MODS PLEASE LOCK - MLB 2007 Season Thread

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Crap. Go figure the Yankees being the only team that didn't lose 3-0. Oh well, hopefully the Indians turn up the heat Monday night on Wang (again).
 
I'm pulling for the Yanks, mostly because they're the only team that could take down the Red Sox, who I hope get demolished.
 
[quote name='ph33r m3']I'm pulling for the Yanks, mostly because they're the only team that could take down the Red Sox, who I hope get demolished.[/QUOTE]
The Indians would stand a better chance against the Sox, the Yankees have no pitching.

I'm pulling for a 5 game series so that whoever wins will be depleted and spent with little rest.
 
[quote name='evanft']Losing the season series does not make one a worse team. It merely means you lost those particular games. The Cleveland Indians have smacked the Yankees around this series because they have a much fuller, more well-rounded team with a foundation built on the 2-headed monster of Carmona and Sabathia. The Yankees have relatively weak pitching outside of Joba Chamberlain and Mariano Rivera. The Indians have speed and adaptable hitting, while the Yankees are basically geared for overwhelming offense.

Cleveland has the pitching and other basic tools necessary to win in October. The Yankees don't. Furthermore, even if the Yankees were somehow able to come back and face Boston, they would likely be taken by the cleaners by Boston's fantastic pitching staff, so it would end up being a boring, predictable series.[/quote]

I really don't agree with any of this - if you lose every single game you play against a team during a season I don't think it is a stretch to say that the winner is a better team. Are you saying the Indians weren't trying to win those games? They were in the heat of a tight division race at that time so it's safe to say they were trying their best.

Also, I don't think their pitching staff is that much better than the Yankees. Wang was every bit as good as Sabathia down the stretch and Pettitte pitched just as well as Carmona did in Game 2. If not for those bugs the Yankees might be looking to close out the series tonight instead of trying to tie it.
 
[quote name='2Fast']Exactly.[/quote]
Which is annoying... because why do people want to see the same teams constantly?

Yeah, I'm a Diamondbacks fan... but if the Rockies beat us, I'm not going slit my wrists. I'd be happy for them getting so far.
 
[quote name='yukine']Which is annoying... because why do people want to see the same teams constantly?

Yeah, I'm a Diamondbacks fan... but if the Rockies beat us, I'm not going slit my wrists. I'd be happy for them getting so far.[/quote]
Because they're out for blood.

Yeah, a team of nobodies ends up with the best record in the NL? fuck yeah they've done enough that anymore is just icing on the cake.

Javeryh, the regular season doesn't mean jack anymore in the playoffs. What they've done before means nothing now. If Pettitte and Wang were as good or better than Sabathia and Carmona, then the Indians wouldn't have gone up 2-0. The Yankees are lucky that Westbrook's a 50/50 pitcher in terms of being good or bad.
 
[quote name='javeryh'] If not for those bugs the Yankees might be looking to close out the series tonight instead of trying to tie it.[/QUOTE]

So, it has absolutely nothing to do with a rookie with no playoff experience throwing a bad ball...or Posada airmailing a third strike to first. It's all about the bugs?

OK George.

Let's look at the Indians v Yankees position by position:

C Martinez v Posada
Regular Season - .301/.374/.505/25/114 - 32% CSB v .338/.426/.543/20/90 - 24% CSB
Postseason - .333/.429/.667/1/2 v .100/.250/.100/0/0
Advantage (postseason) - Martinez

1B Garko v Yankees 1B
Regular Season - .289/.359/.483/21/61 - .993FP v .253/.350/.453/26/80
Postseason - .364/.500/.636/1/3 v 2 hits, 1 run, No HR, No RBI
Advantage - Garko

2B Cabrera v Cano
Regular Season - .283/.354/.421/3/22 - .995FP (45GP) v .306/.353/.488/19/97 - .984FP
Postseason - .154/.214/.385/1/1 v .273/.333/.676/1/2
Advantage - Cano

SS Peralta v Jeter
Regular Season - .270/.341/.430/21/72 - .974FP v .322/.388/.452/12/73 - .970FP
Postseason - .364/.500/.636/0/1 v .083/.083/.083/0/0
Advantage - Peralta

3B Blake v Rodriguez
Regular Season - .270/.339/.437/18/78 - .962FP v .314/.422/.645/54/156 - .965FP
Postseason - .083/.083/.167/0/2 v .200/.333/.200/0/0
Advantage - Rodriguez

I'll have to do the OF positions later, because both teams have used a few. I think it will trend 2-1 Yankees in that regard, though. Overall, Cleveland is hitting RS .268/.343/.428/178/784 to .290/.366/.463/201/929, PS .302/.408/.538/5/17 to .194/.275/.337/4/10. As we can see, the RS doesn't matter too much if you can't do it PS.

