Pro Wrestling discussion topic--WWE, AEW, ROH, Impact, New Japan, indies

Or you could just not go to a WWE show instead. :)

A lot of what he said that can be generalized to any WWE wrestler (or any wrestler period) seems to center around the "independent contractor" vs "employee" issue that WWE has been exploiting for decades now. A few wrestlers (Raven, Kanyon, and ???, I think?) tried to file a suit against WWE years ago, but it was tossed out because it did not apply retroactively. An on-contract WWE wrestler could easily have their day in court contesting the validity of their contract and/or whether or not the WWE practice is legal (i.e., true independent contractors should have a lot more leverage in where and when they work outside of WWE, while employees would require benefits packages).

I'm curious why Punk, who in the episode often talked about doing things "for the boys", decided against it. I'm not judging him either way, but just curious.

 
Thanks for posting the link, Myke.

Ryback missing that gorilla press slam and sending Punk soaring to the side of the table, onto the ground, was pretty brutal. Consider the concurrent injuries Punk had during that time, and that would anger anyone. And we've all heard stories about Vince giving people the run-around. It's hard not to side with Punk.
 
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Here is the press slam.

 
This was from a post I made on Giant Bomb, but I really didn't want to retype all this with slightly different wording regarding the Punk stuff.

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The weird thing is, I don't think there was much revealed in that interview that was terribly surprising, it's just that when a top guy says it, it does a lot to reemphasize it:

*The company is insular and bullheaded, and will do things that legitimately hurt business just because they refuse to acknowledge the fans may want something different than what they have planned.

*All the crowing the company does about health and safety (concussions, time off, and drug use) only applies if it goes with the company plans. The primary purpose of it is PR, if it helps some guys along the way, it's a side benefit.

*HHH has a personal issue with Punk and treats him like he's not worthy of the same respect he'd give other guys at a main event level.

*The company is petty and vindictive towards estranged talent, almost to a bizarre level (see the post it note over Punk's face in the Warrior doc, or editing out the huge reaction he got at the video game roster reveal) and will attempt to do things that flat out break the law because they think it doesn't apply to them.

I'm not disregarding that Punk can be a total prick and has some bitterness (which he even admits), but don't be dumb, most of this is stuff we've known for years to some degree
 
See, I disagree that it's stuff we *know*. We don't work for the company, we don't know the people in it. We can certainly speculate, and there are some obvious things, sure ("goodwill" PR, like welless promotion, are to avoid scrutiny and actually having a sincere policy).

But having a "top guy" is one thing. He's also in the company and we aren't. A "top guy" has less to be bitter about compared to, say, someone who got sandbagged with a "3 Man Band" caliber gimmick for the entirety of their career (Colt's interview with Drew McIntyre the other week was pretty rad). The "top guy" walks while he IS the top guy, and there's little incentive to think his revelations are out of backlash or bitterness. It doesn't reinforce what we already know because we didn't know these things - we strongly suspected them.

The depth to which he talks about the concussion tests, the roundabout booking of Punk into physical segments when he's recovering for elbow injury, or eye surgery - this is new info, this presents the company in a new light. Having the on site physician clear Punk for physical activity *over the phone* with Andrews is, as Punk notes, some "witch doctor shit." That's detail we lacked about the company's disregard for the physical well being of their performers. Listening to him talk about how hurt he was while working AND while asking for time off - it makes you think about how hurt guys *must* be in order to be granted time off.

Getting fired on his wedding day is really small, really petty. The concussion test he passed was revelatory. Being booked into a match when not being cleared to wrestle is revelatory. There's a lot of stuff in the interview that confirms our suspicions, but honestly, it's the height of smart mark condescension to think that Punk brought nothing new to the table in this interview.

 
mykevermin said:
See, I disagree that it's stuff we *know*. We don't work for the company, we don't know the people in it. We can certainly speculate, and there are some obvious things, sure
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Obviously no one knows "FOR SURE," but eventually you've seen enough information presented to you to make a decision on what you believe is correct. If you don't, you just ride the "well I guess it COULD be true but there's no way to know for sure, so I won't judge anyone!" train that you could apply to literally any controversy (ie "I don't know if Cosby raped those girls because I wasn't there!")

