Next Xbox May or May Not Require Online/Allow Used Games (Update 4/25/13)

[quote name='whoknows']Says the person who thinks it's okay to hurt the industry.[/QUOTE]

The irony is that I think the industry would be hurting itself by doing this. Denying used games will have a negative impact on sales. The industry wants that 1.8 billion so bad they are ignoring the money they are going to lose by denying that market. You know why games like Uncharted had continued sales growth from sequel to sequel? Because people either borrowed the game or got it cheap used and loved it. When the next game came out they bought it day 1 for $60. That is advertising that pays for itself. The industry is wrong on this one.
 
[quote name='Spokker']Not only do I not know who made the dinner table, I don't care what he has to say about me giving, selling or trading the table with anyone else. The table maker received a fair price for the table, and it is unlikely that I will recoup more than half that for a used table. And I cannot duplicate that table. There is no moral imperative to even consider doing what you suggest.

Perhaps we should also outlaw hand-me-downs via family members.[/QUOTE]

I can't honestly say I would be against it. Hand me downs cause less clothes to be bought. At the very least with hand me downs though, no one is making money off of it. Making money off of used clothes is wrong though. It's why I refuse to shop at places like Goodwill.
 
[quote name='whoknows']Making money off of used clothes is wrong though. It's why I refuse to shop at places like Goodwill.[/QUOTE]
The products at Goodwill are donated for the purpose of being sold by the otherwise unemployable. We've dropped off tons of shit we don't want anymore there.
 
[quote name='Spokker']The products at Goodwill are donated for the purpose of being sold by the otherwise unemployable. We've dropped off tons of shit we don't want anymore there.[/QUOTE]
The bitches at my Goodwill look employable. If you can take a dick, then you have a job somewhere.
 
[quote name='Spokker']The software license argument does not fly when in reality people have been selling these items for years. It is only fairly recent that on the PC the licenses have been effectively enforceable in that they are tied to your Steam account. Then again, on the PC GoG has been very successful with its DRM-free model.

So as we focus our attention to the next generation of consoles, it's difficult for people to swallow the license argument because it has never actually applied in real life. I have a disc and it can be played on my Xbox 360 or anybody else's Xbox 360. It's still going to be an adjustment for people to get used to the fact that the games are tied to your Hotmail account.

I do think, as far as digital distribution goes, that the practice of tying the game to a console *and* gamertag is very nice, and something my household has taken advantage of, and I hope it continues. This should abate some of the controversy.[/QUOTE]

I'll agree, the practice of tying games to consoles and accounts is awesome. I'm hoping MS decides to allow for memory cards to carry the account/rights of a user to allow for people taking consoles to their friends or whatever.

As far as the...swallowability...of the license argument...if the average consumer doesn't get it now, they're gonna be in for a harsh lesson soon enough. They're already buying ebooks, movies, mp3s, apps, and similar digitally delivered goods that they don't actually own. It's mainly with consoles where the paradigm hasn't changed.
 
[quote name='Spokker']The products at Goodwill are donated for the purpose of being sold by the otherwise unemployable. We've dropped off tons of shit we don't want anymore there.[/QUOTE]

Maybe those people shouldn't have dropped out of high school. Just because they can't get a real job doesn't mean they should be able to make others lose their jobs. People should be buying all new stuff and supporting the makers to help the economy instead of buying used at Goodwill.
 
[quote name='CaptainJoel']The bitches at my Goodwill look employable. If you can take a dick, then you have a job somewhere.[/QUOTE]
It's mainly about helping people overcome barriers to employment, like a disability or a criminal record. They even have a page on helping released prisoners get a second chance.

http://www.goodwill.org/goodwill-for-you/specialized-services/people-with-criminal-backgrounds/

[quote name='whoknows']Maybe those people shouldn't have dropped out of high school. [/QUOTE]
Now we are finding some common ground, friend. But still, I can't help but buying some cheap ass games from Goodwill from a guy missing his hands and one eye. fucker scratches my games up with his hooks though.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']
As far as the...swallowability...of the license argument...if the average consumer doesn't get it now, they're gonna be in for a harsh lesson soon enough. They're already buying ebooks, movies, mp3s, apps, and similar digitally delivered goods that they don't actually own. It's mainly with consoles where the paradigm hasn't changed.[/QUOTE]

I agree with you on this. It is about perception. The market might see quite the backlash when we go all digital from the older generations. I am a tweener I guess. I am in my 30s so I still remember when the internet did not exist, there were no cell phones in everyone's pocket, etc. But I have embraced the new technology but with still the old way of thinking about "ownership". I am sure the younger you are the less you think of digital entertainment as owning it in the way you own a book.
 
