Racial Quotas and Affirmative Action post Obama

Affirmative action isn't the way to accomplish equality though. I'm not saying i'm against it, just that it's more of a temporary band-aid than a real solution. The only way to have real equality would be for people to change their racist ways. Equality with affirmative action is really just an illusion.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Affirmative action isn't the way to accomplish equality though. I'm not saying i'm against it, just that it's more of a temporary band-aid than a real solution. The only way to have real equality would be for people to change their racist ways. Equality with affirmative action is really just an illusion.[/quote]

You can also suggest slave owners let their slaves go. That worked out well.....

I agree with you in a very general sense, but change like this does not come without some type of legislative pressure (see civil rights, slavery, etc).
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Affirmative action isn't the way to accomplish equality though. I'm not saying i'm against it, just that it's more of a temporary band-aid than a real solution. The only way to have real equality would be for people to change their racist ways. Equality with affirmative action is really just an illusion.[/quote]

Well it's not really meant to actually solve the problem of inequality. It's just an institutional attempt to level out opportunities for jobs/education, not an attempt to actually rid people of racism/sexism/whatever.

Many would say that more equality and less of those isms would come about as a result of more equal opportunities, but those people would be communists.
 
How do you propose for people to stop being racist? It's a learned behavior that's pretty tough to change. You're more likely to wean every American off tobacco than you are to get everyone to treat each other fairly.

Again, I don't really care if people are racist. It's something you can't legislate away but you can level the playing field. Again, I'd be completely cool with doing away with any sort of quota if kids had the same access to education in K-12. That's a much bigger issue. If we can get inner city schools up to snuff, I'm sure that black and other minorities would get into college at a rate that's poportional to the general population.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Well, the folly of bmulligan and elprincipe is that they seem to want "equality," but don't seem to want to do anything about the status quo, thinking it will work itself out.

Here's what they don't get: affirmative action will NEVER go away. Before we had affirmative action policies, we had affirmative action policies. It was "whites only." To act like that hasn't gone away is something that's not really worth debating, as it's an institutional equivalent of saying "there's no more racism in society at all."

So we have two forms of affirmative action: (1) those systems that, formally or informally, provide advantages for some minorities; (2) those informal systems embedded into institutions that keep minorities out in the first place.

Look, we don't have signs that say "whites only" anymore, but if you think that there's no racial penalty in gaining entry if you're nonwhite, you're a fool and a liar. "Whites only" is still the case, it's the default elprincipe and bmulligan want to deny the existence of until confronted with the fact that racism still exists, and then pooh-pooh it away, saying "we'll never get rid of ALL racism."

But the fact is, that "backdoor affirmative action" is more powerful than any formal policy that helps out nonwhites. That's what they're scared to admit. They're the kind of people who howl at Devah Pager's research, and can offer up nothing contrary other than blustering, denial, and post-hoc cognitive dissonance repairs.

But the funny thing about their argument is this: they'll admit that "racism" is something that, since it's a mindset, isn't something we'll be able to eliminate in its entirety. Knowing full well that we can't get rid of it, then, the obvious solution is to let the default informal affirmative action policies remain in place, and deny those equal opportunities (equal opportunity for preferential treatment!) to nonwhites.

It's more white people having no idea what this world is like, and thinking that nonwhites just have to will themselves into positions of power. Heh.[/quote]

Just going to chime in and say the thread should have ended with this post.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']Why I like Clarence Thomas:[/QUOTE]
I should have put that he kicked ass on Raich. Then again, I didn't expect anyone to actually know anything about him. The commerce clause thing you posted is bullshit partisan crap. I wonder where that consideration was during Gonzalez v. Carhart? He uses commerce to defend his view of how this country should be run, but votes against it when he doesn't like it.

He openly and vocally wonders why groups don't argue commerce clause more often. It's because they can't trust that he'll actually rule based on it. If that doesn't expose the bullshit, I don't know what does.
 
Unfortunately it's hard to legislate behavior. If people are racist, they're going to be racist. The only way to force them to "act right" is to make it illegal not to. That in turn gives the illusion that one has equal opportunities, but that's only because of the law. Laws can be changed too, so it isn't necessarily permanent.

Think of it this way, racism is a large, angry bear and affirmative action is the chains holding it back. Remove the chains and you're dead.
 
[quote name='nathansu']How else will you make the playing field equal? Just assume everyone in south central will be able to dig themselves out?

The funny thing is that people who don't feel this way have never been in a situation where there's almost "no way out" of a neighborhood/lifestyle. For a lot of these people, it is seriously that way.

It's no coincidence that the majority of people in suburbs in LA are white, and the majority of the people in the slums are not white (black or hispanic).

If you don't see something wrong here, my claim is that you lack the experience to even have an opinion on the issue.[/quote]

I came here as an immigrant - living off foodstamps with my family, not knowing how to speack English. We lived by the projects in a crappier apartment, yet we paid more than they would for rent, as we weren't under a government program, and obviously didn't qualify for it. I went to High School with plenty of black people, as well as other minorities.
Now, once I learned English and was old enough to apply for a job, I couldn't get one, because I wasn't black or latino - and those were the people holding the jobs available for me to apply to including fast food, supermarkets, home depot, etc (that were minimum wage - but much better than nothing).

