Obama Care Could Be Deadly
- Thread starter gmsisko1
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[quote name='BigT']There's a difference between progressive ideas that provide fairness and equal rights for all and massive entitlement programs that will invariably become insolvent.
Sure, it would be nice to give great healthcare coverage to all, but unfortunately, this is way too expensive. We cannot cover every 100 year old person who comes into the hospital clinging to life and running up $300K per hospitalization. We cannot cover every single person's self-imposed problems - and most medical problems are either 1) self imposed or 2) related to old age; a small minority of cases are related to simply bad luck.
Despite the CBO's estimates, I can guarantee you that this entitlement program will cost a lot unless they slash reimbursements greatly (they did not include the doc fix in the CBO estimates to make them look good).
I think that we are approaching the health care problem all wrong. Our health "insurance" is not an insurance program anymore! I would propose that we should have a true high deductible insurance system that is for emergencies. The rest of medical care should be provided on a fee for service basis. Instead we have this weird concept that medical care is a right... and this leads to cases like the following - illegal aliens crossing the border and visiting an ER to get care -98 y/o people with no quality of life being admitted repeatedly to the hospital at a great cost - terminally ill patient's who are being kept alive at the state's cost because they provide nice social security or pension checks for the family - Guys with alcoholic cirrhosis (even illegal aliens) getting liver transplants while paying only a small fraction of the cost, etc., etc.
With this program, we are going to go bankrupt eventually! Just watch.[/QUOTE]
Wow, it's amazing that "your" healthcare approach is the EXACT same one I've been reading on conservative blogs and hearing about coming from talk radio. Let me guess, Limbaugh came up with it? Or was it Hannity? Beck?
With all this talk about the travesty of government spending, you must be outraged at the amount of money we keep spending on two wars as well as all the money we throw at Defense spending and contractors each year for weapons and programs which are outdated? With what we could save there, we'd probably have healthcare paid for our lifetimes. What have we spent in Iraq alone? A trillion in LESS than a decade? Where's the conservative outrage there? Or is it only a travesty when we're trying to help our citizens rather than kill people?
Sure, it would be nice to give great healthcare coverage to all, but unfortunately, this is way too expensive. We cannot cover every 100 year old person who comes into the hospital clinging to life and running up $300K per hospitalization. We cannot cover every single person's self-imposed problems - and most medical problems are either 1) self imposed or 2) related to old age; a small minority of cases are related to simply bad luck.
Despite the CBO's estimates, I can guarantee you that this entitlement program will cost a lot unless they slash reimbursements greatly (they did not include the doc fix in the CBO estimates to make them look good).
I think that we are approaching the health care problem all wrong. Our health "insurance" is not an insurance program anymore! I would propose that we should have a true high deductible insurance system that is for emergencies. The rest of medical care should be provided on a fee for service basis. Instead we have this weird concept that medical care is a right... and this leads to cases like the following - illegal aliens crossing the border and visiting an ER to get care -98 y/o people with no quality of life being admitted repeatedly to the hospital at a great cost - terminally ill patient's who are being kept alive at the state's cost because they provide nice social security or pension checks for the family - Guys with alcoholic cirrhosis (even illegal aliens) getting liver transplants while paying only a small fraction of the cost, etc., etc.
With this program, we are going to go bankrupt eventually! Just watch.[/QUOTE]
Wow, it's amazing that "your" healthcare approach is the EXACT same one I've been reading on conservative blogs and hearing about coming from talk radio. Let me guess, Limbaugh came up with it? Or was it Hannity? Beck?
With all this talk about the travesty of government spending, you must be outraged at the amount of money we keep spending on two wars as well as all the money we throw at Defense spending and contractors each year for weapons and programs which are outdated? With what we could save there, we'd probably have healthcare paid for our lifetimes. What have we spent in Iraq alone? A trillion in LESS than a decade? Where's the conservative outrage there? Or is it only a travesty when we're trying to help our citizens rather than kill people?
Good luck lawdood, you won't get anything but argument by assertion from BigT.
He is kind of like the Team Rocket of the vs. forum, he comes in says pretty much same "Libs be crazy" spiel and then gets knocked into the stratosphere only to keep coming back.
He is kind of like the Team Rocket of the vs. forum, he comes in says pretty much same "Libs be crazy" spiel and then gets knocked into the stratosphere only to keep coming back.
