Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero Riles Families of 9/11 Victims
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thrustbucket
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[quote name='Sporadic']Except it isn't because they are not related.
Muslim does NOT equal terrorism. [/quote]
I never thought I'd be arguing with a flaming liberal about why something is insensitive.
If I were a peaceful Muslim, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.
Muslim does NOT equal terrorism. [/quote]
I never thought I'd be arguing with a flaming liberal about why something is insensitive.
If I were a peaceful Muslim, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.
[quote name='UncleBob']Your comment strongly implies that I've "gone apeshit" over such a thing in the past.[/QUOTE]
I'm not implying anything, you're reading too much into this. I've noticed when I'm looking at clouds, I don't tend to find a lot of shapes. Other people do. It's interesting what you can find when you convince yourself it's there.
[quote name='thrustbucket'] If I were a peaceful Muslim, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I would be afraid to build it because of crazy people who would do things to it and the people associated with it. Kudos to the brave people willing to stand up to the nutjobs.
The 9/11 hijackers claim they did it in that organization's name, but that doesn't make their claim legitimate.
The militant beliefs of the Lambs of Christ aren't shared by most Christians. Any actions they take in the name of Christianity really doesn't mean anything.
I'm not implying anything, you're reading too much into this. I've noticed when I'm looking at clouds, I don't tend to find a lot of shapes. Other people do. It's interesting what you can find when you convince yourself it's there.
[quote name='thrustbucket'] If I were a peaceful Muslim, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.[/QUOTE]
Personally, I would be afraid to build it because of crazy people who would do things to it and the people associated with it. Kudos to the brave people willing to stand up to the nutjobs.
The 9/11 hijackers claim they did it in that organization's name, but that doesn't make their claim legitimate.
The militant beliefs of the Lambs of Christ aren't shared by most Christians. Any actions they take in the name of Christianity really doesn't mean anything.
[quote name='IRHari']I'm not implying anything, you're reading too much into this. I've noticed when I'm looking at clouds, I don't tend to find a lot of shapes. Other people do. It's interesting what you can find when you convince yourself it's there.[/quote]
Someone remind us all of this the next time IRHari goes apeshiit over illegal immigrants having anchor babies in the US and how those people should be shipped off to GitMo. Or the next time IRHari eats a turd. Or the next time we all have to bail IRHari out of jail for beating his own mother with a broken lawn chair.
[quote name='IRHari']Personally, I would be afraid to build it because of crazy people who would do things to it and the people associated with it. Kudos to the brave people willing to stand up to the nutjobs.
The 9/11 hijackers claim they did it in that organization's name, but that doesn't make their claim legitimate.
The militant beliefs of the Lambs of Christ aren't shared by most Christians. Any actions they take in the name of Christianity really doesn't mean anything.[/QUOTE]
I wonder how many people agree with this also agree that Rush = All Conservatives and the entire Republican Party.
Someone remind us all of this the next time IRHari goes apeshiit over illegal immigrants having anchor babies in the US and how those people should be shipped off to GitMo. Or the next time IRHari eats a turd. Or the next time we all have to bail IRHari out of jail for beating his own mother with a broken lawn chair.
[quote name='IRHari']Personally, I would be afraid to build it because of crazy people who would do things to it and the people associated with it. Kudos to the brave people willing to stand up to the nutjobs.
The 9/11 hijackers claim they did it in that organization's name, but that doesn't make their claim legitimate.
The militant beliefs of the Lambs of Christ aren't shared by most Christians. Any actions they take in the name of Christianity really doesn't mean anything.[/QUOTE]
I wonder how many people agree with this also agree that Rush = All Conservatives and the entire Republican Party.
[quote name='thrustbucket']If I were a peaceful Muslim, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.[/QUOTE]
So, if you were a "peaceful" Muslim living in New York, you would oppose the construction of what basically boils down to a church/YMCA because 20 extremists committed a terrible act, in your religion's name, two blocks away?
Bullshit.
You are either lying to yourself or unable to disassociate yourself from your current life.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.[/QUOTE]
So, if you were a "peaceful" Muslim living in New York, you would oppose the construction of what basically boils down to a church/YMCA because 20 extremists committed a terrible act, in your religion's name, two blocks away?
Bullshit.
You are either lying to yourself or unable to disassociate yourself from your current life.
[quote name='thrustbucket']
I never thought I'd be arguing with a flaming liberal about why something is insensitive.
If I were a peaceful Muslim, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.[/QUOTE]
I'm a "peaceful muslim" and I think the outrage over this is nothing more than ignorance, fear, and a justification for people to make their hate for the religion more acceptable. I think a community center run by Muslims in this area is a great idea.
