Manhunt 2 coming to Wii.

So the only reason I was prepared to buy a Wii has now been fucked. R* has to go back to the drawing board now right? Is there any way they could just distribute it solely through online retailers? It assume it is too big to DL on the Wii via digital distribution. Shit, I'd rather see an AO than an outright Ban, however if the Wii can only be used for waggle games and adding virtual sutures to a virtual anal fissure as I imagine one does on trauma center, then I hope the kiddies and their mommies can support the entire Wii market, because it's doomed to fail.

So it's okay to see violence and control it on the screen, as long as your not physically acting it out?
 
Don't jump to conclusions just yet. Manhunt's main appeal was its extreme graphical violence and grotesque presentation, so if you're surprised by this you are probably in the minority.

Get some popcorn and watch. This is going to be fun.
 
Since we have the "Resident Evil 4 Wii - June 19, 2007 - Support M-rated Games!" should we change this one to "- Support AO-rated games!"

In all honesty this game deserves the ratings, and from what you can read in different forums you see more and more people actually wanting to purchase it just to have an AO rated game. With all the things you get to do, whether by pressing buttons or motion control deserves an AO.

The gamers will buy it regardless if they wanted it in the first place, but it's the mainstream that might miss out. Though with word of mouth, there still will be locations where one will be able to purchase it. Hell...I don't know, the way people are talking maybe the AO rating will boost sales even more. I just hope Nintendo all of a sudden decides to not let the game be on their system due to the rating. Now...about "No more Heroes" trying to be more violent than Manhunt 2....lets talk about that then. :D
 
[quote name='D4rkewolfe']Since we have the "Resident Evil 4 Wii - June 19, 2007 - Support M-rated Games!" should we change this one to "- Support AO-rated games!"[/quote]

I honestly think that even if this is rated AO - the game will get enough noteriety that it will sell well, even if it is only through the online markets.
 
[quote name='D4rkewolfe']Since we have the "Resident Evil 4 Wii - June 19, 2007 - Support M-rated Games!" should we change this one to "- Support AO-rated games!"[/quote]
Nintendo's publishing policy forbids AO rated game on their system, according to 4colorrebellion. I don't quite support Nintendo's decision in this, but I can't say shit: their system - "their" games.

They could release it as free software on Linux, though. (And still chanrge $50.)
 
Wait, I thought it was Nintendo's policy that AO games are not allowed on their platforms.

I'm guessing the game would have to 'toned down' to get that M rating.

EDIT: Colbert beat me.
 
[quote name='MarioColbert']Be honest, now... Are you surprised?[/quote]
Faster on the boards, and even faster with the ladies.

Anyway, here's a better link from Nintendo:

http://www.nintendo.com/consumer/buyers_guide.jsp#ratings

Notice the asterisk at the bottom:

*Please note that Nintendo does not sell or license games that carry the ESRB rating "AO" (Adults Only).
Click to expand...

EDIT: DAMNIT! Now Scrub is beating me to the punch!
 
[quote name='dallow']Wait, I thought it was Nintendo's policy that AO games are not allowed on their platforms.

I'm guessing the game would have to 'toned down' to get that M rating.

EDIT: Colbert beat me.[/quote]

It would be anyway, there's no way they'll release it as an AO game.

They'd miss sales from pretty much all of the retail chains if they don't tone it down and change enough to give the game a M rating.
 
I say make all the hunters into teddy bears. Then all we would have to worry about would be PETSA (People for the ethical treatment of stuffed animals). Too lame? Yeah...I tried
 
I really wonder if this stink isn't a publicity stunt, since the last 50 entries or so in my Google Reader subscription have been Manhunt 2 related, with the UK ban and AO rating in the States. I see this popping up in News channels as well (both Google News and BBC as well). This pretty much ensures that if you're online, you probably have heard about this by now.
 
[quote name='MarioColbert']I really wonder if this stink isn't a publicity stunt, since the last 50 entries or so in my Google Reader subscription have been Manhunt 2 related, with the UK ban and AO rating in the States. I see this popping up in News channels as well (both Google News and BBC as well). This pretty much ensures that if you're online, you probably have heard about this by now.[/QUOTE]

I don't see why Rockstar would make two versions of the same game just to get some extra publicity that may or may not work.

