I have a feeling we'll be seeing these two meet again in the finals, especially with the recent powerhouses declining. Miami will be at the top of its game for the next couple of years, and OKC will continue to get better given how young they still are.
Official 2011-2012 NBA Season thread
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Well...that was underwhelming. I expected a lot more from these finals.
Felt like Scotty Brooks made absolutely no adjustments from game to game.
But congrats to Lebron, he was a beast these finals. Set the tempo for the rest of his team. Role players where HUGE!!.
[quote name='Doomtime']:lol:
[/QUOTE]
LMAO, Bosh did you really need to go down on your knees? :lol:
Felt like Scotty Brooks made absolutely no adjustments from game to game.
But congrats to Lebron, he was a beast these finals. Set the tempo for the rest of his team. Role players where HUGE!!.
[quote name='Doomtime']:lol:
LMAO, Bosh did you really need to go down on your knees? :lol:
The 7th Number
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[quote name='Viol8tor']
Felt like Scotty Brooks made absolutely no adjustments from game to game.
[/QUOTE]
I agree. I think if he would have matched up with Ibaka, Durant, Harden, Sefolosha, and Westbrook it could have been better. Sefolosha seemed to do a good job on lebron or wade. Durant could have guarded battier or mike miller. Should have done that a few games ago. Game 5 there was nothing OKC could do with all those 3s raining down on them.
Felt like Scotty Brooks made absolutely no adjustments from game to game.
[/QUOTE]
I agree. I think if he would have matched up with Ibaka, Durant, Harden, Sefolosha, and Westbrook it could have been better. Sefolosha seemed to do a good job on lebron or wade. Durant could have guarded battier or mike miller. Should have done that a few games ago. Game 5 there was nothing OKC could do with all those 3s raining down on them.
bigdaddybruce44
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[quote name='Dendaman']I have a feeling we'll be seeing these two meet again in the finals, especially with the recent powerhouses declining. Miami will be at the top of its game for the next couple of years, and OKC will continue to get better given how young they still are.[/QUOTE]
I don't know. I think a lot of glaring issues with OKC were revealed in these Finals. Brooks got totally out-coached by a guy who really isn't exactly the world's greatest. The OKC supporting cast made the Miami supporting cast look great by comparison. Westbrook had his moments, but folded in some pressure situations. And worst of all, Durant was exposed as a pretty incomplete player. He couldn't guard anyone, and when his mid range game isn't working, he disappears on offense.
Of course, all that being said, it's scary to think that Durant and Westbrook are going to be 24 next season. They haven't even hit their athletic peaks yet, and they still have a lot to learn about the NBA game. No matter what, though, OKC desperately needs a better supporting cast. If Harden is off, as he was most of the series, you have 2 guys out of your 7 to 8 man rotation who are threats to score. That's awful. No matter how great they are, 2 guys can easily be guarded by 5.
I don't know. I think a lot of glaring issues with OKC were revealed in these Finals. Brooks got totally out-coached by a guy who really isn't exactly the world's greatest. The OKC supporting cast made the Miami supporting cast look great by comparison. Westbrook had his moments, but folded in some pressure situations. And worst of all, Durant was exposed as a pretty incomplete player. He couldn't guard anyone, and when his mid range game isn't working, he disappears on offense.
Of course, all that being said, it's scary to think that Durant and Westbrook are going to be 24 next season. They haven't even hit their athletic peaks yet, and they still have a lot to learn about the NBA game. No matter what, though, OKC desperately needs a better supporting cast. If Harden is off, as he was most of the series, you have 2 guys out of your 7 to 8 man rotation who are threats to score. That's awful. No matter how great they are, 2 guys can easily be guarded by 5.
The 7th Number
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[quote name='bigdaddybruce44'] No matter how great they are, 2 guys can easily be guarded by 5.[/QUOTE]
Unless they are Lebron and Wade.
Unless they are Lebron and Wade.
bigdaddybruce44
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[quote name='The 7th Number']Unless they are Lebron and Wade.[/QUOTE]
You can definitely contain Wade at this point in his career. And Lebron can be taken out of his game, if you can sway a lot of attention his way. But in this series, the Miami role players did just enough to keep the Thunder defense honest, where they could not totally and completely focus on James and Wade. The OKC role players were completely unable to do that, mostly because none of them have an offense games. Ibaka, Perkins, and Sefolosha...who all play major minutes and contribute a lot on defense...can contribute next to nothing on offense.
With the exception of Game 3, the Heat got a big offensive game out an unlikely source or role player in their wins: Battier in Game 2, Chalmers in Game 4, and Miller tonight. I am pretty sure no one outside out of the big 3 for OKC score more than 11 points in any game in this series, and a couple of those double digit performances came from Perkins and Ibaka, so might have been some garbage points underneath. There is no one outside of their big 3 who I would trust to hit a shot...ever...and frankly, after this series, I wouldn't trust Harden to do it that, either.
You can definitely contain Wade at this point in his career. And Lebron can be taken out of his game, if you can sway a lot of attention his way. But in this series, the Miami role players did just enough to keep the Thunder defense honest, where they could not totally and completely focus on James and Wade. The OKC role players were completely unable to do that, mostly because none of them have an offense games. Ibaka, Perkins, and Sefolosha...who all play major minutes and contribute a lot on defense...can contribute next to nothing on offense.
