Police beating caught on tape

[quote name='zionoverfire']I love the mention of a situation completely unrelated to the topic at hand.[/QUOTE]

It's a situation of excessive force being used. I don't think you'd be an old man on bourbon street, so I couldn't use that.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']It's a situation of excessive force being used. I don't think you'd be an old man on bourbon street, so I couldn't use that.[/QUOTE]

You forgot the whole resisting arrest factor.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']You forgot the whole resisting arrest factor.[/QUOTE]

If you were that old man, you would think the officers were excused from beating you?
 
[quote name='Msut77']I really dont think Zion watched the video.[/QUOTE]

The video was under 2 mintues long and had shit for quality, from the little it does show a police officer walks up, guy does something, gets his head smashed into a wall, falls down and then struggles and a whole bunch of cops jump on him.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']If you were that old man, you would think the officers were excused from beating you?[/QUOTE]

Camoor made the same argument on page 1, although he put a better case forward. The victim cannot be expected to have an impartial view, that's why we don't have an eye for an eye justice system.
 
>>The video was under 2 mintues long and had shit for quality

Quality was not that bad.

And all in all Id say 2 minutes is more than enough of an elderly asskicking fest.

You really did not watch the video.

fucking pathetic.

They wail on the guy not just "jump" on him.
 
[quote name='Msut77']

Quality was not that bad.

And all in all Id say 2 minutes is more than enough of an elderly asskicking fest.

You really did not watch the video.

fucking pathetic.

They wail on the guy not just "jump" on him.[/QUOTE]

Apperently you're the one who didn't watch it, about the only real ass beating you see is a few clips of the guys head being smashed into the wall that is nearly blocked by a mounted officer then he struggles with a number of police officers when he's on the ground. If that last part is an asskicking then I just saw 2 cops beat the shit out of a shoplifter at Safeway last week.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Camoor made the same argument on page 1, although he put a better case forward. The victim cannot be expected to have an impartial view, that's why we don't have an eye for an eye justice system.[/QUOTE]

Camoor added the element of a family member. I'm asking do you think that would be a proper response if it happened to you. The victim does not have an impartial view, but you are not an actual victim, just thinking of a hypothetical situation, and it does not involve any loved one.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23'] I'm asking do you think that would be a proper response if it happened to you. [/QUOTE]

Again, I'm not looking at things from his end but rather from the scope of the situation as an observer.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Fine then whenever they surround a suspect's house with snipers and 20 SWAT members break down his front door police brutailty is occuring. Whenever more than the minimum number of police required to subdue a suspect are involved excessive force is being used and so that's police brutality. Those all seem to be pretty acceptable uses of excessive force, or should I say by your own definition police brutality.[/QUOTE]

Wow. You are retarded. There's a difference between taking a potentially armed suspect before they can injure themselves or others and/or destory evidence and beating a suspect they know has no weapons (he was pat down prior to the beating). There is also a difference between police using roit techniques on a huge group of easily provoked and violent people, who would hurt police or innocent bystanders and damage private/public property and beating a single old, drunk man to the point of intense bleeding. New Orleans or not, it is not acceptable. And to compare to a more level event, where are the New York City police beatings on or near 9/11? There arn't any. Same stress, hell even more since they don't know the end of the storm/attack has past, and yet NY police actted within the law.

I just hope you get pulled over for some stupid shit and have some stressed out cops just release some dogs on you...
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Again, I'm not looking at things from his end but rather from the scope of the situation as an observer.[/QUOTE]

I don't see the emotional involvement when debating a hypothetical event that hasn't actually happened to you. But, either way, how is this excusable? You have a victim of stressed police, what do you say to the victim here? That you think that it's ok they were beat up because the police were stressed?
 
[quote name='chaostic_2k1'] And to compare to a more level event, where are the New York City police beatings on or near 9/11? There arn't any. Same stress, hell even more since they don't know the end of the storm/attack has past, and yet NY police actted within the law.
[/QUOTE]

Completely different type of stress, you're comparing apples and oranges. Stress after 9/11 was due to a mysterious outward enemy while stress in NO was due the overall shape of the city, rampant looting and crime.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23'] But, either way, how is this excusable? You have a victim of stressed police, what do you say to the victim here? That you think that it's ok they were beat up because the police were stressed?[/QUOTE]

I think this type of even should be expected when you over worked a stressed police force. The city should pay off the injured victim and claim responsibility for putting the officers into this whole hurricane situation without proper training or numbers and the city should work to ensure proper training of its police staff for future emergencies rather than place the entire blame on the officers. I do not believe the blame can be laid entirely on any one group in this case.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']I think this type of even should be expected when you over worked a stressed police force. The city should pay off the injured victim and claim responsibility for putting the officers into this whole hurricane situation without proper training or numbers and the city should work to ensure proper training of its police staff for future emergencies rather than place the entire blame on the officers. I do not believe the blame can be laid entirely on any one group in this case.[/QUOTE]