Trust me, selling drugs has crossed my mind (but thats not a lifestyle that I would choose) - even when there was 'no way out' but 'who searches - will always find' as my culture's saying goes. I found a job paying half the minimum wage (yes its illigal to pay less, but I wasnt gonna complain at that point), worked well, got a raise. Then found another job, washing dishes overnight at a restaurant on weekends that no one would take from the projects (I guess didn't fit their lifestyle), while going straight to school on Saturdays to make up for my failed labs.
Just to cut the story short - i made it from less than what the people in the projects that have affirmative action - which I had to work around - to finishing college (with a loan I'm currently paying off) to making 3 times as much an hour, not because my skin is lighter, but because I had to work my ass off for years, not getting sleep and having to study hard.

So it makes me angry when most of these posts argue that it's a necessity for the blacks to have AA - if it's about slavery, then fine the slave owners' families for retributions for their work - I fully approve of that, but don't stuff me with AA BS - since I had nothing to do with it, and neither had any of my relatives, and neither did NY where I live, or LA where I have been and have friends living.

I know many minorities and blacks who have gotten good education and good jobs, and know many whites who haven't. I don't judge by race, but I judge people by their character - and thats my problem with AA, it blindly gives privilege to a certain group. If I were told that my group is to receive AA I would be offended, as I'd see it as implication that I was inferior to the rest. And thats what racism is.
 
No offense but you came here of your own free will. My ancestors were kidnapped, chained, and shipped over here. Then they were forced to work for zero wages until the day they died. Their wives and children could be sold off to anyone in any part of the country. Their were beaten to the edge of death for even trying to act like a human.

Like I said, I'd be all for reparations but you'll NEVER get anyone to pay. Besides, most of those families are probably good people that have nothing to do with their ancestors' transgressions. Besides, how much would the government even pay?

As to one group getting preferential treatment, it would've never happened if whites hadn't given all themselves preferential treatment for centuries. Blame white people for completely fucking everything up before you blame us for trying to get back into the game.
 
So it makes me angry when most of these posts argue that it's a necessity for the blacks to have AA - if it's about slavery, then fine the slave owners' families for retributions for their work - I fully approve of that, but don't stuff me with AA BS - since I had nothing to do with it, and neither had any of my relatives, and neither did NY where I live, or LA where I have been and have friends living.
Click to expand...

So punishing you for something you didn't do is bad, but punishing other people for something they didn't do is ok?

AA has nothing to do with saying "This group is worse, so they need more help" and everything to do with saying "This group is discriminated against more by society, and this is the best way we can compensate for that.". And discrimination isn't just slavery, it's decades of segregation, centuries of racism which still continue, and most importantly, as mentioned, the fact that those things have combined to make those communities still worse off today.

If your parents are poor, you're likely to be poor, and so are your children. If your grandparents were forced to work in the kitchen instead of as managers, regardless of their hard work, qualifications, and abilities, you're in a worse place than you could be and should be because of it.

Affirmative action is also about compensating for racial discrimination that continues to this day. For every job that a white loses to a black because of AA, imagine how many jobs blacks lose to whites because of racism. And imagine how likely those are to be the more 'country club' job; the cushier, better paying ones, given by a "higher" class which is still fairly racist.
 
Equal rights are guaranteed in the constitution. Equal opportunities for all is an idea derived from equal rights that are guaranteed to us.

We CLEARLY do not have equal rights for all. IMO, things need to be done in order to get everyone equal opportunities. Things like special college programs for inner city kids, affirmative action, scholarships for kids who do not have the financial support to go to college from their parents, etc.

This is NECESSARY in order to balance things out a little more. It will continue to be neccecary until everyone has equal oppurtunities, which won't be for quite some time.

Amongst other things, America was formed in an age where bigotry, racism, and hatred for all things not white was commonplace. We now need to work together in order to dissolve that. There are echoes of this age all over the country (see the south, for example)

Leveling the playing field, so to speak, is one way of accomplishing this.

(Again, I'm a very, very white guy. People always assume those arguing for AA and the like are a minority themselves. )
 
Also, notice how the OP made a very retarded point, was instantly hit with a sea of facts, and has not been back since? Standard "low information voter" protocol.

He did this with the other post about Obama "abusing power" already, too.
 
[quote name='sickle']I came here as an immigrant - living off foodstamps with my family, not knowing how to speack English. We lived by the projects in a crappier apartment, yet we paid more than they would for rent, as we weren't under a government program, and obviously didn't qualify for it. I went to High School with plenty of black people, as well as other minorities.
Now, once I learned English and was old enough to apply for a job, I couldn't get one, because I wasn't black or latino - and those were the people holding the jobs available for me to apply to including fast food, supermarkets, home depot, etc (that were minimum wage - but much better than nothing).

Trust me, selling drugs has crossed my mind (but thats not a lifestyle that I would choose) - even when there was 'no way out' but 'who searches - will always find' as my culture's saying goes. I found a job paying half the minimum wage (yes its illigal to pay less, but I wasnt gonna complain at that point), worked well, got a raise. Then found another job, washing dishes overnight at a restaurant on weekends that no one would take from the projects (I guess didn't fit their lifestyle), while going straight to school on Saturdays to make up for my failed labs.
Just to cut the story short - i made it from less than what the people in the projects that have affirmative action - which I had to work around - to finishing college (with a loan I'm currently paying off) to making 3 times as much an hour, not because my skin is lighter, but because I had to work my ass off for years, not getting sleep and having to study hard.

So it makes me angry when most of these posts argue that it's a necessity for the blacks to have AA - if it's about slavery, then fine the slave owners' families for retributions for their work - I fully approve of that, but don't stuff me with AA BS - since I had nothing to do with it, and neither had any of my relatives, and neither did NY where I live, or LA where I have been and have friends living.

