle control is only an option. That would be like saying that all DS owners want is stylus control. In some cases, yes, when it makes sense. There is plenty of room for traditional games.

While I own a Wii, I'm still going to be playing PS2 and DS games primarily for the next few years, but I'm a little more budget minded that most.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart'] While I own a Wii, I'm still going to be playing PS2 and DS games primarily for the next few years, but I'm a little more budget minded that most.[/quote]

That's exactly it. Budget minded.

Sorry DMK, but I don't believe any of your crap about 'people want a change', 'it's time to get back to our roots', "HD means nothing, people don't care about power anymore'.

It's money.
The Wii is cheap and fun.

Keyword, CHEAP.

Given the choice, I find it hard to believe that the majority of Americans would choose a Wii over a PS3/360 if only told they could only have one system for the next 5 years.

Cheap, cheap cheap.
 
That scenario doesnt have any relevance since you can have more than one system.

My cheapness isnt the whole story. I've got enough PS1/2 games to last me straight through the entire generation. I wouldntve bought a Wii at all if it was just more of the same. If I was given a PS3 for free, like through a contest or something, I wouldnt keep it. Not entirely because I'm cheap, but also because so far, its just more of the same, but prettier to me. Maybe once I clear my backlog I'll be ready for more of the same but prettier, but not yet.
 
First of all, as for HD-TV....

there are 19 inch LCD HDTVs with one ATSC tuner and 1 component input for $249 out at stores right now. Circuit City, Fry's, even Wal-Mart, their main electronic shift is HDTVs....look at floor space..look at advertising: you have to be crazy if you think HDTV won't be relevant at all. With marketing, the sheer fact that Wal-Mart is the only place you can really get a piece of shit analog TV, and the FCC rules about digital TV and HD as standards coming into place soon: there's no way HDTV won't be relevant at all. The same way the consumer adopted DVD as a mainstream format, HDTV will quickly become the only display technology available on a widescale, and if you go to stores, why would anyone pay $350 for an analog SD 32 inch tube when they could pay $400 - $500 for a 20-27 inch LCD or a 30 inch CRT? Even at the budget segment, eventually the $100 20 inch tube will fall victim to the 20 inch flat panel.

Second of all, I don't want to get into a fight with anyone specific..but..

I hope it's a more diverse library on the Wii than on the PS2, though. Outside of RPGs, there was very little you couldn't get similar or better game experiences out of the Xbox or GC. The PS2 platformers had to face Mario, and their action games had to face Ninja Gaiden. Mario Sunshine, for all its faults (and I'll be the first to admit, there were quite a few), was better than any of the games of the same genre that were exclusive to the PS2. Like wise, Ninja Gaiden defined what an action game is; anything else was just an also-ran.
Click to expand...

Sly, Jak, Dexter, and Kratos would have a problem with this. Hope you don't find yourself a sheep or mauled by the Blades of Chaos.

How in the world could anyone say Mario Sunshine was way better than every single solid PS2 platform? And while I am loving Ninja Gaiden Sigma, is it really fair to say Ninja Gaiden makes every other action game look like shit? I've never played God of War more than 10 minutes but I'd say it definitely is up there with Ninja Gaiden. The PS2 was/is pretty much king for every single genre.

Racing: Gran Turismo, Tourist Trophy, solid multiplatform racers, plus titles like Twisted Metal and F1.

Fighting: Soul Calibur, Virtua Fighter, Tekken, and every 2d fighter ever made.

Rhythm: Dance Dance, Karaoke, Guitar, Space Channel, Gitaroo, Rez.

Action: God of War, Syphon Filter, Metal Gear Solid.

Platform: Sly, Jak, Ico, SoTC.

Plus the mainstream could find enough FPS and sports to have their fill. And though you don't like them, RPG's like no other: every big series ended up on the PS2, obscure niche games came out that never would have seen the light of day, and games like Final Fantasy and Xenosaga just never happened on the Gamecube or Xbox.


However, I guess it's all opinion, you have to say though, if you look at Sly and you look at Mario, both are good games with no coding errors and they both play so solid and smooth, so it's all a matter of what console you own and what character you like best.



And now..

back to the topic at hand, beware, the next pargraphs are FILLED with bias

Here is the truth: girls don't play games, at least not long enough to influence the market. So yes, the DS Lite and Wii are hot with the ladies, but remember: females [and as one, I should know] are fickle. We love one thing, then we move on. So that counts the female market out...while some will say "Oh god what I have I missed out on" and keep gaming, most are happy playing Wii sports every other week or keeping up with their Sims now and then.

