Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero Riles Families of 9/11 Victims

I really don't know if a mosque should be built there. Granted, I dont agree that building a mosque is like "painting a swastika at a Holocaust memorial," but I'm more concerned for the safety of the people who would attend. New Yorkers are also considered to be the most aggressive people in the US..
 
Immediately, the ADL's stance is weird to me because the only reason they're objecting to it is because it's a MUSLIM house of worship.

That's defamation.
 
I fear more for the safety of the Muslims than the whole principle that building a mosque is like spitting in the faces of the 9/11 victims. People need to realize that all Muslims do not condone acts of violence. I have friends who frown upon those that are a disgrace to their religion.
 
[quote name='dustdust']I fear more for the safety of the Muslims[/QUOTE]

capitulating to the expectation of violent, criminal potential is inherently a curtailment of freedom.
 
I heard this mosque was public, and had pools and stuff.

If there was a Muslim version of the YMCA closer to my place then the other rec centers, I'd be all over that shit.
 
[quote name='panzerfaust']I heard this mosque was public, and had pools and stuff.

If there was a Muslim version of the YMCA closer to my place then the other rec centers, I'd be all over that shit.[/QUOTE]
Y- Flem - C - A

Come down to the Y - Flem - C - Aaayaa.
 
I suppose, to put things in perspective, we need to look at what's going on in other countries.

Here, we have a case of (mostly Christian) people getting upset over a group of Muslims building a place of worship atop the ruins of the 9/11 attacks and naming it after a Spanish Christian community that was slaughtered by Muslims and where they literally built a mosque out of the rubble of from the Christian church they destroyed.

On the other hand, in Afghanistan, we have this:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=1116150

Taliban terrorists have declared they shot and killed a team of missionaries, including six Americans, because they were 'preaching Christianity.'

Ten members of a medical team, including six Americans, were shot and killed by the Islamic terrorists as they were returning from providing eye treatment and other health care in remote villages of northern Afghanistan, a spokesman for the team said Saturday.
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Looks like there are worse things than protesting that could be done.

Also, I'm amused by all the people who crap on any ideas of religion or organized religion, but are ready to stand up and fight for this mosque. ;)
 
I swear that having Bob here lowers the collective IQ of this entire section of the forum. He claims to "get it", yet when he makes stupid comments like those above, it becomes painfully obvious that he doesn't.

You don't want to understand Bob, you don't want to learn, because learnin' is bad mmmkay. Back to the ignore list with you.
 
[quote name='Clak']I swear that having Bob here lowers the collective IQ of this entire section of the forum. He claims to "get it", yet when he makes stupid comments like those above, it becomes painfully obvious that he doesn't.

You don't want to understand Bob, you don't want to learn, because learnin' is bad mmmkay. Back to the ignore list with you.[/QUOTE]

Why'd you ever take me off?
All you're interested in is throwing around insults with those who don't agree with you. You fit in so well with so many members of this forum.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I suppose, to put things in perspective, we need to look at what's going on in other countries.

Here, we have a case of (mostly Christian) people getting upset over a group of Muslims building a place of worship atop the ruins of the 9/11 attacks and naming it after a Spanish Christian community that was slaughtered by Muslims and where they literally built a mosque out of the rubble of from the Christian church they destroyed.

On the other hand, in Afghanistan, we have this:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=1116150



Looks like there are worse things than protesting that could be done.

Also, I'm amused by all the people who crap on any ideas of religion or organized religion, but are ready to stand up and fight for this mosque. ;)[/QUOTE]I suppose you have an excellent point. If you want to lower our standards of religious freedom to the ones embraced by the Taliban.

Secondarily, are you referring to the Great Mosque of Cordoba? It's history isn't quite as bloody as you claim. Seventy years after the conquest, the Emir bought the church, and converted it into a Mosque. When King Ferdinand took back the land six hundred years later, he forcibly converted it back to a church.

Naming it the "Cordoba House" is no more incendiary than the dozens of Christian organizations (see The Order of Saint John of Jerusalem) named for towns conquered and populations massacred by Christians in the name of their God.

I'm not the biggest fan of Islam, and I don't think that's a surprise to anyone here. However, if freedom of religion is going to mean anything, we have to give due process to all religions.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I suppose, to put things in perspective, we need to look at what's going on in other countries.[/quote]

Nope.

[quote name='UncleBob']Looks like there are worse things than protesting that could be done.[/quote]

Duh.

[quote name='UncleBob']Also, I'm amused by all the people who crap on any ideas of religion or organized religion, but are ready to stand up and fight for this mosque. ;)[/QUOTE]

Right, it's very confusing.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I suppose, to put things in perspective, we need to look at what's going on in other countries.