I know many minorities and blacks who have gotten good education and good jobs, and know many whites who haven't. I don't judge by race, but I judge people by their character - and thats my problem with AA, it blindly gives privilege to a certain group. If I were told that my group is to receive AA I would be offended, as I'd see it as implication that I was inferior to the rest. And thats what racism is.[/QUOTE]

QF mostly T, but I really have to disagree with fining the descendants of slave owners. What is that shit? I don't know if my great, great, great grandparents owned slaves, and I don't care. Why should I have to pay for their bigotry? I shouldn't, and if some bullshit law gets passed where I have to pay money to descendants of slaves, I won't. I'll withdraw all my money from the bank, burn it, and go to jail because that's just plain racism.

Also, I think justifying AA on "tough schools" is bull. How about getting rid of the suckiness of the schools on the basis that they suck rather than racism?
 
[quote name='Chuplayer']
Also, I think justifying AA on "tough schools" is bull. How about getting rid of the suckiness of the schools on the basis that they suck rather than racism?[/quote]

What you just said there makes absolutely no sense.

Solution to minorities not having as many opportunities as white folk = "make schools suck less".

Don't quit your day job.
 
[quote name='nathansu']What you just said there makes absolutely no sense.

Solution to minorities not having as many opportunities as white folk = "make schools suck less".

Don't quit your day job.[/QUOTE]

Why not? It's one of the main contributing factors to minorities not having as many opportunities as white folk. That has been established here, there, and everywhere. If you take the race issue out of the picture, you get schools that suck. Not schools that suck for minorities. Just schools that suck. And while the race thing is probably made of socioeconomic stuff that I'm not going to deny, there's no excuse for schools sucking and creating more and more generations of people that suck not because of the color of their skin but based no the fact that they genuinely and truly suck. I'm so sick and tired of everything being a race thing. If you suck, take responsibility for it as a human being, not as a color.
 
[quote name='depascal22']When a black man can be treated just like anyone else in every corner of this land, then we'll be even. Two wrongs can make a right when slavery and Jim Crow is concerned. Stop acting like affirmative action is a wrong that's even on par with those two.[/QUOTE]

I'm surprised to hear you admit you think two wrongs can make a right; in other words, you are admitting affirmative action is a wrong. At least you're honest.

And I never even remotely said affirmative action was on par with slavery or Jim Crow, unless you define "wrongs" as all being exactly the same in terms of severity. Please don't put words into my mouth.

The thing about this is that if you want the first sentence of your reply to ever happen (or get close to happening, since unless we control thoughts and actions on an unimaginable scale it will never be fully true) you need to stop things like affirmative action. As long as we define people by the color of their skin, we won't be able to stop defining people by the color of their skin. You cry out for a cure to the disease while advocating further infection.
 
[quote name='nathansu']How else will you make the playing field equal? Just assume everyone in south central will be able to dig themselves out?[/quote]

You enforce anti-discrimination laws on the books, not hurt other people to "make up" for past injustices. Why do you think making the playing field unequal is making it equal? That makes no sense whatsoever.

[quote name='nathansu']The funny thing is that people who don't feel this way have never been in a situation where there's almost "no way out" of a neighborhood/lifestyle. For a lot of these people, it is seriously that way.

It's no coincidence that the majority of people in suburbs in LA are white, and the majority of the people in the slums are not white (black or hispanic).

If you don't see something wrong here, my claim is that you lack the experience to even have an opinion on the issue.[/QUOTE]

It's rich that knowing nothing about me (other than a few posts on this forum) you presume to know more than I do on an issue. What makes your opinion on an issue so automatically more valid than mine -- because you are (of course) right? Get over yourself.

The way to cure problems with unequal opportunities lies through changing our education system, not instituting a racial spoils system. Do you think most blacks getting college admissions/scholarships due to affirmative action are people from "the slums"? Maybe I should challenge your experience, since this is certainly not true. Why do you think even someone like Barack Obama says affirmative action should be based on income levels, not race? I disagree with that as well, but at least it makes more sense.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Well, the folly of bmulligan and elprincipe is that they seem to want "equality," but don't seem to want to do anything about the status quo, thinking it will work itself out.[/QUOTE]

Bullshit. I just don't support adding fuel to the fire of discrimination as a solution. Of course, for many on the left, anything other than racial preferences is "doing nothing."
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Bullshit. I just don't support adding fuel to the fire of discrimination as a solution. Of course, for many on the left, anything other than racial preferences is "doing nothing."[/QUOTE]

No seriously, myke has you pegged.

You want to try nothing and then pretend to think that nothing will work.
 
It's no use arguing with these people, Principe. They act on emotion instead of rational analysis or any sort of moral consistency. They prefer payback and revenge to earning and overcoming adversity.

Not once has any of them bothered to define "level playing field," a popular colloquialism, thought convey some unfocused image of "equality." The implied meaning can only be taken as a complete redistribution of wealth and property of every man, woman, and child in America. Only when we are given an equal share of opportunity, or equal footing, can the race for success be judged fairly.

Then comes the race. Even if we were all to start from a common "equal" financial footing, the differences would be immediately apparent. The individuals with higher intelligence would naturally be able to swindle more of their fair shares from the less intelligent. The producers would naturally begin to usurp the wealth from those that are unable to produce as much with their given cache. The inequalities would continue to grow until an equilibrium was reached and the wealth has naturally distributed itself to those who would work for it, save and invest it, and those who would make more wealth instead of squander it.

Then the process of redistribution could begin anew since we would all be unequal. No matter how equal we are made by legislating it, the fact that we are all free and equal under the law to act on our own free will will dictate our success and failure. Potential can never be equally legislated, although the Left would do their best to imply that it can.

