Plan to Build Mosque Near Ground Zero Riles Families of 9/11 Victims

[quote name='FallMoon']I know you might feel inclined to defend something that is a minority in America, but it really is not necessary to do so.

Muhammed married Aisha girl 6 years after she was born. Ha ha ha. She was born in 613 AD. By the way, don't try to claim she doesn't exist. She wrote 2,210 Hadiths. 316 important ones.[/QUOTE]
First of all, I'm an Athiest, that's why I said what I did. Sceond of all, you have to realize that not only were customs different in 600AD than today, but that was a completely different part of the world. You can't overlay your modern western morals onto event from centuries ago in a foreign country.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Let's apply conventional moral codes to the 6th and 7th centuries, everybody![/QUOTE]
You could have posted this earlier and saved me the trouble, great timing prof!;)
 
[quote name='Clak']First of all, I'm an Athiest, that's why I said what I did. Sceond of all, you have to realize that not only were customs different in 600AD than today, but that was a completely different part of the world. You can't overlay your modern western morals onto event from centuries ago in a foreign country.[/QUOTE]

↓↓↓ Let's apply 6th and 7th century moral codes to conventional times! ↓↓↓

http://spicybiscotti.com/uploads/200...of_consent.png

http://elizabethlucas.files.wordpres.../picture-2.png

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2688/hijabworld2.png

How are their customs any different now? I don't understand. Could you elaborate on that a bit more? Has the Qur'an been rewritten or something?
 
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[quote name='Knoell']Sarcastic? Yeah I got that from it but why dont you explain what you meant by it? It sounds fairly hypocritical especially from the sarcastic standpoint....Or are you attempting to claim you were sarcasticly claiming the entire no mosque crowd are bigots who want to kill muslims?[/QUOTE]

Wow, me posting a link about a Muslim cabbie getting stabbed has you that inquisitive, yet you cling to the emotional response of "too soon, too close" when it comes to building the COMMUNITY CENTER and mosque? OK, anyhoo, the sarcastic point I was making was look, here is a potential anti-mosque person who asks a guy if he's muslim, tells him "as salaam alaikum, this is your checkpoint," and slashes his throat. Effectively comparing this criminal to a terrorist, then sarcastically grouping anti-mosque protestors together to show the idiocy in grouping all muslims with the terrorists.

Didn't think my one/two sentence post needed footnotes, but there you have it.
 
[quote name='berzirk']Wow, me posting a link about a Muslim cabbie getting stabbed has you that inquisitive, yet you cling to the emotional response of "too soon, too close" when it comes to building the COMMUNITY CENTER and mosque? OK, anyhoo, the sarcastic point I was making was look, here is a potential anti-mosque person who asks a guy if he's muslim, tells him "as salaam alaikum, this is your checkpoint," and slashes his throat. Effectively comparing this criminal to a terrorist, then sarcastically grouping anti-mosque protestors together to show the idiocy in grouping all muslims with the terrorists.

Didn't think my one/two sentence post needed footnotes, but there you have it.[/QUOTE]

I'll take your word that this is what you meant. The post you made was poorly written do make the point you are conveying here.

I wonder if you guys would be pissed if the anti mosque crowd decided to hold a legal protest 2 blocks from the guys house to show the guy that they can be peaceful, and they condemn what happened to him.
 
Given the video above where they're shouting down black dude with a beard and do-rag (which evidently means he's a muslim and not a dude with a beard and do-rag), I'll place a bet on these nimrods' ability to "be peaceful."
 
[quote name='Knoell']I'll take your word that this is what you meant. The post you made was poorly written do make the point you are conveying here.

I wonder if you guys would be pissed if the anti mosque crowd decided to hold a legal protest 2 blocks from the guys house to show the guy that they can be peaceful, and they condemn what happened to him.[/QUOTE]

Irony is ironic.

If they're not violating any laws, then they could protest on the sidewalk in front of this guy's house for all I care.
 