Team Pitching - Regular Season
Cleveland - 4.05 ERA, 1462.2IP, 1519H, 704R, 658ER
New York - 4.49 ERA, 1450.2IP, 1498H, 777R, 724ER

Postseason
Cleveland - 3.21ERA, 28IP, 19H, 12R, 10ER
New York - 5.86ERA, 27.2IP, 32H, 18ER

Still think New York has the best team? By my crude observations, each team has four better players, but Cleveland has the superior pitching.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']Let's look at the Indians v Yankees position by position:[/quote]

You seriously believe that Posada is not better than Martinez and Jeter is not better than Peralta? Seriously? That's just crazy. If I was starting an all-time playoff team Jeter would be one of my first picks. You can't base anything on the 2007 postseason statistics - they've played 3 games. There is no question whatsoever that the Yankees offense is far and away better than the Indians.

As for the pitching, the Indians have a better 1-2 at the top of the order (although I still think Wang is almost as good as either of them when he's getting his ground balls) but the rest of the pitching staff - especially the bullpen - has to go in the Yankees favor. Granted, Farnsworth sucks but that's about it. Hughes pitched great last night and they still have Mussina fully rested - not to mention the greatest closer of all time. Who else do the Indians have that poses a threat? Barring something unexpected, Byrd is going to get hammered tonight. He doesn't strike anyone out so the Yankees will be putting the ball in play which isn't going to be good news for the Indians. I'm not even a Yankees fan but to say that Cleveland is clearly the better team seems crazy to me.
 
[quote name='javeryh']You seriously believe that Posada is not better than Martinez and Jeter is not better than Peralta? Seriously? That's just crazy. If I was starting an all-time playoff team Jeter would be one of my first picks. You can't base anything on the 2007 postseason statistics - they've played 3 games. There is no question whatsoever that the Yankees offense is far and away better than the Indians.[/QUOTE]
Victor Martinez is better than Posada, but the rest of your point stands. Yankees by far have the better offense, Indians have better pitching. Hope to see the Yankees get into the ALCS, Sabathia and Carmona scare me more than the Yankees offense does.
 
Uh why are we even trying to compare Yankee and Indians offensive numbers? There shouldn't even be a discussion. They led the league in batting average, runs, hits, RBI's, slugging, and came 4th in home runs. Cleveland isn't even in the top 5 in any of those categories and aren't even in the top 10 in most of those categories. Pitching wise Cleveland has a better 1 and 2 but not by much. And I forgot which person posted how the Yankees have a one man offense. This is not the Giants of a few years ago. Just because A-Rod is having the season of his life doesn't mean the other hitters aren't producing. Matsui and Abreu have 100+ RBI's while Cano and Posada are around the 90 mark. The fact that they batted .290 as a team is insane.

The thing about sports is there is always a "What have you done for me lately" mentality so people only like to point out the past X amount of games in determining how great a team is. Why you would discount stats over the course of an entire 162 game season doesn't make sense. As if a 5 game series gives a better indication?
 
[quote name='javeryh']I can't believe people here are rooting against the Yankees. Do you not want to see Yankees/Sox in the ALCS? Are you not a baseball fan? I don't get it. Cleveland has a nice team and mabe they deserve to win as much as anyone else but for pure entertainment value in all of sports NOTHING beats Yankees/Sox. I'm not even a fan of either team but this is the matchup I want to see. If it doesn't happen I probably won't make a point to watch the games unless they are on and I'm home. I'd plan my day around Yankees/Sox though.[/QUOTE]


i will never root for the skanks. I hate them as much as i hate the braves/phillies. I like good baseball...but as a Met fan. Its so bittersweet to see them knocked out. I dont want them to go on and win the WS and have to hear it all over again. Thats the NY Fan mentallity in me. Screw the yankees..as long as they dont win ill be happy.

To be unbiased. Yeah Yankee and Sox would be a sweet series. revenge for 2004..or another choke artists showing? we have to wait and see.
 