Let me give depscall22 some "equality" in k-12 acess to education. The Detroit public school district is allowed to spend almost twelve thousand dollars per student by the state of Michigan. My city of Brighton is allotted $7400. In no way, shape, or form is this equal. In fact, one could argue that it is affirmative in nature to give the disenfranchised more of their share to make up for past inequalities. However, in spite of this discrepancy, the Brighton schools continually pump out better educated students at a higher rate that the Detroit public schools. How can this be when everyone has the right to attend a public school at no cost?

You'll have to think of some other ways to make the playing field equal like how you can legislate more family involvement, more cohesive family units, safer neighborhoods, and more employment opportunities as a societal whole instead of focusing on who's ancestors chose to come here willingly and those who did not. The level playing field you Lefties dream about is a fallacy, an impossible dream than cannot be achieved because there is no moral, philosophical basis for it to exist apart from "it feels right", or some other arbitrary ill-defined sense of justice. The more intelligent in your amidst understand this, (myke and his affirmative action will never go away) and purposely use it's visceral appeal to placate the willing after convincing them they are the disenfranchised.
 
The rich and corporate-controlled politicians exploit the racial divide because political in-fighting among the middle-class is a useful distraction. The rich use this distraction to continually lower worker pay, reduce benefits, and fatten executive paychecks regardless of race.

Giving one exclusive race special treatment or a hand-out is a bullshit premise in the 21st century - it has never worked throughout history, it never will, and it's time we started recognizing this.

Obamas election was an example of the middle class finally banding together and working in their self-interest. Yes he's not a perfect candidate and yes the corpos still have plenty of lackeys in the executive and legislative branches of govt - but at least America is finally moving in the right direction.

Obama is serious business you can bet he's going to stay far away from affirmative action bullshit.
 
[quote name='camoor']The rich and corporate-controlled politicians exploit the racial divide because political in-fighting among the middle-class is a useful distraction. The rich use this distraction to continually lower worker pay, reduce benefits, and fatten executive paychecks regardless of race.

Giving one exclusive race special treatment or a hand-out is a bullshit premise in the 21st century - it has never worked throughout history, it never will, and it's time we started recognizing this.

Obamas election was an example of the middle class finally banding together and working in their self-interest. Yes he's not a perfect candidate and yes the corpos still have plenty of lackeys in the executive and legislative branches of govt - but at least America is finally moving in the right direction.

Obama is serious business you can bet he's going to stay far away from affirmative action bullshit.[/quote]

Serious business? How isn't the Presidency serious business? You're saying he'll be the only one to take it serious. That makes no sense.

It's a no win situation for him on Affirmative Action. He stays away from it, black people are pissed off. He dives into it, white people are pissed off (unless they're people who blame themselves for what their relatives did, even though they had nothing to do with it).

You can't blame slave owner descendants for what their ancestors did. You can't. In the legal sense, people could sue Ken Lay's children for the money he stole from Enron, but you can't.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Serious business? How isn't the Presidency serious business? You're saying he'll be the only one to take it serious. That makes no sense.[/QUOTE]

It will be much more serious than it has been in the past few years.

W made the oval office look like a clown car.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']You enforce anti-discrimination laws on the books, not hurt other people to "make up" for past injustices. Why do you think making the playing field unequal is making it equal? That makes no sense whatsoever.[/quote]

This is not hurting other people what so ever. Chances are while (for example) a black man may get one shot at a job, white people have TONS of opportunities. This doesn't hurt white people one bit.


[quote name='elprincipe']
It's rich that knowing nothing about me (other than a few posts on this forum) you presume to know more than I do on an issue. What makes your opinion on an issue so automatically more valid than mine -- because you are (of course) right? Get over yourself.
[/quote]

No, because I've grown up in tough neighborhoods. I've seen people have the two options for getting money : sell drugs or work at McDonalds. There is NO other option for them. They do not have the luxury of getting a loan for school, having their parents pay for school, etc, like MOST white kids have.

People who have actually experienced these things first hand tend to have a better viewpoint on them. People who have never experienced such a thing are simply ignorant about the situation and speculate from the world completely outside the actual issue.

[quote name='elprincipe']
The way to cure problems with unequal opportunities lies through changing our education system, not instituting a racial spoils system. Do you think most blacks getting college admissions/scholarships due to affirmative action are people from "the slums"? Maybe I should challenge your experience, since this is certainly not true. [/quote]

One of my best friends got into Berkeley because of this. He lived in what was "the hood" where we grew up (shots fired every night, etc). So again, experience trumps ignorant speculation.

Now he's doing fantastic, has a great job, provides for his family. Without this he easily could have gone the other route.

Another friend of mine wasn't so lucky. He involved himself in some really heavy shit, ran with one of the local gangs, and ended up killing someone (not saying that's right). Given the right opportunities, he would have been just fine. But the only option for him to get money was to slang and run with a gang to provide money for his family - so he's serving 25 to life for it.

Why do you think even someone like Barack Obama says affirmative action should be based on income levels, not race? I disagree with that as well, but at least it makes more sense.
Click to expand...
Here's the funny thing - the poorest in the country happen to be mostly black or hispanic. Since you have such a high correlation, you are targeting low income rather than race.

Lotsa ignorance, not much experience FTL.
 
You seem to think this is all about revenge. It really isn't. It's about leveling the playing field long enough to get black people to the same level that white people are.

Also, some people are complaining that whites are getting punished while blacks are being rewarded. Thing is, if you're on the border line where you're worried that blacks are gonna get you're spot, you should've hustled harder during school.