And lastly, the main demographic: gamers. Now I realize some of you are die hard Nintendo fanboys, I also realize some of you just hate Sony, but seriously? Can every single one of you "Wii is the future" or "Nintendo has changed gaming" people tell me you'll never get the urge to play a fighter, an FPS, an RPG, a racing game, a rhythm game, or anything that's the norm? Can you honestly tell me you'll be happy tilting and waggling for the rest of your life? And can you honestly tell me, you're okay with graphics, sound, art, and presentation stopping at where you are now?

I'm pretty sure most of you, except the hardcore Nintendo fanboys, could NOT say that. That's why many of you own more than just a Wii or a DS, because you need certain types of game, certain types of tech, that Nintendo just can't deliver. If you still have to look to other consoles to fill all your gaming needs, then Nintendo never really wins the war, Nintendo never really acheives the type of penetration the fanboys make it seem it has already has. To be honest they've been playing the exact same game for the past 10 years. Everyone but the Nintendo camp, wants more, expects more, demands more.

In the end, the Final Fantasies, the Halos, the Tekkens, the Gran Turismos, the Gears of Wars, those are the games that define a console, those are the games that change gaming, those are the games that in the end sell consoles and keep video gaming alive, and not only that, but push it past its limits and definite as a media as an art form and as a technology. Maybe some of you see "Final Fantasy" or "Halo" or "Tekken" as the exact same game every single time, maybe some of you think every Mario game is a brand new genre filled with innovation and think every other game is a shameless shovelware sequel, but in the end, a truly well made game that can blow you away in every sensE: looking good, sounding good, playing good, will always be above a game that can only deliver one aspect. So a Nintendo game is fun? Cool, cool. but this other game is just as fun, but on top of that it looks better, sounds better, plays better, I think I know which one I am going with.

Sales are one thing, reality is another. The Backstreet Boys and early Britney Spears sold as much as Led Zeppelin or Pink Floyd albums. More people have bought a CD by Christina Aguilera than a CD of recordings of Bach and Chopin. A whole lot more people buy Harlequin romance novels and self help books, over Kafka and Greek Mythology. Way more people watch Friends than Planet Earth. The average Spongebob game sells more copies than all three Xenosagas combined. More people have seen YOU GOT SERVED than Amelie. And more people drink Kool-Aid than not from concentrate pure squeezed orange juice...

Does that mean BSB and Brit are more legitimate artists? Does that mean Christina IS music and Bach and Chopin are losers?

Is the run of the mill sexed up romance tale more relevant than Kafka or the Odyssey?

Is Friends higher in production values and purpose than Planet Earth?

Is "Sponge Bob Battle for Bikini Bottom" a more legitimate game with 10x better gameplay and a better presentation than Xenosaga?

Is You Got Served an example of fine film making with a thrilling narrative and perfect acting?

Is Kool Aid better tasting or more nutritious than pure squeezed orange juice?

The answer to the above is NO, for every single question. NO. The simple truth is the lowest common denominator is always on top, the simple truth is that shit sells because shit sells and no one can do a thing about it, in fact, more people embrace it than fight it. Let it be, people buy what people tell them to buy, people base themselves on what is hot and trendy, or people buy whatever is cheapest. The Wii and DS have the extreme good luck that not only do they have the word of mouth, not only are they hot and trendy, but on top of that, they're cheaper than the competition. Meaning that if Time magazine or E! says "Oh god, the Wii is so fun, PS3 are for losers" , then it's true, no matter what. And there they go, essentialy paying for a Gamecube and a XaviX in one box.

If you think the DS market and Wii market are fueled by anything other than the type of people who by DOGZ and Spongebob Creature from the Krusty Krab, you're so wrong. Look at the Target DS $24 sale...at least in my experience: FF 3, Club House Games, RPG's, niche games, all in stock. What was sold out? Nintendogs, Brain Age, Hannah Montana, That's So Raven. Look at the Wii launch line up, besides Zelda, what else was there? Third party shovelware and kids games.

And essentialy, the people who are buying a Wii just because they want Mario Galaxy or Smash Brothers are the exact same thing as the Dogz and Spongebob people, because in the end: YOU MAKE IT SO fuckING EASY FOR NINTENDO. All they have to do is release the same damn game with a new gimmick [Mario is going galactic now!! Yay!!!] and let the third parties make their licensed crap and their company can profit. In the end, you don't want the Wii to be this awesome console where every single gamer can find something new to play, where every boundary and limit is pushed, no, you want to play the exact same thing you've always played [Mario, Zelda, etc] just like I want to play the exact same thing I've always played [RPG''s, fighters, traditional games] and what's worse, you're happy playing those games with the exact same textures [and don't lie, look at Twilight Princess, look at the screen shots for Nights Wii, those are all straight from the N64]

Only thing is, Hot Topic says its cool. Mario and Zelda are hip and us PS3 and 360 owners are a bunch of lonely loser geeks who have no friends.
 