There were mosques in the area before 9/11, they'll be there after. It's meant as a mosque and community center open to the public. What's wrong with that? I don't think it's even remotely insensitive because that assumes that all muslims should be apologizing for 9/11. Why? I didn't have anything to do with it. These people didn't have anything to do with it. In fact, they're trying to invest money into this building and location that the entire community can access, and spoke out against the attacks several times already.
To me, the whole premise behind this outrage is that all "non-terrorist" Muslims should be required to greet an American, then immediately state, "I am sorry for 9/11, I hate Osama bin Laden". What kind of twisted white guilt outcome do people really want out of this?
Based on a few quotes from protestors, it's my opinion that they are protesting Islam, not the idea of building a mosque there. But to me, either of those two reasons is still misguided, and has just become an acceptable way to be bigoted towards Muslims (think back to the UAE company that was buying a controlling interest in port management a couple years back)
I never thought I'd be arguing with a flaming liberal about why something is insensitive.
If I were a peaceful Muslim, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.[/QUOTE]
I'm a "peaceful muslim" and I think the outrage over this is nothing more than ignorance, fear, and a justification for people to make their hate for the religion more acceptable. I think a community center run by Muslims in this area is a great idea.
There were mosques in the area before 9/11, they'll be there after. It's meant as a mosque and community center open to the public. What's wrong with that? I don't think it's even remotely insensitive because that assumes that all muslims should be apologizing for 9/11. Why? I didn't have anything to do with it. These people didn't have anything to do with it. In fact, they're trying to invest money into this building and location that the entire community can access, and spoke out against the attacks several times already.
To me, the whole premise behind this outrage is that all "non-terrorist" Muslims should be required to greet an American, then immediately state, "I am sorry for 9/11, I hate Osama bin Laden". What kind of twisted white guilt outcome do people really want out of this?
Based on a few quotes from protestors, it's my opinion that they are protesting Islam, not the idea of building a mosque there. But to me, either of those two reasons is still misguided, and has just become an acceptable way to be bigoted towards Muslims (think back to the UAE company that was buying a controlling interest in port management a couple years back)
[quote name='thrustbucket']If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.[/QUOTE]
Anti-abortion, pro-life CHRISTIANS.
Lord's Resistance Army - uses child soldiers, in the name of Christianity, and has killed 1000-2000 people in Uganda. 1997-now.
And of course, the McVeigh bombing, which killed 168 people, including 19 kids. Christian/Racist motivation.
Waco incident
Any incident involving the KKK
and so on and so forth.
Next time someone tries to build a church anywhere, by you're logic, they're insensitive.
I wouldn't regard it as so, though, because those Christians might be good people. JUST LIKE WITH THE MUSLIMS HERE.
You idiot!
(wikipedia)
Anti-abortion, pro-life CHRISTIANS.
Lord's Resistance Army - uses child soldiers, in the name of Christianity, and has killed 1000-2000 people in Uganda. 1997-now.
And of course, the McVeigh bombing, which killed 168 people, including 19 kids. Christian/Racist motivation.
Waco incident
Any incident involving the KKK
and so on and so forth.
Next time someone tries to build a church anywhere, by you're logic, they're insensitive.
I wouldn't regard it as so, though, because those Christians might be good people. JUST LIKE WITH THE MUSLIMS HERE.
You idiot!
depascal22
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Would it be insensitive to build a Christian Church in Salem?
And thrust, I love how I always miss the point when horrible analogies are used. Let's talk about Pearl Harbor, the British attack on D.C., and every other state sponsored atrocity and somehow compare it to 9/11.
The analogy with McVeigh was a much better analogy but I don't think the right wants to admit that the fringe lunatics within our borders are way more dangerous than the fringe lunatics outside them.
So, thrust, if I detonated a nuclear bomb in the middle of Nashville in the name of Jesus, would you propose a ban of all Christian Churches in the city forever?
And thrust, I love how I always miss the point when horrible analogies are used. Let's talk about Pearl Harbor, the British attack on D.C., and every other state sponsored atrocity and somehow compare it to 9/11.
The analogy with McVeigh was a much better analogy but I don't think the right wants to admit that the fringe lunatics within our borders are way more dangerous than the fringe lunatics outside them.
So, thrust, if I detonated a nuclear bomb in the middle of Nashville in the name of Jesus, would you propose a ban of all Christian Churches in the city forever?
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[quote name='depascal22']So, thrust, if I detonated a nuclear bomb in the middle of Nashville in the name of Jesus, would you propose a ban of all Christian Churches in the city forever?[/QUOTE]
Here's what I think depascal22, if such an incident occurred as you suggest:
If I were a peaceful Christian, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 2,000,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.
