Resident Evil 5, N'Gai Croal and the ugly reaction

[quote name='insertcleverthing']That's fine. -Great even. You can think whatever you want so long as you aren't beating the dead horse made of straw.[/QUOTE]

So you can believe what you want, as long as it is something that people haven't said before at length.

Huh.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']So you can believe what you want, as long as it is something that people haven't said before at length.

Huh.[/quote]

For clarification


Straw Man Argument

A straw man argument is an informal fallacy based on misrepresentation of an opponent's position. To "set up a straw man" or "set up a straw man argument" is to describe a position that superficially resembles an opponent's actual view but is easier to refute, then attribute that position to the opponent (for example, deliberately overstating the opponent's position).

A straw man argument can be a successful rhetorical technique (that is, it may succeed in persuading people) but it carries little or no real evidential weight, because the opponent's actual argument has not been refuted.




For example, saying N'Gai Croal is calling RE5 a racist game, and then claiming it isn't racist game, is a straw man argument.
 
[quote name='insertcleverthing']Yes, that is exactly what I meant.[/QUOTE]

Wow, I don't really know who you are, but you've been really annoying the past couple days. Bye.
 
this whole controversy is fail, I found an evil non-black person in the game

re58vy1.jpg

glad to see this case is closed, now lets look at italian stereotypes in Nintendo games
 
[quote name='Ikohn4ever']this whole controversy is fail, I found an evil non-black person in the game

re58vy1.jpg

glad to see this case is closed, now lets look at italian stereotypes in Nintendo games[/quote]



see now, this is another good example of a straw man argument.


thanks for illustrating my point!
 
The thing that everyone fails to realize is that we DON'T know the full story behind the villagers. They could very well be effected by something that causes them to act that way before they're fully taken over by the virus.

I think it's bad form on N'Gai's part to call the game when he's only seen a couple of videos. If anything, wait until the game is released, and then say the developers were being racially insensitive or whatever you want.

Unless he's trying to start a controversy now with the hope of getting Capcom to make the changes he thinks are necessary, in which case, he's completely crazy.
 
[quote name='Grave_Addiction']Unless he's trying to start a controversy now with the hope of getting Capcom to make the changes he thinks are necessary, in which case, he's completely crazy.[/QUOTE]

Honestly, I think he just wants more hits on his blog.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Honestly, I think he just wants more hits on his blog.[/QUOTE]


Precisely,


where was N'Gai when Rockstar had us "killing the Haitians" in GTA Vice City.

Where was N'Gai when Cole Train was acting like a streotypical black person in Gears of War. (although when I was playing the game I didn't have a problem with him, I actually liked the character and I still do)

Where was N'Gai during the mess of bad [but true] streotypes in GTA San Andreas.

Where was N'Gai when people across the internet was laughing at HBCU Football.(game) (how about writing about them, and help get them on the map) I love HBCU bands, and can't wait to see that aspect of football implemented in a game.
 
[quote name='elwood731']If anyone had interest, my full reaction to the controversy. I address some of the issues raised within this thread.

http://www.gamewithabrain.com/2008/04/18/editorial/race-croal-conrad-and-resident-evil[/quote]

I like your article a great deal better, it presents the issue much more fairly (I hate to say it but NGai is out in loony-tunes left field on this one)

What Res Evil 5 should do to balance their cultural insensitivity evenly is to introduce:

An somewhat stupid American badass who solves all problems exclusively with his fists/guns
A sexy Asian "Black Widow" character who knows martial arts (of course...)
A cheesy, chauvinistic Spanish ladies man
A stereotypically idealized girl teenager who is spunky, brave, and sexually naive
An evil foreign cult leader
Simple, naive, and dirty European villagers
Idiotic, inept, and corrupt European law enforcement

OH WAIT THEY HAVE ALREADY DONE ALL OF THAT
 
[quote name='Thomas96']Precisely,


where was N'Gai when Rockstar had us "killing the Haitians" in GTA Vice City.

Where was N'Gai when Cole Train was acting like a streotypical black person in Gears of War. (although when I was playing the game I didn't have a problem with him, I actually liked the character and I still do)

Where was N'Gai during the mess of bad [but true] streotypes in GTA San Andreas.

Where was N'Gai when people across the internet was laughing at HBCU Football.(game) (how about writing about them, and help get them on the map) I love HBCU bands, and can't wait to see that aspect of football implemented in a game.[/quote]

I don't understand the fuss over Cole Train. Yeah, he's a stereotypical black guy, but who cares? He's a bad ass character, and everyone loves him.

The gaming industry has been built upon stereotypes of all kinds, not just black people.
 
[quote name='Grave_Addiction']I don't understand the fuss over Cole Train. Yeah, he's a stereotypical black guy, but who cares? He's a bad ass character, and everyone loves him.