The new orleans police force is, at best, corrupt. Allegations of brutality is nothing new there. What you're essentially saying is that the city will cover there ass, that they will be given free reign to essentially do what they want, due to current conditions, assuming it's not too blatant (ie. randomly firing on civilians). If police are allowed to act violently without repercussions, what good is that? That's only going to make the next guy more likely to go off, because there's no reason to believe they will be punished.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']The new orleans police force is, at best, corrupt. Allegations of brutality is nothing new there. What you're essentially saying is that the city will cover there ass, that they will be given free reign to essentially do what they want, due to current conditions, assuming it's not too blatant (ie. randomly firing on civilians). If police are allowed to act violently without repercussions, what good is that? That's only going to make the next guy more likely to go off, because there's no reason to believe they will be punished.[/QUOTE]

So you're assuming these officers are corrupt brutal cops and have done this type of thing before? If so I'm sure CNN would love to have an indepth interview with you right about now.

and I didn't not say the police should not face any repercussions, mearly that firing them all and placing all the blame on them is as silly as blamming the hurricane, the old drunk man, or all the officers who took off when things got bad.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']and I didn't not say the police should not face any repercussions, mearly that firing them all and placing all the blame on them is as silly as blamming the hurricane, the old drunk man, or all the officers who took off when things got bad.[/QUOTE]

What's wrong with recognizing that the officers who ran when their country needed them the most are weak cowards who represent America's most selfish and morally-bankrupt segment?
 
[quote name='camoor']What's wrong with recognizing that the officers who ran when their country needed them the most are weak cowards who represent America's most selfish and morally-bankrupt segment?[/QUOTE]

Nothing, although I expect they were far more selfish then morally deficient. Afterall our president has plenty of morals, even if he doesn't follow them he seems to expect everyone else to.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Nothing, although I expect they were far more selfish then morally deficient.[/QUOTE]

Well, we agree on that point.

I don't believe that NO officers who are administering beat-downs on petty criminals and physically threatening the press should be given carte blanche, but I doubt you will be swayed based on your previous posts. To be honest it reminds me of that time when Scrubking gleefully posted that a "terrorist" had been shot in the head in London and he couldn't be more happy - at least SK had the decency to shut up and never post here again when that story unraveled into international embarrassment for England.
 
Those guys really wailed on that old dude. I saw it on TV. It was pretty violent.

Seriously.....It was fucked up.
 
[quote name='camoor']Well, we agree on that point.

I don't believe that NO officers who are administering beat-downs on petty criminals and physically threatening the press should be given carte blanche, but I doubt you will be swayed based on your previous posts. To be honest it reminds me of that time when Scrubking gleefully posted that a "terrorist" had been shot in the head in London and he couldn't be more happy - at least SK had the decency to shut up and never post here again when that story unraveled into international embarrassment for England.[/QUOTE]

:lol: Yeah I do remember that story, I always wondered what happened to him.

Until I see more evidence that such beat downs are a frequent occurance and not a one time event I will chalk it up to stress, not pleasant but something that should be expected due to the situation.
 
[quote name='Sleepkyng']dude, excessive stress is not a justification for heinous acts of violence.

They call them war crimes for a reason.[/QUOTE]

Ever noticed how war crimes seem to pop up after the war? How long was the prisoner abuse problem going on it Iraq before it was dealt with?

People snap and do vicious things, I find it rather ironic that everyone immediately becomes concerned with the punishment phase and not how to prevent such occurances in the future.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']So you're assuming these officers are corrupt brutal cops and have done this type of thing before? If so I'm sure CNN would love to have an indepth interview with you right about now.
[/QUOTE]

I'm saying that this police force, along with many others, already has issues with brutality and corruption. Similar events are not unheard of in new orleans. The corruption in new orleans needs to be tackled normally, there's no point in simply excusing it now. Since new orleans has a abnormal amount of corruption and police brutality, you need to do whatever you can to continue those events from occuring. Shielding officers, whether they normally would engage in this behavior or not, is simply sending the wrong message to those who would engage in illegal behavior normally.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Ever noticed how war crimes seem to pop up after the war? How long was the prisoner abuse problem going on it Iraq before it was dealt with?