[quote name='IRHari']"my religion's book is sacred and unassailable"

Who argued this on CAG?[/QUOTE]

Unless I'm mistaken that's pretty much the attitude that people of Abrahamic faith have about their respective sacred books.

Am I missing something? Are there any Chrisitians here who always just rip out a section of the bible because it's just a bunch of mumbo jumbo that doesn't make sense in the modern world? Is there a Christian group that will edit out a even a tiny section, sentence, or group of words from the bible because it's offensive, it goes against their personal beliefs, or it portrays an angry vengeful god that they don't really believe in? How much interpretive lattitude do the abrahamic religious leaders give their sheep (after all, if they wanted members to think for themselves why would they call them sheep?)

I guess there are groups like the Mormons who feel free to tack on more adventures involving angels, sacred stones, and magical gold plates that dissappear when you go looking for them. But I've yet to hear of any mainstream christian branch that encourages members to pick-and-choose from the bible.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Given the video above where they're shouting down black dude with a beard and do-rag (which evidently means he's a muslim and not a dude with a beard and do-rag), I'll place a bet on these nimrods' ability to "be peaceful."[/QUOTE]

Yeah that's disgusting. It really chrystalizes the bigotry, ignorance, and mob mentality occuring in this episode.

Interestingly for all the cable tv talk this really isn't being considered a big story in the middle east. They seem to be sensitive to the raw feelings left in the wake of 9/11 and there are even middle easterners who agree that it does seem too close or too soon. Middle easterners are much more focused on places such as Europe with the head scarf bans, minuret bans, and aggressive anti-Muslim legislation.

Funny that the vocal American protestors claim to be scared of Muslim intolerance, however on this issue the Muslims are acting with much more tolerance and understanding then these same protestors.
 
[quote name='FallMoon']↓↓↓ Let's apply 6th and 7th century moral codes to conventional times! ↓↓↓

http://spicybiscotti.com/uploads/200...of_consent.png

http://elizabethlucas.files.wordpres.../picture-2.png

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2688/hijabworld2.png

How are their customs any different now? I don't understand. Could you elaborate on that a bit more? Has the Qur'an been rewritten or something?[/QUOTE]
You can throw stones at a culture if you want (and much of this is cultural), but unless your own is some how perfect, you don't have much room to talk. People in glass houses or something...
 
[quote name='FallMoon']↓↓↓ Let's apply 6th and 7th century moral codes to conventional times! ↓↓↓

http://spicybiscotti.com/uploads/200...of_consent.png

http://elizabethlucas.files.wordpres.../picture-2.png

http://img339.imageshack.us/img339/2688/hijabworld2.png

How are their customs any different now? I don't understand. Could you elaborate on that a bit more? Has the Qur'an been rewritten or something?[/QUOTE]

Burqha-less women in countries in like Turkey and Jordan must make your head asplode. All Muslims follow the Quran completely right? How do you explain that?

I mean, we're painting Abrahamaic religions with a broad brush. There has to be some explanation why all Muslim women don't wear the burqha.

And what about Mary, Mother of God? She was anywhere from 14 to 17 when God knocked her up. Should we all run around and scream pedophile? No. Because we don't really know how old she was even if one guy writes that she was 14 and very innocent.

Why? Because you can't take 2 thousand year old documents at face historical value. It's like taking a snapshot of our country in 1787 and declaring that slavery was legal for all time just because the original Constitution has the three fifths clause in Article 1.

And before you say that she wrote the hadiths with her own hand. Is it like the Gospels that were written after the "actual" authors even lived? Do you have physical proof that she wrote them or did someone have a vision where she came to them and they started writing it down just like most "historical" religious texts.
 
Gotta be honest. I was seriously considering going to 8/28 Restoring Honor rally.

With a sign like this:
obama-bring-back-arrested-development.jpg

One of my co-workers was astute enough to remind me how the crowd reacted to the black guy they thought was Muslim (to be fair he was wearing a skullcap.)

Ah well, it was an interesting thought. I'd still like to go, maybe in whiteface?
 
I don't know if there are local ones, it's a March on Washington on 8/28 called 'Restoring Honor' starring Beck & Palin. It'd be cool to go but still...not ready for some bigotry lol.
 