The gaming industry has been built upon stereotypes of all kinds, not just black people.[/QUOTE]


I don't have a problem with Cole Train.. but I was reading an article about it (don't remember where) but Gears is a game set on another planet, entire different world, and Cole is acting like a streotypical black male on earth at this time) Everytime, I see a black person in a game, I don't need him/her acting like a streotypical black person.

But I'm not really complaining about Cole, because like I said, when I was playing the game, I enjoyed Gears, I enjoyed Cole too.
 
I thought the character of Cole Train was just a rehash of the Terrence Tate Office linebacker character set in the gears world. Or Maybe that actor just cant stretch his abilities far enough to separate the 2 characters. Regardless I still liked Cole. He was funny.

On a side note I just finished Half life 2 and I have to say seeing a black scientist as one of the main supporting characters didn't make me think "wow a black man who is smart in a video game"
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Honestly, I think he just wants more hits on his blog.[/quote]

So do I.

And I think the gameblogs are exactly the same.

N'gai gives a racist comment, the gameblogs take the worst bits of that comment and then post it up on their sites, to generate a reader fuss.

Gaming journalism = tabloids.
 
[quote name='homeland']
On a side note I just finished Half life 2 and I have to say seeing a black scientist as one of the main supporting characters didn't make me think "wow a black man who is smart in a video game"[/quote]


that's PRECISELY the point! You DIDN"T NOTICE! It was a guy who just happens to be black. That's the opposite of a "Cole Train" type character.

He didn't talk like a Gansta or "urban" or whatever. I think Valve has done a great job with their characters. Alex doesn't look like she stepped out of a rap video or "came from the streets", she's just a regular girl who happens to kick a whole lot of ass. You meet regular people of all kinds.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Honestly, I think he just wants more hits on his blog.[/quote]


yeah, why are those black folks trying to ruin our good time! they're just too sensitive!

right?!
 
[quote name='doc_zaius']yeah, why are those black folks trying to ruin our good time! they're just too sensitive!

right?![/QUOTE]

Wow. I challenge you to take what I said further out of context. Just try. It's not possible.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Wow. I challenge you to take what I said further out of context. Just try. It's not possible.[/quote]


damn straight. I gave it 100% the first time.
 
[quote name='doc_zaius']that's PRECISELY the point! You DIDN"T NOTICE! It was a guy who just happens to be black. That's the opposite of a "Cole Train" type character.

He didn't talk like a Gansta or "urban" or whatever. I think Valve has done a great job with their characters. Alex doesn't look like she stepped out of a rap video or "came from the streets", she's just a regular girl who happens to kick a whole lot of ass. You meet regular people of all kinds.[/quote]

The thing people also need to realize is there are a lot of black people who fit the Cole Train mold. So why do developers have to stay away from portraying a black character the way that some black people act like?
 
[quote name='Grave_Addiction']So why do developers have to stay away from portraying a black character the way that some black people act like?[/QUOTE]

Because of watchdogs like N'Gai Croal, who will do anything to draw attention to their blogs/views.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Because of watchdogs like N'Gai Croal, who will do anything to draw attention to their blogs/views.[/quote]
These seven pages are evidence that it works
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']And therein lies the real shame of all this.[/quote]


for someone who hates this thread so much, you sure do post a lot.
 
and btw, belittling the author isn't making his points any less valid.



ad hominum isn't any more successful than straw man approaches.
 
[quote name='doc_zaius']for someone who hates this thread so much, you sure do post a lot.[/QUOTE]
I never said that I hated this thread.

[quote name='doc_zaius']and btw, belittling the author isn't making his points any less valid.[/quote]
Not a problem. They weren't valid to begin with, so he has nothing to lose.
 
[quote name='doc_zaius']now please get the last word in....[/QUOTE]
I already did, in the post right before yours.

Once you start completely fabricating statements and sentiments of mine completely out of nowhere, you lose.
 
[quote name='Grave_Addiction']The thing people also need to realize is there are a lot of black people who fit the Cole Train mold. So why do developers have to stay away from portraying a black character the way that some black people act like?[/QUOTE]

because it's the one stereotype that's always potrayed. Like it was said on mtv.com in the interview, gears was set in a different planet, and cole was acting like he was from earth
 
theres a difference between gamers and supposed-gamers who are journalist. writing an issue about something that isnt there are what journalist do. this was first presented by mtv's multiplayer blog, i believe, and it made me cringe. i never took that blog seriously since they immediately pulled out the race card on resident evil 5. one of their biggest supporters is N'Gai Croal. N'Gai's a smart guy, some original articles on his blog, but i didn't expect this from him. in the end, he's more of a Fox News guy than our typical blogger. what a shame really.
 