Here's what I think depascal22, if such an incident occurred as you suggest:
If I were a peaceful Christian, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 2,000,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.
speedracer
Banned
[quote name='thrustbucket']
I never thought I'd be arguing with a flaming liberal about why something is insensitive.
If I were a peaceful Muslim, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.[/QUOTE]
I'm just curious. Do you think the government should block it?
I never thought I'd be arguing with a flaming liberal about why something is insensitive.
If I were a peaceful Muslim, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 3,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.[/QUOTE]
I'm just curious. Do you think the government should block it?
fullmetalfan720
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This is one of the most ridiculous debates I have ever seen.
cindersphere
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[quote name='fullmetalfan720']This is one of the most ridiculous debates I have ever seen.[/QUOTE]
.
.
[quote name='berzirk']
[/QUOTE]
right, before 9/11.
personally, i think the whole thing is silly. but i can understand why a small number of people (ie people directly affected by 9/11 and even the general NYC populace) could be very upset about this. but i do think the vast majority of people are just raising a hubbub over nothing.
[/QUOTE]
right, before 9/11.
personally, i think the whole thing is silly. but i can understand why a small number of people (ie people directly affected by 9/11 and even the general NYC populace) could be very upset about this. but i do think the vast majority of people are just raising a hubbub over nothing.
panzerfaust
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This country really needs to man the 
up IMO.
up IMO.
[quote name='berzirk']
To me, the whole premise behind this outrage is that all "non-terrorist" Muslims should be required to greet an American, then immediately state, "I am sorry for 9/11, I hate Osama bin Laden". What kind of twisted white guilt outcome do people really want out of this?
[/QUOTE]
To me, the whole premise behind this outrage is that all "non-terrorist" Muslims should be required to greet an American, then immediately state, "I am sorry for 9/11, I hate Osama bin Laden". What kind of twisted white guilt outcome do people really want out of this?
[/QUOTE]
depascal22
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[quote name='IRHari']Here's what I think depascal22, if such an incident occurred as you suggest:
If I were a peaceful Christian, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 2,000,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.[/QUOTE]
Basically, you're saying that one person (or a small group) can hijack the good name of any organization or religion.
You'd think the sentiments would be the same but we all know that the attack would be treated as the act of a lone crazy person and not the attempt by "The Christian Church" to forcibly destroy America.
It's hypocrisy plain and simple. The Roman Catholic Church has proven to be a rotten organization that has been responsible for it's share of atrocities in it's history but you never see mass protests when a cathedral or Catholic School gets built. Why? You don't think it's a smack in the face to everyone that got molested by a teacher?
If I were a peaceful Christian, I would think this was a stupid idea.
If any member of my religion, or any organization I belonged to, committed mass murder of 2,000,000 people in that organizations name - I would be very much against the building of that religion's church or organizations building right next to where it happened. Even if I denounced that murderous act.
I guess that's the difference between you and me if you would be all for it.[/QUOTE]
Basically, you're saying that one person (or a small group) can hijack the good name of any organization or religion.
You'd think the sentiments would be the same but we all know that the attack would be treated as the act of a lone crazy person and not the attempt by "The Christian Church" to forcibly destroy America.
It's hypocrisy plain and simple. The Roman Catholic Church has proven to be a rotten organization that has been responsible for it's share of atrocities in it's history but you never see mass protests when a cathedral or Catholic School gets built. Why? You don't think it's a smack in the face to everyone that got molested by a teacher?
I don't actually believe that. I was copying thrustbucket's argument:
[quote name='thrustbucket']
I'm a "peaceful muslim" and I think the outrage over this is nothing more than ignorance, fear, and a justification for people to make their hate for the religion more acceptable. I think a community center run by Muslims in this area is a great idea.
There were mosques in the area before 9/11, they'll be there after. It's meant as a mosque and community center open to the public. What's wrong with that? I don't think it's even remotely insensitive because that assumes that all muslims should be apologizing for 9/11. Why? I didn't have anything to do with it. These people didn't have anything to do with it. In fact, they're trying to invest money into this building and location that the entire community can access, and spoke out against the attacks several times already.
To me, the whole premise behind this outrage is that all "non-terrorist" Muslims should be required to greet an American, then immediately state, "I am sorry for 9/11, I hate Osama bin Laden". What kind of twisted white guilt outcome do people really want out of this?
Based on a few quotes from protestors, it's my opinion that they are protesting Islam, not the idea of building a mosque there. But to me, either of those two reasons is still misguided, and has just become an acceptable way to be bigoted towards Muslims (think back to the UAE company that was buying a controlling interest in port management a couple years back)[/QUOTE]
[quote name='thrustbucket']
I'm a "peaceful muslim" and I think the outrage over this is nothing more than ignorance, fear, and a justification for people to make their hate for the religion more acceptable. I think a community center run by Muslims in this area is a great idea.