With the exception of Game 3, the Heat got a big offensive game out an unlikely source or role player in their wins: Battier in Game 2, Chalmers in Game 4, and Miller tonight. I am pretty sure no one outside out of the big 3 for OKC score more than 11 points in any game in this series, and a couple of those double digit performances came from Perkins and Ibaka, so might have been some garbage points underneath. There is no one outside of their big 3 who I would trust to hit a shot...ever...and frankly, after this series, I wouldn't trust Harden to do it that, either.
perdition(troy
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love that GIF, bosh going to his knees is just priceless. That is one man that can make any situation look extremely awkward.
http://sports.yahoo.com/news/nba--o...ayoffs.html;_ylt=AplhAZ9AUUVRfecvyOGH5Yu8vLYF
LOL and yet Scott Brooks continued to play him
also a must
LOL and yet Scott Brooks continued to play him
also a must
lordopus99
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[quote name='dafoomie']
And if he wants to end the hate, if he wants to end the shitstorm he created when he said not 3, not 4, not 5, he needs some rings.[/QUOTE]
Well there goes number 1
I know there were others in here. Now what is the excuse...
And if he wants to end the hate, if he wants to end the shitstorm he created when he said not 3, not 4, not 5, he needs some rings.[/QUOTE]
Well there goes number 1
I know there were others in here. Now what is the excuse...
bigdaddybruce44
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[quote name='advanced']He still gives Howard/Bynum fits and can defend them one on one. Not a lot of other centers can do that.[/QUOTE]
Agreed. When healthy, Perkins is a really good defensive player. I think people overlook the non-flashy players in the NBA and discount what they bring to the table. Most people agree that his absence in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals was a massive x-factor.
Problem with OKC is you have little to no offense coming from your power forward and center. Ibaka can certainly throw down a mean dunk, but that's about it.
[quote name='lordopus99']Well there goes number 1 I know there were others in here. Now what is the excuse...[/QUOTE]
Him wining a ring doesn't change the fact that he's acted like a dick the last couple of years. "The Decision" will haunt him for a long time. That's when a lot people's opinions about him changed. No amount of winning is gonna change that. And if that wasn't enough to sour people towards him, his "classy" press conference, where he insulted the "haters," saying that basically he's rich, and they aren't, so he's the big winner, certainly helped to sway even more people.
Agreed. When healthy, Perkins is a really good defensive player. I think people overlook the non-flashy players in the NBA and discount what they bring to the table. Most people agree that his absence in Game 7 of the 2010 Finals was a massive x-factor.
Problem with OKC is you have little to no offense coming from your power forward and center. Ibaka can certainly throw down a mean dunk, but that's about it.
[quote name='lordopus99']Well there goes number 1
I know there were others in here. Now what is the excuse...[/QUOTE]Him wining a ring doesn't change the fact that he's acted like a dick the last couple of years. "The Decision" will haunt him for a long time. That's when a lot people's opinions about him changed. No amount of winning is gonna change that. And if that wasn't enough to sour people towards him, his "classy" press conference, where he insulted the "haters," saying that basically he's rich, and they aren't, so he's the big winner, certainly helped to sway even more people.
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Him wining a ring doesn't change the fact that he's acted like a dick the last couple of years. "The Decision" will haunt him for a long time. That's when a lot people's opinions about him changed. No amount of winning is gonna change that. And if that wasn't enough to sour people towards him, his "classy" press conference, where he insulted the "haters," saying that basically he's rich, and they aren't, so he's the big winner, certainly helped to sway even more people.[/QUOTE]
Actually I think most people are already forgetting about The Decision. All I see is an outpour of support for LBJ now. And that press conference was misinterpreted. He was basically saying that basketball is such a small part of life, insignificant even when it comes to the more important things in life. If it gets to the point where praying LeBron James (or any hated athlete) doesn't win a championship and becomes the focal point of your life, then it is a sad life. Because there are more important things at hand (going to work, providing for your family).
Actually I think most people are already forgetting about The Decision. All I see is an outpour of support for LBJ now. And that press conference was misinterpreted. He was basically saying that basketball is such a small part of life, insignificant even when it comes to the more important things in life. If it gets to the point where praying LeBron James (or any hated athlete) doesn't win a championship and becomes the focal point of your life, then it is a sad life. Because there are more important things at hand (going to work, providing for your family).
The 7th Number
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Its still kind of unimpressive for lebron winning a title in miami. It would have been more impressive if he did it with his real team, cleveland. Its kind of a cheap way to get yourself a ring, you know, getting 3 of the NBAs top stars who are still in their prime to come together on one team, but there isnt a rule against it. So more power to them. Just not sure how their legacy will hold up against players like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Hakeem, Isaiah, etc.... players that stuck it out with their teams, and were able to get a ring the hard way. I think thats what i dont like most about the Heat. The way they came together in their prime to make a super team, instead of trying to win a title the hard way with their original teams.
bigdaddybruce44
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[quote name='Kendro']And that press conference was misinterpreted. [/QUOTE]
LOL, yeah ok...
LOL, yeah ok...
[quote name='The 7th Number']Its still kind of unimpressive for lebron winning a title in miami. It would have been more impressive if he did it with his real team, cleveland. Its kind of a cheap way to get yourself a ring, you know, getting 3 of the NBAs top stars who are still in their prime to come together on one team, but there isnt a rule against it. So more power to them. Just not sure how their legacy will hold up against players like Bird, Magic, Jordan, Duncan, Kobe, Dirk, Hakeem, Isaiah, etc.... players that stuck it out with their teams, and were able to get a ring the hard way. I think thats what i dont like most about the Heat. The way they came together in their prime to make a super team, instead of trying to win a title the hard way with their original teams.[/QUOTE]
True but how is it any different when a great GM brings in Jordan, Pippen, and Dennis Rodman on the same team with Kukoc coming off the bench?