[quote name='Msut77']Good luck lawdood, you won't get anything but argument by assertion from BigT.
He is kind of like the Team Rocket of the vs. forum, he comes in says pretty much same "Libs be crazy" spiel and then gets knocked into the stratosphere only to keep coming back.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I kinda got that feeling since it's like reading a conservative talking point blog when looking at his posts.
He is kind of like the Team Rocket of the vs. forum, he comes in says pretty much same "Libs be crazy" spiel and then gets knocked into the stratosphere only to keep coming back.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, I kinda got that feeling since it's like reading a conservative talking point blog when looking at his posts.
lol. In Obamaland, 5 Days = Approx 36 hours...
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5t8GdxFYBU&feature=player_embedded
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o5t8GdxFYBU&feature=player_embedded
BigT
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[quote name='lawdood']Wow, it's amazing that "your" healthcare approach is the EXACT same one I've been reading on conservative blogs and hearing about coming from talk radio. Let me guess, Limbaugh came up with it? Or was it Hannity? Beck? [/quote]
If you must know, I'm a big fan of John and Ken on KFI 640 http://www.kfiam640.com/pages/jk2010.html. Don't have cable TV, so Hannity and Beck are out... don't listen to Limbaugh much. Politically, I'm a big Ron Paul supporter, even if he was an ob/gyn...
The wars were completely stupid and without any sort of justification. The WMD argument was a total scam. There are a ton of crooks in the military industrial complex. I was absolutely horrified by the extreme spending perpetrated by the Bush administration. If anything, this whole healthcare bill is in large part Bush's fault... he was so totally incompetent that the country lashed out and went fully for the Democrats... and now we got their wet dream.
High deductible and low premium health plans simply make a lot of sense for otherwise healthy young or middle aged people... the probability that one will need medical care during these times is rare. Furthermore, there aren't really any screening tests that you can do at this time (other than pap smears once in a while for women or testicular cancer screening for men - both cervical and testicular cancers are quite rare, however).
With regard to your comment about conservative talking points, well, you're going to see whatever you want to see... besides I'm in full support of Obama's death squads... expensive ICU stays for 90 y/o people who eventually just become petri dishes for multi-drug resistant organisms are just silly and wasteful.
If you must know, I'm a big fan of John and Ken on KFI 640 http://www.kfiam640.com/pages/jk2010.html. Don't have cable TV, so Hannity and Beck are out... don't listen to Limbaugh much. Politically, I'm a big Ron Paul supporter, even if he was an ob/gyn...
The wars were completely stupid and without any sort of justification. The WMD argument was a total scam. There are a ton of crooks in the military industrial complex. I was absolutely horrified by the extreme spending perpetrated by the Bush administration. If anything, this whole healthcare bill is in large part Bush's fault... he was so totally incompetent that the country lashed out and went fully for the Democrats... and now we got their wet dream.
High deductible and low premium health plans simply make a lot of sense for otherwise healthy young or middle aged people... the probability that one will need medical care during these times is rare. Furthermore, there aren't really any screening tests that you can do at this time (other than pap smears once in a while for women or testicular cancer screening for men - both cervical and testicular cancers are quite rare, however).
With regard to your comment about conservative talking points, well, you're going to see whatever you want to see... besides I'm in full support of Obama's death squads... expensive ICU stays for 90 y/o people who eventually just become petri dishes for multi-drug resistant organisms are just silly and wasteful.
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BigT
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[quote name='Strell']I wish you were my doctor. I imagine plenty of "walk it off" prescriptions.[/QUOTE]
People, and doctors especially, are biased to "do something."
In many cases, the correct answer is to provide reassurance and do nothing.
For example, healthy people with viral URIs rarely need antibiotics, but they often get a z-pak, some amoxicillin, or even a fluoroquinolone... in most cases these are viral infections that are not complicated by secondary bacterial infections. Furthermore, even if they do get a bacterial infection, they will very likely clear it on their own. So giving antibiotics to people with URIs is usually the wrong answer unless they have other comorbidities or their symptoms have lasted a long time without improvement. I practice what I preach; I haven't taken any antibiotics since my teens! Of course in hospitalized patients, the elderly, people with CF, people with asthma or COPD, people with HIV, or in other immunosuppresed patients I'm much more aggressive.
The same goes for invasive and noninvasive tests...
...we take way too many people for cardiac catheterization...