[quote name='Spokker']It's mainly about helping people overcome barriers to employment, like a disability or a criminal record. They even have a page on helping released prisoners get a second chance.

http://www.goodwill.org/goodwill-for-you/specialized-services/people-with-criminal-backgrounds/[/QUOTE]
I know, but shit. Some women are just made for a certain kind of work (or "twerk") and I think having them work at Goodwill is like spitting in the face of God.

Also, there should seriously be a less strict dress code for them if they're continuing to work at Goodwill. Gotta give the customers what they want.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']I agree with you on this. It is about perception. The market might see quite the backlash when we go all digital from the older generations. I am a tweener I guess. I am in my 30s so I still remember when the internet did not exist, there were no cell phones in everyone's pocket, etc. But I have embraced the new technology but with still the old way of thinking about "ownership". I am sure the younger you are the less you think of digital entertainment as owning it in the way you own a book.[/QUOTE]

Younger people are more open to change.

Explains the difference between our views on the matter.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Who the fuck are you?[/QUOTE]

Leda. Who are you?

[quote name='cancerman1120']I don't trade on this site because I don't know any of you. [/QUOTE]

Then why even talk to us, brah?

[quote name='cancerman1120']I think if I buy a product I have the right to sell or trade that product. Sound to me you are less a Capitalist than me.[/QUOTE]

That's what I'm saying brah. Stop taking things out of context.

[quote name='highoffcoffee496']Who are you and why should we care? [/QUOTE]

Leda. I'm a hit youtube sensation.

Who are you and why should we care?

[quote name='highoffcoffee496']Stop harassing people and get a life[/QUOTE]

You should look up the definition of life. Everybody already has one and I don't need more cuz I'm not selfish.

Communist.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']I agree with you on this. It is about perception. The market might see quite the backlash when we go all digital from the older generations. I am a tweener I guess. I am in my 30s so I still remember when the internet did not exist, there were no cell phones in everyone's pocket, etc. But I have embraced the new technology but with still the old way of thinking about "ownership". I am sure the younger you are the less you think of digital entertainment as owning it in the way you own a book.[/QUOTE]

I'm also coming at this from the perspective of someone who writes code for a living. Users "purchase" our software through a license. The software has such a narrow focus and used for such a specific purpose that we have to be sure that everyone using it is giving us money for it. Otherwise the cost per person would skyrocket (as we have to take reselling into consideration).
 
It's a give and take. On the consumer side, I'm looking at your software as if it has less value if I cannot resell it, or if it has a limited number of activations, or any number of things. You also have to look at what kind of software we are talking about. You might have to buy Word right now just to do some work (I use Open Office but whatever), but I don't have to play Mass Effect 3 or whatever big new release right now. I can wait until it drops in price, and this is what I do on PC, and on consoles to a lesser extent right now.

Where the general consensus falls, I'm not sure, but it is something consumers will take into account as they become aware of the next generation of game consoles and the new policies.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']I'm also coming at this from the perspective of someone who writes code for a living. Users "purchase" our software through a license. The software has such a narrow focus and used for such a specific purpose that we have to be sure that everyone using it is giving us money for it. Otherwise the cost per person would skyrocket (as we have to take reselling into consideration).[/QUOTE]

See when you say things like that it makes complete sense to me. The problem I have with the game industry (mostly consoles) is they want to deny they have a cost problem. Like $60 for every game released is ok. I am more than willing to give up used games if the industry will make it more feasible to buy the number of games I can afford. I just do not buy that eliminating used games while maintaining $60 entry points will make them more money. People only have so much. You want the used game money? That is great but you better be willing to sell it at used game prices.
 