I saw a couple white kids in my school just assume they were getting in because of good grades. They got really heated when they got denied to Northwestern (I went to high school in Illinois and it's our Harvard if you didn't know) and they went off on how the $$$$ers get all the spot. The lesson is, go get yours. Stop acting like there aren't any spots out there and you're being punished by affirmative action.
 
[quote name='depascal22']
I saw a couple white kids in my school just assume they were getting in because of good grades. They got really heated when they got denied to Northwestern (I went to high school in Illinois and it's our Harvard if you didn't know) and they went off on how the $$$$ers get all the spot. The lesson is, go get yours. Stop acting like there aren't any spots out there and you're being punished by affirmative action.[/quote]

Exactly. I'm a white kid who did what it took to get into the schools I wanted to get into (pulled damn near 4.0 through undergrad).

It's always convenient to blame someone other than yourself for fucking it up. Buck up, do your best, and if you don't get in - you have only yourself to blame.

4.0 and you don't have to worry about getting in anywhere. DO IT.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Why do you think even someone like Barack Obama says affirmative action should be based on income levels, not race?[/quote]

I actually get that too, but there are two issues. Poor people in general obviously don't have the same opportunities and so aiding them so that they can get out of a cycle of poverty is one thing that needs to be addressed. But that's not the whole issue really. When somebody looks for excuses not to give a guy a job interview because his name is, say, Barack Hussein Obama, that's not a problem with opportunity because of a lack of economic resources it's just racism, and that's something affirmative action is meant to address.

And I also don't get the thought that it's about revenge or retribution. There is a built-in preference for white men over minorities and women regardless of qualifications. Affirmative action is an attempt to counter that.
 
Doing it on income levels could work but, as with doing it on race, it's not perfect.

Just like the black kid from the suburbs who went to a good school and made good grades doesn't need AA as much as worse off black kids from the inner city, basing it on income level leads to similar mismatches.

There are poor people who live in good school districts. I grew up in a very poor, rural county, but our schools were pretty decent. They had decent teaches despite the pay not being great as cost of living was low and lots of people go the teaching route if they want to stay where they grew up as it's one of the few stable jobs in a poor rural area.

Honestly, maybe the best way to do it would be to base it on geographic area and/or school district. Give some added benefit to people who live in the worst areas and go to the worst schools to help them succeed in the face of these obstacles regardless of their race or their families income. But that would be very cumbersome to determine and implement and may not be worth the hassle. And of course, as SpazX noted, such approaches do nothing to alleviate direct racism.

In my view, AA in college admission is just a necessary evil, be it based on race, income, area, school district. Is it a solution? No it's a stop gap measure in the meantime until racism is gone and the public school system is fixed.

But this thread really highlights why I hate the conservative viewpoint. They're against stuff like AA and say to fix schools. But then they get their panties in a bunch when people propose raising some taxes to put more money into innercity schools so they can pay good teachers enough to come there and stay there, have the technology in the classroom to give a modern education, provide basic supplies to all students etc. etc. And on a personal level these self centered assholes probably vote down every local school levy.

The whole social darwinist view of just leaving everyone alone and letting them succeed or fail on their own regardless of the differential opportunities across society by race and socio-economic status just makes me sick. But some people just don't care about much beyond keeping as much of their money as possible.
 
The whole social darwinist view of just leaving everyone alone and letting them succeed or fail on their own regardless of the differential opportunities across society by race and socio-economic status just makes me sick.
Click to expand...

This is almost signature worthy. Congratulations for personifying the antithesis of the American Ideal, or, the opportunity to succeed by one's own efforts. You are a perfect product of the modern American educational system.
 
I wouldn't be against doing it according to income levels. Then again, there are scholarships out there for low income families. My brother-in-law got a full ride to Indiana University because the state set aside a certain number of scholarships for low-income overachievers. Last time I checked, he was pretty white.

Also, bmull and principe are acting like college campuses are being overrun by the colored folk. Last time I went down to IU, it was pretty white. I was just at San Jose State and UC-Berkeley a couple weeks ago and it's mostly white. Why are you so against setting aside a couple slots for minorities? Maybe you like your schools all white-washed out.

On the flip side, all the Historically Black Colleges set aside a couple slots for white kids. The lesson is that diversity is just as important as anything else when it comes to learning about the world. Conservatives seem to forget that the only way racism will slowly fade away is to expose young white males to people of all colors, races, and creeds. You can't do that when there's only a handful of minorities at school.

EDIT -- Bmull, The American Ideal/Dream only existed for white males for most of the country's existence. We'd like to get there but the deck is stacked against us. Besides, when we go to get loans, we get saddled with the "subprime" ones. When we want to get into good colleges, our poor public schools do little to prepare us. When we try to get a job for more than minimum wage, employers demand experience AND education that is in such short supply. The American Dream is dead. We need a new one that includes everyone.
 
[quote name='bmulligan']This is almost signature worthy. Congratulations for personifying the antithesis of the American Ideal, or, the opportunity to succeed by one's own efforts. You are a perfect product of the modern American educational system.[/QUOTE]

See, the point you miss is not everyone can succeed through their own equal efforts. Kids in shitty school districts can study their assess off and still not get a great education because their school and teachers suck, while a kid from a good school district can study less and learn more.

Or a black kid can work his ass off, get good grades and lose out on a job to a less qualified white candidated because the person doing the hiring was racist.

Yes people should succeed through their own hard work, but given racism and differential opportunities not everyone has the same chance to succeed through that hard work. That's why AA is a necessary evil. We need to do things to help people break out of cycles of poverty and racial oppression. Fixing the school system, ending racism etc. is the ultimate goal, but AA is a necessary step in the meantime. At least for people who aren't fucktards and only care about their own bottom line.
 