[quote name='FallMoon']My posts are consistent and logical. I was railing against Islam's prophet. I guess it would be similar to railing against Jesus. He didn't really marry a 6 year old, though. "Christianity, Judaism, and Islam are the same! Stop attacking only one of them! Islam isn't that bad guys :(" Stop trying to cheapen the debate.

Well, those countries have the largest percentage of Muslims and therefore have 6/7th century laws. What do you think about the countries with extremely high Muslim populations putting gay people to death, letting men get married to children, and forcing women to wear hijab/burqa? It's really not something to try to defend. Well, Muslims who don't agree with those things don't agree with those things. I hope they can spread their moderate Muslim religion to the future generations.

Also, to IRHari, everyone is getting their panties in a bunch over me posting things from the Hadish, and then trying to defend the religion (without knowing anything about the religion.) Islam is assailable, but people do try to stop the infidel from ruining everyone's fun.[/QUOTE]

Why are you defending a slave-raping murderer?
 
I'm not even defending Islam, I don't really care one way or the other, to me all religions have dark sides that followers of said religions would rather not think about.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Burqha-less women in countries in like Turkey and Jordan must make your head asplode. All Muslims follow the Quran completely right? How do you explain that?

I mean, we're painting Abrahamaic religions with a broad brush. There has to be some explanation why all Muslim women don't wear the burqha.

And what about Mary, Mother of God? She was anywhere from 14 to 17 when God knocked her up. Should we all run around and scream pedophile? No. Because we don't really know how old she was even if one guy writes that she was 14 and very innocent.

Why? Because you can't take 2 thousand year old documents at face historical value. It's like taking a snapshot of our country in 1787 and declaring that slavery was legal for all time just because the original Constitution has the three fifths clause in Article 1.

And before you say that she wrote the hadiths with her own hand. Is it like the Gospels that were written after the "actual" authors even lived? Do you have physical proof that she wrote them or did someone have a vision where she came to them and they started writing it down just like most "historical" religious texts.[/QUOTE]

Nobody said that all Muslims do that. Why are you arguing against an imaginary made up point and pretending I said it? You're pulling a strawman argument but you're agreeing with me at the same time. The further they are from the Qur'an traditions, the better. I'm glad we agree on something.

Once again, I am not a Christian. Stop using Strawman arguments. It makes you look like a moron. Why do you have such a hardon for Christianity?

What's your point? What does Islam being batshit crazy have to do with Slavery in the United States? I don't see the connection.

Are you trying to claim that Aisha/Muhammed didn't exist? I don't understand what point you are trying to bring up. That she wasn't 6 years old when she married him and 9 when he raped her?


[quote name='SpazX']Why are you defending a slave-raping murderer?[/QUOTE]

What are you talking about? Why are you using Strawman arguments? I'm an atheist. Also, Islam is an Abrahamic faith. Islamic people would defend a slave-raping murderer. Why are you defending a slave-raping murderer and a pedophile? Why are you defending imaginary friends?
 
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[quote name='FallMoon']Nobody said that all Muslims do that. Why are you arguing against an imaginary made up point and pretending I said it? You're pulling a strawman argument but you're agreeing with me at the same time. The further they are from the Qur'an traditions, the better. I'm glad we agree on something.

Once again, I am not a Christian. Stop using Strawman arguments. It makes you look like a moron. Why do you have such a hardon for Christianity?

What's your point? What does Islam being batshit crazy have to do with Slavery in the United States? I don't see the connection.

Are you trying to claim that Aisha/Muhammed didn't exist? I don't understand what point you are trying to bring up. That she wasn't 6 years old when she married him and 9 when he raped her?[/QUOTE]

I'm trying to figure out why you consider 1500 year old documents as valid as the morning newspaper.

I brought up slavery because if you take one historical document or one group of documents (like the Constitution) from any period of time you could paint a society as being very different.

1500 years from now, one of your asshole descendents will argue that the ancient American empire crumbled because we were a slave owning nation. After all, it's in our Constitution right?
 