Or a genius GM getting Kobe and Shaq on the same team. Or Detroit management surrounding Isiah with 3 hall of famers.
Is that any different than LeBron playing GM with Wade and Bosh by creating their own super team?
KG had to learn the hard way by sacrificing his prime years in Minnesota before he finally came to Boston.
True but how is it any different when a great GM brings in Jordan, Pippen, and Dennis Rodman on the same team with Kukoc coming off the bench?
Or a genius GM getting Kobe and Shaq on the same team. Or Detroit management surrounding Isiah with 3 hall of famers.
Is that any different than LeBron playing GM with Wade and Bosh by creating their own super team?
KG had to learn the hard way by sacrificing his prime years in Minnesota before he finally came to Boston.
[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']LOL, yeah ok...[/QUOTE]
Come on. Does "my life is better than everybody else and you guys suck" really fall in line with his character and everything we've seen and known about him the past 8 years? You really believe he meant it like that? For real? I mean I won't try to change your opinion, but you really believe he meant it like that?
"All the people that were rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day, they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today. They have the same personal problems they had today. I’m going to continue to live the way I want to live and continue to do the things that I want to do with me and my family and be happy with that. They can get a few days or a few months or whatever the case may be on being happy about not only myself, but the Miami Heat not accomplishing their goal. But they have to get back to the real world at some point."
Come on. Does "my life is better than everybody else and you guys suck" really fall in line with his character and everything we've seen and known about him the past 8 years? You really believe he meant it like that? For real? I mean I won't try to change your opinion, but you really believe he meant it like that?
"All the people that were rooting on me to fail, at the end of the day, they have to wake up tomorrow and have the same life that they had before they woke up today. They have the same personal problems they had today. I’m going to continue to live the way I want to live and continue to do the things that I want to do with me and my family and be happy with that. They can get a few days or a few months or whatever the case may be on being happy about not only myself, but the Miami Heat not accomplishing their goal. But they have to get back to the real world at some point."
perdition(troy
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confoosious
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it's hard to interpret that any other way.
Did LeBron go out and rap at the celebration last night? I'd like to hear "Hey, Gilbert, tell me how my ass tastes" from him.
I have nothing better to add to the conversation. I just thought that in my head and had a laugh. Thought it might be funny to you guys. Draft is next week, right? Then the Olympics. Fun summer.
Edit: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...-thunder-season-classiest-222344095--nba.html
This kind of flew under the radar. Kind of nice to see something like that in pro sports.
I have nothing better to add to the conversation. I just thought that in my head and had a laugh. Thought it might be funny to you guys. Draft is next week, right? Then the Olympics. Fun summer.
Edit: http://sports.yahoo.com/blogs/nba-b...-thunder-season-classiest-222344095--nba.html
This kind of flew under the radar. Kind of nice to see something like that in pro sports.
(Here is where Soodmeg comes in and challenges me on the Rondo/KG thing.)
BigSpoonyBard
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[quote name='Kendro']Come on. Does "my life is better than everybody else and you guys suck" really fall in line with his character and everything we've seen and known about him the past 8 years? "[/QUOTE]
Ummm...yes, it happens to fall in line exactly? This is a guy who has been a brand since before he hit puberty. He's very aware of how awesome his life is.
Ummm...yes, it happens to fall in line exactly? This is a guy who has been a brand since before he hit puberty. He's very aware of how awesome his life is.
[quote name='Kendro']True but how is it any different when a great GM brings in Jordan, Pippen, and Dennis Rodman on the same team with Kukoc coming off the bench?
Or a genius GM getting Kobe and Shaq on the same team. Or Detroit management surrounding Isiah with 3 hall of famers.
Is that any different than LeBron playing GM with Wade and Bosh by creating their own super team?
KG had to learn the hard way by sacrificing his prime years in Minnesota before he finally came to Boston.[/QUOTE]
Haven't you heard? Those guys get free passes because they're not "douches". Who cares, a ring is a ring.
He's no longer the ringless Queen James.
Or a genius GM getting Kobe and Shaq on the same team. Or Detroit management surrounding Isiah with 3 hall of famers.
Is that any different than LeBron playing GM with Wade and Bosh by creating their own super team?
KG had to learn the hard way by sacrificing his prime years in Minnesota before he finally came to Boston.[/QUOTE]
Haven't you heard? Those guys get free passes because they're not "douches". Who cares, a ring is a ring.
He's no longer the ringless Queen James.
Feeding the Abscess
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[quote name='bigdaddybruce44']Him wining a ring doesn't change the fact that he's acted like a dick the last couple of years. "The Decision" will haunt him for a long time. That's when a lot people's opinions about him changed. No amount of winning is gonna change that. And if that wasn't enough to sour people towards him, his "classy" press conference, where he insulted the "haters," saying that basically he's rich, and they aren't, so he's the big winner, certainly helped to sway even more people.[/QUOTE]
Damn, man. The dude donated $6 million to charity with The Decision. Wish less dickish athletes/celebrities did that sort of shit more regularly.
Damn, man. The dude donated $6 million to charity with The Decision. Wish less dickish athletes/celebrities did that sort of shit more regularly.
[quote name='The 7th Number']I think thats what i dont like most about the Heat. The way they came together in their prime to make a super team, instead of trying to win a title the hard way with their original teams.[/QUOTE]
So you're saying that they didn't have a hard time winning with a limited bench talent and lack of traditional team chemistry?