[quote name='sarausagi']
If you think the DS market and Wii market are fueled by anything other than the type of people who by DOGZ and Spongebob Creature from the Krusty Krab, you're so wrong. [/QUOTE]

If you're the type that thinks the above, you are in terrible, terrible denial, and it's for two reasons.

1. No. That's conjecture you can't prove, and it harkens back to the "hardcore" argument, which has been done to death many times (especially by myself, which is why I'm sick of talking about it).

2. You could level the same argument at any system. What about the people who buy a 360 and only play Halo on it? What about the people who buy a PS2/3 and only play Madden on it? And the people who buy only Pokemon on portable systems?

Your statement is equivalent to any one of those. Sony fans especially like to act like that the largest user base somehow caused them to get this great share of enlightened gamers. There's no way to validate that kind of claim, but I'm pretty sure you could disprove it if you looked at the average Gamestop, where there are hundreds of used copies of sports and licensed games. However, those same groups of games are just in as big of stashes on the other systems, at which point I'm happy to think that this whole notion of this mystical set of gamers who practice gaming like tai chi is really just a bunch of bullshit.

The point is that all three systems are all bringing unique stuff to the table. Period. Stop pretending that if you ignore games like Dead Rising and Halo 3 that the 360 is shit. Or that if you honestly think Wii Sports is boring, that the entire system is a joke. Even that some of the stuff on the PS3 (which I can't really comment on, but that will undoubtedly show up) is somehow magically better. They're all going to have equal shares of shit, and while the wrought percentages might vary, in the end it doesn't f*cking matter if you've only got time to play the good shit anyway. And, oddly, I think we are able to discern that. So any argument that says "wow that game got a 2.3, thus the system sucks" is worthless because NONE OF US GIVE A SHIT ABOUT IT ANWYAY.

Law of averages, law of thirds, however you want to spell it out, but it affects all systems (I'd wager) pretty evenly. Don't sit there and pretend that only the Wii is somehow going to harbor all of the people buying the latest Shrek game. It's going to happen with as great a frequency on the other systems, even if it comes in the form of the Madden gamer, the FPS gamer, the bullshit-JRPG gamer, etc etc etc.

We as a group of gamers who know what is good and what is bad should stop pretending we're some kind of elite task force designed to combat the droves of casual gamers. Brain Age might be attempting to reach out to JoeMama48 who lives in Lamb fuckers, USA, but I gaurantee you they've got a match on the PS2 who thinks Big Mutha Truckaz is the best thing ever.

So paint all these morbid, twisted fantasies all you want about how Nintendo is supposedly dumbing down and destroying gaming from the inside because they've managed to sell a system to the public based on a lot of different factors, the greatest of which rely on the Wiimote and the price.

The really retarded thing about all of this is that had Nintendo continued what they did with the Gamecube, they'd slowly erode away, and they'd get just as much bullshit from the "hardcore enlightened" camp as they do now. Might as well tell us all to f*ck off and do what they want. We weren't going to be happy with what they were going to do no matter what. Give us a HD enabled system with a better Mario, and everyone cries it's not exactly what they want. Try something different, "omfg u n00bz don't know what u r doin." We're unpleasable. We think we're entitled to so much when all we are is another customer to a giant corporation feeding off our monies, who could (in all reality) really not care less if we're supporting them, their competitors, or some combination there of. ESPECIALLY when we're mostly going to be multi-console crowds anyway, so we're even less of a factor to consider than, say, the world at large.

Nintendo told us to f*ck off because they pretty much had no choice. That's exactly what they did, and I gaurantee their entire workforce is sleeping happier tonight because of it. The moment we get Mario 64 2, we decry it as a lame rehash. But we get Sunshine instead? "Wtf I wanted Mario 64 2." If all you're going to do is feed a customer that just bites your hand, might as well try something else.

If you like Xenosaga, fine. Looked like boring bullshit typical anime assleak to me. And you are damn well welcome to think Mario is the same. But we've really got to stop all this portent that "omfg, the Wii is the trojan horse DEWM of gaming," because that's the most retarded thing in the world.

Oh, and the irony of slamming all the Nintendo franchises while upholding Jak and Daxtar/Sly Cooper/Ratchet and Clank is enough to make me want to punch myself in the balls, if I didn't have a line of people all ready and willing to do that for me.
 
