Obama Care Could Be Deadly

[quote name='hobbie8046']So can dying from dehydration while in the hospital for cancer treatment. Do you really want to get into a discussion about healthcare sob stories? I could dig up some real good ones from England and Canada if you want...[/QUOTE]

Are you arguing that their doctors are incompetent or that people die because of waiting in lines? Do you think the problem is worse in their system than in ours?
 
[quote name='Koggit']interesting albeit too heavily edited clip show until about halfway through when their focus shifts from "look at the crazies" to "biased coverage of current events is encouraging the crazies to be crazy"

i hope their journalism professor(s) rip them for being so hypocritical

or maybe they've been studying FNC enough to realize hypocrisy gets viewers and dont care about being actual journalists

i'd have liked to see the unedited video of the guy in the flag shirt with the GWB hat -- he fully acknowledged that his news is coming through a conservative filter and saw no problem with it. a seemingly rational man doing the irrational. i'd have liked to hear more from him.[/QUOTE]

I wish someone would tell him that GWB was a progressive, moderate Republican, not the extreme right winger that he wishes he were. GWB and the likes of Graham, McCain, etc. absolutely ruined the Republican party, much like Pelosi/Reid/Obama are doing to the Dems now. The only difference is that GWB brought the GOP too far to the middle while Obama is bringing the Democrat party too far to the left.
 
[quote name='Msut77']W was a progressive moderate the way you are reasonable and honest.[/QUOTE]

Anyone who disagrees with you on healthcare insurance reform is dishonest? Interesting.

GWB nationalized more businesses than any President before him. He signed off on bailouts of AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Bear Stearns, etc. He signed off on a stimulus package (though I disagree with it, at least it was truly a stimulus not a pork filled kickback branded as stimulus). Bush was a progressive. McCain is a progressive. Graham is a progressive. Obama is a progressive.
 
Right now if i were to get sick i don't know what i would do. I don't currently have health insurance, and couldn't get any if i tried (and believe em I've tried). I'm currently in schoool and working part time. If i were to get sick right now, seriously sick, it would basically destroy my life. Any money i have saved for school would be gone, so i'd have to drop out of school most likely, and I'm sure I'd still be left owing plenty more. It would just be a huge burden most likely couldn't handle on my own.

I'd basically be screwed thanks to our spectacular health care system. Call it a sob story if you want, but it could quite easily happen.
 
[quote name='hobbie8046']I wish someone would tell him that GWB was a progressive, moderate Republican, not the extreme right winger that he wishes he were. GWB and the likes of Graham, McCain, etc. absolutely ruined the Republican party, much like Pelosi/Reid/Obama are doing to the Dems now. The only difference is that GWB brought the GOP too far to the middle while Obama is bringing the Democrat party too far to the left.[/QUOTE]

that's not a fair discussion -- it's all relative.

relative to your ideology, sure, obama may be far left. relative to mine he's centrist. relative to the leaders of other western countries he's pretty damn conservative. relative to the average elected U.S. official he seems fairly moderate imo, that one's debatable but pretty irrelevant.
 
[quote name='hobbie8046']Anyone who disagrees with you on healthcare insurance reform is dishonest? Interesting.

GWB nationalized more businesses than any President before him. He signed off on bailouts of AIG, Freddie Mac, Fannie Mae, Bear Stearns, etc. He signed off on a stimulus package (though I disagree with it, at least it was truly a stimulus not a pork filled kickback branded as stimulus). Bush was a progressive. McCain is a progressive. Graham is a progressive. Obama is a progressive.[/QUOTE]
You're just pissed because the republican party has changed and left you behind. I know most republicans cringe at the very mention of evolution, but typically in nature those who don't adapt will die. "W" was just the latest evolution of the republican party. If you aren't happy with it then join the teabaggers like the rest of the disgruntled former republicans.
 