The fact is that the ESRB has a thing against T2 and all their games, and are heavily influenced by watchdog groups and politicians. They would rather appease the Leeland Yees of the world than rate a game fairly imo.

I would usually be really angry right now, but I know what the ESRB is and it can't be helped. Maybe one day the gaming industry will put them in their place and stop them from pandering to the wrong people, but until then we have to put up with their bullshit.
 
[quote name='PleasantOne']I am so fuck ing sick of people with this argument, though. When did this country decide to stop trying to get people to be decent parents and start trying to make big business do the job for them? I have no interest in this game, but I'm tempted to buy it just to piss off these polticial assholes.

Putting an AO rating on Manhunt 2 isn't going to do anything for kids. If they have useless dipshits for parents, they're going to be fucked up whether they play this game or not :roll:

And don't give me any of this, "Well some parents just don't undestand about the content of these games...," then the idiots should LEARN before they give it to their kids - DUH!

Maybe we need to mark stuff like rat poison in big letters on the front that says explicity "DON'T FEED THIS TO YOUR KIDS!", cause, you know, people might be too stupid to figure it out from the rest of the info on the box...

Has anyone ever stopped to think that the government holding everyone's hand is probably what has made most of the people today so fucking stupid? :p

*huff huff*

[/not so pleasant rant][/quote]

You deserve a medal.
 
[email protected]

Patricia Vance

I believe this is the woman at the ESRB who got the title rated AO. As mature gamers, please write to her in a respectful manner and ask her to stand up for mature gamers and not censorship. I'm not 100% sure that the e-mail will work, but the message I sent her hasn't bounced back yet so I'm assuming it works. Let her know your stance and please for god's sake, be mature about it.

Please do the right thing and give Manhunt 2 an M rating. Hostel, Saw, and various other films never received the dreaded NC-17 rating so I don't understand why Manhunt 2 has to go through this indignation.

Prove to the people who are this industry's livelihood why you stand up for them and not the special interest groups whose only goal in life is a hypocritical 'think of the children!' mentality. If they were doing their jobs as parents, Manhunt 2 would never end up in their hands to begin with and Ms. Vance, you know this to be true.

Please all you're doing is punishing the adult gamers this title was aimed for by essentially having the game blacklisted from the market and it's pretty much a backhanded manner of censorship. Please don't do this.

Thank you and take care.

Zen Davis
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='Scrubking']I don't see why Rockstar would make two versions of the same game just to get some extra publicity that may or may not work.

The fact is that the ESRB has a thing against T2 and all their games, and are heavily influenced by watchdog groups and politicians. They would rather appease the Leeland Yees of the world than rate a game fairly imo.

I would usually be really angry right now, but I know what the ESRB is and it can't be helped. Maybe one day the gaming industry will put them in their place and stop them from pandering to the wrong people, but until then we have to put up with their bullshit.[/quote]

The "publicity stunt" was more or less of a joke - I just wanted to point out that the media is eating this up like I do fried chicken.

Do you know something I don't? Last I have checked, we have no idea what the content of the game is, so ESRB could very well have been right on with their assesment of the game.

I'll oppose a government-regulated ban a-la UK any day. ESRB was created to do exactly what they've done here - to assist consumers in order to prevent them from being offended. Their judgement isn't as flawed as one would think - they could potentially land in deep waters, since they are entitled to review. Which means that they have on the books right now as to why exactly Manhunt was rated AO.

We may discuss morality of AO rating all day. Yes, it's exactly censorship, but it is one that depends on market strategy alone (i.e. no goverment's ass in this). I think a better question to ask is that even if Manhunt _WAS_ a legitimately "AO" rated title, wouldn't you consider Nintendo at fault for not allowing them to publish it for their system? Nintendo would censor Rockstar directly in that case. And that's a much more interesting observation than ESRB giving a particularly violent title a rather harsh rating.
 
[quote name='MarioColbert']The "publicity stunt" was more or less of a joke - I just wanted to point out that the media is eating this up like I do fried chicken.