There were mosques in the area before 9/11, they'll be there after. It's meant as a mosque and community center open to the public. What's wrong with that? I don't think it's even remotely insensitive because that assumes that all muslims should be apologizing for 9/11. Why? I didn't have anything to do with it. These people didn't have anything to do with it. In fact, they're trying to invest money into this building and location that the entire community can access, and spoke out against the attacks several times already.
To me, the whole premise behind this outrage is that all "non-terrorist" Muslims should be required to greet an American, then immediately state, "I am sorry for 9/11, I hate Osama bin Laden". What kind of twisted white guilt outcome do people really want out of this?
Based on a few quotes from protestors, it's my opinion that they are protesting Islam, not the idea of building a mosque there. But to me, either of those two reasons is still misguided, and has just become an acceptable way to be bigoted towards Muslims (think back to the UAE company that was buying a controlling interest in port management a couple years back)[/QUOTE]
There's a mosque 4 blocks away already. So a mosque 2 blocks away is not ok? What about 3 blocks away? Clearly 4 blocks is okay because no one cares, and no one probably knows about it.
Mr. Hannity tear down this mosque! Tell me where to draw the arbitrary line!
Mr. Hannity tear down this mosque! Tell me where to draw the arbitrary line!
mykevermin
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^ post-hoc rationalization bullshit. you'd hate the mosque if it was called 'muhammad and friends happy fun place.' you just found some horseshit website masquerading as a 'dialogue' when it's just one christians' attempt to proselytize to muslims quasi-respectably as if he didn't revile the faith as inferior. why don't you tell me just how many people protesting the mosque - any mosque, since this ain't the only one - who know the name of the place? you didn't know shit until redstate posted the link to answering-islam.org.
...aaaaaaaaaand, if the history of the world from now all the way back to the 13th century is fair game, since apparently, based on your claim, we're a bit miffed about something that happened 850 years ago, I think that we can discover a litany of offensiveness in damn near any thing of any faith as long as we're sifting through a damn-near-millenium of those faiths. i'd tell you that you suck ass at arguments, but this one isn't you - it's a lazy cut-and-paste job from another website that you didn't bother to examine the shalwar-on-head stupidity of.
[quote name='berzirk']Based on a few quotes from protestors, it's my opinion that they are protesting Islam, not the idea of building a mosque there. But to me, either of those two reasons is still misguided, and has just become an acceptable way to be bigoted towards Muslims[/QUOTE]
winner winner halal chicken dinner.
...aaaaaaaaaand, if the history of the world from now all the way back to the 13th century is fair game, since apparently, based on your claim, we're a bit miffed about something that happened 850 years ago, I think that we can discover a litany of offensiveness in damn near any thing of any faith as long as we're sifting through a damn-near-millenium of those faiths. i'd tell you that you suck ass at arguments, but this one isn't you - it's a lazy cut-and-paste job from another website that you didn't bother to examine the shalwar-on-head stupidity of.
[quote name='berzirk']Based on a few quotes from protestors, it's my opinion that they are protesting Islam, not the idea of building a mosque there. But to me, either of those two reasons is still misguided, and has just become an acceptable way to be bigoted towards Muslims[/QUOTE]
winner winner halal chicken dinner.
Trancendental
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[quote name='mykevermin']...aaaaaaaaaand, if the history of the world from now all the way back to the 13th century is fair game, since apparently, based on your claim, we're a bit miffed about something that happened 850 years ago, I think that we can discover a litany of offensiveness in damn near any thing of any Abrahamic faith as long as we're sifting through a damn-near-millenium of those faiths. i'd tell you that you suck ass at arguments, but this one isn't you - it's a lazy cut-and-paste job from another website that you didn't bother to examine the shalwar-on-head stupidity of.[/QUOTE]
Fixed.
Fixed.
[quote name='mykevermin']^ post-hoc rationalization bullshit. you'd hate the mosque if it was called 'muhammad and friends happy fun place.' you just found some horseshit website masquerading as a 'dialogue' when it's just one christians' attempt to proselytize to muslims quasi-respectably as if he didn't revile the faith as inferior. why don't you tell me just how many people protesting the mosque - any mosque, since this ain't the only one - who know the name of the place? you didn't know shit until redstate posted the link to answering-islam.org.
...aaaaaaaaaand, if the history of the world from now all the way back to the 13th century is fair game, since apparently, based on your claim, we're a bit miffed about something that happened 850 years ago, I think that we can discover a litany of offensiveness in damn near any thing of any faith as long as we're sifting through a damn-near-millenium of those faiths. i'd tell you that you suck ass at arguments, but this one isn't you - it's a lazy cut-and-paste job from another website that you didn't bother to examine the shalwar-on-head stupidity of.
winner winner halal chicken dinner.[/QUOTE]
Not that I agree that the government should put a stop to any private company legally building something of their choice on a property that have rights to, but I can understand where the offensiveness comes from. Can you?