[quote name='depascal22']I'm trying to figure out why you consider 1500 year old documents as valid as the morning newspaper.

I brought up slavery because if you take one historical document or one group of documents (like the Constitution) from any period of time you could paint a society as being very different.

1500 years from now, one of your asshole descendents will argue that the ancient American empire crumbled because we were a slave owning nation. After all, it's in our Constitution right?[/QUOTE]

Another strawman. I never said 1500 year old historical documents are as valid as the morning newspaper. Are you claiming the hadith is completely fictional? Are you a professor of Islamic studies? I've never heard a claim that the hadith is fictional or that parts of it are fictional. Why are you trying to defend Islam without actually knowing what you're talking about?

I'm not painting a society as being different. I didn't write the Hadith. I'm merely quoting things from a document that is universally accepted by Muslims as truth. Are you trying to defend their crazy religion or insult them by claiming that they are worshiping false documents?

1500 years from now YOUR asshole descendants will argue that the constitution was completely fictional but also try to defend American's faith in it at the same time. Ha ha ha. I wasn't aware that Americans still owned slaves today. You know, since Muslim men can still get married to little girls.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/23/saudi-arabia-human-rights

"Why do you consider a newspaper article from 2008 as valid as 1500 year old historical documents?"
 
[quote name='Clak']I'm not even defending Islam, I don't really care one way or the other, to me all religions have dark sides that followers of said religions would rather not think about.[/QUOTE]

dark-side.jpg
 
[quote name='FallMoon']Another strawman. I never said 1500 year old historical documents are as valid as the morning newspaper. Are you claiming the hadith is completely fictional? Are you a professor of Islamic studies? I've never heard a claim that the hadith is fictional or that parts of it are fictional. Why are you trying to defend Islam without actually knowing what you're talking about?

I'm not painting a society as being different. I didn't write the Hadith. I'm merely quoting things from a document that is universally accepted by Muslims as truth. Are you trying to defend their crazy religion or insult them by claiming that they are worshiping false documents?

1500 years from now YOUR asshole descendants will argue that the constitution was completely fictional but also try to defend American's faith in it at the same time. Ha ha ha. I wasn't aware that Americans still owned slaves today. You know, since Muslim men can still get married to little girls.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/dec/23/saudi-arabia-human-rights

"Why do you consider a newspaper article from 2008 as valid as 1500 year old historical documents?"[/QUOTE]

Oh boy, you're fucking dense.

Muslim scholars claim the hadith is 100% truth the same way the Mormons cling to the Book of Mormon and the rest of Christianity clings to the Gospels. Did Buddha say every single word that's attributed to him? Probably not. You get so far away from a moment in time you not only get forgotten passages but embellishments that come with the inevitable revisions of history.

You have to take religious texts for the moral lesson and not at face value. I believe in Jesus but I can't sit here and say that he did everything that the Gospels attribute to him. Why? Because the Gospels were written decades and centuries AFTER Jesus died. I know this. That doesn't mean I can't take his message and try to live like that. That doesn't mean I can't take the message of the prophet Muhammed and model my life like his. Do I shit on George Washington and Thomas Jefferson for the sole fact that they owned slaves? No. They had grand ideas about how a republic should be in an ideal situation. They were imperfect men with grand ideas.

How about this. Your ancestors will sit there and tell us MLK was a piece of shit because he liked to bang girls on the side. Let's completely dismiss any good he might have done with his life and focus on the one bad thing he did. Kennedy was a piece of shit because he banged Marilyn Monroe right? According to your logic, man is to be judged by his worst actions and there is little room for redemption.

If you're going to sit there and claim to be atheist but somehow claim that all religious texts are 100% factual, then we have no argument because you're a fucking idiot. You claim to personally not believe a God that you're quoting but you'll quote just Him just because it furthers your argument.

You're not even a hypocrite. You're a piece of shit that just loves to argue for the sake of arguing.
 