[quote name='Indignate']


Leda. I'm a hit youtube sensation.



You should look up the definition of life. Everybody already has one and I don't need more cuz I'm not selfish.

Communist.[/QUOTE]

Your comments are so dumb that I have come to this conclusion: you are either a genius at the art of trolling....or maybe plain stupid. I honestly can't stop laughing right now thanks for making my night :rofl:
 
Another good example is cross-platform games. You have the example of Sony where you can purchase a game on PS3 and it is playable on the PSP and/or Vita. Then you have the example of Microsoft where a Pinball FX2 table purchased on Xbox 360 does not work on Xbox for Windows 8. You have to purchase it again at the same exact price.

So when thinking about how cross-platform play affects revenue, you have to not only think of the drop in revenue when allowing cross-platform play (not purchasing a second copy), but also the increase in revenue because of the added value to the product, that is, the added value from being able to play on both platforms with one purchase.

There are so many variables to consider, but all other things being equal, the platforms with cross-platform play is going to be more attractive. Similarly, I think the platform where used game sales are allowed is going to be much more attractive and I think that is something Nintendo should aggressively market should the new consoles go this route. Nintendo should embrace its console as giving the consumer greater freedom. Hell, the 3rd parties are showing up anyway. Might as well.
[quote name='highoffcoffee496']Your comments are so dumb that I have come to this conclusion: you are either a genius at the art of trolling....or maybe plain stupid. I honestly can't stop laughing right now thanks for making my night :rofl:[/QUOTE]

You're as annoying. What matters is the argument, not who is trolling or not.
 
Does anyone have some examples of the used market clearly killing a company that would have done great?

Seems kind of stupid to blame used games as the problem. There are so many more possible reasons for why some games sell poorly.
 
I don't like when people harass others in the comments and end every statement by calling someone a "communist." I rather this thread all be about the argument too but I'm not letting trolls go on by annoying others without a taste of their own medicine :|
Anyway I'm done with this thread.
 
For certain games I would even be willing to entertain 30-60 day licenses on digitally distributed games at a lower entry point with the option to upgrade to a buy. Let me try this game first and determine if it is worth the $60 you want. They are asking a lot of the consumer to buy into a product they cannot resell if they are disappointed.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']For certain games I would even be willing to entertain 30-60 licenses on digitally distributed games at a lower entry point with the option to upgrade to a buy. Let me try this game first and determine if it is worth the $60 you want. They are asking a lot of the consumer to buy into a product they cannot resell if they are disappointed.[/QUOTE]

Well, how much does the average person really make back? It's not much of a hedge to buy something new if you recoup half or less even after playing it. Might as well just rent.

Seems a bit odd that someone would blindly buy a $60 game in this day and age. It's so very easy to pull up a few of the numerous day one reviews for any game, and easier still to take a peek at an aggregate review site.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']For certain games I would even be willing to entertain 30-60 day licenses on digitally distributed games at a lower entry point with the option to upgrade to a buy. Let me try this game first and determine if it is worth the $60 you want. They are asking a lot of the consumer to buy into a product they cannot resell if they are disappointed.[/QUOTE]

PSN has timed trials for PS+ members. I think that should be extended to all users. I think good demos would suffice, though. Even then, you can always wait for sales so that you are not as disappointed. I would have felt that the Unfinished Swan was a giant rip off for $15, but at its sale price it was a steal.
 
[quote name='whoknows']30-60?

Maybe two would be acceptable for a $10 premium or something along those lines.[/QUOTE]

It would depend on the cost and the game. Heavily MP based games would need at least 7 days.
 
[quote name='Spokker']PSN has timed trials for PS+ members. I think that should be extended to all users. I think good demos would suffice, though. Even then, you can always wait for sales so that you are not as disappointed. I would have felt that the Unfinished Swan was a giant rip off for $15, but at its sale price it was a steal.[/QUOTE]

Playstation has definitely given me more confidence in their pricing strategy if they went no used games. At this point I would trust them more than MS if they both did it and I am really only a PS3 player for exclusives and PS+ stuff.
 