...we get way too many imaging studies (MRIs and CTs). MRIs are expensive but otherwise benign, but CTs could expose one to significant amounts of ionizing radiation (especially if the machines aren't maintained or calibrated well).
People, and doctors especially, are biased to "do something."
In many cases, the correct answer is to provide reassurance and do nothing.
For example, healthy people with viral URIs rarely need antibiotics, but they often get a z-pak, some amoxicillin, or even a fluoroquinolone... in most cases these are viral infections that are not complicated by secondary bacterial infections. Furthermore, even if they do get a bacterial infection, they will very likely clear it on their own. So giving antibiotics to people with URIs is usually the wrong answer unless they have other comorbidities or their symptoms have lasted a long time without improvement. I practice what I preach; I haven't taken any antibiotics since my teens! Of course in hospitalized patients, the elderly, people with CF, people with asthma or COPD, people with HIV, or in other immunosuppresed patients I'm much more aggressive.
The same goes for invasive and noninvasive tests...
...we take way too many people for cardiac catheterization...
...we get way too many imaging studies (MRIs and CTs). MRIs are expensive but otherwise benign, but CTs could expose one to significant amounts of ionizing radiation (especially if the machines aren't maintained or calibrated well).
[quote name='BigT']People, and doctors especially, are biased to "do something."
In many cases, the correct answer is to provide reassurance and do nothing.[/quote]
Been told all sorts of times that "this is viral, stay at home and rest, that's the best we can do." So doctors are capable of it. Pretty much why I'll only go to a doctor if I'm shitting through my eyes, because in any other case it's just the old chicken soup write off.
Which is part of the reason why healthcare costs are out of control. That's the doctor's fault, and by extension, whatever pharmaceutical company is paying him kickbacks to get people on their drugs.
If doctors flatly said "you don't need this, and here's why," then costs could be reduced. So I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. If you're trying to clarify the position above I quoted, you're not really adding anything here.
I'm all for less antibiotics. People are becoming pussies, and they are pussifying our meds because of that. Still strikes me as something that doctors ought to be in better control of.
Ok. More doctors should stop this, and whoever is interfering (pharma, insurance, whatever) should step the
off. This is why our healthcare is so convoluted - there's endless levels of bullshit to wade through, each with a hand going for the pie. Time to cut some fingers off.
In many cases, the correct answer is to provide reassurance and do nothing.[/quote]
Been told all sorts of times that "this is viral, stay at home and rest, that's the best we can do." So doctors are capable of it. Pretty much why I'll only go to a doctor if I'm shitting through my eyes, because in any other case it's just the old chicken soup write off.
Which is part of the reason why healthcare costs are out of control. That's the doctor's fault, and by extension, whatever pharmaceutical company is paying him kickbacks to get people on their drugs.
If doctors flatly said "you don't need this, and here's why," then costs could be reduced. So I'm not sure why you're bringing this up. If you're trying to clarify the position above I quoted, you're not really adding anything here.
I'm all for less antibiotics. People are becoming pussies, and they are pussifying our meds because of that. Still strikes me as something that doctors ought to be in better control of.
Ok. More doctors should stop this, and whoever is interfering (pharma, insurance, whatever) should step the
off. This is why our healthcare is so convoluted - there's endless levels of bullshit to wade through, each with a hand going for the pie. Time to cut some fingers off.The bill that passed by the by includes cost controls and offsets enough to make the bill deficit neutral at least. It also mandates effectiveness studies (albeit toothless) that could end up doing a lot of good later on.
That is compared to the Big T plan which was last I checked to do nothing.
That is compared to the Big T plan which was last I checked to do nothing.
[quote name='evanft']Bob and BigT posts right after each other? It's like some sort of unbelievably retarded combo!!![/QUOTE]
Ohh... so close. It was Obama's campaign promises were unbelievably retarded. Or, perhaps, it was just the morons who voted for him, thinking he'd actually follow through. Those who really believed in the "change" he was selling.
Ohh... so close. It was Obama's campaign promises were unbelievably retarded. Or, perhaps, it was just the morons who voted for him, thinking he'd actually follow through. Those who really believed in the "change" he was selling.