I love how people use the term "not winning it the hard way" when it wasn't even a cakewalk for the Heat. People fail to realize that the Heat are sacrificing team depth by stacking their resources into 3 players. If one of the 3 gets hurt (Bosh) or is having an off night (Wade) it's extremely difficult to win games.
How is it any different than when Shaq went to the Lakers or when KG demanded a trade (thus forming the Big 3 with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in Boston)? Lebron already stayed with the Cavs for 8 yrs...
The Heat may have been arrogant for their initial celebration party when they first joined together, but even they will admit now that winning a championship is extremely difficult and that there is no way in hell they are going to win 3,4,5 championships.
Would Jordan have won multiple rings without Pippen? Hell no. James did what the Cleveland front office couldn't do.
So you're saying that they didn't have a hard time winning with a limited bench talent and lack of traditional team chemistry?
I love how people use the term "not winning it the hard way" when it wasn't even a cakewalk for the Heat. People fail to realize that the Heat are sacrificing team depth by stacking their resources into 3 players. If one of the 3 gets hurt (Bosh) or is having an off night (Wade) it's extremely difficult to win games.
How is it any different than when Shaq went to the Lakers or when KG demanded a trade (thus forming the Big 3 with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in Boston)? Lebron already stayed with the Cavs for 8 yrs...
The Heat may have been arrogant for their initial celebration party when they first joined together, but even they will admit now that winning a championship is extremely difficult and that there is no way in hell they are going to win 3,4,5 championships.
Would Jordan have won multiple rings without Pippen? Hell no. James did what the Cleveland front office couldn't do.
[quote name='antlp89']
How is it any different than when Shaq went to the Lakers or when KG demanded a trade (thus forming the Big 3 with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in Boston)? Lebron already stayed with the Cavs for 8 yrs...
[/QUOTE]
Kevin Garnett never demanded a trade. McHale and the Timberwolves wanted to start the rebuilding process and they used to him to get a promising young big (Al Jefferson) and a bunch of parts with two first round picks.
How is it any different than when Shaq went to the Lakers or when KG demanded a trade (thus forming the Big 3 with Ray Allen and Paul Pierce in Boston)? Lebron already stayed with the Cavs for 8 yrs...
[/QUOTE]
Kevin Garnett never demanded a trade. McHale and the Timberwolves wanted to start the rebuilding process and they used to him to get a promising young big (Al Jefferson) and a bunch of parts with two first round picks.
The 7th Number
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When Shaq went to LA it wasnt to play with 2 other awesome players in their prime. Kobe was a rookie, the best players they had were eddie jones, elden campbell, and van exel. I guess you can say Shaq got lucky that Kobe turned out to be so great, and also Lakers had depth.
Im not sure why Shaq left orlando, more money, didnt like playing with penny hardaway, or hated brian hill. But he already had a good team with him, penny, anderson, scott, grant. I dont think his motives to move to LA was the same as Lebron or Bosh. Hell Shaq and Kobe had to do it by themselves. They didnt have that 3rd superstar in his prime. They did have good depth though.
Boston had to trade players to get Ray Allen, a future talent like Jeff Green, which at the time was a top 5 nba draft pick. Delonte West, and Wally Szczerbiak. They gave up a young star in Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes, Sabatian Telfair, and 2 first round draft picks to get Garnett. Boston sure gave up a lot to get Paul Pierce some veteran help. Fortunately for them it worked for at least 1 year, as they won the championship.
How is that different? Well boston built their team by trading young players with potential, and draft picks to get those experienced players. They risked their future talent to win now. The Miami Heat just were lucky that James and Bosh wanted to sign with the Heat to play with Wade. They did nothing to build that team on their own, except sign as many veteran guys that would play for peanuts just for a shot to win a ring. But the worst part is 3 superstars in their prime knowingly came together to try to win a ring because they couldnt do it with their former teams.
Would Jordan win a championship without Pippen? Maybe not, maybe not even without Horace Grant. But the bulls traded for pippen before he was a star. I also dont believe that he is as good as Wade in his prime. Wade was able to win a title without Lebron and Bosh, even if he had help from Shaq. But again the Heat gave up Caron Butler, Brian Grant, Lamar Odom, and a 1st round pick to get Shaq from LA. Also Shaq and Wade were the top two players, everyone else could be called role players.
I dont really think its clevelands front offices fault. They did bring in players over the years to help lebron. Not anyone as good as bosh or wade in their prime, but who is going to give those kinds of players up without a player demanding a trade? He had quality depth and couldnt get it done. So he went with bosh to the heat, where he knew there wouldnt be much depth, but 3 superstars in their prime, thats hard enough to guard.
As you can see their is a big difference between how Shaq won a title in LA, Boston traded all their young potential to get vets, and how Miami signed 2 guys in their prime to go along with Wade and gave up nothing in return. Its not even about how Miami gave up nothing, just the idea that 3 guys in their prime came together to win a championship because 2 of them couldnt get it done with their own teams. They ran when it got too hard. Id give them a pass if they tried over the course of their careers to win a title with their teams, but then joined a team near the end. But in their prime, really? You didnt see Jordan, Ewing, and Stockton all form a team.
Im not sure why Shaq left orlando, more money, didnt like playing with penny hardaway, or hated brian hill. But he already had a good team with him, penny, anderson, scott, grant. I dont think his motives to move to LA was the same as Lebron or Bosh. Hell Shaq and Kobe had to do it by themselves. They didnt have that 3rd superstar in his prime. They did have good depth though.