Bmull and principe also forget that colleges look at your high school as much as your GPA. A 3.5 at a great private school with a difficult curriculum is as good as a 4.0 from a crappy public school. How do you plan on fixing that, oh wise ones?
 
I think most of you have good points, but as it was said:

[quote name='nathansu']It's always convenient to blame someone other than yourself for fucking it up. Buck up, do your best, and if you don't get in - you have only yourself to blame.

4.0 and you don't have to worry about getting in anywhere. DO IT.[/quote]

That was my point as well: no matter what color you are and what kind of last name you have, or sex, if you do that - you should get in/get a job/whatever. At least that's how it is here in NY.

I might not have witnessed the racism in the South, as I've never been there; but I have witnessed blacks in my neighborhood descriminating against other minority groups, that none of you would stand up for.
Racism goes both ways you know - should we not have AA for Native Americans (for taking their land and killing most of their people), for Asians (for putting them in concentration camps after Pearl Harbor), and this list could go on.

I totally agree that slavery(which ended 140 years ago), the segregation, and Jim Crow laws that followed it were all fucked up, but the blacks were not the only ones descriminated against in this country. If you want to talk this way - then give AA to all women, as they have not gotten same rights as men, and school and job descrimination were a norm, and still happen to this day, just like racism. Unfortunately AA will not change any of that.


But at this point I'm gonna stop with this again:
[quote name='nathansu']It's always convenient to blame someone other than yourself for fucking it up. Buck up, do your best, and if you don't get in - you have only yourself to blame.

4.0 and you don't have to worry about getting in anywhere. DO IT.[/quote]
 
Yes hard work is very important.

But still, why should a black kid, or a kid of any race from a shitty school district, have to get a 4.0 to get into a colelge that their white friend from school or a black kid from a better school district got into with a 3.2?

Conservatives tend to just say "tough shit life isn't fair, work harder," but I can't stomach that. Until the playing field is level, we need things like AA to try to remedy those discrepancies.

Hard work is (or should be) a bare necessity, but until equal work, grades etc. result in equal opportunities we shouldn't just stand by and ignore the injustice.
 
[quote name='sickle']Racism goes both ways you know - should we not have AA for Native Americans (for taking their land and killing most of their people), for Asians (for putting them in concentration camps after Pearl Harbor), and this list could go on.[/quote]

AA is for minorities in general (though it's harder for smaller minorities and Asians are better off on average than whites or other minorities).

[quote name='sickle']If you want to talk this way - then give AA to all women, as they have not gotten same rights as men, and school and job descrimination were a norm, and still happen to this day, just like racism. Unfortunately AA will not change any of that.[/quote]

AA is also for women.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yes hard work is very important.

But still, why should a black kid, or a kid of any race from a shitty school district, have to get a 4.0 to get into a colelge that their white friend from school or a black kid from a better school district got into with a 3.2?
[/quote]

Well my point is that if you get a 4.0, you can get in anywhere and won't have to worry about shit.

With the different GPA vs. school district, you make a very good point. Let me elaborate on my two friends situation.

I have two friends from the same group of friends from high school. One is a successful businessman, one is in jail for murder that was gang related. Both had the same type of grades in high school. One was given an opportunity (got in to Berkeley), one was not.

You do the math. If you give these kids opportunities, 9 times out of 10 they will seize the fucking day and roll with it. Without said opportunities (that DON'T come much in the inner city), they can end up in a completely fucked situation (like my friend who is sitting in county right now).

Unless you've seen this first hand and still refute the point that AA opportunities are good, you're just making a point based on ignorance of poverty and inequality in America.
 
And my point is that it's still not fair for some people to need a 4.0 and others to need a 3.2 or whatever, particularly if it's on the basis of race, location, school district etc.

That's why we need AA, and your story is a good example of the worst case consequences of not having equal opportunities.

I'm not for AA that leads to minorities who didn't work hard getting in over whites who did, or for a welfare state or any of that type of stuff. I'm just for the government doing what they can to help provide opportunities to people who had the misfortune of being born and raised in an area with few opportunities, and to make sure that people who have earned opportunities are not denied them on the basis of race, gender, class etc.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I'm not for AA that leads to minorities who didn't work hard getting in over whites who did[/QUOTE]

That's exactly what happens, and it keeps on happening even after they get in. Why do you think a lot of people are uncomfortable having a doctor that isn't a white as the driven snow male? People who know AA know that the white guy worked the hardest because he was the most discriminated against and had the most to prove and therefore likely understands his practice better.

It's also disheartening that there is even a self-perpetuating culture where you "can't get out" and that culture winds up working its way out into the suburbs where it just self-perpetuates itself into ridiculousness and as a positive thing. I live in a decent suburb, and I once got into an argument back in 5th grade with this black kid. Nothing racial was said or done, but somehow a rumor got around that I called all black people monkeys during that argument. Before I knew it, I was pinned up against the wall by three junior gangbangers and being swarmed by four dozen more black suburban 10 year olds on racial pretenses calling me racial slurs, many of which I didn't understand until years later. It was absolutely ridiculous. That's nearly 50 kids who lived in a good town, went to a decent school, had opportunities, and still got indoctrinated in this shit before they even got hair on their sacks. I can't say what has come of all of them now that we're all grown up, but if they didn't change from that time and grew up as people that suck, the hell with them. The fact that they were black has no bearing on my mind. Garbage knows no color. It all stinks, and it's all disgusting.