^THE ONION!!!
sure this health care thingy looks good on paper but if it comes at the cost of slowing down medical advancements, then it's not worth it, do you want to provide health care to everyone or reach that next breakthrough in medicine where people won't even need it
sure this health care thingy looks good on paper but if it comes at the cost of slowing down medical advancements, then it's not worth it, do you want to provide health care to everyone or reach that next breakthrough in medicine where people won't even need it
[quote name='Tony208']^THE ONION!!!
sure this health care thingy looks good on paper but if it comes at the cost of slowing down medical advancements, then it's not worth it, do you want to provide health care to everyone or reach that next breakthrough in medicine where people won't even need it[/QUOTE]
Since when do insurance companies provide medical advancements?
If anything big pharma and medical products companies will be making even MORE money as there will be 32 million new customers to treat.
More conservative spin and fear mongering that's simply nonsense.
[quote name='UncleBob']Ohh... so close. It was Obama's campaign promises were unbelievably retarded. Or, perhaps, it was just the morons who voted for him, thinking he'd actually follow through. Those who really believed in the "change" he was selling.[/QUOTE]
He did follow through...he campaigned on healthcare reform and it passed.
I'd tell you to just quit before you make yourself look even sillier but I know it would fall on deaf ears.
sure this health care thingy looks good on paper but if it comes at the cost of slowing down medical advancements, then it's not worth it, do you want to provide health care to everyone or reach that next breakthrough in medicine where people won't even need it[/QUOTE]
Since when do insurance companies provide medical advancements?
If anything big pharma and medical products companies will be making even MORE money as there will be 32 million new customers to treat.
More conservative spin and fear mongering that's simply nonsense.
[quote name='UncleBob']Ohh... so close. It was Obama's campaign promises were unbelievably retarded. Or, perhaps, it was just the morons who voted for him, thinking he'd actually follow through. Those who really believed in the "change" he was selling.[/QUOTE]
He did follow through...he campaigned on healthcare reform and it passed.
I'd tell you to just quit before you make yourself look even sillier but I know it would fall on deaf ears.
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[quote name='lawdood']He did follow through...he campaigned on healthcare reform and it passed.[/QUOTE]
Oddly enough, his health care reform he campaigned on doesn't resemble what he worked so hard to pass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AOJBiklP1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idm_cQOG-NQ&feature=related
Oddly enough, his health care reform he campaigned on doesn't resemble what he worked so hard to pass.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7AOJBiklP1Q
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Idm_cQOG-NQ&feature=related
[quote name='UncleBob']Oddly enough, his health care reform he campaigned on doesn't resemble what he worked so hard to pass.
[/QUOTE]
Because he had the audacity of hope that trying to appease Republicans would result in a bipartisan effort. And then when he does that, they stamp their feet and all vote no.
He should have just whipped it out a year ago, said suck it, and passed it on brute force.
[/QUOTE]
Because he had the audacity of hope that trying to appease Republicans would result in a bipartisan effort. And then when he does that, they stamp their feet and all vote no.
He should have just whipped it out a year ago, said suck it, and passed it on brute force.
[quote name='Strell']Because he had the audacity of hope that trying to appease Republicans would result in a bipartisan effort. And then when he does that, they stamp their feet and all vote no.
He should have just whipped it out a year ago, said suck it, and passed it on brute force.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Obama should just balls up and do whatever he wants.
But I'm not sure how you think the individual mandate has anything to do with appeasing Republicans. Aren't most Republicans against such a thing?
He should have just whipped it out a year ago, said suck it, and passed it on brute force.[/QUOTE]
I agree. Obama should just balls up and do whatever he wants.
But I'm not sure how you think the individual mandate has anything to do with appeasing Republicans. Aren't most Republicans against such a thing?
[quote name='UncleBob']I agree. Obama should just balls up and do whatever he wants.
But I'm not sure how you think the individual mandate has anything to do with appeasing Republicans. Aren't most Republicans against such a thing?[/QUOTE]
Mitt Romney wasn't when he implemented it in Massachusetts and said it was a matter of "personal responsibility." Other Republicans hailed that has a great breakthrough in health reform.
But I'm not sure how you think the individual mandate has anything to do with appeasing Republicans. Aren't most Republicans against such a thing?[/QUOTE]
Mitt Romney wasn't when he implemented it in Massachusetts and said it was a matter of "personal responsibility." Other Republicans hailed that has a great breakthrough in health reform.
depascal22
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Really Tony? Really?
lawdood said it best. Pharmaceutical, medical device, and insurance companies will make more money and (hopefully) put it into research and development.
lawdood said it best. Pharmaceutical, medical device, and insurance companies will make more money and (hopefully) put it into research and development.
speedracer
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[quote name='lawdood']Mitt Romney wasn't when he implemented it in Massachusetts and said it was a matter of "personal responsibility." Other Republicans hailed that has a great breakthrough in health reform.[/QUOTE]
And his plan was originally formulated by the Heritage Foundation. There is very little in the health care law that deviates from the Heritage document.