People snap and do vicious things, I find it rather ironic that everyone immediately becomes concerned with the punishment phase and not how to prevent such occurances in the future.[/QUOTE]

While many different steps need to be taken to prevent such acts, punishing those who commit them are one. No matter what the changes you make, if you make soldiers, police etc. above punishment then little will change. You need to take many different steps, as well as driving home the fact that those who violates those rules will be punished.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']I'm saying that this police force, along with many others, already has issues with brutality and corruption. Similar events are not unheard of in new orleans. The corruption in new orleans needs to be tackled normally, there's no point in simply excusing it now. Since new orleans has a abnormal amount of corruption and police brutality, you need to do whatever you can to continue those events from occuring. Shielding officers, whether they normally would engage in this behavior or not, is simply sending the wrong message to those who would engage in illegal behavior normally.[/QUOTE]

And sending those few officers who were caught on tape to fry and claiming the rest of the department is free of corruption and abuse is? I've seen no information thus far that suggests that these officers have ever done anything like this in the past and until then I will assume it was a one time event. A 2 minute movie detailing one offense isn't enough information for me to condemn someone on.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']While many different steps need to be taken to prevent such acts, punishing those who commit them are one. No matter what the changes you make, if you make soldiers, police etc. above punishment then little will change.[/QUOTE]

And if you make a few men into scape goats and cover up systamatic problems nothing will change either.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']And sending those few officers who were caught on tape to fry and claiming the rest of the department is free of corruption and abuse is? I've seen no information thus far that suggests that these officers have ever done anything like this in the past and until then I will assume it was a one time event. A 2 minute movie detailing one offense isn't enough information for me to condemn someone on.[/QUOTE]

I stated the opposite, that the rest of the department is not free of corruption and abuse. If it were just a few officers it would be easy. But if you can make officers believe that corrupt behavior and violent outbursts will be punished, it will make them think twice before engaging in such behavior. So you make an exmaple out of a few cops who acted abnormally, they still engaged in illegal, reprehensible behavior. Beyond leading to more illegal acts, the belief that police are above the law makes their relations with the community, and therefore their effectiveness, worse.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']And if you make a few men into scape goats and cover up systamatic problems nothing will change either.[/QUOTE]

Where did I say that? Where did I suggest anything like that? Nowhere did I say to ignore half the problem. For example, in Iraq the solution is to change the environment that allows abuses to occur, it would be a horrible decision to decide that those actually committing the crimes should go unpunished. Punishing those responsible, low and high ranking, are one of the things that need to be done.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']I stated the opposite, that the rest of the department is not free of corruption and abuse. If it were just a few officers it would be easy. But if you can make officers believe that corrupt behavior and violent outbursts will be punished, it will make them think twice before engaging in such behavior. So you make an exmaple out of a few cops who acted abnormally, they still engaged in illegal, reprehensible behavior. Beyond leading to more illegal acts, the belief that police are above the law makes their relations with the community, and therefore their effectiveness, worse.[/QUOTE]

That of course assumes the corruption is at the lower levels. If you have a system corrupt throughout removing a few cops for abuse will appear to fix the problem but in the end won't fix anything. Oh sure everyone else will be on their best behavior for a few months but in a few months everything will be the same.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Where did I say that? Where did I suggest anything like that?[/QUOTE]

I've seen nothing from you recently suggesting any action or problems involving the overall department, mearly your problem with these individuals. Now you suddenly proclaim the department corrupt, yet you seem to think that firing a few guys is going to solve this.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']That of course assumes the corruption is at the lower levels. If you have a system corrupt throughout removing a few cops for abuse will appear to fix the problem but in the end won't fix anything. Oh sure everyone else will be on their best behavior for a few months but in a few months everything will be the same.[/QUOTE]

That's why you need to work on both levels. And you remove the cops, or suspend etc., when the situation calls for it, not just one time. You improve the behavior of the force, and its relations with the community by removing, and making examples of, corrupt cops.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']I've seen nothing from you recently suggesting any action or problems involving the overall department, mearly your problem with these individuals. Now you suddenly proclaim the department corrupt, yet you seem to think that firing a few guys is going to solve this.[/QUOTE]

The police force as a whole is. But you deal with each level equally. Right now the issue is low level cops, you need to remove individuals engaged in this behavior as well as change the environment. Both need to be done to succeed.
 
>>And if you make a few men into scape goats and cover up systamatic problems nothing will change either.
__________________


You set an example.

Point out that it isnt tolerated.
 
[quote name='Msut77']>>And if you make a few men into scape goats and cover up systamatic problems nothing will change either.
__________________


You set an example.

Point out that it isnt tolerated.[/QUOTE]

Which works for a few months then things go back to normal. If corruption really is prevalent you aren't going to solve it with some bullshit quick fix.
 