[quote name='Kendro']Uh why are we even trying to compare Yankee and Indians offensive numbers? There shouldn't even be a discussion. They led the league in batting average, runs, hits, RBI's, slugging, and came 4th in home runs. Cleveland isn't even in the top 5 in any of those categories and aren't even in the top 10 in most of those categories. Pitching wise Cleveland has a better 1 and 2 but not by much. And I forgot which person posted how the Yankees have a one man offense. This is not the Giants of a few years ago. Just because A-Rod is having the season of his life doesn't mean the other hitters aren't producing. Matsui and Abreu have 100+ RBI's while Cano and Posada are around the 90 mark. The fact that they batted .290 as a team is insane.[/quote]
What I meant was that they get a lot of their runs from just one big hit instead of being able to string htis together into runs like the Indians can.

You act like the Yankees' offense is somehow a surprise. They've paid an enormous amount of money for those runs. How much success has that gotten them lately? Six years of zilch and a threat to fire Torre if he loses the series.

[quote name='Kendro']The thing about sports is there is always a "What have you done for me lately" mentality so people only like to point out the past X amount of games in determining how great a team is. Why you would discount stats over the course of an entire 162 game season doesn't make sense. As if a 5 game series gives a better indication?[/quote]
How many #1 seeds have won the World Series since 2001? How many wildcards? Answer: 3 to 1 in favor of the wildcards. So much for the regular season being so important to postseason success.
 
[quote name='javeryh']You seriously believe that Posada is not better than Martinez and Jeter is not better than Peralta? Seriously? That's just crazy. If I was starting an all-time playoff team Jeter would be one of my first picks. You can't base anything on the 2007 postseason statistics - they've played 3 games. There is no question whatsoever that the Yankees offense is far and away better than the Indians.

As for the pitching, the Indians have a better 1-2 at the top of the order (although I still think Wang is almost as good as either of them when he's getting his ground balls) but the rest of the pitching staff - especially the bullpen - has to go in the Yankees favor. Granted, Farnsworth sucks but that's about it. Hughes pitched great last night and they still have Mussina fully rested - not to mention the greatest closer of all time. Who else do the Indians have that poses a threat? Barring something unexpected, Byrd is going to get hammered tonight. He doesn't strike anyone out so the Yankees will be putting the ball in play which isn't going to be good news for the Indians. I'm not even a Yankees fan but to say that Cleveland is clearly the better team seems crazy to me.[/QUOTE]

It's just my point: the Yankees may have better production in the regular season, but what is it doing for them now? What do regular season stats matter in the playoffs? Absolutely nothing.

When looking at who I gave the advantage to, that's postseason stuff (and I even stated that). The Indians have four positions where they are better than the Yankees, and the Yanks have the same number. If you still like regular season numbers, Cleveland's pitching staff was Top 5 in ERA, CG, SV, IP, R, ER, HR, BB (1st) and WHIP. The numbers are right there.

If you compare Pettite to Sabathia and Wong to Carmona, you get the Indians 1-2 winning across the board in stats (except for HR). If you compare #3 pitchers (in terms of IP - Byrd v Mussina), Byrd wins in ERA, W, CG, SHO, IP, and BB (with Mussina leading in H, R, ER & HR). If you compare #4s (Westbrook and Clemens), it may look like Clemens has the upper hand in most statistics, but he also pitched a 1/3 full less innings. The only spot where New York clearly has an advantage in regular season stats is the #5 pitcher, and we wouldn't see either one in this series.

As for the bullpen, Rivera does have better numbers in the regular season, but Borowski had more saves and save opportunities. If you look at setup men, the answer is undoubtably Betancourt over Farnsworth. Rafael pitched more innings and lower numbers in EVERY statistical category than Kyle. It wasn't even close, as evidenced by the ERA: 1.47 to 4.80. You could insert Chamberlain in there for better numbers, but he only pitched 19 innings and is a rookie. If gnats are going to bother him (as you yourself alluded to), then can you trust him with a big-time game on the line? We don't know, because he hasn't been in that situation.

Coming into the series, if you had told anyone that you liked New York's pitching staff over Cleveland, you would have been committed.

So, we wipe the slate clean and look at what's happened over three games: Cleveland's pitching has by and large shut down the Yankees bats (last statistically for teams still alive), and the pitching has been lit up worse than in the regular season (again, last for teams still alive). There's only one thing that has carried over statistically - the Indians pitching.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Victor Martinez is better than Posada, but the rest of your point stands. Yankees by far have the better offense, Indians have better pitching. Hope to see the Yankees get into the ALCS, Sabathia and Carmona scare me more than the Yankees offense does.[/quote]

If Yanks/Indians series goes 5 games, the Red Sox easily have the best odds in a 7 game series, as they'd throw Beckett and Schilling (I think Dice K should be the #3) each twice in the series. The Indians and Yanks would be at a disadvantage in that measure.

