Racial Quotas and Affirmative Action post Obama

M

militantatheistaphob

CAG Veteran
A black man has been elected president. A black man is on the supreme court
Both are adored by their respective supporters.

Why then does the US Justice department keep suing for not meeting racial quotas.

Why are applicants judged by the color of the skin and not by ability.
 
I had something typed up and lost it.

So here's what I have instead:

They're scheduled to stop tomorrow, OP. Racism is canceled until further notice. Like a VC release of "Earthbound."
 
People admire Clarence Thomas?! I hate him for trying so hard to vote down everything that makes this country great, and what helped him get this post in the first place.
 
I'm with detectiveconan16. Someone admires Thomas? Even conservative peeps I know that have read decisions think he's a crap partisan with far less intuition than should be required of justices.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Is this a real topic? The Vs. forum really needs a quality control filter.[/quote]

With a quality control filter, the only posts left would be mine.

I really don't feel like that would be all that entertaining for me, but if the people wish for it, I'll accept their decision.
 
Can we get affirmative action for gays, muslims, and atheists now prz? If black people don't need it anymore, other groups could use it.
 
[quote name='gaxur']Can we get affirmative action for gays, muslims, and atheists now prz? If black people don't need it anymore, other groups could use it.[/quote]

I think affirmative action is demonized in a lot of circles, and it still really shouldn't be.

Here's why. You're born in a lower class neighborhood in the US. More than likely (look at the statistics), you're a minority. You work your ass off, get a good education, and start looking for jobs. Chances are, you're one of the only people in your family with a college education, and have a chance to live a decent life.

The number of people who actually fit into this story are almost non-existent. I'm a white guy, and would have NO problem losing out on a position to someone who was equally qualified, and went through these struggles.

There is no escaping that I had more opportunities than most minorities simply because of my skin color. I'm willing to give up some of my opportunities, then, for people who are less fortunate than me in the hopes they can provide a life for their family.

When there is seriously no racism left in this country, I'll be pissed about affirmative action. Until then, I have no problem leveling the playing field.

(Note : I know there are abuses of affirmative action, but in general it does way more good than bad).
 
[quote name='HotShotX']Some states actually had affirmative action on the ballot and voted to end it.

~HotShotX[/quote]

Have a peek down at Ammendment 46: http://www.cnn.com/ELECTION/2008/results/state/#CO

No is winning by a scant few thousand votes. I voted no.

[quote name='nathansu']I'm willing to give up some of my opportunities, then, for people who are less fortunate than me in the hopes they can provide a life for their family.[/quote]

What is this selfless commie tripe. You're unamerican. Go to Canada or something. >:E
 
[quote name='speedracer']I'm with detectiveconan16. Someone admires Thomas? Even conservative peeps I know that have read decisions think he's a crap partisan with far less intuition than should be required of justices.[/quote]

what? Clarance Thomas is one of the smartest people in the country. I've met him 3 times and came off as more intelligent each time I met him.

As far as Affirmative Action goes, until the Federal Government decides it's no longer needed, it doesn't matter what states decide on the issue. Just like abortion because of Roe v. Wade. States have no say in the matter even though they pass initiatives.

The only way to strengthen either one is basically if there is a black job applicant/s, it's down between those 2, and everyone else goes home immediately. So I think they're going to stay the same.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']It's not selfless if you're imposing your views on others. ;)[/quote]

So my view that people not so fortunate should get a chance in life is selfish? That makes absolutely no sense.
 
I think he's connecting the idea of selflessness to socialism and the concept of being mandated to help people.
 
[quote name='Hex']I think he's connecting the idea of selflessness to socialism and the concept of being mandated to help people.[/quote]

Well, we've seen what happens when we don't mandate common sense.

Slavery comes to mind as a decent example of this.
 
[quote name='nathansu']So my view that people not so fortunate should get a chance in life is selfish? That makes absolutely no sense.[/quote]

No. Forcing me to give up scholarships/jobs etc. because I'm not an ethnic minority is selfish. Glad you're able and willing to do that, but maybe you should've saved that education for yourself. Seem to be quite lacking. ;_;
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK'];_;[/quote]

Lifelike texture ;_;

When was someone forced to give up a scholarship?
 
[quote name='KingBroly']what? Clarance Thomas is one of the smartest people in the country. I've met him 3 times and came off as more intelligent each time I met him.[/QUOTE]
I'm sure you've sat around and had brandy and cigars with him all the time and that qualifies you to speak to his stature as a jurist.

Now show me an opinion of his worth a fuck.
 
[quote name='Hex']
When was someone forced to give up a scholarship?[/quote]

There are scholarships based on ethnicity FYI.