Boston had to trade players to get Ray Allen, a future talent like Jeff Green, which at the time was a top 5 nba draft pick. Delonte West, and Wally Szczerbiak. They gave up a young star in Al Jefferson, Gerald Green, Ryan Gomes, Sabatian Telfair, and 2 first round draft picks to get Garnett. Boston sure gave up a lot to get Paul Pierce some veteran help. Fortunately for them it worked for at least 1 year, as they won the championship.
How is that different? Well boston built their team by trading young players with potential, and draft picks to get those experienced players. They risked their future talent to win now. The Miami Heat just were lucky that James and Bosh wanted to sign with the Heat to play with Wade. They did nothing to build that team on their own, except sign as many veteran guys that would play for peanuts just for a shot to win a ring. But the worst part is 3 superstars in their prime knowingly came together to try to win a ring because they couldnt do it with their former teams.
Would Jordan win a championship without Pippen? Maybe not, maybe not even without Horace Grant. But the bulls traded for pippen before he was a star. I also dont believe that he is as good as Wade in his prime. Wade was able to win a title without Lebron and Bosh, even if he had help from Shaq. But again the Heat gave up Caron Butler, Brian Grant, Lamar Odom, and a 1st round pick to get Shaq from LA. Also Shaq and Wade were the top two players, everyone else could be called role players.
I dont really think its clevelands front offices fault. They did bring in players over the years to help lebron. Not anyone as good as bosh or wade in their prime, but who is going to give those kinds of players up without a player demanding a trade? He had quality depth and couldnt get it done. So he went with bosh to the heat, where he knew there wouldnt be much depth, but 3 superstars in their prime, thats hard enough to guard.
As you can see their is a big difference between how Shaq won a title in LA, Boston traded all their young potential to get vets, and how Miami signed 2 guys in their prime to go along with Wade and gave up nothing in return. Its not even about how Miami gave up nothing, just the idea that 3 guys in their prime came together to win a championship because 2 of them couldnt get it done with their own teams. They ran when it got too hard. Id give them a pass if they tried over the course of their careers to win a title with their teams, but then joined a team near the end. But in their prime, really? You didnt see Jordan, Ewing, and Stockton all form a team.
Malone certainly did, and so did Gary Payton, both hall of famers. Olajuwon, Barkley, and Clyde did the same in Houston. Five of the greatest players in the history of the game.
And Kobe was ready to leave LA in 2007. I still remember his interview with Stephen A. Smith on his radio show where he said he was leaving and there was nothing LA could do about it (though he did backtrack a bit after cooling down).
The point is, if you only have a 10 year window in winning a championship (basically an athlete's prime years) and by year 6 or 7 shit ain't happening, I can see why players can get desperate.
Imagine graduating from college and still making minimum wage at age 35, you wouldn't try to make shit happen?
And Kobe was ready to leave LA in 2007. I still remember his interview with Stephen A. Smith on his radio show where he said he was leaving and there was nothing LA could do about it (though he did backtrack a bit after cooling down).
The point is, if you only have a 10 year window in winning a championship (basically an athlete's prime years) and by year 6 or 7 shit ain't happening, I can see why players can get desperate.
Imagine graduating from college and still making minimum wage at age 35, you wouldn't try to make shit happen?
[quote name='antlp89']Would Jordan have won multiple rings without Pippen? Hell no. James did what the Cleveland front office couldn't do. [/QUOTE]
I see this statement a lot but I think people fail to realize how much a role LeBrons lack of commitment played in their inability to surround him with proven talent. No one wanted to commit long term to Cleveland because they didn't want to be stuck here if (when) he decided to bolt. That said, I don't let the FO off the hook at all.. obviously someone had the vision, balls, and bravado to pull of talent acquisition like Pat Riley and our frustration is that it wasn't us.
At the end of the day, I understand why LeBron went, wish he hadn't done it on TV but ultimately wish this city would stop with the relentless pity party we like to shower ourselves with. It DOES make us look like a jealous ex the way we carry on and it's rather embarrassing.
I see this statement a lot but I think people fail to realize how much a role LeBrons lack of commitment played in their inability to surround him with proven talent. No one wanted to commit long term to Cleveland because they didn't want to be stuck here if (when) he decided to bolt. That said, I don't let the FO off the hook at all.. obviously someone had the vision, balls, and bravado to pull of talent acquisition like Pat Riley and our frustration is that it wasn't us.
At the end of the day, I understand why LeBron went, wish he hadn't done it on TV but ultimately wish this city would stop with the relentless pity party we like to shower ourselves with. It DOES make us look like a jealous ex the way we carry on and it's rather embarrassing.
[quote name='The 7th Number']
I dont really think its clevelands front offices fault. They did bring in players over the years to help lebron. He had quality depth and couldnt get it done. [/QUOTE]
Larry Hughes? Eric Snow? Drew Gooden? Flopmaster Varejao? Sasha Pavlovic? Daniel Gibson? Delonte West? A withered Ben Wallace? Past his prime Szczerbiak? Fat Shaq? Anthony Parker? Donyell Marshall?
Jamison and Williams happened within his last two or three years there I believe. Mo isn't a legitimate second scoring option.
I don't see quality depth there. I see scrubs that signed with Cleveland and had their numbers boosted because Lebron carried them.
Lebron had every right to leave, he just did it the wrong way.
I dont really think its clevelands front offices fault. They did bring in players over the years to help lebron. He had quality depth and couldnt get it done. [/QUOTE]
Larry Hughes? Eric Snow? Drew Gooden? Flopmaster Varejao? Sasha Pavlovic? Daniel Gibson? Delonte West? A withered Ben Wallace? Past his prime Szczerbiak? Fat Shaq? Anthony Parker? Donyell Marshall?