Damn liberal Heritage jerks.
And his plan was originally formulated by the Heritage Foundation. There is very little in the health care law that deviates from the Heritage document.
Damn liberal Heritage jerks.
mykevermin
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got a link to said heritage doc?
JolietJake
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Romney would just try to spin it as supporting the rights of states to make the decision on health care for themselves.
fatherofcaitlyn
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[quote name='JolietJake']Romney would just try to spin it as supporting the rights of states to make the decision on health care for themselves.[/QUOTE]
Jesus Christ is that Mormon's personal savior.
Buddha is this Christian's personal savior.
Jesus Christ is that Mormon's personal savior.
Buddha is this Christian's personal savior.
As to be expected (unfortunately) supporters of the bill are getting death threats etc.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34907.html
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34907.html
fatherofcaitlyn
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In for another laugh:
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7281166/
Norman Rucker said he hasn't had health insurance in almost 10 years because his employers haven't offered it.
"I'm not a person who gets sick a lot, so I didn't think I'd need any medicine," said Rucker,
http://www.wral.com/news/local/story/7281166/
Norman Rucker said he hasn't had health insurance in almost 10 years because his employers haven't offered it.
"I'm not a person who gets sick a lot, so I didn't think I'd need any medicine," said Rucker,
who racked up about $100,000 in hospital bills over that period by going to the emergency room whenever he needed care. "I'm trying to pay them off. Collection agencies call me all the time."
perdition(troy
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and bush had a movie made about his assassination when he was in office. politicians are always getting death threats.
fatherofcaitlyn
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Wouldn't it be funny if UncleBob was right?
[quote name='dmaul1114']As to be expected (unfortunately) supporters of the bill are getting death threats etc.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34907.html[/QUOTE]
Let us hope they are happy with mere threats and breaking a few windows.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34907.html[/QUOTE]
Let us hope they are happy with mere threats and breaking a few windows.
[quote name='dmaul1114']As to be expected (unfortunately) supporters of the bill are getting death threats etc.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34907.html[/QUOTE]
That's who the tea partiers are unfortunately, for the most part. Ignorant, hateful and dangerous. As I said upthread, I consider it a small miracle that no one took a shot at anyone in the District this past weekend. Sadly, with the political climate in the country right now (and yes, close to 100% of the vitriol comes from the right) it sadly seems like only a matter of time until someone does.
http://www.politico.com/news/stories/0310/34907.html[/QUOTE]
That's who the tea partiers are unfortunately, for the most part. Ignorant, hateful and dangerous. As I said upthread, I consider it a small miracle that no one took a shot at anyone in the District this past weekend. Sadly, with the political climate in the country right now (and yes, close to 100% of the vitriol comes from the right) it sadly seems like only a matter of time until someone does.
perdition(troy
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[quote name='bvharris']That's who the tea partiers are unfortunately, for the most part. Ignorant, hateful and dangerous. As I said upthread, I consider it a small miracle that no one took a shot at anyone in the District this past weekend. Sadly, with the political climate in the country right now (and yes, close to 100% of the vitriol comes from the right) it sadly seems like only a matter of time until someone does.[/QUOTE]
Why is it a small miracle? I haven't read one story yet about a tea party rally getting out of hand and people getting hurt/killed. I'm just trying to figure out why your thought train is the way it is.
Why is it a small miracle? I haven't read one story yet about a tea party rally getting out of hand and people getting hurt/killed. I'm just trying to figure out why your thought train is the way it is.
[quote name='perdition(troy']Why is it a small miracle? I haven't read one story yet about a tea party rally getting out of hand and people getting hurt/killed. I'm just trying to figure out why your thought train is the way it is.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about the general attitude of the people at these rallies. I live in Washington, they've been here for weeks and I've heard them spouting some of the most awful, hateful things you could imagine. Right or wrong (obviously I think wrong) these people are furious. And let's not forget this is basically the same set of people whose members included those who were toting guns to presidential campaign events in 2008. Proudly.
