Rumor that next Xbox won't play used games

[quote name='McCHitman']And this is the problem to me with digital distribution. Could you imagine if all the previous game generations were digital only? Honestly, how much of those games would be preserved?

I like DD, but I prefer physical media. I have 28 fantastic XBLA games and can't play them on the 360 in my bedroom because it's not connected to the internet, If I copy them to the harddrive I still can't play the full game due to the license issue and no connectivity. I think that is dumb. I don't know if the games industry is ready to move to an all digital format due to the amount of people that aren't even connected to online services.

Eh, who knows. But if the next console doesn't have a Disc drive, the probability for me buying it is pretty low.[/QUOTE]

And you haven't networked your bedroom because? Powerline modules can be had really cheap and you don't need much throughput to keep logged into XBL. I assume you have connectivity somewhere in the house. Extending it isn't expensive or obtrusive.

I don't buy the preserving the past argument. The elimination of used games provides incentives tot he publishers to keep past games alive and for sale. Look at the Game Room on XBL, where you can play emulated arcade games going back to the 70s.

The best incentive to preserve something is profit. Nintendo can make good money off someone who only uses their Wii to play Virtual Console games. It's very lucrative when you consider the low cost of creating an emulator for such old platforms and that the games themselves had their costs paid off decades ago.
 
[quote name='McCHitman']That's my problem with EULA's also. I had a in depth conversation with my mom about it a few months back, can't remember what sparked it, some news story I think. It's to the point where, you have to accept them to use a lot of things, but could you imagine if everything was like this?

Your car is only licensed to you, you don't own it. Your home...it's absurd. Absolutely absurd.[/QUOTE]

Millions of people live that way right now. It's called leasing and renting, respectively.
 
[quote name='SaraAB']

I am glad I am getting all 3 consoles this gen, as if next gen goes this way I will be skipping it totally. Or Nintendo will become king if Sony and MS require online connectivity to play their games, as I don't think Nintendo would require online for their games and I don't think they would implement measures so that their games couldn't be played if they were used.

[/QUOTE]

Are we talking about the same Nintendo that managed to have retail used video game sales outlawed in Japan for many years? Nintendo was trying to kill used game sales before some of the people on this site were born. They'd jump on this with both feet if the deemed it workable.
 
[quote name='tbassett']I don't know if i agree with that. If i get this next gen xbox/ps4 and don't connect online when i insert a game how will my system know if this particular game has been activated. Maybe the system will write that data to the disc but then all consoles will have to have a writeable disc drive(assuming they are disk based) and that will add cost that they will try to avoid. I really don't see this happening yet.[/QUOTE]

Demo mode only without activation. Long established standard in the software industry.
 
They'd lose way too much money from video game rental stores to carry out this plan. Might as well get a decent computer and switch to Steam if anything like this actually gets a greenlight.
 
[quote name='earl_thespider']They'd lose way too much money from video game rental stores to carry out this plan. Might as well get a decent computer and switch to Steam if anything like this actually gets a greenlight.[/QUOTE]

the only rental store left is blockbuster and they might not be in business for long.
 
[quote name='confoosious']Completely blew my mind too when I read it. I'll try to find a link.

edit: http://www.ripten.com/2012/03/28/ga...gen-consoles-wont-prevent-play-of-used-games/[/QUOTE]

Notice he used 2010 numbers when 2011 numbers have been available for quite a while. What he didn't want to mention is the decline in Gamestop's market influence. And guess where a lot of that went? XBLA, PSN, Steam, Origen, etc.

Gamestop is where Blockbuster was ten years ago. They can see doom on the horizon and will deny, deny, deny as they look for an exit strategy.

I don't expect Microsoft or Sony to do a sudden cutoff of retail game sales. It will be a gradual process that is already underway. Games sold online will get bigger and bigger and more and more titles will become exclusively sold through online venues.

There is an old line about how to boil a frog. Throw it in a pot of boiling water and it will jump out. But put it in a pot of cool water and heat it gradually until the frog loses consciousness works just fine.