Jamison and Williams happened within his last two or three years there I believe. Mo isn't a legitimate second scoring option.
I don't see quality depth there. I see scrubs that signed with Cleveland and had their numbers boosted because Lebron carried them.
Lebron had every right to leave, he just did it the wrong way.
lordopus99
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[quote name='The 7th Number']When Shaq went to LA it wasnt to play with 2 other awesome players in their prime. Kobe was a rookie, the best players they had were eddie jones, elden campbell, and van exel. I guess you can say Shaq got lucky that Kobe turned out to be so great, and also Lakers had depth.
Im not sure why Shaq left orlando, more money, didnt like playing with penny hardaway, or hated brian hill. But he already had a good team with him, penny, anderson, scott, grant. I dont think his motives to move to LA was the same as Lebron or Bosh. Hell Shaq and Kobe had to do it by themselves. They didnt have that 3rd superstar in his prime. They did have good depth though.[/quote]
Shaq went to LA to be a hip hop star :lol:. Hence, Shaq-Fu. I don't believe anyone called that LA team a big 3... Shaq in LA was unstoppable. He was leagues above the next quality big. The point that user made was Shaq walked just like Lebron walked.
Again as I mentioned a while back, the Heat are exactly like the Celtics before them. The only difference was James and Wade being top 5 players, where the Celtics players were just top 25.
Your example of prime... Back then, there was more team loyalty. It was a team game, not a superstar game. Guys paid for it... Barkely never got his ring. Dominque never got his. Stockton never got his. I could go on. Lebron took it in his own hands (like Bosh) to not be a statistic, especially since most people judge greatness by your rings.
Im not sure why Shaq left orlando, more money, didnt like playing with penny hardaway, or hated brian hill. But he already had a good team with him, penny, anderson, scott, grant. I dont think his motives to move to LA was the same as Lebron or Bosh. Hell Shaq and Kobe had to do it by themselves. They didnt have that 3rd superstar in his prime. They did have good depth though.[/quote]
Shaq went to LA to be a hip hop star :lol:. Hence, Shaq-Fu. I don't believe anyone called that LA team a big 3... Shaq in LA was unstoppable. He was leagues above the next quality big. The point that user made was Shaq walked just like Lebron walked.
Thanks for the history lesson... What you don't remember is that all 3 of those players asked to play together on Pierce's team, who had cap space for them. KG expressed a desire to move from Minn since they couldn't get him pieces to make them a contender. He wanted a ring. Ray Allen wanted a ring himself. Thus, this union.
How did Miami not give up something... The summer before the signings, they let go of alot of personnel (via trade or not offering them at end of contract)... bye young Michael Beasley, bye Jermaine O'Neal, bye Dorrell Wright.
Again as I mentioned a while back, the Heat are exactly like the Celtics before them. The only difference was James and Wade being top 5 players, where the Celtics players were just top 25.
Your example of prime... Back then, there was more team loyalty. It was a team game, not a superstar game. Guys paid for it... Barkely never got his ring. Dominque never got his. Stockton never got his. I could go on. Lebron took it in his own hands (like Bosh) to not be a statistic, especially since most people judge greatness by your rings.
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Shaq went to la to be an entertainer. Movies and music are easier to be in when you are closer to Hollywood.
People act like Cleveland could snap their fingers and somehow land a superstar at will to pair up with James when they had terrible assets as it is. They could have had Amare but James wanted Jamison LOL.
also Lmao @ what miami had to "give up"
Beasley? Sure is beasting down there in Minny.
Dorrell? lolwarriors.
Jermaine "glass knees" Oneal? rotf
also Lmao @ what miami had to "give up"
Beasley? Sure is beasting down there in Minny.
Dorrell? lolwarriors.
Jermaine "glass knees" Oneal? rotf
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[quote name='lordopus99']Thanks for the history lesson... What you don't remember is that all 3 of those players asked to play together on Pierce's team, who had cap space for them. KG expressed a desire to move from Minn since they couldn't get him pieces to make them a contender. He wanted a ring. Ray Allen wanted a ring himself. Thus, this union. [/QUOTE]
KG had no intention of going to Boston, he wanted to go to the Lakers to play with Kobe. The Celtics made a better trade offer, and when KG wouldn't go, they traded for Ray Allen just to convince him that they were for real. They weren't originally planning to do that, but they still had the assets to make both deals due to years of drafting and development.
Plan A was Kevin Durant but the ping pong balls once again didn't go in their favor. Unlike when the Celtics missed out on Tim Duncan, they had a great plan B.
KG had no intention of going to Boston, he wanted to go to the Lakers to play with Kobe. The Celtics made a better trade offer, and when KG wouldn't go, they traded for Ray Allen just to convince him that they were for real. They weren't originally planning to do that, but they still had the assets to make both deals due to years of drafting and development.
Plan A was Kevin Durant but the ping pong balls once again didn't go in their favor. Unlike when the Celtics missed out on Tim Duncan, they had a great plan B.
lordopus99
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[quote name='renique46']People act like Cleveland could snap their fingers and somehow land a superstar at will to pair up with James when they had terrible assets as it is. They could have had Amare but James wanted Jamison LOL.
also Lmao @ what miami had to "give up"
Beasley? Sure is beasting down there in Minny.
Dorrell? lolwarriors.
Jermaine "glass knees" Oneal? rotf[/QUOTE]
Amare "glass hurts" Staudamire. rotf. Sure is beasting up there in NY. lolknicks. Hurling gay slurs at fans.