Obviously the majority of conservatives aren't tea partiers, and the majority of tea partiers wouldn't make death threats against members of Congress and their families. But some obviously would and have as you can see in that link. Again, most probably wouldn't follow through but there is no doubt in my mind that there are some who would. Can you honestly tell me that you don't think some of these crackpots would be willing to kill someone as a result of this rancor they've been whooped up into? Just see this guy.
I'm talking about the general attitude of the people at these rallies. I live in Washington, they've been here for weeks and I've heard them spouting some of the most awful, hateful things you could imagine. Right or wrong (obviously I think wrong) these people are furious. And let's not forget this is basically the same set of people whose members included those who were toting guns to presidential campaign events in 2008. Proudly.
Obviously the majority of conservatives aren't tea partiers, and the majority of tea partiers wouldn't make death threats against members of Congress and their families. But some obviously would and have as you can see in that link. Again, most probably wouldn't follow through but there is no doubt in my mind that there are some who would. Can you honestly tell me that you don't think some of these crackpots would be willing to kill someone as a result of this rancor they've been whooped up into? Just see this guy.
The proof is in the pudding:
A conservative blogger posted what he thought to be the home address of Rep. Tom Perriello, and which is actually the home of his brother, encouraging tea baggers to "stop by".
Someone did, and slashed his gas line.
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/n..._perriello_brother_under_investigation/54038/
A conservative blogger posted what he thought to be the home address of Rep. Tom Perriello, and which is actually the home of his brother, encouraging tea baggers to "stop by".
Someone did, and slashed his gas line.
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/n..._perriello_brother_under_investigation/54038/
[quote name='bvharris']The proof is in the pudding:
A conservative blogger posted what he thought to be the home address of Rep. Tom Perriello, and which is actually the home of his brother, encouraging tea baggers to "stop by".
Someone did, and slashed his gas line.
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/n..._perriello_brother_under_investigation/54038/[/QUOTE]
fair enough, but don't act like the tea partiers are the violent wacko's, as the proof can certainly be in the pudding for the other side, too. It's not breaking news to say there are wacko's on both sides.
also, before that article was linked did you try to use James von Brunn as proof that there are crazy people out there who would be willing to kill for the tea party movement? von Brunn is a 9/11 truther, I really doubt he's into the conservative idealogy
A conservative blogger posted what he thought to be the home address of Rep. Tom Perriello, and which is actually the home of his brother, encouraging tea baggers to "stop by".
Someone did, and slashed his gas line.
http://www2.dailyprogress.com/cdp/n..._perriello_brother_under_investigation/54038/[/QUOTE]
fair enough, but don't act like the tea partiers are the violent wacko's, as the proof can certainly be in the pudding for the other side, too. It's not breaking news to say there are wacko's on both sides.
also, before that article was linked did you try to use James von Brunn as proof that there are crazy people out there who would be willing to kill for the tea party movement? von Brunn is a 9/11 truther, I really doubt he's into the conservative idealogy
perdition(troy
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http://www.denverpost.com/commented/ci_13203950
And a democrat wrecked a democrat office to make republicans look bad. people do stupid things for stupid reasons, but that article still doesn't show tea party folks lashing out at other people violently.
Either way, no rally has gotten out of hand, and thats what I'm getting at. It just doesn't make sense to make a comment about no one getting shot when there is no real reason to believe anyone would. There is no track record of violence at tea party rallies.
And a democrat wrecked a democrat office to make republicans look bad. people do stupid things for stupid reasons, but that article still doesn't show tea party folks lashing out at other people violently.
Either way, no rally has gotten out of hand, and thats what I'm getting at. It just doesn't make sense to make a comment about no one getting shot when there is no real reason to believe anyone would. There is no track record of violence at tea party rallies.
Whether there are "wackos" on both sides is completely immaterial to whether the tea party movement would turn violent. I wouldn't dispute there are plenty of liberal wackos. For every Democrat trashing a Democratic office there's that moron in Pittsburgh who carved a B into her face during the election.
My point is this: The rhetoric being used at these rallies is not that of civil discourse, it is violent and hateful. And for the most part, Republican politicians (not all of them, but some) are complicit in stoking that sentiment. It's not a stretch at all to have a legitimate fear that this could turn violent, even in a limited way.
