Mods lock please or move to Vs board

[hiccupleftovers]

[quote name='jmcc']Ok, then do you also concede they have the resources and know-how to fight a much "quieter" war with Palestine?[/quote]

Well, you still haven't answered my question in a straight manner, but that's beside the point.

Please tell me of a war that has been "quiet"? War involves bullets and bombs. There are times when war can be waged quietly, but when they outright go and murder soldiers and then abduct them I cannot see any true way of running a quiet war. You must go after them and you must stop them. You cannot allow them to run amuck and believe that they can shell homes, explode and murder civilians, etc. I rather doubt that they themselves are looking to fight a "quiet" war as you say. These are terrorists and they want to masquerade around and have you believe that blowing themselves to cause as much damage as possible is politically motivated or some type of a message, but it isn't. It's death. It's destruction. It's mayhem. You don't bow down to these people. They will not bow down to you. They will not show you humility nor kindness. For all I know, they could have already tortured and murdered those they abducted and/or killed them or beheaded them. Note, they have done this to our own troops in Iraq.

 

[hiccupleftovers]

[quote name='MadChedar0']I don't think my 1 and 2 liners count as rants, but everyone is entitled to his opinion.

I'm not trying to belittle you or anyone else on this subject, but one must form an opinion on this matter by reading books and multiple news sources. I'm just presuming, but I think you & many people (both sides) make the mistake of forming an opinion from one source.[/quote]
1/2 liners don't count as anything in my book. You like to make yourself feel smart and actually believe it, then go ahead, but note that I don't take 90% of what you say serious, nor do I believe you have any accountability on this issue and plenty of others.

Perhaps you should be the one and take some PolySci courses, or at the very least research more than what you have heard through CNN and Fox News, etc.

You and jmcc seem to try to marginalize the issue as though the Israeli's are butchers and the Palestinians are somehow just and/or right. All I can say is that it is just outrageous.

You and jmcc are defending murderers. Killers.

Civilian deaths are never what is wanted, but in war they are unavoidable. To say that Israel makes it their goal to kill civilians is simply ludicrous and yet to defend suicide bombers, rocketers, beheaders, etc as somehow noble. The hypocrysy simply seaps forth.

And damn it, I said i wouldn't get into this and yet I have. I'm going back to my poker game.

 

[flowery]

I better get this in quick....Matisyahu is one cool ing Hasidic Jewish reggae rapper.

Also I don't care what anybody says Natalie is hot. Again though I am not Jewish (as mentioned I am cut though) I would the hell out of her like everyone else for numerous reasons.

 

[hiccupleftovers]

[quote name='jmcc']Ok, then do you also concede they have the resources and know-how to fight a much "quieter" war with Palestine?

edit: I don't care if they want to beat down Palestine in order to be recognised as a state. I do care that they have the option of behaving in a much more clandestine manner than they do, but they choose to instead attack massively and in the open. That tactic does not work against any terrorist forces. It's been proven since forever that it only makes the situation worse by driving moderates over to the fanatic's side.[/quote]

Last post, I swear as now the g/f is annoyed.

The tactic can be upto debate in regards to its effectiveness and whether or not it should be used, so I will grant you that. The tactic is also upto debate in how good of a deterent it truly is both for the short and long term. But as I mentioned in previous post, the only true long term solution is through diplomacy and both sides being willing to come to the middle and have talks, etc.

 

[hiccupleftovers]

[quote name='flowery']I better get this in quick....Matisyahu is one cool ing Hasidic Jewish reggae rapper.

Also I don't care what anybody says Natalie is hot. Again though I am not Jewish (as mentioned I am cut though) I would the hell out of her like everyone else for numerous reasons.[/quote]
But I concur

 

[jPoD]

[quote name='hiccupleftovers']Damn, mods must be slackin' off. This still hasn't been moved or locked yet.

Anyway, I'm with Fire and jPoD on this one. Israel has attempted to procure peace at least. They have given land, helped with humanitarian needs (do you really think that they have the money to build the infrastructure they need), Israel has provided power and water for years (up until recently). Israel has left posts, given back prisoners, etc.

And let's see, Hizbollah coming to the border staging war, killing and kidnappinng prisoners not terrorism? How about Hamas coming and killing two and abducting one? If memory serves me correct that how the violence and tension escalated this time around. Everytime there seems to be a little bit of quiet, Syria, Lebanon, Palestinians, someone has to rile something up. If Canada just up and started to bomb us from their border, would you just have America stand by and watch?

The UN Security Council has backed and passed plenty of resolutions calling for the disarmament and disbanding of these groups. The Lebonese Government and Palestinians need to take responsibility for the actions of groups within their borders. Hizbollah acts as a state within a state and doesn't even care what the Lebonese government says/sanctions/anything.

And on the matter of humanitarian crisis, what about the soldiers abducted? They have been claimed as Prisoners of War, yet Hamas will not let the Red Cross in to check on them?

And don't you find it interesting just at what time these soldiers were abducted? Right when Israel is in a transitionary time from Sharon to Olmert. This is clearly a test of Olmert's resolve.

Israel is dealing with an enemy who is unrelenting, who does not know what humility is. All they want is the destruction of the Jewish state and all Jews. That's what their religion and Allah supposedly want (not all, just these radicals and those that support them).

As has been said, Israel has the right to defend themselves.

You need to do just as you recommend to others, go read a book and study the matter and turn off CNN/Fox News and perhaps less of these internet discussions.[/QUOTE]

Glad someone else agrees with me. Thanks bro.

 

[jmcc]

[quote name='hiccupleftovers']Well, you still haven't answered my question in a straight manner, but that's beside the point.