[quote name='depascal22']

If you're going to sit there and claim to be atheist but somehow claim that all religious texts are 100% factual, then we have no argument because you're a fucking idiot. You claim to personally not believe a God that you're quoting but you'll quote just Him just because it furthers your argument.

You're not even a hypocrite. You're a piece of shit that just loves to argue for the sake of arguing.[/QUOTE]

:applause:
 
[quote name='depascal22']Did Buddha say every single word that's attributed to him? Probably not. You get so far away from a moment in time you not only get forgotten passages but embellishments that come with the inevitable revisions of history.[/QUOTE]

It is readily acknowledged by Buddhists that Gautama didn't say everything that is attributed to him. Speaking directly to your point, this doesn't bother Buddhists because the philosophy of the words is more important then who spoke them. As Gautama (probably) said: "Believe nothing, no matter where you read it, or who said it, no matter if I have said it, unless it agrees with your own reason and your own common sense."

Though I'm pretty sure you're wrong when you say "You have to take religious texts for the moral lesson and not at face value". Some religions do this, but not Abrahamic religions. Abrahamic religions put a premium on blind faith and lists of sacred rules containing stuff like 'don't eat shellfish', 'kill witches', and 'shun people of different religions' (I paraphrase but if you want the quotes I'll be happy to provide)
 
Well, since I've got nothin' better to do at this particular juncture... (EDIT: Aside from yelling at you bastards about the improper capitalization of the word "atheist". You bunch of cocks.)

Exodus 22:18, "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live." That's a pretty famous one.
Shellfish... that's... Leviticus, right? I can do this, I can... oh, hey, on the "witch" issue, Leviticus says: "A man also or woman that hath a familiar spirit, or that is a wizard, shall surely be put to death: they shall stone them with stones: their blood shall be upon them."
I'd totally forgotten about that one. And... ah! Leviticus 11. That's the food one. "Whatsoever hath no fins nor scales in the waters, that shall be an abomination unto you."
Now, "shun people of different religions", eh? I'm pretty sure I could keep the Old Testament theme rollin', but from Corinthians... "Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?"
 
[quote name='camoor']Though I'm pretty sure you're wrong when you say "You have to take religious texts for the moral lesson and not at face value". Some religions do this, but not Abrahamic religions. Abrahamic religions put a premium on blind faith and lists of sacred rules containing stuff like 'don't eat shellfish', 'kill witches', and 'shun people of different religions' (I paraphrase but if you want the quotes I'll be happy to provide)[/QUOTE]

But we've moved beyond that now. There are no more witch hunts (at least in America) and most Christians eat food that would be considered unclean
 
fuck all that shit. Shellfish taste good.

Know what else tastes good? Pork. Every part of a goddamn pig tastes good.

Until god comes down and tells me his goddamn self that eating pig is wrong, I'm diggin' on swine.
 
I had bison at a restaurant in Colorado once. Can't remember the name for the life of me.

Had burro burgers in Mexico too. No comparison to Bison meat, though.
 
[quote name='Clak']I'd like to try Yak, but I hear they smell like rotting beef carcasses.[/QUOTE]
I've never heard anything particularly negative about yak.

I can't recall the exact reviews of yak meat I have been given, but they at no point mentioned anything about smelling like rotting beef.
 
[quote name='depascal22']But we've moved beyond that now. There are no more witch hunts (at least in America) and most Christians eat food that would be considered unclean[/QUOTE]

Just so you're clear, a fundie like, oh, the last prez for the 8 years believes that every single word in the Bible is literal truth.

The thing about Christians is you can always find a sizable percentage who are willing to crusade on just about any ol' whacky-ass part of the Bible. And the rest are happy to silently sit there nodding their heads and casting their votes, dutifully playing their part in furthering the bigotry, intolerance, and persecution.

The pastor whose prayer Sarah Palin says helped her to become governor of Alaska founded his ministry with a witch hunt against a Kenyan woman whom he accused of causing car accidents through demonic spells.
Click to expand...

http://www.alternet.org/election08/...ral_success_to_prayer_of_kenyan_witch_hunter/

As in VP candidate Palin. Funny thing that it doesn't seem to have bothered her Christian political base one iota.
 