Again I don't think the government should stop them, but can you imagine if anyone had the balls to do that in a sensitive area anywhere else in the world? It would instantly be burned and the owners would be killed or worse.
This is not an excuse for the protests, threats, and so on, but like it or not those hijackers claimed they did it in the name of Islam, and as you all like to claim ALOT is that doing these type of things is only antagonizing the moderates. If you want to sway people over to believing Islam was not a part of 9/11 in the least, building a mosque right next door isn't exactly going to win peoples hearts and minds. Let's be real here, the Federal government should not get in these peoples way, but they are showing real lack of sensitivity to a fresh wound.
...aaaaaaaaaand, if the history of the world from now all the way back to the 13th century is fair game, since apparently, based on your claim, we're a bit miffed about something that happened 850 years ago, I think that we can discover a litany of offensiveness in damn near any thing of any faith as long as we're sifting through a damn-near-millenium of those faiths. i'd tell you that you suck ass at arguments, but this one isn't you - it's a lazy cut-and-paste job from another website that you didn't bother to examine the shalwar-on-head stupidity of.
winner winner halal chicken dinner.[/QUOTE]
Not that I agree that the government should put a stop to any private company legally building something of their choice on a property that have rights to, but I can understand where the offensiveness comes from. Can you?
Again I don't think the government should stop them, but can you imagine if anyone had the balls to do that in a sensitive area anywhere else in the world? It would instantly be burned and the owners would be killed or worse.
This is not an excuse for the protests, threats, and so on, but like it or not those hijackers claimed they did it in the name of Islam, and as you all like to claim ALOT is that doing these type of things is only antagonizing the moderates. If you want to sway people over to believing Islam was not a part of 9/11 in the least, building a mosque right next door isn't exactly going to win peoples hearts and minds. Let's be real here, the Federal government should not get in these peoples way, but they are showing real lack of sensitivity to a fresh wound.
[quote name='Knoell']Again I don't think the government should stop them, but can you imagine if anyone had the balls to do that in a sensitive area anywhere else in the world? It would instantly be burned and the owners would be killed or worse.[/QUOTE]
This is America. I thought we were more tolerant than that. It's probably a bad idea to base your standard of tolerance on what other (intolerant) countries do. Why do you hate America?
[quote name='Knoell']
This is not an excuse for the protests, threats, and so on, but like it or not those hijackers claimed they did it in the name of Islam, and as you all like to claim ALOT is that doing these type of things is only antagonizing the moderates. If you want to sway people over to believing Islam was not a part of 9/11 in the least, building a mosque right next door isn't exactly going to win peoples hearts and minds. Let's be real here, the Federal government should not get in these peoples way, but they are showing real lack of sensitivity to a fresh wound.[/QUOTE]
Again, there is a mosque 4 blocks away. No one was calling for that to be torn down. Now something 2 blocks away is a problem? What if it was 3, would that be okay? Clearly 4 is okay, but you're going to need to explain where you want to draw that arbitrary line of sensitivity.
This is America. I thought we were more tolerant than that. It's probably a bad idea to base your standard of tolerance on what other (intolerant) countries do. Why do you hate America?
[quote name='Knoell']
This is not an excuse for the protests, threats, and so on, but like it or not those hijackers claimed they did it in the name of Islam, and as you all like to claim ALOT is that doing these type of things is only antagonizing the moderates. If you want to sway people over to believing Islam was not a part of 9/11 in the least, building a mosque right next door isn't exactly going to win peoples hearts and minds. Let's be real here, the Federal government should not get in these peoples way, but they are showing real lack of sensitivity to a fresh wound.[/QUOTE]
Again, there is a mosque 4 blocks away. No one was calling for that to be torn down. Now something 2 blocks away is a problem? What if it was 3, would that be okay? Clearly 4 is okay, but you're going to need to explain where you want to draw that arbitrary line of sensitivity.
speedracer
Banned
Only one problem. The Imam at the center of the 'Ground Zero Mosque' controversy was recruited by the Bush administration to travel abroad as an example of pluralist, moderate Islam as practiced in the United States in 2005.
The EXACT SAME THING that Bush recruited this Imam for gets Obama criticized by Republicans. You can't make this shit up.
Since I'm apparently still missing something, those who say they understand why it's insensitive, explain it to me. These guys want to spend millions of dollars to build a mosque and a community center in the area where some crazy terrorists killed a lot of people.