Here, we have a case of (mostly Christian) people getting upset over a group of Muslims building a place of worship atop the ruins of the 9/11 attacks and naming it after a Spanish Christian community that was slaughtered by Muslims and where they literally built a mosque out of the rubble of from the Christian church they destroyed.

On the other hand, in Afghanistan, we have this:
http://www.onenewsnow.com/Church/Default.aspx?id=1116150



Looks like there are worse things than protesting that could be done.

Also, I'm amused by all the people who crap on any ideas of religion or organized religion, but are ready to stand up and fight for this mosque. ;)[/QUOTE]

Don't like *injustice*? Well look at *worse injustice* in *random shithole*.

A) See *first injustice* isn't that bad.
B) You should be grateful you only have to deal with *first injustice* if you were in *random shithole* you would be dealing with *worse injustice*
 
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[quote name='UncleBob']Also, I'm amused by all the people who crap on any ideas of religion or organized religion, but are ready to stand up and fight for this mosque. ;)[/QUOTE]

I support your freedom to be a dumbass, but I don't support your dumbass ideas.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']Don't like *injustice*? Well look at *worse injustice* in *random shithole*.

A) See *first injustice* isn't that bad.
B) You should be grateful you only have to deal with *first injustice* if you were in *random shithole* you would be dealing with *worse injustice*[/QUOTE]

Protesting is an injustice now?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Also, I'm amused by all the people who crap on any ideas of religion or organized religion, but are ready to stand up and fight for this mosque. ;)[/QUOTE]

I think tax breaks for religion are bunco. This case just happens to highlight all the problems they bring.

Personally I find this Imam's viewpoints adherent. However if he had to pay a hefty fine to the state to get on his soapbox, I'd be willing to keep my mouth shut and let NYC figure it out. Being that the state is subsidizing his rants, I feel the need to add my two cents.
 
Bob, I thought you would actually stand on principles and defend this thing. Instead you look to other countries for your cues on tolerance.

Personally, my standard of tolerance isn't based on Taliban terrorists in Afghanistan.

If you want to look to them to decide what we do here in America, be my guest.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Protesting is an injustice now?[/QUOTE]

Don't like *people trying to block the construction of a new mosque being built in New York*? Well look at *the Taliban murdering Christian missionaries* in *Afghanistan*

A) See *people trying to block the construction of a new mosque being built in New York* isn't that bad.
B) You should be grateful you only have to deal with *people trying to block the construction of a new mosque being built in New York* if you were in *Afghanistan* you would be dealing with *people murdering you*

--------------

Don't like *gay marriage being banned*? Well look at *death penalty being handed out for homosexuality* in *Sudan*.

A) See *gay marriage being banned* isn't that bad.
B) You should be grateful you only have to deal with *gay marriage being banned* if you were in *Sudan* you would be dealing with *the death penalty*

------------

Goddamn, that could work for almost anything.
 
[quote name='camoor']I think tax breaks for religion are bunco.[/QUOTE]

Completely agree. We need to get rid of the tax exemption for religious organizations.

[quote name='IRHari']Bob, I thought you would actually stand on principles and defend this thing. Instead you look to other countries for your cues on tolerance.[/QUOTE]

Actually, believe it or not, I don't really have a problem with it.

But, on the other hand, I do understand where the issue comes in from those who do have a problem with it.

[quote name='Sporadic']
Don't like *gay marriage being banned*? Well look at *death penalty being handed out for homosexuality* in *Sudan*. [/quote]

So, now, non-violent protests are equivalent to the government denying civil rights?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So, now, non-violent protests are equivalent to the government denying civil rights?[/QUOTE]

lol

You don't realize that they are trying to trample on another's group right to build a building and practice their religion because they are Muslim and the location is kind of close to WTC?

Oh, and ignore the whole "trying to get the old building registered a landmark so they wouldn't be able to tear it down and build the building they wanted too" thing. Only thing happening is non-violent protests. I forgot.
 
[quote name='Sporadic']lol

You don't realize that they are trying to trample on another's group right to build a building and practice their religion because they are Muslim and the location is kind of close to WTC?

Oh, and ignore the whole "trying to get the old building registered a landmark so they wouldn't be able to tear it down and build the building they wanted too" thing. Only thing happening is non-violent protests. I forgot.[/QUOTE]

Wait - now we're just supposed to pretend that the left is really interested in protecting the rights of private property owners to use their own private property how they see fit, without interference by the government?
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I support your freedom to be a dumbass, but I don't support your dumbass ideas.[/QUOTE]
Basically how I feel. I don't personally like religion, but I'll defend someone's right to believe whatever the fuck they want, even Bob's dumb ass. He should understand that, but people who don't like religion must also want to take away everyone's right to believe in them because we're all a bunch of evil communists.
 
[quote name='SpazX']Nope.



Duh.



Right, it's very confusing.[/QUOTE]
Yeah he sure got us there. "Ha! You don't like religion, but you're standing up for these people, hypocrite!"