[quote name='camoor']Just so you're clear, a fundie like, oh, the last prez for the 8 years believes that every single word in the Bible is literal truth.

The thing about Christians is you can always find a sizable percentage who are willing to crusade on just about any ol' whacky-ass part of the Bible. And the rest are happy to silently sit there nodding their heads and casting their votes, dutifully playing their part in furthering the bigotry, intolerance, and persecution.



http://www.alternet.org/election08/...ral_success_to_prayer_of_kenyan_witch_hunter/

As in VP candidate Palin. Funny thing that it doesn't seem to have bothered her Christian political base one iota.[/QUOTE]

Point taken. I guess America is still as backward as it was "back in the good ole days".
 
[quote name='SpazX']Too close too soon IRHari. It's not that people don't like Muslims, they just don't want to see a mosque built within only 10,000 blocks of ground zero. If they would just move it a little further![/QUOTE]

Yep because the one person who set fire to a mosque in Tenn represents all people who arent in favor of a mosque next to WTC.

What happened to not expanding an individuals crimes to an entire group? You sure do hate it when people do it with muslims.
 
[quote name='Knoell']Yep because the one person who set fire to a mosque in Tenn represents all people who arent in favor of a mosque next to WTC.

What happened to not expanding an individuals crimes to an entire group? You sure do hate it when people do it with muslims.[/QUOTE]

I hate jokes (I wouldn't assume it's one individual though that is just totally different from everybody else).

Anyway, you've defended opposition to the mosque in New York as legitimate - based on its proximity to ground zero. The opposition to mosques elsewhere are illegitimate right? What do you think explains the opposition to other mosques/Islamic centers/etc. in other parts of the country?
 
[quote name='SpazX']I hate jokes (I wouldn't assume it's one individual though that is just totally different from everybody else).

Anyway, you've defended opposition to the mosque in New York as legitimate - based on its proximity to ground zero. The opposition to mosques elsewhere are illegitimate right? What do you think explains the opposition to other mosques/Islamic centers/etc. in other parts of the country?[/QUOTE]

The same reason people can get upset about anything they damn well choose. When it comes to arson, whoever did it went too far, but what are we going to start censoring what people can and cannot be upset about now? I know people were upset, and started campaigning about a wal-mart being in my old hometown, even though wal-mart has every right to build where they wanted does this mean that their being upset is any less legitimate?

You would be pretty damn well blind to think that the only thing people are getting upset about and reacting the way they do is because of mosques. People get up and rally all over the country against all kinds of things every day. The only reason we hear about this crap day after day is because islam is a hot topic right now.

I also love how you hypocritical douchebags on this forum flaunt your dislike for and bash christianity and catholicism to no end, but the moment someone is unfavorable to muslims, gasp those intolerant bigots.
 
[quote name='Knoell']The same reason people can get upset about anything they damn well choose. When it comes to arson, whoever did it went too far, but what are we going to start censoring what people can and cannot be upset about now? I know people were upset, and started campaigning about a wal-mart being in my old hometown, even though wal-mart has every right to build where they wanted does this mean that their being upset is any less legitimate?

You would be pretty damn well blind to think that the only thing people are getting upset about and reacting the way they do is because of mosques. People get up and rally all over the country against all kinds of things every day. The only reason we hear about this crap day after day is because islam is a hot topic right now.

I also love how you hypocritical douchebags on this forum flaunt your dislike for and bash christianity and catholicism to no end, but the moment someone is unfavorable to muslims, gasp those intolerant bigots.[/QUOTE]

Nobody here endorsed any kind of arson or otherwise violent attack on christians. You should be ashamed of yourself for proposing such a *ridiculous* strawman. It doesn't warrant a response, but the reason I do is because I think you're dumb enough that you're not deliberately drawing such a conclusion.

Slashing a cabbie's throat and arson are more than isolated, unrelated incidents, and they are FAR more than being "unfavorable to muslims." You should be beyond fucking ashamed of yourself.
 
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