[quote name='Strell']

Brain Age might be attempting to reach out to JoeMama48 who lives in Lamb fuckers, USA, but I gaurantee you they've got a match on the PS2 who thinks Big Mutha Truckaz is the best thing ever.


[/QUOTE]

Posting my post was completely worth it just for that, if I had a sig, that'd be it.

However, one thing can be proved: the licensed games are not really available on the 360 and PS3. There are a few "decent" ones and they're not out there. As of right now, Spiderman is the first licensed game for the PS3 [and I hear it sucked on all consoles..] and the 360 is missing quite a few [Avatar, Ghost Rider, lots of the Disney games]

In other words, what I think is weird is that when you launch a console, you try to keep the launch serious. I remember during the Gamecube launch, everyone said it was crap, but looking back at it [and anticipating a $30 cube from Gamestop in the near future] there were tons of good titles. However, looking at the Wii wall, except for Madden and maybe Marvel..it looked a lot like the kids section for PS2 at Toys R Us.

As for the Sony "franchises", have you played them? I've played Sly 2, the first Jak, and the first Ratchet. I enjoyed them quite a bit, not on the level of NiGHTS or Mario 64 [which set a standard back in the day] but still enjoyable. Up until now, the first party Nintendo franchises haven't reached a very good level...unless all of a sudden everyone changed their mind about Luigi's Mansion and Sunshine
 
First of all, I wont even conceed that women, or any new demographic of gamers are making a huge impact right now. To an extent, thats just marketing speak from Nintendo.

Unless a whole lot of people are going to be getting both a PS3 AND a 360, the Wii can win as a secondary console.

If:
a) Single console owners cancel each other out enough
b) All 3 console owners cancel each other out

Then out of the two console owners, if:
(PS3:Wii)+(360:Wii)>(PS3+360),

then Wii ends up with majority marketshare unless the Wii flops completely.

You make some pretty ridiculous comparisons and assumptions

You assume that the Wii has nothing to offer traditional gamers, and also that exclusive Wii owners dont care about those traditional games.

I play mostly traditional games, and I imagine that I will continue to do so. Just like I do on the DS, where every game is not microphone or touch controlled or even dual screened(effectively).

Did Tales of Symphonia outsell and outrate many of PS2 contemporaries?

Which platform did Soul Calibur 2 sell the most units on?

and the kicker for me:

Does an HD Xenosaga warrant a single dime of cost more than a PS2 Xenosaga?

For me, no.

I am very satisfied with the level of graphical and other achievement, and require nothing further. I use composite video despite having S-video capability, because the sharper image is not even worth $5 extra to me.

Yes, the PS2 is the king of every genre. The PS3 and 360, are not.

So people who buy a Wii for Smash and Mario are more of a problem than buying a 360 for shooters? Really?

Are marketshare and dev costs really completely irrelevant anymore?

Is a small Japanese RPG developer really going to look to develop a game for the Japanese market, and ignore the Wii for the PS3, with higher dev costs and dramatically lower marketshare? Really? Fire Emblem uses the classic controller, it doesnt have any waggle at all that I'm aware of.
 
[quote name='sarausagi']Posting my post was completely worth it just for that, if I had a sig, that'd be it.

However, one thing can be proved: the licensed games are not really available on the 360 and PS3. There are a few "decent" ones and they're not out there. As of right now, Spiderman is the first licensed game for the PS3 [and I hear it sucked on all consoles..] and the 360 is missing quite a few [Avatar, Ghost Rider, lots of the Disney games]

In other words, what I think is weird is that when you launch a console, you try to keep the launch serious. I remember during the Gamecube launch, everyone said it was crap, but looking back at it [and anticipating a $30 cube from Gamestop in the near future] there were tons of good titles. However, looking at the Wii wall, except for Madden and maybe Marvel..it looked a lot like the kids section for PS2 at Toys R Us.

As for the Sony "franchises", have you played them? I've played Sly 2, the first Jak, and the first Ratchet. I enjoyed them quite a bit, not on the level of NiGHTS or Mario 64 [which set a standard back in the day] but still enjoyable. Up until now, the first party Nintendo franchises haven't reached a very good level...unless all of a sudden everyone changed their mind about Luigi's Mansion and Sunshine[/QUOTE]

A few things.

1. I loved Luigi's Mansion, but I know I am in the minority. It didn't do anything new at all, but it looked great, was fluid to control, and had a lot of little touches that I really enjoyed. I hope every day I'm going to hear about LM2.