So get this stupid culture out of everybody's lives. Stop bitching and moaning about how you must join a gang or work at McDonald's. Elect good people. Stage protests. Activism is what needs to be done. Maybe a little civil disobedience. Yes, there are still racist people in the world. Older people in power might not hire black people because they're racist. That's where social Darwinism needs to come in. Let those people get weeded out while educating young people well. Maybe the older generation is a lost cause, but that's why we have to look to the future. Because people never change, we have to start them off with proper views on racial equality. A good number of those people have been created, but even I agree that there needs to be more.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']Serious business? How isn't the Presidency serious business? You're saying he'll be the only one to take it serious. That makes no sense.[/quote]

Obama isn't going to try instituting bullshit theocratic policy, space programs to Mars, or democratizing areas of the world that hate America and American ideals.

Neither is he going to derail the progressive agenda to get a quicky BJ in the oval office.

Say what you will but I think he's the most serious president we've had in well over a decade. Of course time will tell.

[quote name='KingBroly']It's a no win situation for him on Affirmative Action. He stays away from it, black people are pissed off. He dives into it, white people are pissed off (unless they're people who blame themselves for what their relatives did, even though they had nothing to do with it).[/quote]

If he's smart he'll do nothing because by ignoring the issue he loses almost nothing. Sure a few vocal pundits may bitch and moan but the vast majority of America has never felt that the government should cater to whiners or those who feel they are entitled to an easy ride. And where are those pundits and whiners going to go - to the Republicans? :lol:

Obama is all about keeping majority support, he doesn't strike me as a dummy.
 
Affirmative action applies to any minority. You just have to know who to talk to or what form to fill out when you're applying to a college/university.

Also, have you seen how many casinos the Native Americans own? They call it, "The Red Man's Revenge."
 
[quote name='nathansu']This is not hurting other people what so ever. Chances are while (for example) a black man may get one shot at a job, white people have TONS of opportunities. This doesn't hurt white people one bit.[/quote]

Taking away an admission slot to college or a job opportunity and giving it to someone else based on race isn't hurting anyone? Baloney. If there are 1,000 admission slots and 2,000 people apply, and there is a policy that 15% must be black, you think that non-blacks among the 1,000 rejected wouldn't feel discriminated against (hurt)? That is one of the worst arguments I've ever seen on this forum, and that is saying something.

[quote name='nathansu']No, because I've grown up in tough neighborhoods. I've seen people have the two options for getting money : sell drugs or work at McDonalds. There is NO other option for them. They do not have the luxury of getting a loan for school, having their parents pay for school, etc, like MOST white kids have.[/quote]

You are ignorant as to poverty in America. Let me enlighten you with some facts, if you are willing to be enlightened:

http://www.census.gov/prod/2008pubs/p60-235.pdf

In 2007, there were 37.3 million people in poverty in the U.S. 10.5 percent of whites were in poverty and 24.5 percent of blacks, 10.2 percent of Asians and 21.5 percent of Hispanics. Therefore, despite your anger that "MOST" white kids have those things, you should realize that "most" kids of all races in the U.S. have those opportunities.

Also, to your point below that "most of the poor" in this country are black or Hispanic, try this on for size:

Number of poor (note that Hispanics can be of any race and thus these don't add to the total of 37.3 million)
whites 25.12 million (non-Hispanic whites are 16.03 million)
blacks 9.24 million
Hispanics 9.89 million
Asians 1.35 million

That should put paid to another of your misconceptions.

[quote name='nathansu']People who have actually experienced these things first hand tend to have a better viewpoint on them. People who have never experienced such a thing are simply ignorant about the situation and speculate from the world completely outside the actual issue.[/quote]

Funny you consider me "ignorant" of the situation when you prove yourself to be through your own words, which are demonstrably false.

[quote name='nathansu']One of my best friends got into Berkeley because of this. He lived in what was "the hood" where we grew up (shots fired every night, etc). So again, experience trumps ignorant speculation.

Now he's doing fantastic, has a great job, provides for his family. Without this he easily could have gone the other route.

Another friend of mine wasn't so lucky. He involved himself in some really heavy shit, ran with one of the local gangs, and ended up killing someone (not saying that's right). Given the right opportunities, he would have been just fine. But the only option for him to get money was to slang and run with a gang to provide money for his family - so he's serving 25 to life for it.

Here's the funny thing - the poorest in the country happen to be mostly black or hispanic. Since you have such a high correlation, you are targeting low income rather than race.

Lotsa ignorance, not much experience FTL.[/QUOTE]

I am happy for your successful friend and sad for your unsuccessful one. Regardless, these cases are anecdotal evidence and therefore don't mean much compared to the stats I cited above.

Yes, there are a higher proportion of blacks and Hispanics that are in poverty than whites and Asians. My problem is not with those facts, which are after all facts, but that you attempt to use it as a justification to discriminate against innocent people who happen to be born with a different color of skin because of that.
 
Last edited by a moderator:
[quote name='dmaul1114']But this thread really highlights why I hate the conservative viewpoint. They're against stuff like AA and say to fix schools. But then they get their panties in a bunch when people propose raising some taxes to put more money into innercity schools so they can pay good teachers enough to come there and stay there, have the technology in the classroom to give a modern education, provide basic supplies to all students etc. etc. And on a personal level these self centered assholes probably vote down every local school levy.[/QUOTE]

Except for we already put huge amounts of money into our schools, and that amount has been increased dramatically in recent years. Unfortunately, more and more money spent has not equaled results.