Do you know something I don't? Last I have checked, we have no idea what the content of the game is, so ESRB could very well have been right on with their assesment of the game.

I'll oppose a government-regulated ban a-la UK any day. ESRB was created to do exactly what they've done here - to assist consumers in order to prevent them from being offended. Their judgement isn't as flawed as one would think - they could potentially land in deep waters, since they are entitled to review. Which means that they have on the books right now as to why exactly Manhunt was rated AO.

We may discuss morality of AO rating all day. Yes, it's exactly censorship, but it is one that depends on market strategy alone (i.e. no goverment's ass in this). I think a better question to ask is that even if Manhunt _WAS_ a legitimately "AO" rated title, wouldn't you consider Nintendo at fault for not allowing them to publish it for their system? Nintendo would censor Rockstar directly in that case. And that's a much more interesting observation than ESRB giving a particularly violent title a rather harsh rating.[/quote]

Essentially though, in real world semantics, it's a ban.
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']Essentially though, in real world semantics, it's a ban.[/quote]

No doubt about that. If the game was allowed for publication, however, an AO game CAN be carried by retailers willing to sell it (such as online ones) and CAN be legally purchased by persons of age.

My point is that with a government regulation banning the title in the UK, the citizens have no other option than importing it from the U.S. since no UK-based retailer (online or not) is legally permitted to sell the game. The fact that there are people that don't want this game out is not a surprising one.

Despite Nintendo being firm about what they do and do not want on their console, ESRB rating the game is miles more consumer friendly than UK Government Ban. (And I'll be up-front about this: Nintendo reserves every right to do so, no matter how frustrating it may be to us - our vote in this can only be in the form of not purchasing their console.)
 
[quote name='MarioColbert']The "publicity stunt" was more or less of a joke - I just wanted to point out that the media is eating this up like I do fried chicken.

Do you know something I don't? Last I have checked, we have no idea what the content of the game is, so ESRB could very well have been right on with their assesment of the game.

I'll oppose a government-regulated ban a-la UK any day. ESRB was created to do exactly what they've done here - to assist consumers in order to prevent them from being offended. Their judgement isn't as flawed as one would think - they could potentially land in deep waters, since they are entitled to review. Which means that they have on the books right now as to why exactly Manhunt was rated AO.

We may discuss morality of AO rating all day. Yes, it's exactly censorship, but it is one that depends on market strategy alone (i.e. no goverment's ass in this). I think a better question to ask is that even if Manhunt _WAS_ a legitimately "AO" rated title, wouldn't you consider Nintendo at fault for not allowing them to publish it for their system? Nintendo would censor Rockstar directly in that case. And that's a much more interesting observation than ESRB giving a particularly violent title a rather harsh rating.[/QUOTE]

Well, I'm of the opinion that the AO rating isn't a real rating anymore. The ESRB is well aware that an AO game is something a developer tries to avoid, and that AO games are not accepted by consoles or stores. So I believe they use the AO rating when they want to ban a game without banning it.

Does Manhunt 2 deserve an AO rating? That subjective, but unless it is a straight up hardcore porno game with graphic porno scenes I would say no. Then again I go by the standard that every other form of entertainment seems to follow where full frontal nudity, non-graphic sex and violence (hostel 2) are perfectly acceptable for 17+

Do I fault console companies for banning AO games? No because I believe that AO was designed for straight up porno games - which should have an AO. Why do you think most places won't carry AO games? Somewhere along the road AO became the defacto ban stick for games that might be too controversial.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']
Does Manhunt 2 deserve an AO rating? That subjective, but unless it is a straight up hardcore porno game with graphic porno scenes I would say no. [/QUOTE]

So sex, something which is perfectly natural, deserves an AO but brutally graphic violence does not?

I though only the losers rating games and movies had these ass backwards moral standards.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']So sex, something which is perfectly natural, deserves an AO but brutally graphic violence does not?

I though only the losers rating games and movies had these ass backwards moral standards.[/QUOTE]

Porno by law is AO so it makes sense that it's AO for games. Graphic violence has never been AO for the most part. That's just the way it is.
 