Also: Can't really get a scholarship when you get shafted for a college spot simply because your skin's a certain color.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']what? Clarance Thomas is one of the smartest people in the country. I've met him 3 times and came off as more intelligent each time I met him.[/quote]

My dad saw him at an Italian sub place in Manassass. He was tutoring a HS student at the time - I thought it was pretty interesting that a supreme court judge was tutoring HS students in his off-time.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']There are scholarships based on ethnicity FYI.

Also: Can't really get a scholarship when you get shafted for a college spot simply because your skin's a certain color.[/QUOTE]

It's not a perfect world. If it was we wouldn't need regulations to keep minorities from getting shafted because of the color of their skin. Affirmative action is imperfect, but it was a necessary evil that hopefully will eventually no longer be needed.

But honestly, there are plenty of good schools and plenty of scholarships to go around for pretty much all outstanding students, as long as people are flexible and not set on 1 or 2 schools.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']No. Forcing me to give up scholarships/jobs etc. because I'm not an ethnic minority is selfish. Glad you're able and willing to do that, but maybe you should've saved that education for yourself. Seem to be quite lacking. ;_;[/QUOTE]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think he said if all things being equal, he would give it up.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']There are scholarships based on ethnicity FYI.
[/quote]

There are scholarships based on a DICKload of things, not just race. There are scholarships only for christians, should I bitch about that? Should a christian bitch about my atheist scholarship? It's close to impossible to find a scholarship that excludes you from everyone else. #-o
 
There are scholarships based on a DICKload of things, not just race. There are scholarships only for christians,
Click to expand...

FFS, there are scholarships that are awarded to PEOPLE WITH A CERTAIN LAST NAME. They don't even care if you're actually related, so long as you have the last name. There are scholarships for lefties. There are scholarships based on a woman's ability to sing the national anthem.

Scholarships can be awarded for any reason, including no reason whatsoever.
 
Guys, didn't you get the memo in the OP?

Racism is canceled.

Maybe you can pick up the season 1 DVD in a few years, but we managed to elect a black man president, so that means we're forgiven for all past, present, and future racist deeds.
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']No. Forcing me to give up scholarships/jobs etc. because I'm not an ethnic minority is selfish. Glad you're able and willing to do that, but maybe you should've saved that education for yourself. Seem to be quite lacking. ;_;[/quote]


First of all, if white people had simply allowed blacks to attend schools, we wouldn't be where we are today. Sorry for trying to even up the playing field after centuries of slavery and oppression under Jim Crow. I know it didn't affect any of us personally but it affected our parents and we've still had to deal with the shadow racism that isn't obvious to everyone.
 
Actually, I kinda agree with the OP.
It sucks that places have to do this stupid ass racial quota. It sucks. I'm trying to look for a new job, and I'm so tempted to put "black" or "asian" to see if I can get the job.
 
[quote name='lilboo']Actually, I kinda agree with the OP.
It sucks that places have to do this stupid ass racial quota. It sucks. I'm trying to look for a new job, and I'm so tempted to put "black" or "asian" to see if I can get the job.[/QUOTE]

i always check hispanic on applications. half-breed ftw!
 
[quote name='speedracer']I'm with detectiveconan16. Someone admires Thomas? Even conservative peeps I know that have read decisions think he's a crap partisan with far less intuition than should be required of justices.[/QUOTE]


Why I like Clarence Thomas:
[quote name='Wiki']Thomas consistently supports a strict interpretation of the Constitution's interstate commerce clause[65] and supports limits on the power of federal government in favor of states' rights. In both United States v. Lopez and United States v. Morrison Thomas wrote a separate concurring opinion arguing for the original meaning of the commerce clause and criticizing the substantial effects formula. He wrote a sharply worded dissent in Gonzales v. Raich, a decision that permitted the federal government to arrest, prosecute, and imprison patients who were using medical marijuana. However, he previously authored United States v. Oakland Cannabis Buyers' Cooperative, an earlier case that also permitted the federal government to inspect medical marijuana dispensaries (the Oakland case dealt with the issue of medical necessity rather than federalism).

Thomas sees manufacturing and agriculture as being outside of the scope of the Commerce Clause, and therefore not subject to federal regulation.[65] He believes federal legislators have abused the Commerce Clause, and his narrow view of it would invalidate much of the contemporary work of the federal government, if it were shared by the majority[/QUOTE]
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']No. Forcing me to give up scholarships/jobs etc. because I'm not an ethnic minority is selfish. Glad you're able and willing to do that, but maybe you should've saved that education for yourself. Seem to be quite lacking. ;_;[/quote]

Because I know what it's like to grow up in difficult neighborhoods, I have no education. GG.