The problem with schools is it's a corrupt system controlled by the teachers unions. When Washington D.C. can spend $18,000 or whatever crazy amount they're spending per student and have some of the worst schools in the country, you know that the system is part of the problem. Government-run schools have led to outrageous amounts of overhead and waste. They should be privatized for the sake of our children, but our cowardly politicians won't do so for fear of upsetting teachers unions. Which isn't that big if a deal for the rich suburban district, but really is a crippling blow to those with the hardest path.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Also, bmull and principe are acting like college campuses are being overrun by the colored folk. Last time I went down to IU, it was pretty white. I was just at San Jose State and UC-Berkeley a couple weeks ago and it's mostly white. Why are you so against setting aside a couple slots for minorities? Maybe you like your schools all white-washed out.[/QUOTE]

I can't speak for bmulligan, but I never said that. Again you put words into my mouth.

And that last sentence is really a low blow and an outright lie. Don't be a fuckwit.
 
[quote name='nathansu']You do the math. If you give these kids opportunities, 9 times out of 10 they will seize the fucking day and roll with it. Without said opportunities (that DON'T come much in the inner city), they can end up in a completely fucked situation (like my friend who is sitting in county right now).[/quote]

Do you base all your opinions and positions solely on anecdotal evidence? It sure seems that way. Again you are factually incorrect here.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=1635

And again you have the temerity to call me "ignorant." :roll:
 
[quote name='Chuplayer']That's exactly what happens, and it keeps on happening even after they get in. Why do you think a lot of people are uncomfortable having a doctor that isn't a white as the driven snow male? People who know AA know that the white guy worked the hardest because he was the most discriminated against and had the most to prove and therefore likely understands his practice better.

It's also disheartening that there is even a self-perpetuating culture where you "can't get out" and that culture winds up working its way out into the suburbs where it just self-perpetuates itself into ridiculousness and as a positive thing. I live in a decent suburb, and I once got into an argument back in 5th grade with this black kid. Nothing racial was said or done, but somehow a rumor got around that I called all black people monkeys during that argument. Before I knew it, I was pinned up against the wall by three junior gangbangers and being swarmed by four dozen more black suburban 10 year olds on racial pretenses calling me racial slurs, many of which I didn't understand until years later. It was absolutely ridiculous. That's nearly 50 kids who lived in a good town, went to a decent school, had opportunities, and still got indoctrinated in this shit before they even got hair on their sacks. I can't say what has come of all of them now that we're all grown up, but if they didn't change from that time and grew up as people that suck, the hell with them. The fact that they were black has no bearing on my mind. Garbage knows no color. It all stinks, and it's all disgusting.

So get this stupid culture out of everybody's lives. Stop bitching and moaning about how you must join a gang or work at McDonald's. Elect good people. Stage protests. Activism is what needs to be done. Maybe a little civil disobedience. Yes, there are still racist people in the world. Older people in power might not hire black people because they're racist. That's where social Darwinism needs to come in. Let those people get weeded out while educating young people well. Maybe the older generation is a lost cause, but that's why we have to look to the future. Because people never change, we have to start them off with proper views on racial equality. A good number of those people have been created, but even I agree that there needs to be more.[/QUOTE]

This is one of the most well-written posts I've seen on this forum.
 
[quote name='Chuplayer']People who know AA know that the white guy worked the hardest because he was the most discriminated against and had the most to prove and therefore likely understands his practice better.[/quote]

Wowzers, so no one who is black could possibly be qualified for any job? I did not peg you for a racist up until now :X.
[quote name='Chuplayer']
It's also disheartening that there is even a self-perpetuating culture where you "can't get out" and that culture winds up working its way out into the suburbs where it just self-perpetuates itself into ridiculousness and as a positive thing.
[/quote]

It is an EXTREMELY positive thing. You're acting like gang bangers are being imported into the suburbs, which simply isn't true. What actually happens (in the real world, which apparently you don't live in) is underprivileged kids get good opportunities, get to the point where they can buy a home in the suburbs, do so, and live like a normal human being.

[quote name='Chuplayer']
So get this stupid culture out of everybody's lives. Stop bitching and moaning about how you must join a gang or work at McDonald's. [/quote]

Clearly you haven't been to the point where it's either A) You make $5 an hour minimum wage and barely pay the bills in the projects or B) Slang/join a gang and actually make a decent living. In all seriousness, kids in the projects only have these options.

What is the other option? If they have NO money to go to school, have NO support from parents to do so, and have NO support from society, what in the fuck are they supposed to do?

You've come off like someone who has lived in the suburbs all their lives, was not educated about how hard it can be on the streets for people by your parents, and assumes that everyone is as blessed as you.

I'd love to see what would happen to you if you were dropped off in South Central with $10, no support, and told "good luck out there". Maybe then you'd understand what people go through. Until then you probably shouldn't run the risk of sounding so ignorant about the subject.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']This is one of the most ignorant posts I've seen on this forum.[/quote]

Fixed.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Do you base all your opinions and positions solely on anecdotal evidence? It sure seems that way. Again you are factually incorrect here.

http://www.capmag.com/article.asp?id=1635

And again you have the temerity to call me "ignorant." :roll:[/quote]

First hand experience trumps linking to a study that isn't scientific.

Your logic unit clearly needs to be replaced. That or you live in the midwest.
 
[quote name='nathansu']First hand experience trumps linking to a study that isn't scientific.

Your logic unit clearly needs to be replaced. That or you live in the midwest.[/QUOTE]

You're a moron (2 cases of anecdotal evidence > even an unscientific study?).

I linked to the US Census Bureau but you haven't replied to that, of course. I'd like to see how many friends' experiences will trump that in your mind.
 
You must log in or register to reply here.
bread's done
Back
Top