[quote name='Spokker']PSN has timed trials for PS+ members. I think that should be extended to all users. I think good demos would suffice, though. Even then, you can always wait for sales so that you are not as disappointed. I would have felt that the Unfinished Swan was a giant rip off for $15, but at its sale price it was a steal.[/QUOTE]

I was a fan of Kingdom of Amalur's demo. It contained the first couple missions of story, and after a certain point, you just get 30 minutes or something of "do whatever you want". After that, demo ends.

Sony's aquisition of Galkai could be nicely utilized here. Pick a game, instantly stream a 1-hour trial of it, be able to use save progress if you buy it....
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']It would depend on the cost and the game. Heavily MP based games would need at least 7 days.[/QUOTE]

People would prestige Call of Duty in that time.

If it did what PS+ did with trials that would be okay. Buy the game, play it for an hour then it'll ask you if you want to register the disc with your system or however they'll do it. More than fair.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Playstation has definitely given me more confidence in their pricing strategy if they went no used games. At this point I would trust them more than MS if they both did it and I am really only a PS3 player for exclusives and PS+ stuff.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty cynical but Sony got me with PS+. I got three months free initially through the holiday bundle and couple games came with free months, and I'm going to renew with the 12 month + 3 months free deal.

What it basically does is reduce the marginal cost of new PS+ games to zero, so trying games you would otherwise not try is risk-free. Their sales are not terrible, either. I got my first Hot Shots Golf during the sale for $6 and I love it. PS+ is like having an annual pass to Disneyland or something. There's certainly cost/benefit to consider and it's not for everyone.
 
Well this whole thing started with me in a tizzy but after discussing it with some of you I feel like I have taken a step back off the ledge. I may still disagree with some of it but I feel like the industry could make it work but it would definitely take some changes. One I am not sure they want to make but the next year should be pretty interesting.
 
In any event, I'm sure Microsoft would program in a kill switch in case the entire no-used-game thing failed. It's too risky to waste an entire console generation's worth of profit on.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']In any event, I'm sure Microsoft would program in a kill switch in case the entire no-used-game thing failed. It's too risky to waste an entire console generation's worth of profit on.[/QUOTE]

Yeah I am still leaning towards one more generation with used games and then the next generation will be all digital. I know it would alienate some gamers but in 7-8 years I would guess it becomes even less an issue.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Playstation has definitely given me more confidence in their pricing strategy if they went no used games. At this point I would trust them more than MS if they both did it and I am really only a PS3 player for exclusives and PS+ stuff.[/QUOTE]

Just don't argue with what Microsoft says and you'll be fine. They'll get more money to make more games and everyone will be happy.
 
[quote name='whoknows']Just don't argue with what Microsoft says and you'll be fine. They'll get more money to make more games and everyone will be happy.[/QUOTE]

That's conjecture. If the rumors are true, we'll see. But either way it won't be solely attributed to the absence of used sales. There are numerous other factors, such as a hopefully improving economy. Many people who buy games are not well off. If those gamers who are doing poorly now can improve their situation a little more, they'll be able to spend more on gaming, which is a cheap alternative to a plethora of other thrills with higher costs.

Besides, more money does not equal more games, and especially not more quality games.
 
[quote name='ID2006']That's conjecture. If the rumors are true, we'll see. But either way it won't be solely attributed to the absence of used sales. There are numerous other factors, such as a hopefully improving economy. Many people who buy games are not well off. If those gamers who are doing poorly now can improve their situation a little more, they'll be able to spend more on gaming, which is a cheap alternative to a plethora of other thrills with higher costs.[/QUOTE]

If they aren't well off they should shift their priorities around obviously.

If they are going to continue to be irresponsible they could at least buy games new to help the industry and not Gamestop.
 
Irresponsible by not helping themselves be better off obviously. If they can't afford games why are they buying them? They should invest their money and pay for their health insurance. It's people like them that forced the President to create Obamacare.
 
sigh

I really do not want to get pulled in to this but since I got a bill for some routine blood work today I feel like I should say something. I have insurance. I had CBC, Chem, Thyroid, B12, and Vit. D checked (turns out I am Vitamin D deficient so who knew). This is the thing. The BILLED amount was $1,170. The amount allowed was $349 which I have to pay since my deductible has not been met. That is some crazy stuff. So if someone with no insurance needed some routine blood work they would try to make them pay $1,170...that is insane and has nothing to do with "bettering" yourself.
 