I've seen enough behavior and evidence in the "modern era" (ie post-Backlund) to make a decision on what I believe that company is all about. If someone doesn't want to make any judgment on them since they were not physically present, that's fine. It's just wrestling, there are probably more important things people should be agonizing over.
 
mykevermin said:
Or you could just not go to a WWE show instead. :)

A lot of what he said that can be generalized to any WWE wrestler (or any wrestler period) seems to center around the "independent contractor" vs "employee" issue that WWE has been exploiting for decades now. A few wrestlers (Raven, Kanyon, and ???, I think?) tried to file a suit against WWE years ago, but it was tossed out because it did not apply retroactively. An on-contract WWE wrestler could easily have their day in court contesting the validity of their contract and/or whether or not the WWE practice is legal (i.e., true independent contractors should have a lot more leverage in where and when they work outside of WWE, while employees would require benefits packages).

I'm curious why Punk, who in the episode often talked about doing things "for the boys", decided against it. I'm not judging him either way, but just curious.
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I'm thinking that WWE would tie it up in court so long, their strategy would be to bankrupt Punk.

 
KaneRobot said:
Obviously no one knows "FOR SURE," but eventually you've seen enough information presented to you to make a decision on what you believe is correct.
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More or less what I was trying to get across was that there have been enough people who are perceived to have ulterior motives to their shit-talking that it creates room for plausible deniability that WWE is that bad. Beyond that, for a company who wants to make money (i.e., the reason for having a business in the first place), focusing on petty, vindictive, and poor business decisions seems just pure fucking anathema. WWE also has a history of bringing people back into the fold (Warrior, Bret, etc.) who we felt were never-ever-ever-EVER welcome back that the smallness was...well, hard to fathom.

If you feel confident, or that this interview didn't have much revelatory info, well, good on you. I can't tell you what your reaction is any more than you can tell me what mine is. In Punk I heard someone who left while on top, with no reason to have a negative attitude, talk about the company activity in a level of detail that never felt quite so focused, calm, and well articulated before.

Shrug.

 
The thing that speaks to me about this whole situation is that more or less Punk is we assumed a lot about how the company worked. This put on full display for us in such a way that the WWE is pretty much on par with Walmart in how they treat their workers. Linda deserved to lose that senate race. Vince deserved to fail at securing a proper networking deal because he is a carny motherfucker through and through. And every setback that has hit this company over the last ten years is well deserved.

I want to love the WWE like I want to love Nintendo. Most of that is my nostalgia for both those companies. But looking at it first hand I'd take a job at WWE as fast as I'd take one in Walmart: never. Punk is a kind of guy that I liked for what he said and his anti-authority attitude, unlike Austin, was pretty much Punk through and through. That's what I respected about the guy. And to see them treat him so shitty to the point where he could have died is pretty god awful. 

 
You can't give too much crap to Todd on that one, just something of the times though I'm not sure why he needed that sheet anyway. Nobody wanted his autograph. Dok and Bruce though, those are some good ones. I'd personally spit between them or print one on each side. Dok is creepy and Bruce's is just sad as hell. Also, who the hell actually got Bruce's autograph? Was it a lost bet? A joke?

 
Almost forgot about wwe.com BF sales so grabbed those two Daniel Bryan and Hulk Hogan shirts for $3.99 each after 20% promo code and got free shipping on it. Good deal

 
I watched that Mick Foley documentary, "I Am Santa", on Netflix earlier. Very interesting; not what I expected. I didn't know there were men who got paid to do "Sexy Santa" photo shoots.
 
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JP said:
You can't give too much crap to Todd on that one, just something of the times though I'm not sure why he needed that sheet anyway. Nobody wanted his autograph. Dok and Bruce though, those are some good ones. I'd personally spit between them or print one on each side. Dok is creepy and Bruce's is just sad as hell. Also, who the hell actually got Bruce's autograph? Was it a lost bet? A joke?
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Todd Pettengill, because his John Henson wanna-be white spot wasn't douchey enough on WWF Mania, so he continues looking even worse as he gets older.

T3egaQN.jpg


 
I forgot to share this yesterday when I saw it. Happened Saturday night. I was actually watching the game itself on TV.

http://youtu.be/s0OUXMp0kpg
 
Yeah i was watching that game too but I didn't catch that part.  Punk seems like a different person now that he's out of wrestling, so much happier (at least in the eyes of the public).