My point is this: The rhetoric being used at these rallies is not that of civil discourse, it is violent and hateful. And for the most part, Republican politicians (not all of them, but some) are complicit in stoking that sentiment. It's not a stretch at all to have a legitimate fear that this could turn violent, even in a limited way.
[quote name='bvharris']Whether there are "wackos" on both sides is completely immaterial to whether the tea party movement would turn violent. I wouldn't dispute there are plenty of liberal wackos. For every Democrat trashing a Democratic office there's that moron in Pittsburgh who carved a B into her face during the election.
My point is this: The rhetoric being used at these rallies is not that of civil discourse, it is violent and hateful. And for the most part, Republican politicians (not all of them, but some) are complicit in stoking that sentiment. It's not a stretch at all to have a legitimate fear that this could turn violent, even in a limited way.[/QUOTE]
and like I said, I'm only aware of one tea party rally that turned violent, and that is because SEIU union members attacked tea party members, not the other way around. With the media's sentiment towards the tea party movement, I'd imagine if one ever did turn violent, it would be ALL OVER the news, and I've not heard of one. But I could be wrong, I don't know.
My point is this: The rhetoric being used at these rallies is not that of civil discourse, it is violent and hateful. And for the most part, Republican politicians (not all of them, but some) are complicit in stoking that sentiment. It's not a stretch at all to have a legitimate fear that this could turn violent, even in a limited way.[/QUOTE]
and like I said, I'm only aware of one tea party rally that turned violent, and that is because SEIU union members attacked tea party members, not the other way around. With the media's sentiment towards the tea party movement, I'd imagine if one ever did turn violent, it would be ALL OVER the news, and I've not heard of one. But I could be wrong, I don't know.
[quote name='myl0r']and like I said, I'm only aware of one tea party rally that turned violent, and that is because SEIU union members attacked tea party members, not the other way around. With the media's sentiment towards the tea party movement, I'd imagine if one ever did turn violent, it would be ALL OVER the news, and I've not heard of one. But I could be wrong, I don't know.[/QUOTE]
It doesn't necessarily have to occur at a rally to be symptomatic of the movement as a whole. Whatever person slashed the propane line at Rep. Perriello's brother's house did it because a Tea Party organizer posted it the address on his blog and told people to go there. Unless you think it was a fantastic coincidence. Of course if you ask the organizers they'll say they don't condone violence, but if their rhetoric drives people to it it's just as bad. The leaders know they're doing it. Just ask Sarah Palin, who's encouraging supporters to "reload" for the fight ahead and posting images like this to her Facebook page:
I understand gun metaphors and imagery might speak to people in her base, but it all just adds up to contribute to this moving further and further away from anything resembling civil discourse.
It doesn't necessarily have to occur at a rally to be symptomatic of the movement as a whole. Whatever person slashed the propane line at Rep. Perriello's brother's house did it because a Tea Party organizer posted it the address on his blog and told people to go there. Unless you think it was a fantastic coincidence. Of course if you ask the organizers they'll say they don't condone violence, but if their rhetoric drives people to it it's just as bad. The leaders know they're doing it. Just ask Sarah Palin, who's encouraging supporters to "reload" for the fight ahead and posting images like this to her Facebook page:
I understand gun metaphors and imagery might speak to people in her base, but it all just adds up to contribute to this moving further and further away from anything resembling civil discourse.
I don't know what to say, because it seems like this is just how you want to feel. We both agree there are wackos on both sides of the spectrum, But then you said this:
[quote name='bvharris']
My point is this: The rhetoric being used at these rallies is not that of civil discourse, it is violent and hateful. And for the most part, Republican politicians (not all of them, but some) are complicit in stoking that sentiment. It's not a stretch at all to have a legitimate fear that this could turn violent, even in a limited way.[/QUOTE]
Ok, so we aren't focusing on the broad base, we are talking about what occurs at rallies turning violent, right?.....
[quote name='bvharris']It doesn't necessarily have to occur at a rally to be symptomatic of the movement as a whole. Whatever person slashed the propane line at Rep. Perriello's brother's house did it because a Tea Party organizer posted it the address on his blog and told people to go there. Unless you think it was a fantastic coincidence. Of course if you ask the organizers they'll say they don't condone violence, but if their rhetoric drives people to it it's just as bad. The leaders know they're doing it. Just ask Sarah Palin, who's encouraging supporters to "reload" for the fight ahead and posting images like this to her Facebook page:
[/QUOTE]
so which is it? are we talking about specific rallies, or the movement as a whole? Rallies have yet to turn violent. The movement crossed that threshold long ago by both sides.