[quote name='hobbie8046']Anyone who disagrees with you on healthcare insurance reform is dishonest? Interesting.[/quote]

The problem isn't that you "disagree" with me, the problem is that you ignore substance in favor of basically making repeated erroneous assertions and telling everyone "fuck y'all I got mine" failing to add the caveat
...for now
.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Some actual definition of "progressive" might help this little tangent go along a lot better...[/QUOTE]


Oh please, this can't be the first time you played Calvinball.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Oh please, this can't be the first time you played Calvinball.[/QUOTE]
While he's distracted, you can set up a boomerang zone around your third goal wicket.
 
[quote name='Koggit']that's not a fair discussion -- it's all relative.

relative to your ideology, sure, obama may be far left. relative to mine he's centrist. relative to the leaders of other western countries he's pretty damn conservative. relative to the average elected U.S. official he seems fairly moderate imo, that one's debatable but pretty irrelevant.[/QUOTE]

You cannot possibly believe Obama is a centrist. He had the most liberal voting record in the Senate. That's not relative, my friend.
 
Relative to most anywhere else in Europe or Canada?

Yeah, he's pretty fuckin' centrist, man. He'd probably be considered a right-wing member of our Liberal party or a left-wing Conservative up here.

If he survived the government mandated injection of Polio, I mean.
 
I think he had the most "liberal" voting record one year while he was in the senate, but not the other years. That must average out to the most liberal though right? If I understand averages as well as I do the word "relative" that seems correct to me.
 
[quote name='SpazX']I thought I just saw a post from a Canadian, but Canadians are all dead due to poor health care, so that's just crazy.[/QUOTE]

Weird - I thought I saw several posts from Americans, but by this same logic, they must all be dead as well because our health care system is so pathetic.

Damn it, I'm American. Guess I'm dead too.
 
I think most of the people here on these parts of the internets are insured. They don't have to deal with the dose of death the Canadian government gives all its citizens though, as governments are wont to do if they have any say in insurance.
 
[quote name='SpazX']I think most of the people here on these parts of the internets are insured.[/QUOTE]
Even on the internet, JJ doesn't count.
 
Obama bankrupts states if this passes. Mandates for the states to give more free care and sign more people up for state care.
TN Governor says please dont pass this bill.
 
You couldnt invent a more expensive way to do health care than the American system, so thats impossible. Anything is going to be cheaper than seeing everyone in the ER.
 
In the new bill that was released, what is wrong with it? What kind of objections do people have to the newly released bill? Citations too please.
 
I will cite the lack of single payer and a lack of a public option to put insurance companies out of business...but I'll settle for the bipartisan bill that we do have.

It may not have Republican votes, but it has Republican ideas - and isn't that at the heart of what bipartisanship is all about?
 
[quote name='militantatheistaphob']
panic.gif
[/QUOTE]

Full moon tonight or what?
 
Just thought i'd post this, take it for what you will.

Mark had no family to help cover his costs, so he suffered alone in his apartment, racked with pain to the point that he lost 10 pounds a month. By the time he saw me, his right testicle was the size of a fist. I told him the bad news from the ultrasound report, and, for a moment, his physical pain was shocked into submission. His main concern betrayed his youth: Would this diagnosis affect his ability to be a father?
Click to expand...

http://www.tennessean.com/article/20100319/OPINION03/3190354/1001/NEWS
 
Anyone see the video of the teabaggers harrassing the dude with Parkinson's sitting there with a sign? fucking awful, these people are terrible. Christians my ASS.

Real Time w/ Bill Maher was amazing tonight. They had on Steve Moore, economist from the WSJ. You'd think he would be above the talking points that have no basis in reality, alas...
 
I posted the video and the follow up.

It was fucking terrible.

Moore is the guy from the Club for Growth right?

The WSJ Op-Ed section is trash and has been for a long time.
 
I don't really pay attention to his op-eds. I usually read Peggy Noonan (to see her change her opinion) or Karl Rove's spin.

By the way, has anyone ever pointed out to O'Reilly the irony in inviting a professional spinner to enter the No-Spin zone?
 