Please tell me of a war that has been "quiet"? War involves bullets and bombs. There are times when war can be waged quietly, but when they outright go and murder soldiers and then abduct them I cannot see any true way of running a quiet war. You must go after them and you must stop them. You cannot allow them to run amuck and believe that they can shell homes, explode and murder civilians, etc. I rather doubt that they themselves are looking to fight a "quiet" war as you say. These are terrorists and they want to masquerade around and have you believe that blowing themselves to cause as much damage as possible is politically motivated or some type of a message, but it isn't. It's death. It's destruction. It's mayhem. You don't bow down to these people. They will not bow down to you. They will not show you humility nor kindness. For all I know, they could have already tortured and murdered those they abducted and/or killed them or beheaded them. Note, they have done this to our own troops in Iraq.[/QUOTE]By a quiet war, I mean infiltrate and undermine the terrorist organizations and assassinate where it serves a purpose. Israel knows how to do it, but they choose to roll tanks and air strikes.

 

[hiccupleftovers]

[quote name='jmcc']By a quiet war, I mean infiltrate and undermine the terrorist organizations and assassinate where it serves a purpose. Israel knows how to do it, but they choose to roll tanks and air strikes.[/quote]

Last post I swear

Do you think that assassinating truly works all the time? These orginizations are set up so that as soon as one part goes down, someone is there to take their place, and that has been proven time again. Israel sending in tanks and air strikes is much more to strike directly at the heart of orginizations as much as you would to a terrorist/extremist regime, etc. They are trying to cripple their resources, etc as much as it is to take out members of these organizations. If you've kept up on what they have bombed, then they have bombed many storehouses of weapons, bunkers, etc. Years past they intercepted a boat full of armaments and weapons.

But the question isn't to the efficacy of this tactic in itself, but whether it has any long lasting or damaging effects on the mindset of the population so much so that it would stir it up again and continue the tension and violence. There is debate to both sides of this question.

 

[jmcc]

[quote name='hiccupleftovers']Last post I swear

Do you think that assassinating truly works all the time? These orginizations are set up so that as soon as one part goes down, someone is there to take their place, and that has been proven time again. Israel sending in tanks and air strikes is much more to strike directly at the heart of orginizations as much as you would to a terrorist/extremist regime, etc. They are trying to cripple their resources, etc as much as it is to take out members of these organizations. If you've kept up on what they have bombed, then they have bombed many storehouses of weapons, bunkers, etc. Years past they intercepted a boat full of armaments and weapons.[/QUOTE]A well orchestrated campaign of continuous assassinations? Yeah, I do think they work, if not all the time, then most. Tell me if I'm being illogical: An organization where the missions get intercepted and the leader is constantly being "disappeared" is one that won't grow. An organization where the leader is killed occassionally, with civilians getting killed by a known enemy will grow very well.

 

[PKRipp3r]

Following is a list of prominent foreign individuals whose assassination (or planning for same) the United States has been involved in since the end of the Second World War. The list does not include several assassinations in various parts of the world carried out by anti-Castro Cubans employed by the CIA and headquartered in the United States.

1949 - Kim Koo, Korean opposition leader

1950s - CIA/Neo-Nazi hit list of more than 200 political figures in West Germany
to be "put out of the way" in the event of a Soviet invasion

1950s - Chou En-lai, Prime minister of China, several attempts on his life

1950s, 1962 - Sukarno, President of Indonesia

1951 - Kim Il Sung, Premier of North Korea

1953 - Mohammed Mossadegh, Prime Minister of Iran

1950s (mid) - Claro M. Recto, Philippines opposition leader

1955 - Jawaharlal Nehru, Prime Minister of India

1957 - Gamal Abdul Nasser, President of Egypt

1959, 1963, 1969 - Norodom Sihanouk, leader of Cambodia

1960 - Brig. Gen. Abdul Karim Kassem, leader of Iraq

1950s-70s - José Figueres, President of Costa Rica, two attempts on his life

1961 - Francois "Papa Doc" Duvalier, leader of Haiti

1961 - Patrice Lumumba, Prime Minister of the Congo (Zaire)

1961 - Gen. Rafael Trujillo, leader of Dominican Republic

1963 - Ngo Dinh Diem, President of South Vietnam

1960s-70s - Fidel Castro, President of Cuba, many attempts on his life

1960s - Raúl Castro, high official in government of Cuba

1965 - Francisco Caamaño, Dominican Republic opposition leader

1965-6 - Charles de Gaulle, President of France

1967 - Che Guevara, Cuban leader

1970 - Salvador Allende, President of Chile

1970 - Gen. Rene Schneider, Commander-in-Chief of Army, Chile

1970s, 1981 - General Omar Torrijos, leader of Panama

1972 - General Manuel Noriega, Chief of Panama Intelligence

1975 - Mobutu Sese Seko, President of Zaire

1976 - Michael Manley, Prime Minister of Jamaica

1980-1986 - Muammar Qaddafi, leader of Libya, several plots and attempts upon his life

1982 - Ayatollah Khomeini, leader of Iran

1983 - Gen. Ahmed Dlimi, Moroccan Army commander

1983 - Miguel d'Escoto, Foreign Minister of Nicaragua

1984 - The nine comandantes of the Sandinista National Directorate

1985 - Sheikh Mohammed Hussein Fadlallah, Lebanese Shiite leader (80 people killed in the attempt)

1991 - Saddam Hussein, leader of Iraq

1993 - Mohamed Farah Aideed, prominent clan leader of Somalia

1998, 2001-2 - Osama bin Laden, leading Islamic militant

1999 - Slobodan Milosevic, President of Yugoslavia

2002 - Gulbuddin Hekmatyar, Afghan Islamic leader and warlord

2003 - Saddam Hussein and his two sons

* Washington Post, June 27, 1993