I don't understand how this is even an issue. Won't most gamers kill ANY zombie no matter what race it is? Isn't that what we are trained to do? I'm just not buying his argument - if RE5 was set in Europe in the 1940s and there were "skinny, emaciated, Hasidic-looking" zombies coming after me I wouldn't think twice about blowing them away - they're freaking zombies!!! If Capcom put the faces of everyone I knew on the bodies of the zombies I still wouldn't have a problem with it - all zombies must die!!! It's like science or something...
 
[quote name='Grave_Addiction']The thing people also need to realize is there are a lot of black people who fit the Cole Train mold. So why do developers have to stay away from portraying a black character the way that some black people act like?[/quote]


In order for the gaming culture to be taken seriously as any other form of media they also have to consider their audience regardless of what they think the demographic of video game players. If your releasing it to the public you have a responsibility. True character development includes establishing the background of character and then presenting them to your audience. Which means zero research as far Cole and RS 5 was done in reference to people of African decent.


In reference to Cole Train, he was a random/stereotypical character Epic just threw together and left it's audience either saying "thats true" or "does it always have to be grape soda" or wow "I''m glad there a cool black guy" in this game. These reactions are what i got from 4 of my friends at least.

If Epic said hey Cole was recruited from slum somewhere in the future then maybe the "grape soda nitpicking" might have been less in your face blow to some gamers. See there's some character development to set the tone of the character Epic could have used which would explain Coles love for grape soda.

As far as I'm concerned theres a helluva alot more Black or other race of people who don't fit the the mold if you a lot harder and do better research.BTW ELMWOOD731 good piece I thought in shed some light on some the things N'gai was trying to address.
 
[quote name='inthecutt']In order for the gaming culture to be taken seriously as any other form of media they also have to consider their audience regardless of what they think the demographic of video game players. If your releasing it to the public you have a responsibility. True character development includes establishing the background of character and then presenting them to your audience. Which means zero research as far Cole and RS 5 was done in reference to people of African decent.


In reference to Cole Train, he was a random/stereotypical character Epic just threw together and left it's audience either saying "thats true" or "does it always have to be grape soda" or wow "I''m glad there a cool black guy" in this game. These reactions are what i got from 4 of my friends at least.

If Epic said hey Cole was recruited from slum somewhere in the future then maybe the "grape soda nitpicking" might have been less in your face blow to some gamers. See there's some character development to set the tone of the character Epic could have used which would explain Coles love for grape soda.

As far as I'm concerned theres a helluva alot more Black or other race of people who don't fit the the mold if you a lot harder and do better research.BTW ELMWOOD731 good piece I thought in shed some light on some the things N'gai was trying to address.[/quote]

Well that is the definition of a stereotype isn't it? Yeah, there may be people in real life who act like that but the character's attributes are often used as a crutch or an easy shortcut to any true character development. Throw in a few phrases and the audience just identifies "Oh, that's the hip Urban black dude."


The problem is that we see it repeated over and over ad nauseum. Almost as irritating as having every female lead and/or villain sporting DDD breasts with waterballoon physics.
 
[quote name='inthecutt']In order for the gaming culture to be taken seriously as any other form of media they also have to consider their audience regardless of what they think the demographic of video game players. If you're releasing it to the public you have a responsibility. True character development includes establishing the background of character and then presenting them to your audience. Which means zero research as far Cole and RE 5 was done in reference to people of African descent. [/quote]

Fixed your atrocious spelling.

Now, what kind of fucking character development do you need for zombies?

This is the kind of politically correct bullshit that gaming doesn't need.
 
Gears of War II ... the part of Private Augustus Cole, aka "The Cole Train" is now being played by Tiger Woods. There, are you happy now? :lol:
 
i was gonna type up something but i noticed someone said the same thing on the kotaku site...

N'gai says - What was not funny, but sort of interesting, was that there were so many gamers who could not at all see it. Like literally couldn’t see it. So how could you have a conversation with people who don’t understand what you’re talking about and think that you’re sort of seeing race where nothing exists?

some guy posted - I think this speaks more about Croal's own prejudices on what he sees than anything else. When I saw the trailer, I didn't see evil people - I saw what looked like impoverished people just getting by on daily life when shit hits the fan. The imagery is like that because, duh, it's a horror game. The problem with Croal isn't his own prejudices, but rather that he presumes he is thinking for everyone else. Don't tell me what I see. I see what I see. YOU see what YOU see.
 
I haven't read any posts in the thread but this reminds me of a South Park episode where none of the kids find the town flag racist (several white stick figures hanging a black one) since they were just looking past the color. The Spaniards didn't complain about Resident Evil 4 (as far as I know). So killing only white people would be acceptable?
And there's also the stupid fact that has probably been mentioned about the development team being Japanese in regards to N' Gay's (hah) question about the lack of black people on it.

GRUMBLE GRUMBLE GRUMBLE
 
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