I guess a MS in a CS does not count for anything :X. Or the fact that I work at...well I'm not going to go there XD.
 
[quote name='nathansu']I think affirmative action is demonized in a lot of circles, and it still really shouldn't be.

Here's why. You're born in a lower class neighborhood in the US. More than likely (look at the statistics), you're a minority. You work your ass off, get a good education, and start looking for jobs. Chances are, you're one of the only people in your family with a college education, and have a chance to live a decent life.

The number of people who actually fit into this story are almost non-existent. I'm a white guy, and would have NO problem losing out on a position to someone who was equally qualified, and went through these struggles.

There is no escaping that I had more opportunities than most minorities simply because of my skin color. I'm willing to give up some of my opportunities, then, for people who are less fortunate than me in the hopes they can provide a life for their family.

When there is seriously no racism left in this country, I'll be pissed about affirmative action. Until then, I have no problem leveling the playing field.

(Note : I know there are abuses of affirmative action, but in general it does way more good than bad).[/quote]
You don't have to be a minority to go through that, believe me.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']You don't have to be a minority to go through that, believe me.[/quote]

I know, I grew up as one of the only white kids in a tough neighborhood. I'm just saying that it's exponentially more probable for someone "of color" to go through this than a white kid.
 
[quote name='nathansu']Because I know what it's like to grow up in difficult neighborhoods, I have no education. GG.
[/quote]

That wasn't my point at all. Though I do suppose I was wrong in implying that uneducated = stupid. Stupid is like a disease that affects everyone but me.

Also, for scholarships, there are ethnic ones that are awarded by the government (last I checked, that is... if there aren't any more, disregard my point then). Private organizations can obviously do whatever they want with their money (except to hire the people they want to, of course. Can't let the content of one's character get in the way of the color of their skin.).
 
[quote name='DarkSageRK']
Also, for scholarships, there are ethnic ones that are awarded by the government (last I checked, that is... if there aren't any more, disregard my point then). Private organizations can obviously do whatever they want with their money (except to hire the people they want to, of course. Can't let the content of one's character get in the way of the color of their skin.).[/quote]

Like it or not, we have to live with the legacy our ancestors have laid out for us. One of these things is the unfair and immoral treatment of minorities.

Steps (like AA) currently need to be taken to offset the injustice that is still prevalent in society. Less prevalent than 50 years ago, but still very prevalent.

Also - about the scholarships. If you are good enough in school, you'll get a scholarship regardless of the color of your skin. I should know, I rode through my BS and MS on scholarships and fellowships, didn't ever pay a dime in tuition.
 
I believe that there's a scholarship wearing a suit made out of duct tape to your graduation ceremonies.
Click to expand...

yes, I'm pretty sure it's sponsored by Duck Tape brand duct tape (it's the Ductiest!). There's actually a fair amount of competition for it.
 
[quote name='nathansu']Like it or not, we have to live with the legacy our ancestors have laid out for us. One of these things is the unfair and immoral treatment of minorities.

Steps (like AA) currently need to be taken to offset the injustice that is still prevalent in society. Less prevalent than 50 years ago, but still very prevalent.[/QUOTE]

Why do you think that further discrimination (i.e. injustice) will "offset injustice"? Do you also believe two wrongs make a right?
 
[quote name='gaxur']yes, I'm pretty sure it's sponsored by Duck Tape brand duct tape (it's the Ductiest!). There's actually a fair amount of competition for it.[/quote]
I did a duct tape suit for Halloween, but went totally normal for grad. Such a missed opportunity...
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Why do you think that further discrimination (i.e. injustice) will "offset injustice"? Do you also believe two wrongs make a right?[/quote]


When a black man can be treated just like anyone else in every corner of this land, then we'll be even. Two wrongs can make a right when slavery and Jim Crow is concerned. Stop acting like affirmative action is a wrong that's even on par with those two.
 
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[quote name='depascal22']When a black man can be treated just like anyone else in every corner of this land, then we'll be even. Two wrongs can make a right when slavery and Jim Crow is concerned. Stop acting affirmative action is a wrong that's even on par with those two.[/QUOTE]

- Moral relativism defined


The great thing about this pseudo-free country is that we're still free to be hated by a multitude of different people in every corner of the land. Affirmative action is never going to change that. People will find a reason to hate you even if they don't give a shit about your skin color.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Why do you think that further discrimination (i.e. injustice) will "offset injustice"? Do you also believe two wrongs make a right?[/quote]

How else will you make the playing field equal? Just assume everyone in south central will be able to dig themselves out?