For a glimpse of the future look at the Sony Vita. It has 250 PSP games available for purchase online but not a single existing UMD can be used on the Vita. On the native library, nearly every item is expected to be available for download purchase. Sony is positioned to cut B&M retail out of the Vita picture whenever it suits their purposes. This isn't likely but the use of flash memory for the retail distribution medium and not just for game saves and downloads suggests Sony has some plans. Flash is more costly than mask ROM but avoids the production hassles of mask ROM. Sony can just order up ten million Vita cards and make them be whatever game is needed at the moment.

But will this always happen in a Sony factory or might it become something that happens at retail storefronts? Imagine something like a Redbox DVD rental machine that instead sells Vita cards with the chosen game written to it on the spot and the label printed to match. Walmart and Target would be perfectly happen to host these machines as long as they get a piece off the top. Supermarkets, too. It's just another vending machine.

This doesn't eliminate used game sales by itself but that could be done by having the machine wirelessly communicate with the customer's Vita to get it's internal ID code to be inserted into the game as it is written to the card. It would just be a variation on the function that exchanges hails with other Vitas in range.
 
[quote name='earl_thespider']They'd lose way too much money from video game rental stores to carry out this plan. Might as well get a decent computer and switch to Steam if anything like this actually gets a greenlight.[/QUOTE]

Let me see if I understand this. In objection to a platform that doesn't allow resale of used games you're going to switch to a platform that doesn't allow resale of used games?
 
[quote name='mrx001']Digital only console will be expensive especially with ISP capping people.[/QUOTE]

Unless the caps are absurdly low amounts nobody would notice. How many games are you going to buy in one month?

Cable companies have already cut deals with Microsoft to not count their Xbox apps against the monthly cap. So if you're on Comcast the Comcast Xfinity service get favored over any competing service you might access from the Xbox.

I imagine they can work something out to mitigate download caps for XBLA purchases.

http://venturebeat.com/2012/03/27/xbox-entertainment-usage-comcast/
 
[quote name='epobirs']Notice he used 2010 numbers when 2011 numbers have been available for quite a while. What he didn't want to mention is the decline in Gamestop's market influence. And guess where a lot of that went? XBLA, PSN, Steam, Origen, etc.

Gamestop is where Blockbuster was ten years ago. They can see doom on the horizon and will deny, deny, deny as they look for an exit strategy.

I don't expect Microsoft or Sony to do a sudden cutoff of retail game sales. It will be a gradual process that is already underway. Games sold online will get bigger and bigger and more and more titles will become exclusively sold through online venues.

There is an old line about how to boil a frog. Throw it in a pot of boiling water and it will jump out. But put it in a pot of cool water and heat it gradually until the frog loses consciousness works just fine.

For a glimpse of the future look at the Sony Vita. It has 250 PSP games available for purchase online but not a single existing UMD can be used on the Vita. On the native library, nearly every item is expected to be available for download purchase. Sony is positioned to cut B&M retail out of the Vita picture whenever it suits their purposes. This isn't likely but the use of flash memory for the retail distribution medium and not just for game saves and downloads suggests Sony has some plans. Flash is more costly than mask ROM but avoids the production hassles of mask ROM. Sony can just order up ten million Vita cards and make them be whatever game is needed at the moment.

But will this always happen in a Sony factory or might it become something that happens at retail storefronts? Imagine something like a Redbox DVD rental machine that instead sells Vita cards with the chosen game written to it on the spot and the label printed to match. Walmart and Target would be perfectly happen to host these machines as long as they get a piece off the top. Supermarkets, too. It's just another vending machine.

This doesn't eliminate used game sales by itself but that could be done by having the machine wirelessly communicate with the customer's Vita to get it's internal ID code to be inserted into the game as it is written to the card. It would just be a variation on the function that exchanges hails with other Vitas in range.[/QUOTE]

Gee, future s****.

I always wondered what would happen if other industries would do the same as the entertainment industry does.

To me, its crossing a line. Now ok, its not announced so far and we will have to see ones it will hit the shelfs if it really does, but if it did i would not buy any of these consoles.

For that reason Steam and any other service s**** on the pc so much. You buy it, but your rights are very limited. You practically do not own it.

One day you don't even own your pc anymore, you just can use it since the software controls everything. Sad future.

Anyway i hope it does not turn out that way. Where will be the fun?
 
I don't doubt that the industry will go full digital. That's not what I'm arguing against.

The point is that it's not gonna be NEXT gen.
 
[quote name='yester']Gee, future s****.