[quote name='bvharris']
My point is this: The rhetoric being used at these rallies is not that of civil discourse, it is violent and hateful. And for the most part, Republican politicians (not all of them, but some) are complicit in stoking that sentiment. It's not a stretch at all to have a legitimate fear that this could turn violent, even in a limited way.[/QUOTE]
Ok, so we aren't focusing on the broad base, we are talking about what occurs at rallies turning violent, right?.....
[quote name='bvharris']It doesn't necessarily have to occur at a rally to be symptomatic of the movement as a whole. Whatever person slashed the propane line at Rep. Perriello's brother's house did it because a Tea Party organizer posted it the address on his blog and told people to go there. Unless you think it was a fantastic coincidence. Of course if you ask the organizers they'll say they don't condone violence, but if their rhetoric drives people to it it's just as bad. The leaders know they're doing it. Just ask Sarah Palin, who's encouraging supporters to "reload" for the fight ahead and posting images like this to her Facebook page:
[/QUOTE]
so which is it? are we talking about specific rallies, or the movement as a whole? Rallies have yet to turn violent. The movement crossed that threshold long ago by both sides.
[quote name='myl0r']
so which is it? are we talking about specific rallies, or the movement as a whole? Rallies have yet to turn violent. The movement crossed that threshold long ago by both sides.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about the Tea Party Movement, however you want to classify it. Perhaps I'm just bitter because my commute has been swamped by these people for the better part of two weeks now, but my general experience has been that they are angry, vile, and rude. I'd readily admit that if I was conservative myself I'd probably feel differently. Perspective is everything.
But I'm not trying to have it both ways as you suggest: The whole movement has taken on a tenor I find to be deplorable, and the rallies themselves are just one part of that. Yes, the rallies this weekend didn't turn violent, but they also featured people hurling racial and sexual slurs at members of congress. Again, I'll agree with you that this in and of itself is no worse than, say, some PETA protester calling someone a murderer and throwing red paint on them. Stuff like this goes well above and beyond simply exercising free speech, and it has no place in a civilized nation.
so which is it? are we talking about specific rallies, or the movement as a whole? Rallies have yet to turn violent. The movement crossed that threshold long ago by both sides.[/QUOTE]
I'm talking about the Tea Party Movement, however you want to classify it. Perhaps I'm just bitter because my commute has been swamped by these people for the better part of two weeks now, but my general experience has been that they are angry, vile, and rude. I'd readily admit that if I was conservative myself I'd probably feel differently. Perspective is everything.
But I'm not trying to have it both ways as you suggest: The whole movement has taken on a tenor I find to be deplorable, and the rallies themselves are just one part of that. Yes, the rallies this weekend didn't turn violent, but they also featured people hurling racial and sexual slurs at members of congress. Again, I'll agree with you that this in and of itself is no worse than, say, some PETA protester calling someone a murderer and throwing red paint on them. Stuff like this goes well above and beyond simply exercising free speech, and it has no place in a civilized nation.
[quote name='myl0r']a tea party rally got out of hand in St. Louis last year, but it wasn't because of the Tea Partiers, it was SEIU members who roughed up a black conservative man.[/QUOTE]
If you are referring the Ken Gladney thing, that didn't actually happen.
If you are referring the Ken Gladney thing, that didn't actually happen.
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you're a little late there foc, that was already mentioned a few posts up.
[quote name='myl0r']am I missing some sort of humor or sarcasm in this, or could you enlighten me?[/QUOTE]
I'm not too familiar with the incident, but from what I remember Ken Gladney's account of what happened is either gospel or completely debunked, depending on which side you ask. All I know for sure is that in the video of the incident (I'll see if I can dredge it up, I saw it a while back) he seems to be walking around uninjured complaining to the police about being attacked, and then in all subsequent photos he's in a wheelchair, which is just a tad fishy.
I'm not too familiar with the incident, but from what I remember Ken Gladney's account of what happened is either gospel or completely debunked, depending on which side you ask. All I know for sure is that in the video of the incident (I'll see if I can dredge it up, I saw it a while back) he seems to be walking around uninjured complaining to the police about being attacked, and then in all subsequent photos he's in a wheelchair, which is just a tad fishy.
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