[quote name='D4rkewolfe']That's the mentality in the U.S. anyways.[/QUOTE]

True, in the mainstream. One of the many annoying things about our culture.

Always dissapointing to see it upheld, especially among younger crowd on a gaming forum.
 
[quote name='MarioColbert']We may discuss morality of AO rating all day. Yes, it's exactly censorship, but it is one that depends on market strategy alone (i.e. no goverment's ass in this). I think a better question to ask is that even if Manhunt _WAS_ a legitimately "AO" rated title, wouldn't you consider Nintendo at fault for not allowing them to publish it for their system? Nintendo would censor Rockstar directly in that case. And that's a much more interesting observation than ESRB giving a particularly violent title a rather harsh rating.[/quote]

Whille I still have a beef with the ESRB and the media over this AO business, perhaps we aught to be targeting Nintendo over this... voicing our support for the game, and for overall variety on the console. Anyone know a good email addy to use for them? We could stage an intervention :p
 
Anyone who is comparing this to a violent movie really needs to have a reality check. This is FAR different then sitting through a 2 hr bloodbath movie as the level of interaction is 100% different.

This game by all means deserves an adults only rating.
 
[quote name='schuerm26']Anyone who is comparing this to a violent movie really needs to have a reality check. This is FAR different then sitting through a 2 hr bloodbath movie as the level of interaction is 100% different.

This game by all means deserves an adults only rating.[/quote]

Movies are a series of images of actual living, breathing people... games are just a bunch of pixels that don't look anything close to real. So it *is* FAR different, but I would argue it works the opposite of the way you claim.

I would ask the simple question, what would be more likely to elicit anger from you - bad guys in a video game, or bad guys in a movie? If you don't count the "grrr, I can't get past this level!" sort of anger, then I think most people would say movies. They generally (hopefully) have storylines that are developed much better than those found in games, and therefore (I would argue), we're likely more psychologically affected by how that "bad guy" affects the "good guy" in the movie we're watching, as we're more emotionally involved.
 
The difference is games are interactive. Watching a movie you're looking at the violence and can be appalled by characters actions.

In a game, you have to make the decisions and control them to brutally kill someone.

Seems like that would be more likely to desensitize someone to violence, rather than merely watching it to me.

Personally, I'm not a big fan of uber violent films like Hostel or uber violent games like Manhunt.

But if I had to endure one or the other, I'd take the film over Manhunt as I just can't stomach playing games that are that sadistically violent.
 
To me, shooting pixels would bother me less that seeing actual people being shot in a movie. Perhaps that is just me? For me, games could never be realistic enough to bother me like actual, *real* images could. I would think people would be more desensitized by seeing the real thing, as compared to a pixelated interpretation.
 
[quote name='PleasantOne']To me, shooting pixels would bother me less that seeing actual people being shot in a movie. Perhaps that is just me? For me, games could never be realistic enough to bother me like actual, *real* images could. I would think people would be more desensitized by seeing the real thing, as compared to a pixelated interpretation.[/QUOTE]


See the thing is your bothered by the real images, replsed in fact it sounds.

But in playing the game you're doing hideous things to game versions of people, that's where the greater potential for desensitization comes in.

Not to mention brain imaging studies have shown that playing violent games activates the parts of the brain associated with aggression more than watching a violent movie does for just this reason. It's interactive, movies are more passive.

Also, I'd argue the "pixelized" argument is getting more moot with each generation and games getting closer and closer to realism. They're catching up to movies in that regard.

Now, don't take that to mean that I think there shouldnt' be violent games, or that violent games turn people into psycho killers. :D

Because I don't. I just think any negative effects violent media may have on SOME peolpe are certainly going to be greater for interactive media like video games, compared to more passive media like films.

But neither should be banned etc.
 
[quote name='schuerm26']Anyone who is comparing this to a violent movie really needs to have a reality check. This is FAR different then sitting through a 2 hr bloodbath movie as the level of interaction is 100% different.