People like Bob are the reason I can't take many conservatives seriously, the thought process is so screwed up. It's a simpler way of thinking, where everything is black and white and there is no nuance. There are some conservatives who don't resort to that, but they seem to be few and far between.
 
without complete interference by the government, of course not. Interference to protect rights within the boundaries of the Constitution and the law, yes.
 
It's amazing how Clak has me on ignore, yet can't even make two posts in a row without resorting to insults and name calling directed at me.

In a way, I should feel special, that apparently I take up so much of his thought process.
Honestly, though, it just creeps me out.

[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']without complete interference by the government, of course not. Interference to protect rights within the boundaries of the Constitution and the law, yes.[/QUOTE]

Well, these people are wanting it made into law that a mosque (or anything) cannot be built there (by protecting the site as a historical one). It's interesting to see how people try to manipulate the government into protecting "rights".

Now, back to idea of supporting people's rights to be dumbasses - I assume this means there will be no more talk of regulating news/opinion/talk radio as these people have all the rights they need to get behind the mike and spew forth whatever kinds if ideas and/or stupidity they like (so long as it isn't legally slanderous or such).
 
I don't think I've ever heard one of us say that talk radio or any other part of the media needs to be regulated....

Most of us hate Fox News but not one of us has called to ban it or subject it to government regulation.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Wait - now we're just supposed to pretend that the left is really interested in protecting the rights of private property owners to use their own private property how they see fit, without interference by the government?[/QUOTE]

So...what is the real reason "the left" cares about this?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Wait - now we're just supposed to pretend that the left is really interested in protecting the rights of private property owners to use their own private property how they see fit, without interference by the government?[/QUOTE]

We should definitely remember this the next time Bob or someone goes apeshit over phrases like 'the right wing...' or 'the tea party is...'

paint_brush.gif
 
If the Japanese Government bought land right next to Pearl Harbor and built a Japanese Shinto Shrine there, would it be insensitive and of poor judgement? Probably. Should they be stopped? No, not if they bought and own the land fair and square.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']If the Japanese Government bought land right next to Pearl Harbor and built a Japanese Shinto Shrine there, would it be insensitive and of poor judgement? Probably. Should they be stopped? No, not if they bought and own the land fair and square.[/QUOTE]
Japan seems... different. Japan was pretty much united against us during WWII, where-as Muslim extremists are a minority of Muslims.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']insensitivity and poor judgment are deeply rooted American traditions. they ought to be honored.[/QUOTE]
Less American, more human.

Still, point is the same.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']If the Japanese Government bought land right next to Pearl Harbor and built a Japanese Shinto Shrine there, would it be insensitive and of poor judgement? Probably. Should they be stopped? No, not if they bought and own the land fair and square.[/QUOTE]

Yes.

A Muslim (unrelated to 9/11) building a better building to house his mosque (which is already at the fucking location, two blocks away from WTC site) is the same as a Government building a house of worship for their leader at a place they attacked with military force.

you fucking retard
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']If the Japanese Government bought land right next to Pearl Harbor and built a Japanese Shinto Shrine there, would it be insensitive and of poor judgement? Probably. Should they be stopped? No, not if they bought and own the land fair and square.[/QUOTE]

The Saudi government isn't buying the land for the mosque. Try again.
 
[quote name='depascal22']The Saudi government isn't buying the land for the mosque. Try again.[/QUOTE]

It doesn't matter who buys it, you missed the point again.

If a Japanese religious building went up next to Pearl Harbor, people would be outraged. I'd also argue that there would be less "understanding" to go around than with this Mosque.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']It doesn't matter who buys it, you missed the point again.

If a Japanese religious building went up next to Pearl Harbor, people would be outraged. I'd also argue that there would be less "understanding" to go around than with this Mosque.[/QUOTE]

He didn't missed the point. Your analogy is horrible.

First, 9/11 was a terrorist act from a few extremists not a military action/act of war from another nation.

Second, the guy in charge of this mosque plan is not related to 9/11 or any of the hijackers besides the fact he practices the same religion. In fact, he denounced the attacks as un-Islamic.

Bradley: What would you say to people in this country who, looking at what happened in the Middle East, would associate Islam with fanaticism, with terrorism?

Faisal: Fanaticism and terrorism have no place in Islam. That's just as absurd as associating Hitler with Christianity, or David Koresh with Christianity. There are always people who will do peculiar things, and think that they are doing things in the name of their religion. But the Koran is... God says in the Koran that they think that they are doing right, but they are doing wrong.

Bradley: There are now more than six million Muslims in the United States, more than the number of Episcopalians, or Lutherans, or Methodists, or Presbyterians. Islam is now this country's fastest-growing religion. After Friday’s service, we talked with some members of the al-Farah mosque. So the average American, if you say "Islam," what do they think?