 
I joined it last night and love it. It sucks that I can't watch it on TV with my OUYA or Fire TV Stick, but it's a damn fine browser-based service and the VQ is amazing.

Checked out the Network today. Raw 11-20-95 - the Diesel worked shoot from this got covered on the F4W Board, and when I saw it was also the HBK concussion show, I had to watch it.

http://jayreviewsthings.blogspot.com/2014/12/wwf-raw-11-30-95-hbk-concussion-show.html

Really interesting show to watch 19 years later. You've got the Diesel "out of character" bit, Vince being referred to as a vague executive, but more than the announcer role, and the perfectly-done HBK angle. The thing with that is that treated it like it was real and actually took the time to let it breathe. Now, they never do that and you're just beaten over the head with IT'S A SHOW, IT'S FAKE, WE'RE PLAYING A PART, WE'RE ALL CHARACTERS!

 
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Just signed up, cant wait to watch Wrestle Kingdom. Wish they'll add English support soon cause there's still a bunch of stuff that Chrome wont autotranslate.

 
Well, their first appearance on Raw and they've already resorted to playing the *These guys are fun!!!" card with New Day. That act is dead already.

Cole's phony-as-fuck smiley voice when he's trying to express joy is still the worst thing I've heard on commentary, probably ever.
 
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That was the best thing The Miz has ever done.

Otherwise, this Raw is just a series of teases.  You guys wanted Sting-Undertaker? You got it tonight

... in video game form.

 
I can't reconcile the legacy of horribly racist caricatures in WWE with The New Day. Maybe I'm wrong, and this is all from the minds of the dudes involved. But it still makes me *horribly* uncomfortable to watch.

WWE still lacks cultural nuance. Kofi Kingston was "Jamaican," because they thought fans couldn't wrap their heads around "born in Ghana, grew up in Connecticut." Xavier Woods has a fucking PhD (at least I think he does). Rusev is Bulgarian (a European country with a semi-capitalist economy and a Democratically elected parliamentary government) - he has a *tattoo* of the fucking country on his shoulder. And they quickly turn him into "Putin loving Commie Russkie," like it's 1985 still.

It's disappointing to see Cesaro relegated to nowheresville status (same with Tyson Kidd, but he's sadly always been there), especially after the great matches he had this year as well as the idea that WWE was getting behind him early in 2014. What happened?

With only a few exceptions, the roster feels corny and cartoony - like the show is the same boring format (25-minute opening monologue) with the same boring overarching villain (the "boss" character who constantly makes decisions with the intent of destroying the company - previously McMahon, then every GM ever, then The Authority, now the "anonymous GM) - but the roster is like one fucking "High Energy" or "Men on a Mission" short of the "WWF New Generation" era. At least then HBK, Razor, and a few others put on killer main event matches.

At least I can watch the Sixers play awful basketball instead. :)

 
Show started with an Authority-filled recap video before Cena and Seth talked for 15 minutes and a wacky brawl broke out to make TLC PPV matches. This felt like a go-home segment, but dragged on for ages. Random tag team turmoil featured some random teams and was just a vehicle for The New Day, who is doomed, and lost after getting just one win in this big multi-team clusterfuck. Usos won after some bullshit with the Bunny and Rose. Vince appeared from his limo with a bright red phone cover and a red, white, and blue tie.

Rowan's backstory as a genius wine maker is unexpected, and boy did his match with Show not get over. You couldn't even hear each fan - NO ONE MADE ANY NOISE. Then Show hit him with steps to maybe set up a Stairs match at the PPV or something. THE NEW AND IMPROVED FANDAGO shockingly didn't help matters. They've simplified Rosa's part to her just being on her knees and not moving. Well, might as well stick to her strengths. He won via forfeit over Swagger due to Zeb being hurt.