This game by all means deserves an adults only rating.[/quote]

Which a Mature rating is anyway. Mature says recommended for people 17+ up. Legally to be an adult you have to be 18. Not much of a diffrence. The AO rating is just as pointelss as the NC-17 rating.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']See the thing is your bothered by the real images, replsed in fact it sounds.

But in playing the game you're doing hideous things to game versions of people, that's where the greater potential for desensitization comes in.

Not to mention brain imaging studies have shown that playing violent games activates the parts of the brain associated with aggression more than watching a violent movie does for just this reason. It's interactive, movies are more passive.[/quote]

So your saying that because you push a button and push a shiv into someones neck in a game, that means you would have no problems doing it to someone in real life because the game desensitizes you to it? That's a bit of a generalization to make. Most people who follow that pattern have something that is mentally wrong with them to not be able to look at something like that and not realize where the game ends and reality begins. Ultimately there's no proof for any claim that watchdog groups make about violence, and it comes down to people wanting to point the finger at someone else. In socoiology, they call it diffusion of blame. Meaning that "It's not my fault Jimmy killed the neighbor, its' cause he played that game". Nowadays everyone want's to think these things aren't there fault or their responsibilty which is just stupid and wrong.
 
[quote name='robin2099']So your saying that because you push a button and push a shiv into someones neck in a game, that means you would have no problems doing it to someone in real life because the game desensitizes you to it? That's a bit of a generalization to make.[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying seeing it in a movie bothers me a bit, but in a game doing something like that the way it is depicted in Manhunt is too much and I can't stomach it.

And also I'm saying that I have not doubts that violent media, both movies and games, desensitize people to violence. They don't CAUSE violence by themselves, but they can be one piece of a complex puzzle that leads someone to do awful things to other human beings. And with that said, with games being interactive they are probably a little more effective at desensitizing one to violence than movies which are more passive. And the research showing more activation in the parts of the brain tied to aggression with violent games vs. violent movies gives me some more reason to think this. Also, there's a reason why the military uses video game simulators and not movies to help train soldiers to have no hesitation shooting others.

But again, it's not a causal factor by itself, and that's not what I'm trying to say. Just that they clearly can have a negative impact for SOME people, and can be ONE PIECE of a complicated chain of factors that pushes SOME people over the edge.

So I don't think such games should be banned etc., just that gamers shouldn't be so ignorant to the fact that such games CAN and probably do have SOME negative effects on SOME people.

But there is a market for such games, even stuff as twisted and repulsive to me as Manhunt. And while it disturbs me that people could have no problems with such demented games, I can still say "to each his own" and just steer clear of such repugnant content myself.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'm not saying that at all. I'm just saying seeing it in a movie bothers me a bit, but in a game doing something like that the way it is depicted in Manhunt is too much and I can't stomach it.

And also I'm saying that I have not doubts that violent media, both movies and games, desensitize people to violence. They don't CAUSE violence by themselves, but they can be one piece of a complex puzzle that leads someone to do awful things to other human beings. And with that said, with games being interactive they are probably a little more effective at desensitizing one to violence than movies which are more passive. And the research showing more activation in the parts of the brain tied to aggression with violent games vs. violent movies gives me some more reason to think this. Also, there's a reason why the military uses video game simulators and not movies to help train soldiers to have no hesitation shooting others.

But again, it's not a causal factor by itself, and that's not what I'm trying to say. Just that they clearly can have a negative impact for SOME people, and can be ONE PIECE of a complicated chain of factors that pushes SOME people over the edge.

So I don't think such games should be banned etc., just that gamers shouldn't be so ignorant to the fact that such games CAN and probably do have SOME negative effects on SOME people.

But there is a market for such games, even stuff as twisted and repulsive to me as Manhunt. And while it disturbs me that people could have no problems with such demented games, I can still say "to each his own" and just steer clear of such repugnant content myself.[/quote]

The original manhunt was all about atmosphere and the snuff film environment which was hard to stomach the first time I played it. Now though the games looks really dated after seeing HD graphics. Try playing it now and the death scenes look passable.

With the snuff film aspect of the first game gone, all you're left with is a gorey version of something like Splinter Cell. The play impressions IGN left us with basically spelt out the game as hyperviolent but not really as dirty a experience as the first one.