Congregant: When I think trouble... The average? The average American, they think trouble, terrorism. Terrorism, yes. Fear. And you know what? I think all of us wish to speak to all... Every American and tell them, hey, we are American, and we're Muslims. We're not terrorism.

Bradley: Explain for someone who doesn't know, who doesn't understand your religion in the simplest term.

Congregant: in the simplest term, Islam says that human life is the most sacrosanct, and there is no way that Islam would allow a suicide mission, and would allow the killing of innocents.

Congregant: Islam means a submission to god. It also means peace to a lot of people, which is what it means to me. "Islamic terrorism": I mean, those two words have no meaning to me as a Muslim.

Bradley: But Muslim terrorists, in the name of Islam, have struck against the United States time and time again. Osama bin Laden, the prime suspect in these latest attacks, is also thought to have been responsible for the car bomb attack in Saudi Arabia that killed five Americans; the attack on the USS Cole which killed 17 sailors; the deaths of 18 US army rangers in Somalia; and the bombings of two U.S. embassies in east Africa that killed 224 people. We met with four of this country's leading Islamic religious leaders to talk about this wave of terror, including the most recent attack at the World Trade Center and the Pentagon. Imam Siraj Wahaj of Brooklyn, did you think Muslims could have committed this?

Wahaj: No, just from theological process, Islam doesn't only talk about the ends, but also the means; that however angry you are, you couldn't do anything like this. You couldn't kill innocent people.
Click to expand...

I think a better example would be Timothy McVeigh. Would anybody give a shit if a Roman Catholic church or some type of survivalism building was built two blocks away from the Alfred P. Murrah Building in Oklahoma City? I doubt it.
 
It was a bad analogy, because the Japanese were not doing it for their religious beliefs, the 9/11 attackers were.

I am not saying they should not be allowed to build there. I am saying it's foolish and insensitive, for those involved, to do so.

And if you don't believe that there are not elements of Radical Islam that are excited about the recruitment PR it will provide the dark corners of the Radical Islamic world, you are willfully ignorant.

But, again, I am not saying they should be prevented from building it. Nor should the KKK be prevented from building a lodge next to a black church. It's stupid, but it's their choice.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']II am saying it's foolish and insensitive, for those involved, to do so.[/QUOTE]

Except it isn't because they are not related.

Muslim does NOT equal terrorism.

[quote name='thrustbucket']And if you don't believe that there are not elements of Radical Islam that are excited about the recruitment PR it will provide the dark corners of the Radical Islamic world, you are willfully ignorant.[/QUOTE]

And? They will take credit for anything. Hell, they held a martyr ceremony for James Miller (a British filmmaker) after he was murdered by Israeli forces, even when his family requested that they didn't.

You can't base your actions on how some extremists will take it. If they are against it and try to use it to fortify their position or if they are for it and try to use it to fortify their position.

[quote name='thrustbucket']But, again, I am not saying they should be prevented from building it. Nor should the KKK be prevented from building a lodge next to a black church. It's stupid, but it's their choice.[/QUOTE]

Again, it's not stupid or insensitive to build a mosque in New York City (even if it is 2 blocks away from the WTC area) and trying to compare it to the KKK building next to a black church is retarded.
 
[quote name='Ugamer_X']http://www.nytimes.com/2010/08/08/us/08mosque.html?pagewanted=1&_r=1&ref=us&src=me

What the fuck people?

Seriously, what the fuck?[/QUOTE]

Recently, a small group of activists became alarmed about the mosque. Diana Serafin, a grandmother who lost her job in tech support this year, said she reached out to others she knew from attending Tea Party events and anti-immigration rallies. She said they read books by critics of Islam, including former Muslims like Walid Shoebat, Wafa Sultan and Manoucher Bakh. She also attended a meeting of the local chapter of ACT! for America, a Florida-based group that says its purpose is to defend Western civilization against Islam.

“As a mother and a grandmother, I worry,” Ms. Serafin said. “I learned that in 20 years with the rate of the birth population, we will be overtaken by Islam, and their goal is to get people in Congress and the Supreme Court to see that Shariah is implemented. My children and grandchildren will have to live under that.”

“I do believe everybody has a right to freedom of religion,” she said. “But Islam is not about a religion. It’s a political government, and it’s 100 percent against our Constitution.”

Ms. Serafin was among an estimated 20 to 30 people who turned out to protest the mosque, including some who intentionally took dogs to offend those Muslims who consider dogs to be ritually unclean.
Click to expand...

I don't get what the issue is. That sounds o-kay to me.
 
She also attended a meeting of the local chapter of ACT! for America, a Florida-based group that says its purpose is to defend Western civilization against Islam.
Click to expand...
Heh, sounds like the start of the 21st century crusades.
 
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