The funny thing is that people who don't feel this way have never been in a situation where there's almost "no way out" of a neighborhood/lifestyle. For a lot of these people, it is seriously that way.

It's no coincidence that the majority of people in suburbs in LA are white, and the majority of the people in the slums are not white (black or hispanic).

If you don't see something wrong here, my claim is that you lack the experience to even have an opinion on the issue.
 
[quote name='depascal22']When a black man can be treated just like anyone else in every corner of this land, then we'll be even. Two wrongs can make a right when slavery and Jim Crow is concerned. Stop acting affirmative action is a wrong that's even on par with those two.[/quote]

QFT.

BTW, I'm as white as a sheet cover before anyone pegs me as a minority.
 
bmull, Your argument is that everyone is discriminated against and we should all just drop it. I wouldn't mind that if the playing field was leveled. Every attempt to level the playing field for anyone is met with resistance. Integrating schools was met with the National Guard, dogs, and fire hoses. Integrating neighborhoods leads to "White Flight". Affirmative action was met with cries of favoritism and unfair quotas.

You say it's not fair for white kids to be left out of school but you don't cry about unfair conditions in inner city public schools. Education was supposed to be leveled by now but inner city kids have been getting the shaft ever since the White Flight out of the cities. Money goes in but it's horribly mismanaged and misused.

If you don't want to let us into your schools with affirmative action, pay us our reparations and we'll endow Howard, Emory, Southern, and Grambling with enough money to be competitive with Harvard.

Your logic is that a couple decades of affirmative actions makes up for a centuries of oppression under slavery and Jim Crow and I say "fuck that. Pay what you owe."

We'll give up affirmative action when ALL public schools give each and every student a chance to succeed. That way, you could look at any student's test scores without any extraneous factors. I want my kids to have the same chances to get into Harvard that the kids from the rich white suburbs have. Can you really be against that?
 
[quote name='depascal22']
We'll give up affirmative action when ALL public schools give each and every student a chance to succeed. That way, you could look at any student's test scores without any extraneous factors. I want my kids to have the same chances to get into Harvard that the kids from the rich white suburbs have. Can you really be against that?[/quote]

In before "LEVEL THE PLAYING FIELD!?? YOU COMMUNIST/SOCIALIST/TERRORIST PIG HOW DARE YOU SUGGEST SUCH A THING!"
 
[quote name='depascal22']
We'll give up affirmative action when ALL public schools give each and every student a chance to succeed. That way, you could look at any student's test scores without any extraneous factors. I want my kids to have the same chances to get into Harvard that the kids from the rich white suburbs have. Can you really be against that?[/QUOTE]

That's exactly it. It's not just racism that keeps minorities out of top schools, it's that so many are concentrated in poor, urban areas and thus have a much tougher path to college. There's more dangers and struggles in life growing up around crime and poverty. The bulk of urban schools the poor attend are terrible and make it harder for them to get a good education.

Thus there needs to be some system to give kids from such areas a better chance of getting into a good college and breaking out of that cycle of poverty.
 
Well, the folly of bmulligan and elprincipe is that they seem to want "equality," but don't seem to want to do anything about the status quo, thinking it will work itself out.

Here's what they don't get: affirmative action will NEVER go away. Before we had affirmative action policies, we had affirmative action policies. It was "whites only." To act like that hasn't gone away is something that's not really worth debating, as it's an institutional equivalent of saying "there's no more racism in society at all."

So we have two forms of affirmative action: (1) those systems that, formally or informally, provide advantages for some minorities; (2) those informal systems embedded into institutions that keep minorities out in the first place.

Look, we don't have signs that say "whites only" anymore, but if you think that there's no racial penalty in gaining entry if you're nonwhite, you're a fool and a liar. "Whites only" is still the case, it's the default elprincipe and bmulligan want to deny the existence of until confronted with the fact that racism still exists, and then pooh-pooh it away, saying "we'll never get rid of ALL racism."

But the fact is, that "backdoor affirmative action" is more powerful than any formal policy that helps out nonwhites. That's what they're scared to admit. They're the kind of people who howl at Devah Pager's research, and can offer up nothing contrary other than blustering, denial, and post-hoc cognitive dissonance repairs.

But the funny thing about their argument is this: they'll admit that "racism" is something that, since it's a mindset, isn't something we'll be able to eliminate in its entirety. Knowing full well that we can't get rid of it, then, the obvious solution is to let the default informal affirmative action policies remain in place, and deny those equal opportunities (equal opportunity for preferential treatment!) to nonwhites.

It's more white people having no idea what this world is like, and thinking that nonwhites just have to will themselves into positions of power. Heh.
 
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