Seriously, what are your thoughts on the guys Boston gave up (minus Jefferson)?
also Lmao @ what miami had to "give up"
Beasley? Sure is beasting down there in Minny.
Dorrell? lolwarriors.
Jermaine "glass knees" Oneal? rotf[/QUOTE]
Amare "glass hurts" Staudamire. rotf. Sure is beasting up there in NY. lolknicks. Hurling gay slurs at fans.
Seriously, what are your thoughts on the guys Boston gave up (minus Jefferson)?
[quote name='lordopus99']
Thanks for the history lesson... What you don't remember is that all 3 of those players asked to play together on Pierce's team, who had cap space for them. KG expressed a desire to move from Minn since they couldn't get him pieces to make them a contender. He wanted a ring. Ray Allen wanted a ring himself. Thus, this union.
[/QUOTE]
Mind showing proof for your work here?
[quote name='lordopus99']
Seriously, what are your thoughts on the guys Boston gave up (minus Jefferson)?[/QUOTE]
You can't cherry pick a trade like this. Jefferson was a young big with potential and that's what the trade was focused on for the Timberwolves who were headed into a rebuild. Thats what you do when you're rebuilding, a la Portland with Wallace for a pick this past season. The others were assets that they could either try to bring up to their potential or that they could trade. The idea is that they got a quality young big man on his way up for a guy on his way down.
[quote name='dafoomie']KG had no intention of going to Boston, he wanted to go to the Lakers to play with Kobe. The Celtics made a better trade offer, and when KG wouldn't go, they traded for Ray Allen just to convince him that they were for real. They weren't originally planning to do that, but they still had the assets to make both deals due to years of drafting and development.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. The trade the Lakers made them probably included a lot of the players involved in the Gasol trade. Jefferson, at that point in his career, had a better outlook than Marc Gasol, at that point in his career.
Thanks for the history lesson... What you don't remember is that all 3 of those players asked to play together on Pierce's team, who had cap space for them. KG expressed a desire to move from Minn since they couldn't get him pieces to make them a contender. He wanted a ring. Ray Allen wanted a ring himself. Thus, this union.
[/QUOTE]
Mind showing proof for your work here?
[quote name='lordopus99']
Seriously, what are your thoughts on the guys Boston gave up (minus Jefferson)?[/QUOTE]
You can't cherry pick a trade like this. Jefferson was a young big with potential and that's what the trade was focused on for the Timberwolves who were headed into a rebuild. Thats what you do when you're rebuilding, a la Portland with Wallace for a pick this past season. The others were assets that they could either try to bring up to their potential or that they could trade. The idea is that they got a quality young big man on his way up for a guy on his way down.
[quote name='dafoomie']KG had no intention of going to Boston, he wanted to go to the Lakers to play with Kobe. The Celtics made a better trade offer, and when KG wouldn't go, they traded for Ray Allen just to convince him that they were for real. They weren't originally planning to do that, but they still had the assets to make both deals due to years of drafting and development.
[/QUOTE]
Exactly. The trade the Lakers made them probably included a lot of the players involved in the Gasol trade. Jefferson, at that point in his career, had a better outlook than Marc Gasol, at that point in his career.
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I love how people hate on Lebron for going to Miami. No free agent can change teams ever thats the new rule I guess.
KG originally didnt want to go to Boston but after getting Ray Ray he knew they were for real. Quality over quantity should have been Minnesota's priority. Jefferson was the piece, but he wasnt a cant miss. The #5 pick doesnt equal Ray Allen either.
KG originally didnt want to go to Boston but after getting Ray Ray he knew they were for real. Quality over quantity should have been Minnesota's priority. Jefferson was the piece, but he wasnt a cant miss. The #5 pick doesnt equal Ray Allen either.
pitfallharry219
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Garnett had to get out of Minnesota and look for some help in winning a title. He wasn't winning anything there by himself, ever. It took him EIGHT tries before he got out of the first round of the playoffs.
[quote name='merchie89']I love how people hate on Lebron for going to Miami. No free agent can change teams ever thats the new rule I guess.
KG originally didnt want to go to Boston but after getting Ray Ray he knew they were for real. Quality over quantity should have been Minnesota's priority. Jefferson was the piece, but he wasnt a cant miss. The #5 pick doesnt equal Ray Allen either.[/QUOTE]
Again, they were on the downside, or going to be near there sooner than later, of their careers and were going to be on rebuilding teams. Teams that are rebuilding are looking for prospects and cap space. KG and Allen weren't in their plans. Everybody here is acting like KG, Pierce and Allen got together a few years prior and hashed all this out and planned their respective exits from their teams to team up. They didn't.
KG was traded for a young promising big man, an expiring contract, a few pieces and 2 first round draft picks (one of which was Minny's that would be a high pick due to the rebuilding and all).
Allen was traded for a solid backup point guard and the #5 pick in that years draft. Mind you, this was a Ray Allen who was coming off two ankle surgeries.
What does all this mean? Simply put, how you value the pieces in any trade doesn't matter. The only people it matters to are the GM's of the respective teams involved in said movements. They must have valued the pieces to make the move. OKC has done pretty good for themselves since the trade, so it wasn't like they were screwed over or anything by it (unlike the Wolves).
In current day news, the Bulls are reportedly thinking of trading Luol Deng or Joakim Noah for a lottery pick in the upcoming draft. Kind of nuts for a team that only bowed out of the playoffs due to an ACL tear.