If it goes 5 games and the Indians win, Carmona goes on Friday and Sabathia most likely wouldn't pitch until game until either game 3 or 4 depending on rest. Clemens would most likely get the nod for the Yanks to open the series. I am more afraid of Clemens, regardless of injury, as he's been there before and know what is expected.

With all that said, I think the Red Sox vs Indians would be the better series, but thats just my 2 cents. Heres to hoping for a game 5.
 
Any thoughts on how the game in New York is going to turn out tonight? Obviously I'm hoping that it ends tonight, but part of me wonders if we're gonna have to bring it back home to try to finish it off. It would be pretty typical Cleveland sports Philosophy. Get yourself backed into the corner and try to fight to survive.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']The Indians would stand a better chance against the Sox, the Yankees have no pitching.

I'm pulling for a 5 game series so that whoever wins will be depleted and spent with little rest.[/quote]

which is why we raped you up the butthole throughout the season
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Victor Martinez is better than Posada[/quote]

that is the most ridiculus statement i have ever heard. and its not like the yankees have NO pitching, if pettite and wang pitch the way they should, we will be fine.
 
[quote name='omgu8myrice']that is the most ridiculus statement i have ever heard. and its not like the yankees have NO pitching, if pettite and wang pitch the way they should, we will be fine.[/QUOTE]

The stats say otherwise. Martinez hits for better power, and is better defensively.
 
[quote name='Dead of Knight']Are the Yankees bad enough dudes to score 3+ points in one inning?

I'm guessing no. :lol:[/quote]With the Indians, never count-out their ability to allow their opponents to score. ;)
 
[quote name='daroga']With the Indians, never count-out their ability to allow their opponents to score. ;)[/quote]
Borowski's the exciting end that nobody really wants. :lol: I remember hearing that he's the only closer in history to get 40+ saves in a season while having an ERA over 5. Not efficient, but effective.

INDIANS WIN!!!!

Obviously that means the Yankees were still better. ;) Goodbye Joe Torre. The years of speculation of his firing will hopefully end soon.
 
[quote name='FriskyTanuki']INDIANS WIN!!!!

Obviously that means the Yankees were still better. ;)[/quote]Well, duh. They won all the regular season games. Because baseball is static and has nothing to do with streaks, momentum, and who's hot.
 
*sigh* Time to start hating the glad-handing woe-is-us-the-best-baseball-team-ever Red Sox.

;)

EDIT: So where's Torre gonna go? He's too good for some team to not want to overspend for his expertise.
 
Beckett is 1-1, with a 1.80 ERA and a .143 BAA vs the Indians. 1 complete game. Schilling is 1-0 with a 1.29 ERA.

Sabathia is 0-1 with a 1.29 ERA vs Boston, Carmona is 1-0 with a 0 ERA.

Great pitching matchup for the first two games.
 
[quote name='daroga']Well, duh. They won all the regular season games. Because baseball is static and has nothing to do with streaks, momentum, and who's hot.[/quote]

because the cards were the best team last year, right?
 
Indians!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

The winner of the Red Sox- Indians game will win the world series. The American league is too tough.
 
[quote name='omgu8myrice']because the cards were the best team last year, right?[/QUOTE]

Actually...they WERE...right place at the right time...they have the rings and trophy to prove it. Don't diss teams if you are a Yankees fan and only think that Cash=Wins.
 
I was really disappointed when the Mets didn't make the Playoffs and I thought I would no longer be interested in the Playoffs if the Yankees got eliminated but I'm actually really excited about this upcoming ALDS. It'll be a gloomy day tomorrow in the city (ironically it is supposed to rain as well). :cry:
 
[quote name='jousley']Actually...they WERE...right place at the right time...they have the rings and trophy to prove it. Don't diss teams if you are a Yankees fan and only think that Cash=Wins.[/QUOTE]
And the Cardinals with their 90+ million dollar payroll, top 10 in the league... Poor, poor them.

The Rockies and Dbags deserve credit for getting it done with their ~50 mil payrolls, though its entirely possible to build a good team on short cash, its just impossible to maintain.
 