2. Super Mario Sunshine: see above.

3. As far as the launch of the Wii is concerned, as has been said (again, by me) multiple times - almost all of the major third parties didn't think it would sell as a system. The only real support at launch was from EA and Ubisoft, and right now they are singing HUGE praises for their sales solely from the Wii. Haven't you noticed how there's suddenly a surge of support from third parties - particularly Japanese, given the situation in the homeland - lately? Just last night we got word Rygar is coming to the Wii. Rygar. From Tecmo.

A year ago you could not have convinced me Tecmo would ever touch a Nintendo console, given their fanatic support of both the PS2 and Xbox/360.

Point being is that if you want to sit there and talk about launches, you have to take into account the attitude third parties had at the time, and what they are thinking now, which is basically "F*CK why didn't we have a game out on on the Wii by now???"

As for the firsty party shoulder to combat this, I imagine Nintendo was very content to think "Zelda is enough," which I also imagine no honest "hardcore" gaming community would agree with, since we generally respond to "Nintendo launch" with "new Mario game." And at this point, they're probably content to think they've got enough first party stuff out there that they can take some time to perfect what's in the pipeline (Metroid, Brawl, etc).

In short, the launch is affected by some different criteria the 360 and the PS3 don't have to contend with, which both hurts and helps.

4. I'm not saying the Sony franchises aren't good, but I'm saying there's no room for difference when you try to put out a sequel every damn year.
 
I really have to wonder what people who think that the Wii is doomed thought about the DS and PSP back before they were out.

Marketshare is still the biggest factor in who gets what games or games at all. Doesnt particularly matter how the marketshare was attained. You can continue this discussion when people actually stop buying the damn Wiis
 
[quote name='Strell']A few things.

1. I loved Luigi's Mansion, but I know I am in the minority. It didn't do anything new at all, but it looked great, was fluid to control, and had a lot of little touches that I really enjoyed. I hope every day I'm going to hear about LM2.

2. Super Mario Sunshine: see above.

3. As far as the launch of the Wii is concerned, as has been said (again, by me) multiple times - almost all of the major third parties didn't think it would sell as a system. The only real support at launch was from EA and Ubisoft, and right now they are singing HUGE praises for their sales solely from the Wii. Haven't you noticed how there's suddenly a surge of support from third parties - particularly Japanese, given the situation in the homeland - lately? Just last night we got word Rygar is coming to the Wii. Rygar. From Tecmo.

A year ago you could not have convinced me Tecmo would ever touch a Nintendo console, given their fanatic support of both the PS2 and Xbox/360.

Point being is that if you want to sit there and talk about launches, you have to take into account the attitude third parties had at the time, and what they are thinking now, which is basically "F*CK why didn't we have a game out on on the Wii by now???"

As for the firsty party shoulder to combat this, I imagine Nintendo was very content to think "Zelda is enough," which I also imagine no honest "hardcore" gaming community would agree with, since we generally respond to "Nintendo launch" with "new Mario game." And at this point, they're probably content to think they've got enough first party stuff out there that they can take some time to perfect what's in the pipeline (Metroid, Brawl, etc).

In short, the launch is affected by some different criteria the 360 and the PS3 don't have to contend with, which both hurts and helps.

4. I'm not saying the Sony franchises aren't good, but I'm saying there's no room for difference when you try to put out a sequel every damn year.[/QUOTE]

For one, I am with you on Luigi, when the Cube sees that price drop, I'm picking it up simply because the demos I've played are all fun...they could make a really good Ghostbusters game with that game engine...I think it made Sunshine look bad. The first years of the Cube for me were ALL kiosks and I swear, when I played Sunshine for 20 minutes, I was honestly thinking, "Luigi's Mansion is better"

And there is the belief I've always had, Nintendo works best when it's thinking outside the box. It kind of made me really mad that Pokemon DS hasn't changed much from Pokemon GBA or even GBC. I think it's pretty obvious with the right programming, DS can produce some amazing results graphically and in terms of user interface, but hearing the same mono 8 bit growls and seeing the menus are still pretty much the same made me actually stop playing the game.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I really have to wonder what people who think that the Wii is doomed thought about the DS and PSP back before they were out.

Marketshare is still the biggest factor in who gets what games or games at all. Doesnt particularly matter how the marketshare was attained. You can continue this discussion when people actually stop buying the damn Wiis[/QUOTE]

Well, remember, back in the early days of DS/PSP, lots of people though both consoles would fail. That Christmas the GBA still sold like hot cakes and the DS and PSP struggled to go off the shelves. People said the games weren't good, people said the hardware was chunky.

So I don't know....the DS Lite became the obvious leader in total sales when it was getting bad forecast at the start, and the PSP has picked up when no one expected it, and it's standing a good fight against the DS/GBA [and no other company has done that before] so nothing is as it really seems.
 
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