KG originally didnt want to go to Boston but after getting Ray Ray he knew they were for real. Quality over quantity should have been Minnesota's priority. Jefferson was the piece, but he wasnt a cant miss. The #5 pick doesnt equal Ray Allen either.[/QUOTE]
Again, they were on the downside, or going to be near there sooner than later, of their careers and were going to be on rebuilding teams. Teams that are rebuilding are looking for prospects and cap space. KG and Allen weren't in their plans. Everybody here is acting like KG, Pierce and Allen got together a few years prior and hashed all this out and planned their respective exits from their teams to team up. They didn't.
KG was traded for a young promising big man, an expiring contract, a few pieces and 2 first round draft picks (one of which was Minny's that would be a high pick due to the rebuilding and all).
Allen was traded for a solid backup point guard and the #5 pick in that years draft. Mind you, this was a Ray Allen who was coming off two ankle surgeries.
Note: Meanwhile, Cleveland and Toronto got trade exceptions and second round draft picks for LeBron and Bosh leaving. You know how every talking head says you should try to get something for them before they leave? That's why you do it.
What does all this mean? Simply put, how you value the pieces in any trade doesn't matter. The only people it matters to are the GM's of the respective teams involved in said movements. They must have valued the pieces to make the move. OKC has done pretty good for themselves since the trade, so it wasn't like they were screwed over or anything by it (unlike the Wolves).
Also, I, for one, don't hate LeBron because he signed with Miami, or even because he went to go play with two top level players. I hate LeBron due to the way he did it. It was classless. To go on national television to announce it was one thing [Wade and Bosh did it too], but to not tell the team you're leaving before hand and allowing them to hear the news with everyone else? It's classless. I know he was on a contract and that he fulfilled it, but that doesn't really matter to me. I've been in the same situation [a lot smaller contract, obviously, but on a contract nonetheless] at a younger age [20] and at the end of it, I let my employer know I wouldn't be seeking a new one and that I had found employment elsewhere. Why couldn't LeBron? Because he's a diva? Because he's "The King"?
Naw, that don't fly with me.
Naw, that don't fly with me.
In current day news, the Bulls are reportedly thinking of trading Luol Deng or Joakim Noah for a lottery pick in the upcoming draft. Kind of nuts for a team that only bowed out of the playoffs due to an ACL tear.
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[quote name='advanced']
In current day news, the Bulls are reportedly thinking of trading Luol Deng or Joakim Noah for a lottery pick in the upcoming draft. Kind of nuts for a team that only bowed out of the playoffs due to an ACL tear.[/QUOTE]
They are doing it for salary reason. They need cap space to resign Asik and Gibson. Their real mistake was signing Boozer to that awful contract.
In current day news, the Bulls are reportedly thinking of trading Luol Deng or Joakim Noah for a lottery pick in the upcoming draft. Kind of nuts for a team that only bowed out of the playoffs due to an ACL tear.[/QUOTE]
They are doing it for salary reason. They need cap space to resign Asik and Gibson. Their real mistake was signing Boozer to that awful contract.
[quote name='62t']They are doing it for salary reason. They need cap space to resign Asik and Gibson. Their real mistake was signing Boozer to that awful contract.[/QUOTE]
I get why. Asik will demand a decent sized contract on the market and they'll have to match it. Someone could do it just to make them overspend a bit like the Warriors with DeAndre Jordan and the Clippers.
I just don't see why they wouldn't amnesty Boozer. He's only averaged 16/9 with the team and he has the biggest contract on the team. I didn't watch a lot of Bull basketball this season but is he an important member of the offense (knowing that he's somewhat of a liability on defense)? Is losing Deng or Noah worth it? Or is it because of the rotation they have set that they want to keep (Boozer/Noah for starting/offense and Asik/Gibson for closing/defense)?
I've always thought Deng was underrated, personally. It'll be sad to see him go play for a perennial lottery team like the Warriors.
I get why. Asik will demand a decent sized contract on the market and they'll have to match it. Someone could do it just to make them overspend a bit like the Warriors with DeAndre Jordan and the Clippers.
I just don't see why they wouldn't amnesty Boozer. He's only averaged 16/9 with the team and he has the biggest contract on the team. I didn't watch a lot of Bull basketball this season but is he an important member of the offense (knowing that he's somewhat of a liability on defense)? Is losing Deng or Noah worth it? Or is it because of the rotation they have set that they want to keep (Boozer/Noah for starting/offense and Asik/Gibson for closing/defense)?
I've always thought Deng was underrated, personally. It'll be sad to see him go play for a perennial lottery team like the Warriors.
Habbler
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Loul Deng is going to play for Sudan in the Olympics against the teams wishes. His wrist is still messed up and he can't have surgery until after the games are over which means he will be sitting and recovering longer than the organization wants. Loul is amazing and I wish we kept him, but he is venturing into that liability category.
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[quote name='Habbler']Loul Deng is going to play for Sudan in the Olympics against the teams wishes. His wrist is still messed up and he can't have surgery until after the games are over which means he will be sitting and recovering longer than the organization wants. Loul is amazing and I wish we kept him, but he is venturing into that liability category.[/QUOTE]
England not Sudan.
England not Sudan.
IMO, the difference between Jordan and LeBron is the perception that Jordan made Pippen into a HOF player (he might have gotten there anyway - who knows) whereas D.Wade was already a huge star. All great teams need more than one piece to the puzzle to win championships. I think in LeBron's case it is all a matter of public perception even though teaming up superstars isn't new. As a Knicks fan I absolutely hate the Heat but LeBron is effing awesome to watch. I hope Durant pushes him for the next 10 years.
bread's done