Wow. You constructed some imaginary nutjob framework from a few phrases in my post. This isn't that political; don't know why you're trying to make it so.

Anyway, I even personally know people who aren't well off but own a console and buy a game occasionally. Would they buy more if they could afford it? Sure. Doesn't mean they've taken on debt just to buy games.

It's quite responsible if you mitigate your leisure time expenditures to something cost effective like gaming instead of going to the movie theater a lot or taking a cruise, etc.

Edit: Points for irony on a site devoted to helping poor gamers save money.
 
[quote name='ID2006']Wow. You constructed some imaginary nutjob framework from a few phrases in my post. This isn't that political; don't know why you're trying to make it so.

Anyway, I even personally know people who aren't well off but own a console and buy a game occasionally. Would they buy more if they could afford it? Sure. Doesn't mean they've taken on debt just to buy games.

It's quite responsible if you mitigate your leisure time expenditures to something cost effective like gaming instead of going to the movie theater a lot or taking a cruise, etc.[/QUOTE]

Less game buying more picking up a 2nd job.

If they aren't well off and they're working full time they should pick up another job.

If they aren't even working full time then they're obviously spending too much time on unimportant things like gaming. Those are the kinds of people that would buy used games and hurt the industry to save a few dollars at Gamestop.
 
[quote name='whoknows'] They should invest their money and pay for their health insurance. [/QUOTE]

Wait, isn't investing making money off something you didn't make/create?

Isn't that wrong, according to you, based on what you said a few pages back?

Also, if it's wrong to make money off things you didn't make/create, do you only buy things directly from the source? I take it you are self employed making/creating things for direct distribution to the consumers?

No retail for you, since that is people making money off things they didn't make/create, right?

You know MS, Sony, and Valve all make money from selling things they didn't make, right? MS takes a royalty cut from all games sold on Xbox, regardless of who made them.

And as far as your crap about helping/hurting the industry, am I correct in assuming you purchase all new games at $60 price on day one, since that's what the "industry" really wants/needs? Isn't buy a game at less than $60 also hurting the industry?

If they want to do away with physical copies of games, fine, but having a physical copy work like a digital one does is wrong. That's like making a regular book and an e-book have the same rules.

Now if you'll excuse me, I'm gonna go buy some used games and "hurt" the industry more.

Edit: For the record, I fully support the console makers ability to make what I consider a bad business decision and implement this, as long as the rules are clearly stated upfront and not changed retro actively down the road. It's their right to do what they want with their systems, I just hope they are prepared for any backlash, such as people not buying the system in protest, the race to break the system, and of course possible increased piracy.
 
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[quote name='whoknows']Maybe those people shouldn't have dropped out of high school. Just because they can't get a real job doesn't mean they should be able to make others lose their jobs. People should be buying all new stuff and supporting the makers to help the economy instead of buying used at Goodwill.[/QUOTE]

Yeah lets just throw everything out and always buy new. Congratulations, you've just filled up our landfills. Where do you expect us to put all this new garbage?
 
[quote name='whoknows']too many asinine things you have said to quote everything [/QUOTE]

Ok first off, go read this link (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/First-sale_doctrine).

It is a part of law that I am allowed to sale a copy of any created work so long as I dont create another copy.

Buying used does not "hurt" the industry, it helps it. This is freaking cheapassgamer. Who here is paying full price for games? If you are you are doing it wrong. Through sales, pre-order promos, etc one should never being paying 60 for most games. I trade in a lot of my games to best buy in order to BUY MORE GAMES. Novel idea. I spend 60 on a game and get a 20 dollar promo for preordering that game, turn around and trade the 60 dollar game in for 20-30 bucks, stack it with the 20 dollar cert and the next game is 10-20 out of pocket. Rinse and repeat.