>>And sending those few officers who were caught on tape to fry and claiming the rest of the department is free of corruption and abuse is?


Talk about an argument no one made.

>>Which works for a few months then things go back to normal.

And? If it happens again you kick those guys to the curb as well.

Seeing as your plan means do nothing and cover for the beaters....

Id say your opinion means nada.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']That's why you need to work on both levels. And you remove the cops, or suspend etc., when the situation calls for it, not just one time. You improve the behavior of the force, and its relations with the community by removing, and making examples of, corrupt cops.[/QUOTE]

And who's going to do this? The Police Chief? The Govenor? The media and its 15 minute attention span?

Removing a few cops will do nothing but allow a department that needs to be revamped to ignore the real issue.
 
[quote name='Msut77']

And? If it happens again you kick those guys to the curb as well.

Seeing as your plan means do nothing and cover for the beaters....

Id say your opinion means nada.[/QUOTE]

Except that won't happen seeing as by that point the media will be long gone from the city.

and yes but plan involves what you do about a few cops in one instance, glad you finally realize that.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']And who's going to do this? The Police Chief? The Govenor? The media and its 15 minute attention span?

Removing a few cops will do nothing but allow a department that needs to be revamped to ignore the real issue.[/QUOTE]

The department is not going to improve by allowing police who have engaged in reprehensible illegal behavior to remain on the force. It further sends the message that the force will do nothing to prevent such actions. Unless you can somehow argue that removing the cops will increase the corruption level, then I don't see your point.
 
>>Removing a few cops will do nothing but allow a department that needs to be revamped to ignore the real issue.

So your plan is to fire them all not just the beaters?

>>and yes but plan involves what you do about a few cops in one instance,

And your plan involves what?

Flux Capacitators and the Space Time Continium?

Id still bet all I got that you did not watch the video.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']The department is not going to improve by allowing police who have engaged in reprehensible illegal behavior to remain on the force. It further sends the message that the force will do nothing to prevent such actions. Unless you can somehow argue that removing the cops will increase the corruption level, then I don't see your point.[/QUOTE]

My point is that I don't see it having any long term impact on this supposed corruption level, so it doesn't affect my opinion on this case. The department could be entirely free of corruption and you'd still want to see them hang so the point is moot.
 
[quote name='Msut77']>>Removing a few cops will do nothing but allow a department that needs to be revamped to ignore the real issue.

So your plan is to fire them all not just the beaters?

>>and yes but plan involves what you do about a few cops in one instance,

And your plan involves what?

Flux Capacitators and the Space Time Continium?

Id still bet all I got that you did not watch the video.[/QUOTE]

My plan is nothing because I don't really have one. I know of no corruption in the NO police department and I don't see any evidence yet of corruption in the officers involved. So my pervious opinions on what should happen do not change.

and for the 5th time I watched the video, then I watched it again. Then you accused me of not watching the video so I watched it a 3rd and 4th time. The guy's head gets slammed into the wall pretty hard a couple of time while a horse blocks most of the view, a bunch of cops restrain him and a reporter gets shoved into a parked car and bitchout by some officer while holding his press pass out.

The one thing I hate about videos like this is you don't get to see what happened before or afterwards, just a few minute clip in the middle of an event.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']My point is that I don't see it having any long term impact on this supposed corruption level, so it doesn't affect my opinion on this case. The department could be entirely free of corruption and you'd still want to see them hang so the point is moot.[/QUOTE]

Yes, because it would be assault and you could remove the cop and the problem would be solved. But, in this case, there is a practical side to it due to the rampant corruption, beyond punishing the individual cop.
 
[quote name='alonzomourning23']Yes, because it would be assault and you could remove the cop and the problem would be solved. But, in this case, there is a practical side to it due to the rampant corruption, beyond punishing the individual cop.[/QUOTE]

Unless of course these cops weren't corrupt, so the tape wasn't confiscated and in their place a few more corrupt cops will be hired.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Unless of course these cops weren't corrupt, so the tape wasn't confiscated and in their place a few more corrupt cops will be hired.[/QUOTE]

No one can forsee the level of corruption that new cops will pose, therefore it's unfair to assume that if corrupt cops are booted, corrupt cops will replace them.

However, not doing anything about the other cops doesn't solve the problem of the outright illegality of the other cops' actions. Beating a man who was merely intoxicated is excessive force, and by all accounts armed assault. Just because a man is a police officer does not mean they're higher than the law and does not mean they can break the law.
 
[quote name='Msut77']Why is that people (looking at you ZOF) think willful and wanton ignorance is an argument?[/QUOTE]

Why is it that some people assume beliefs and rumors can be considered fact?
 
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