So unless you're grouping all Muslims with the terrorists, I don't see why this Cordoba group needs to be apologetic for trying to construct their mosque and community center. (which by the way, re: 9/11, they've already apologized for, and spoken out against it, multiple times)
So unless you're grouping all Muslims with the terrorists, I don't see why this Cordoba group needs to be apologetic for trying to construct their mosque and community center. (which by the way, re: 9/11, they've already apologized for, and spoken out against it, multiple times)
KingBroly
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You do realize that not a lot of Americans look at Muslims with a pleasing eye because of the attacks, right? Terrorists who believe in Islam are the reason people group all terrorists with the Muslim faith, whether you or anyone else likes it, including a lot of Muslims. This isn't the only situation where this is thrown about. For example, all cops are pigs is a saying. It's definitely not true, but there are some bad cops. It's an unfair grouping that you'll have to accept.
[quote name='KingBroly']You do realize that not a lot of Americans look at Muslims with a pleasing eye because of the attacks, right? Terrorists who believe in Islam are the reason people group all terrorists with the Muslim faith, whether you or anyone else likes it, including a lot of Muslims. This isn't the only situation where this is thrown about. For example, all cops are pigs is a saying. It's definitely not true, but there are some bad cops. It's an unfair grouping that you'll have to accept.[/QUOTE]
So because there is a group of misguided and misinformed bigots, the entirety of the group being affected should have to act like they agree with the bigots?
To carry your analogy out, if I'm one of the really good cops, should I agree that all cops are pigs because a group that doesn't like me tells me so? Does that mean that they should quit their profession because the public doesn't like them?
If the answer to either one of those questions is no, then you've got your answer to the question of "is it insensitive for a mosque and community center to be built here".
So because there is a group of misguided and misinformed bigots, the entirety of the group being affected should have to act like they agree with the bigots?
To carry your analogy out, if I'm one of the really good cops, should I agree that all cops are pigs because a group that doesn't like me tells me so? Does that mean that they should quit their profession because the public doesn't like them?
If the answer to either one of those questions is no, then you've got your answer to the question of "is it insensitive for a mosque and community center to be built here".
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Beorach
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I had read that the original Cordoba mosque was among the most beautiful in the world and the Christians ruined it but I'm not an authority on this topic (nor have I done extensive reading on it). OBL is to Muslims what Tim McVeigh is to Christians and Al-Queda's recruiting would be assisted by our not allowing Muslims freedom to worship in this case. By the way, did someone already mention there's a strip club located less than 500' from the "hallowed ground" proposed for this mosque/community center construction? Go and read up on the number of Muslim groups that condemned the 9/11 attack on 9/12 sometime. Their religion doesn't condone killing innocents nor does the Christian one but misguided souls (some running the world) still see it done for what they'd call the greater good...
Cue more "Obama is a secret MUSLIM that wants to destroy AMERICA and replace THE CONSTITUTION with SHARIA LAW!!!!" craziness from the crazies.
[quote name='tivo']One of the bigger problems people have with the cordoba mosque...[/QUOTE]
Actually, they renamed it Park51.
panzerfaust
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Fox News is erupting right now.
[quote name='berzirk']Since I'm apparently still missing something, those who say they understand why it's insensitive, explain it to me. These guys want to spend millions of dollars to build a mosque and a community center in the area where some crazy terrorists killed a lot of people.
So unless you're grouping all Muslims with the terrorists, I don't see why this Cordoba group needs to be apologetic for trying to construct their mosque and community center. (which by the way, re: 9/11, they've already apologized for, and spoken out against it, multiple times)[/QUOTE]
The terrorists declared that they did it in the name of Islam. Alot of moderate Americans saw that. Would you agree that their opinion of muslims was not as bad before 9/11? If so then obviously there is a need repair relations with Americans, building a mosque right next to the spot of a terrorist attack that was declared in the name of Islam would not be a good start to getting on good terms. It is just douchy to do, but it is a free country and the Government should not interfere, but that does not mean people cannot be sensitive to it, and that does not mean I cannot call it a douchy move by that faith.
It would be similiar to a crazed member of the catholic faith blowing up a mosque in Iraq or Afghanistan. Would you guys understand the members of that city or country were to be outraged if the Catholic Church decided to upgrade the current church and build a megachurch a block from the site? Wouldn't it be a bit douchy?
So unless you're grouping all Muslims with the terrorists, I don't see why this Cordoba group needs to be apologetic for trying to construct their mosque and community center. (which by the way, re: 9/11, they've already apologized for, and spoken out against it, multiple times)[/QUOTE]
The terrorists declared that they did it in the name of Islam. Alot of moderate Americans saw that. Would you agree that their opinion of muslims was not as bad before 9/11? If so then obviously there is a need repair relations with Americans, building a mosque right next to the spot of a terrorist attack that was declared in the name of Islam would not be a good start to getting on good terms. It is just douchy to do, but it is a free country and the Government should not interfere, but that does not mean people cannot be sensitive to it, and that does not mean I cannot call it a douchy move by that faith.