You know I used to root for the Red Sox because we (Cubbies) shared a similar plight. Ever since they won their WS their fans have become almost as annoying as the Yankees.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']And the Cardinals with their 90+ million dollar payroll, top 10 in the league... Poor, poor them..[/QUOTE]

You are right..with that kind of cash, the Cards could have bought two Dice-Ks... ;)
 
[quote name='jousley']You are right..with that kind of cash, the Cards could have bought two Dice-Ks... ;)[/QUOTE]
They don't have to compete with the Yankees in their division, or even their league, the closest they have to deal with are the Mets and Dodgers who are always mismanaged.

The Sox had to pony up or risk losing him to the Yankees, thats what makes their situation different from the average team. They're making a lot of that money back from the Japanese anyway.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']They don't have to compete with the Yankees in their division, or even their league, the closest they have to deal with are the Mets and Dodgers who are always mismanaged.

The Sox had to pony up or risk losing him to the Yankees, thats what makes their situation different from the average team. They're making a lot of that money back from the Japanese anyway.[/QUOTE]

Also helps Boston that they have a huge fan base in the New England area...plus all the money they make from all the folks jumping on the bandwagon since they won the series.

The Cardinals won it fair and square against a vastly favored team..give them credit at least. It wasn't like it was a fluke..they were IN the world series that your Sox won, two years before that.
 
[quote name='jousley']Also helps Boston that they have a huge fan base in the New England area...plus all the money they make from all the folks jumping on the bandwagon since they won the series.

The Cardinals won it fair and square against a vastly favored team..give them credit at least. It wasn't like it was a fluke..they were IN the world series that your Sox won, two years before that.[/QUOTE]
The Cards absolutely deserve credit, I wouldn't take anything away from what they've done. A WS appearance and a win within 3 years is a great run. But they're in no position to say 'poor me', they're not a small market team with no cash.

The Sox ownership is very shrewd, they're great at finding ways to make more money, even though they're severely constricted by the size of their park. A lot of other teams don't put the effort in that they do, and many of the teams in the bottom half of payroll simply refuse to spend any money, and pocket the revenue sharing cash as a profit. They could put a legit team on the field if they wanted to.
 
I'd like to see the Red Sox financial data, because I'm not really convinced they're going to make all that money back.

So, if you know how to find it if it's publicly available, lemme know.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']And the Cardinals with their 90+ million dollar payroll, top 10 in the league... Poor, poor them.

The Rockies and Dbags deserve credit for getting it done with their ~50 mil payrolls, though its entirely possible to build a good team on short cash, its just impossible to maintain.[/quote]The Diamondbacks should get credit for having some of the lowest stats in the league, yet are still winning games.

And Dbags? Come on, I know people from Boston are supposed to be morons but you don't have to live up to the stereotype.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I'd like to see the Red Sox financial data, because I'm not really convinced they're going to make all that money back.

So, if you know how to find it if it's publicly available, lemme know.[/QUOTE]
The Sox make money. They own 80% of the network that carries their games (NESN), which draws the highest ratings of any team in Baseball. They own Fenway Sports Group, which handles advertising at other events (which is now very profitable), and they own half of Roush Racing. These are people that know how to make a buck. They're a private company, so they don't disclose their financial data.

The value of the team went from $339 million in 2001 to $724 million this year, if that says anything. Here's what Forbes has on them:
http://www.forbes.com/lists/2007/33/07mlb_Boston-Red-Sox_330700.html
[quote name='yukine']And Dbags? Come on, I know people from Boston are supposed to be morons but you don't have to live up to the stereotype.[/QUOTE]
I know people from the West are sensitive, but you don't have to live up to the stereotype. Its all in good fun when it comes to sports.


Another thing the Sox have done extremely well is their minor league system. Its amazing how many players they've developed over the last few years, and this is something not exclusive to big money teams, though it does help to set a little cash aside for Boras clients. Kevin Youkilis, Dustin Pedroia, Jonathan Papelbon, Jon Lester, Manny Delcarmen, Jacoby Ellsbury, Clay Buchholz... Hanley Ramirez and Anibal Sanchez turned out great, too, and it allowed them to get Beckett.
 
I'm an Indians fan but I actually like the Red Sox. I was rooting for them when they won the World Series a few years ago. I don't think their fans are as bad as some people on this thread made them out to be.

Still, I take the Indians over anyone anyday. Its time for the Tribe to go all the way. I know its going be a great series coming up between Boston and Cleveland.
 
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