The lack of a snuff film element completely changed things.
 
I could see that, and I don't want to argue the point, as again--to each their own.

I can't stomach games with that level of violence, period. But I won't begrudge them to adults who enjoy them.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I could see that, and I don't want to argue the point, as again--to each their own.

I can't stomach games with that level of violence, period. But I won't begrudge them to adults who enjoy them.[/quote]
It wasn't really the level of violence that made the game tough to get through. It was how the violence is approached. I mean whenever you executed a stealth kill, you'd have the director laughing about how he was 'getting off' on your actions. Play the game with the sound turned off and it's not really all that bad. Play it with the sound on and everything changes.

Also the executions go out the window about halfway into the game because everyone shows up with an uzi to blow you away and it becomes an action game. You'll never get close to executing anyone again (other than once in a while), essentially with the same amount of violence as Gears of War or Resident Evil 4.

I think that this sets a very bad precident where Gears of War 2 or Resident Evil 5 might have to tone down their violence or risk an AO rating, especially for mature games that are going to be released on the Wii with motion controls. The motion controls have added a whole new element of expectations for ratings and judgments and if we want to continue to be served mature titles, this is something that we will have to think of for a long, long time.
 
With all this buzz about the Wii to have the first ever AO rating game, do you guys think this will help or hurt the console? The Wii is a "family" console, what do you think parents will think, if anything..?
 
I agree on the atmosphere, but I do think that even in Manhunt to the approach to the violence is much worse than that in Gears of War etc (especially since aside from multiplayer you're kliling insect, alien things).

I don't mind any precedent with AO ratings, they just need to change the ratings and have like an AOV rating for violent games and an AOS rating for sex games or something. Or maybe must 18+ for games like this, and AO for porn games?

Stores would probably carry the AOV/18+ games. AO games are shunned now, as when people here AO, NC-17, X-rated, etc. they think porn, and this country has the backwards standards of sex being awful but violence being A-OK so stores don't care stuff with those ratings.
 
[quote name='Kirra']With all this buzz about the Wii to have the first ever AO rating game, do you guys think this will help or hurt the console? The Wii is a "family" console, what do you think parents will think, if anything..?[/QUOTE]

Most parents will never even read the news, so it will have little if any effect.
 
See man, the more I think about it, the clearer the picture becomes. The ESRB made an example out of Manhunt 2.

Politicians were starting to rear their heads into the game and so the ESRB stepped up and just gave the game an AO to prove how responsible they were. It was a political move to show their own worth rather than something done for the gamers out there.

I think that's really all there is to it.

And I just got off the phone with Nintendo. Their systems haven't been updated with the AO rating yet and the game has no release date on their computers other than the fact it says July, August, or September.
 
I do agree to some extent that they are making an example of the game. But at the same time I don't feel it's unwarranted.

To me the game is clearly much "worse" than say Halo, and I have problems with it having the same rating.

But it's just a flaw of ratings schemes in general, and a movie like Hostel is much worse than say Schindler's List due to the nature/purpose of violence in the films, yet both get R ratings.
 
Ok, so now that this is rated AO, am I going to have to order it online? Nobody is going to carry it. Except for Suncoast, but I don't have one of those anymore.
 
I've actually thought about this and what will probably end up happening is that in a few of the PAL countries where the game doesn't get rated as harshly, they'll release the game as is and that version of the game with become the most coveted one.

1800.255.3700 - Nintendo

Choose the last option on the line and then press 0 to get the customer service representative. Respectfully voice your opinion in hopes of getting Nintendo to support and carry Manhunt 2 even with the AO rating.
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']I've actually thought about this and what will probably end up happening is that in a few of the PAL countries where the game doesn't get rated as harshly, they'll release the game as is and that version of the game with become the most coveted one.
[/quote]Interesting discussion point. If the policy of Nintendo (and by extension, Microsoft and Sony) is to not release AO games, what happens if a game is not rated similarly in other territories? If, say, Australia rates it the equivalent of an M game, Nintendo has no objection to its release. But the same game is then restricted from being released in the US?
 
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