Rusev said he did it and Lana praised Russia to the tune of the Pledge of Allegiance, then he brawled with Swagger for a bit. This again. Loved the big slap from Jimmy Uso to Miz for talking to his wife and OFFERING TO ADVANCE HER CAREER. What a dickhead. Bray faced Truth again. Beat him, and Dean BROKE THE SACRED ROCKING CHAIR!  AJ won a nothing tag match. MICK AND NOELLE FOLEY HAD A FUN SEGMENT AS SANTA AND AN ELF! Heyman cut a fantastic promo about Brock being special and THE REIGNING, UNDISPUTED WWE CHAMPION OF THE WORLD! Six man tag was just 30 minutes of boredom. After a century of stuff, Dolph won with a sunset flip and then the match means nothing because a brawl breaks out to set up WWE'S DEMOLITION DERBY KNOWN AS TLC! Parade of finishers to Show, ending with Cena, who needed help to lift Kane, doing the AA on his own. A 4-on-1 beating allowed Rowan to beat up Show. So all the babyfaces stood tall here - why buy the PPV?

http://jayreviewsthings.blogspot.com/2014/12/wwe-raw-12-1-14-3-hour-pre-show-for.html

Screens - 

I'M A CM PUNK GUY!






http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/rq8gu7nmnujw072f8svwhk5hcy8lm5cd

 
mykevermin said:
I can't reconcile the legacy of horribly racist caricatures in WWE with The New Day. Maybe I'm wrong, and this is all from the minds of the dudes involved. But it still makes me *horribly* uncomfortable to watch.

WWE still lacks cultural nuance. Kofi Kingston was "Jamaican," because they thought fans couldn't wrap their heads around "born in Ghana, grew up in Connecticut." Xavier Woods has a fucking PhD (at least I think he does). Rusev is Bulgarian (a European country with a semi-capitalist economy and a Democratically elected parliamentary government) - he has a *tattoo* of the fucking country on his shoulder. And they quickly turn him into "Putin loving Commie Russkie," like it's 1985 still.

It's disappointing to see Cesaro relegated to nowheresville status (same with Tyson Kidd, but he's sadly always been there), especially after the great matches he had this year as well as the idea that WWE was getting behind him early in 2014. What happened?

With only a few exceptions, the roster feels corny and cartoony - like the show is the same boring format (25-minute opening monologue) with the same boring overarching villain (the "boss" character who constantly makes decisions with the intent of destroying the company - previously McMahon, then every GM ever, then The Authority, now the "anonymous GM) - but the roster is like one fucking "High Energy" or "Men on a Mission" short of the "WWF New Generation" era. At least then HBK, Razor, and a few others put on killer main event matches.

At least I can watch the Sixers play awful basketball instead. :)
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We live in a country where the birthplace of the president was a constant talking point for years and people still think he's an evil muslim. Those are Vince and Linda's people and the demo they strive for.

Also their track record for developing and pushing minority talent is fucking terrible. This is a company that had Mexicans coming to the ring on lawnmowers within the past ten years. Everything has to be boiled down to some kind of stereotype in their eyes.
 
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Oooh, Mexicools. 

"Juan Deere!" Get it! Ha!

Egads.

Anyone liste to the interview on WWE Network with Vince? Nothing earth shattering, but fascinating in any case.

 
If the Network had more stuff like tonight's interview, I can guarantee it would they would have a lot more subs. Glad that Austin didnt hold back on any of the issues and that Vince didnt give those standard generic PR answers.

 
Just a quick note regarding Myke's mention of Xavier Woods: the man said he was working on his PhD back when I met him on Halloween night of 2008. He's probably got multiple degrees by this point at the rate he was going. He does have a lot to offer, indeed.
 
I've been hopelessly addicted to NJPW World. Just got the APK for my phone and it runs perfectly! Can't get it to work on the OUYA though, despite having Chrome, Firefox, and Flash installed on it.

Oh, and Brock's a possible addition to the EA UFC Legends roster.

This show was TNA being TNA by having A CHANCE to showcase their best content and somehow finding numerous ways to fuck that up.
 

http://jayreviewsthings.blogspot.com/2014/12/tna-impact-12-3-14-best-of-2014.html









Screen Gallery - 

http://www.imagebam.com/gallery/10owv6u2udng79dhz160glqfl48bzjs0

 
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CM Punk: "You don't know Morris Day & the Time from 'Purple Rain'?"
Cabana: "I only know them from that Kevin Smith movie."

There's your easy "describe the difference between Cabana and Punk in 5 seconds" answer.
 
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