You gotta give it to Pelosi. For all the shit I've talked about her ability to whip the votes into line, she sure as hell proved me wrong today. She spanked the no's like bitches and turned em out. Stupak's left holding the bag. That guy's ideas won't see the light of day if he stays a legislator for 100 years.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']So besides Idaho, which states are planning to sue the gov if this passes?[/QUOTE]

I believe the last count had legislation pending in 37 other states.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']So besides Idaho, which states are planning to sue the gov if this passes?[/QUOTE]

The same number that will secede from the union.
 
Good god, people are fucking stupid. There's really not much to this bill. It doesn't overhaul or drastically change our health care system. It just has some provisions and regulations in it that are designed to expand coverage, lower costs, and make it easier to get health insurance.
 
Well I'm glad you're citing the W&M Committee and not the CBO Bob. Even Steve Moore (WSJ Economist) cited CBO projections on Medicare, when in fact, the CBO didn't begin till 1974. Whoops. WSJ Economist guys.
 
I haven't really commented on this issue yet because:
1) Being in the industry, I'm quite biased.
2) I haven't had the time to fully analyze the changing bill and its implications. In fact many of the physicians that I work with have little idea what the implications will be; but a lot of us are quite apprehensive.

From my standpoint, I am disappointed that there is no mention of fixing the flawed SGR based repayment formula (with a potential 21% cut in Medicare reimbursements), no tort reform, and elimination of consultation codes.

Unfortunately, physicians are easy targets... every one assumes that we are greedy and make so much money... and that may have been the case several decades ago, but times have really changed. The cost of medical education has gone up, while reimbursements have gone down and salaries have been rather stagnant (although this does depend on the specialty). There's a reason I have to hang out on CAG looking for $2.99 games on Steam... I'm in my late 20s and am nowhere near breaking even yet... If anyone here is planning on going into medicine, just make sure you know what you are getting into. Sure, the field is fascinating from an intellectual standpoint, and sometimes, despite the myriad of roadblocks you will be able to make rewarding positive impacts on others' lives... but sometimes the paperwork, politics, and limited autonomy do get in the way...

We'll have to see what happens this weekend. This is all scary stuff!
 
[quote name='BigT']
Unfortunately, physicians are easy targets... every one assumes that we are greedy and make so much money... and that may have been the case several decades ago, but times have really changed. The cost of medical education has gone up, while reimbursements have gone down and salaries have been rather stagnant (although this does depend on the specialty). [/QUOTE]

Insurance companies are "greedy" by design, not by the will of some individual villain. I have no problem with a doctor (or any highly skilled professional) getting his or her dues. I have a problem with middlemen (insurance companies) screwing poor and sick people out of coverage.
 
Yep, I don't think many go after doctors.

I have some issues with things like flat fees for office visits. It shouldn't cost $200 to see a doctor for less than 5 minutes to get a prescription refill that requires yearly visits etc., when it costs the same $200 for say a 30-45 minute visit for a complicated diagnosis etc.

But yeah, Doctors deserve pretty big salaries just like another highly skilled/highly educated professional.

The main problem is with insurance companies who take thousands of people's dollars and try to deny every coverage they can, deny coverage period to people already sick etc.

Cost is part of the problem, but that's from inefficiency, over reliance on expensive tests that aren't needed much of the time etc., not so much doctor's salaries. Tort reform and more advancement of evidence-based best practices among other things are needed on that front.
 
It is always a guess of what they say vs. what they actually believe..

Short answer they don't know either, they make it all up as they go along.
 
[quote name='SpazX']So what exactly are we supposed to do if not make estimates?[/QUOTE]

This isn't limited to the Health Care debate - but what needs to be done is that honest estimates need to be given. You and I both know that they tinker with the numbers to make them look better than they actually are - from things like taking Iraq/Afghani War funding out of the budget or what not.

Be honest with us up front about the cost and let us decide.

People wonder why there's so much distrust for Uncle Sam.
 
That would take a bunch of people agreeing on what would be included/not included in estimates, good luck with that. Every time some estimate of cost is made either side accuses the other of leaving something out or estimating something over the wrong length of time etc...

And through it all nether side thinks their way of estimating is wrong.
 
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