It would be similiar to a crazed member of the catholic faith blowing up a mosque in Iraq or Afghanistan. Would you guys understand the members of that city or country were to be outraged if the Catholic Church decided to upgrade the current church and build a megachurch a block from the site? Wouldn't it be a bit douchy?
As Glenn Greenwald asks, when is the last time a President came out in support of something that 70% of Americans are against? This is pretty brave and commendable.
[quote name='Knoell']
It would be similiar to a crazed member of the catholic faith blowing up a mosque in Iraq or Afghanistan. Would you guys understand the members of that city or country were to be outraged if the Catholic Church decided to upgrade the current church and build a megachurch a block from the site? Wouldn't it be a bit douchy?[/QUOTE]
it would be douchy if they didn't condemn the blowing up of the mosque. But the builders of the Cordoba House have condemned everything about 9/11, multiple times. What the don't people understand about that.
Why should moderate muslims be responsible for reaching out to intolerant people when they were not guilty of burning bridges in the first place?
[quote name='Knoell']
It would be similiar to a crazed member of the catholic faith blowing up a mosque in Iraq or Afghanistan. Would you guys understand the members of that city or country were to be outraged if the Catholic Church decided to upgrade the current church and build a megachurch a block from the site? Wouldn't it be a bit douchy?[/QUOTE]
it would be douchy if they didn't condemn the blowing up of the mosque. But the builders of the Cordoba House have condemned everything about 9/11, multiple times. What the
don't people understand about that.Why should moderate muslims be responsible for reaching out to intolerant people when they were not guilty of burning bridges in the first place?
[quote name='IRHari']As Glenn Greenwald asks, when is the last time a President came out in support of something that 70% of Americans are against? This is pretty brave and commendable.
it would be douchy if they didn't condemn the blowing up of the mosque. But the builders of the Cordoba House have condemned everything about 9/11, multiple times. What the don't people understand about that.
Why should moderate muslims be responsible for reaching out to intolerant people when they were not guilty of burning bridges in the first place?[/QUOTE]
They don't have to do anything they don't want to, it would be nice if they were a little more considerate, and it is still a douchy insensitive thing to do. Alot of people think this and that is their right, just like it is these peoples right to build a mosque there if they have the zoning and property rights.
You cannot cherry pick peoples rights to defend and which ones to sit down and shut up. You are condemning and grouping everyone who is upset about this to a bunch of intolerant threatening jerks just like you are claiming we are doing to those Muslims to be terrorists.
it would be douchy if they didn't condemn the blowing up of the mosque. But the builders of the Cordoba House have condemned everything about 9/11, multiple times. What the
don't people understand about that.Why should moderate muslims be responsible for reaching out to intolerant people when they were not guilty of burning bridges in the first place?[/QUOTE]
They don't have to do anything they don't want to, it would be nice if they were a little more considerate, and it is still a douchy insensitive thing to do. Alot of people think this and that is their right, just like it is these peoples right to build a mosque there if they have the zoning and property rights.
You cannot cherry pick peoples rights to defend and which ones to sit down and shut up. You are condemning and grouping everyone who is upset about this to a bunch of intolerant threatening jerks just like you are claiming we are doing to those Muslims to be terrorists.
As far as I can tell, it's only 'insensitive' and 'douchy' to people who think all muslims are the same. THey're not.
American Muslims who are going to come to Cordoba House and pray had nothing to do with 9/11.
You're going to have to explain why it's insensitive and douchy. Again, there is a mosque 4 blocks away from 9/11. You still have not addressed this. 4 blocks away is cool, but 2 blocks is not? Why are you drawing some arbitrary line of douchiness?
American Muslims who are going to come to Cordoba House and pray had nothing to do with 9/11.
You're going to have to explain why it's insensitive and douchy. Again, there is a mosque 4 blocks away from 9/11. You still have not addressed this. 4 blocks away is cool, but 2 blocks is not? Why are you drawing some arbitrary line of douchiness?
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[quote name='IRHari']It's only 'insensitive' and 'douchy' to people who think all muslims are the same. THey're not.
American Muslims who are going to come to Cordoba House and pray had nothing to do with 9/11.