I always wondered what would happen if other industries would do the same as the entertainment industry does.

To me, its crossing a line. Now ok, its not announced so far and we will have to see ones it will hit the shelfs if it really does, but if it did i would not buy any of these consoles.

For that reason Steam and any other service s**** on the pc so much. You buy it, but your rights are very limited. You practically do not own it.

One day you don't even own your pc anymore, you just can use it since the software controls everything. Sad future.

Anyway i hope it does not turn out that way. Where will be the fun?[/QUOTE]

People have been attending theatrical movie presentations for over a century now. When it's done, your money is gone and all you have is memories. But people keep going, long after videotapes and DVDs became commonplace and cheap.

People will pay for entertainment if they see it as giving good value. It's that simple. The game companies only ever sold cartridges and discs because that was the only way to do it at the time. Prices will adjust accordingly to come more in line with theatrical viewings, culminating in a balance between movie ticket prices and current game prices as the typical game provides a much great duration of entertainment.
 
It is true that it's a value judgment.

If download only games were $20 or less I'd probably be ok with it. Above that it gets dicey, especially if they're launching at $50-60 and being slow to drop in price.

I don't mind paying $10 to see a movie in the theater as I'm much more into movies than games, its something fun to do with a date or group of friends etc. But that's just me, others find it a rip off and are more into games and thus have a different value judgement and would be willing to pay more for a game they couldn't resell.
 
:shrugs: Well... the they won't be taking my money, sad the don't want it. I do more android gaming than xbox anyway... lol
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']:shrugs: Well... the they won't be taking my money, sad the don't want it. I do more android gaming than xbox anyway... lol[/QUOTE]

How many used games have you bought or sold on your Android device?
 
I ran into something that really gave me pause today.

The head of Gamestop insist the used game gravy train couldn't possibly stop any time soon. But today I went into a Gamestop store for the first time in several weeks and noticed an interesting change: A substantial amount of shelf space was now given over to selling download codes. Both for add-ons and entire games on the Xbox, PS3, 3DS, and Vita.

They've been doing this on their web site for a long time, along with place like Amazon, but giving over B&M space for such low margin items that can never pass through their resale engine is a new development.

Gamestop knows where things are headed and is trying to stay relevant.
 
The key again is price. Android and iOS games are very cheap. They usually launch at $5-10 for most games, with many launching cheaper. And then there are frequent sales in the .99 cent to $3 range.

Full on console games have huge development budgets so they're not going to hit anywhere near that price. Publishers are going to want to still launch at $50-60 due to those high budgets for 3D HD console games, and will keep prices up as long as they can so I'd expect sales to be less frequent than with disc games currently where retailers have leeway to put things on sale.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']The key again is price. Android and iOS games are very cheap. They usually launch at $5-10 for most games, with many launching cheaper. And then there are frequent sales in the .99 cent to $3 range.

Full on console games have huge development budgets so they're not going to hit anywhere near that price. Publishers are going to want to still launch at $50-60 due to those high budgets for 3D HD console games, and will keep prices up as long as they can so I'd expect sales to be less frequent than with disc games currently where retailers have leeway to put things on sale.[/QUOTE]

Agree with you on all points, speaking personally though I've paid $60 for less than 10 360 games (out of about 400 +) and I'm not going to pay $60 for any DL only game, I'd probably not even pay $40.

I think that publishers think that a used game less market will be some kind of utopia for them where they can charge $60 for something they don't even have to pay manufacturing costs for, I think they will be sadly mistaken.

I think prices will come down, if they don't I'm out.
 
Yeah if done correctly I don't think 'no used games' will kill the game industry.

I won't like it, but as a practical manner I think most folks will suck it up and deal.

I also don't see business going back to PCs. Console gaming will still be a much cheaper option, even with 'no used games'.

The only reason they might not do this is that it could give their competitors an edge, and possibly the legal challenge.

I think there is alot of mythos about the power of the consumer on this issue, the vast majority of money is made from the casual gamer and I doubt they will care.
 
[quote name='camoor']I think there is alot of mythos about the power of the consumer on this issue, the vast majority of money is made from the casual gamer and I doubt they will care.[/QUOTE]

Outside of the rarer cases, I don't think that's true. It's true for Guitar/Band Hero, Mario, CoD/MW, GTA, etc.