Would I buy nearly as many games without the ability to do this? Nope. What would I do? Use gamefly a lot more than I do and purchase used games. Now how does a "used" game get that way? Someone freaking bought it "new" If there wasnt someone buying new games I would not be able to buy a used one. Someone buying a used game DOES NOT equal a lost "new" sale. At least not in all cases. The consumer would make an economic decision to not buy because it is not at a price point they were willing to pay, hence no sale of the "new" game.

Serious questions for you. How old are you? Have you ever taken a basic economics class/course?

If the next consoles are still disc based, and you take away the ability to have a used game market, the industry revenue will take a hit. The used market HELPS the market. Dont let the industry fool you into thinking its pirates and the used games. Its the freaking pricing on their titles and piss poor management as to why they cant succeed financially.

Now if they go all digital a la Steam and prices come down a la steam with their sales, then it would work out ok. The effect is the same. Overall price drops. New and used sales effectively combine for a lower overall price point for games as a whole. Same thing as with steam and their sales on digital titles.
 
If there's money to be made off used sales, why don't those "makers" reach out to consumers, buy back those used copies themselves, and then resell them to customers? Then they would get a piece of the action.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Well according to this guy publisher/developers should not even offer demos. This is what I dislike about the games industry. If your game is mediocre then it is best to trick people into spending $60 rather than making the game better. If you eliminate used sales and demos so that people are stuck with your crap game you can bet less games will be sold.

http://www.ign.com/articles/2013/02...+twitter&utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=social[/QUOTE]

Actually watched the full keynote. Of the 22 minute long video, he spent maybe a minute talking about it. It was part of an overall spiel about plans and the nature of games. Thinking of things like Achievements, when you see a friend with one, your head starts going, and you start thinking "hey, he has that, I want that, I can get it", and so you make plans to get it. And then you start to act on it. And so on.

Where demos came in - he provided a chart showing Xbox360 game unit sales for the first six months (Data courtesy of EEDAR). The bottom line was no demo or trailer. Second lowest was demo only. The line after that was demo and trailer. Then, roughly twice as high, was the line for trailer only.

His rationale came down to the Plan idea. The trailer plants the idea in your head that you want to play it, and so you have a plan in your head to play it. A demo allows a user to sate that plan, and so they no longer plan to play the game. Trailer only creates the plan, and forces them to buy the game if they want to act on their plan.
 
[quote name='Salamando3000']Actually watched the full keynote. Of the 22 minute long video, he spent maybe a minute talking about it. It was part of an overall spiel about plans and the nature of games. Thinking of things like Achievements, when you see a friend with one, your head starts going, and you start thinking "hey, he has that, I want that, I can get it", and so you make plans to get it. And then you start to act on it. And so on.

Where demos came in - he provided a chart showing Xbox360 game unit sales for the first six months (Data courtesy of EEDAR). The bottom line was no demo or trailer. Second lowest was demo only. The line after that was demo and trailer. Then, roughly twice as high, was the line for trailer only.

His rationale came down to the Plan idea. The trailer plants the idea in your head that you want to play it, and so you have a plan in your head to play it. A demo allows a user to sate that plan, and so they no longer plan to play the game. Trailer only creates the plan, and forces them to buy the game if they want to act on their plan.[/QUOTE]

Hey thanks for the info. When taken in that context I can see his point more clearly. I just went back to that article. It seems it was edited or something because there are now videos and what seems to be more info there. Strange.
 
Not trying to restart an argument but after the release of Aliens today I have to bring up how crazy eliminating used games are again. This is a game that already has a season pass for $30 yet the $60 game looks like a steaming pile of crap. We have argued and argued about game development and cost a lot here but this is a perfect example of a company trying to monetize the player instead of putting out a decent game. If this game could not be traded back in people would be so upset. I know not every game is a winner but when a game this bad from a good developer has a $30 season pass it just stinks.

IGN: 4.5/10
Destructoid 2.5/10
Eurogamer 3/10
Polygon 3/10
Gamespot 4.5/10
3D Juegos 3.8/10
EGM 9/10 (WTF?)
The Escapist 6/10
Gametrailers 5.9/10
Edge 5/10
 
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