You're going to have to explain why it's insensitive and douchy. Again, there is a mosque 4 blocks away from 9/11. You still have not addressed this. 4 blocks away is cool, but 2 blocks is not? Why are you drawing some arbitrary line of douchiness?[/QUOTE]
Again a group of islamic extremists hijacked a couple of planes and in the name of Islam flew them into the towers. People of the Islamic faith have the choice to worship wherever they want but to rebuild a 100 million dollar mosque two blocks from ground zero is just insensitive. Not to mention like it or not there are extremists out there who will see this as a victory and encouragement for islamic extremism. A 100 million dollar mosque goes up while the WTC is still a pile of dust. Shame on us for not proactively rebuilding it, but the person who is building this mosque should surely see and know the effects of his actions, intended or not.
You can say its not his fault and that those extremists are not his problem, and regardless he still does have a right to build his mosque whereever he has the property and zoning rights to, but this is where the douchiness and insensitivity comes in.
American Muslims who are going to come to Cordoba House and pray had nothing to do with 9/11.
You're going to have to explain why it's insensitive and douchy. Again, there is a mosque 4 blocks away from 9/11. You still have not addressed this. 4 blocks away is cool, but 2 blocks is not? Why are you drawing some arbitrary line of douchiness?[/QUOTE]
Again a group of islamic extremists hijacked a couple of planes and in the name of Islam flew them into the towers. People of the Islamic faith have the choice to worship wherever they want but to rebuild a 100 million dollar mosque two blocks from ground zero is just insensitive. Not to mention like it or not there are extremists out there who will see this as a victory and encouragement for islamic extremism. A 100 million dollar mosque goes up while the WTC is still a pile of dust. Shame on us for not proactively rebuilding it, but the person who is building this mosque should surely see and know the effects of his actions, intended or not.
You can say its not his fault and that those extremists are not his problem, and regardless he still does have a right to build his mosque whereever he has the property and zoning rights to, but this is where the douchiness and insensitivity comes in.
depascal22
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Again, who gives a what religion a bunch of crazy people shouted out before they did something tragic and crazy. They're crazy.
It doesn't change the fact that a handful of guys from Muslim countries decided to commit an atrocity. There wasn't a conference in Mecca to come up with the plan. Al-Jazeera didn't televise a draft picking the hijackers.
Intolerant people are using this as an excuse to hate people that are different. If the hijackers had been Christian, they would've found some other thing about them to hate. It's inevitable and sad.
what religion a bunch of crazy people shouted out before they did something tragic and crazy. They're crazy.It doesn't change the fact that a handful of guys from Muslim countries decided to commit an atrocity. There wasn't a conference in Mecca to come up with the plan. Al-Jazeera didn't televise a draft picking the hijackers.
Intolerant people are using this as an excuse to hate people that are different. If the hijackers had been Christian, they would've found some other thing about them to hate. It's inevitable and sad.
[quote name='depascal22']Again, who gives a what religion a bunch of crazy people shouted out before they did something tragic and crazy. They're crazy.
It doesn't change the fact that a handful of guys from Muslim countries decided to commit an atrocity. There wasn't a conference in Mecca to come up with the plan. Al-Jazeera didn't televise a draft picking the hijackers.
Intolerant people are using this as an excuse to hate people that are different. If the hijackers had been Christian, they would've found some other thing about them to hate. It's inevitable and sad.[/QUOTE]
So you are claiming that people would have protested this mosque even if 9/11 hadn't occurred?
what religion a bunch of crazy people shouted out before they did something tragic and crazy. They're crazy.It doesn't change the fact that a handful of guys from Muslim countries decided to commit an atrocity. There wasn't a conference in Mecca to come up with the plan. Al-Jazeera didn't televise a draft picking the hijackers.
Intolerant people are using this as an excuse to hate people that are different. If the hijackers had been Christian, they would've found some other thing about them to hate. It's inevitable and sad.[/QUOTE]
So you are claiming that people would have protested this mosque even if 9/11 hadn't occurred?
depascal22
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No, I'm claiming they'd be protesting something loosely associated with the hijackers. The only way they wouldn't protest is if the hijackers were WASPs.
[quote name='IRHari']As far as I can tell, it's only 'insensitive' and 'douchy' to people who think all muslims are the same. THey're not.[/QUOTE]
I still don't see how you get around this Knoell. If it was some sanctioned religious activity then it might be different, but it was a few individuals in a terrorist group. If it was a group of white Christian men they would be treated as individuals or terrorists, not representatives of Christianity, you know that.
And I don't know if this has been discussed - what about all the "can Muslims build a mosque in your neighborhood?!?!" business Knoell? Do you justify that or is that just the bigots? Is
I still don't see how you get around this Knoell. If it was some sanctioned religious activity then it might be different, but it was a few individuals in a terrorist group. If it was a group of white Christian men they would be treated as individuals or terrorists, not representatives of Christianity, you know that.
And I don't know if this has been discussed - what about all the "can Muslims build a mosque in your neighborhood?!?!" business Knoell? Do you justify that or is that just the bigots? Is
bread's done