But remember, the average Wii owner bought like 3 games total. Casuals can't really support most of the industry.

Another problem is time. Even if you lower the price of games, it doesn't mean people will buy it. At a certain point, most people will have too much to play, and stop buying more, especially if they're casuals.

Either way sounds like the start of a crash.
 
[quote name='epobirs']I ran into something that really gave me pause today.

The head of Gamestop insist the used game gravy train couldn't possibly stop any time soon. But today I went into a Gamestop store for the first time in several weeks and noticed an interesting change: A substantial amount of shelf space was now given over to selling download codes. Both for add-ons and entire games on the Xbox, PS3, 3DS, and Vita.

They've been doing this on their web site for a long time, along with place like Amazon, but giving over B&M space for such low margin items that can never pass through their resale engine is a new development.

Gamestop knows where things are headed and is trying to stay relevant.[/QUOTE]

They are making a lot of money on download codes because they are the only store where you can go and pay cash for download codes. Even if they make a small amount on each code I bet they sell quite a lot of them. A lot of people want to buy DLC but don't have credit cards to do so with. Though I don't understand why people just wouldn't buy points cards with their cash and go and spend the points cards on what they want from the marketplace.

I don't think GS will be able to sustain a whole business model on selling download codes for cash though. The ideal would be if they would set up a kiosk where you could insert cash and get download codes that you go home and enter onto your console.

I like the idea of being able to purchase DLC items individually instead of having to buy a points card, where you ultimately get leftover points or dollars in your account that you can't use (but most casuals probably won't care about this). I am not sure why you can't just buy something individually with a credit card on the online marketplaces, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but if retailers can fill this void then that would be great.

The casual gamer expects that they would be able to buy a disc, go home, play it then trade it back into GS then use the credit to buy more games and if the gamer is casual enough they will probably just be sticking with their Xbox 360, Wii or PS3 when they find out about no used games, if it actually happens. The casual gamer might also not connect their systems online, which means they want to put a disc in and play it and that is it. This also means they could be excluded from this gen if the systems do not function without an internet connection. This would be bad because gamestop sells a lot of copies of call of duty and madden to this group! The trend I am seeing is the casual computer and game users are just switching to phones, they don't have a computer and internet connection at home, they just use their smartphone for everything. I know quite a few people who have this setup.

The extreme casual gamer has already been converted to iOS devices or their cell phones, or they are already happy with the Wii and the 3 games they own for it so they are not really relevant to Gamestop right now. I don't think this type of gamer can be sold on another Wii right now, as 99% of them have already converted to iDevices. They won't pay $200+ for another games system and $50 games when they are satisfied with 99 cent apps on their cell phone which they already have. The value of 99 cent apps is undeniable right now, and even I am in the group that does not want to purchase another portable device because I am happy with my iPod touch. I have a DSi too, and a ton of gameboys, so if I want to play a RPG I am good, and I have plenty of those. But I could easily, and very easily live off of an iPod touch alone for portable entertainment. I won't be purchasing a 3DS and its $40 games anytime soon that's for sure (also, I can't see 3D).

Gamestop's iOS device trade in program is more for gamers who want to get store credit for their old devices, I don't see this being too relevant for the extreme casual gamers, because they won't really have a use for GS store credit.
 
I think the question is not so much if the game industry will survive, rather what will change.
If you not allowed to insert a used game or a copy from a friend, then the experience is very limited.
The industry is telling you more and more what you can and can't do with a piece of hardware you need to buy in order to participate.
There is also the factor price. If there are no used copies to buy or use, then there is no incentive for publishers to lower the price. A game could be for a very long time at a premium.
So it boils down to YOUR limited right over a product YOU buy. All the right lay with THEM.
If they would really implement this 'feature' i certainly would not buy a console or at least not from a company that forces me to.

The majority will opt in regardless and thats why it will work for them. Most people don't care.
Sadly, i do care and so i don't pay.

But the phenomena is quite old now. Just check Steam with its store. It proven that people will buy new and have no right to sell the old game afterwards. People love it and using it.
 
If rumors are true about requiring you to pay a fee to unlock a used game. I will 100% not even consider picking up the new console.
 
Steam is also very cheap and is known for their sales, I think most of us would be willing to pick up a game for $5 retail even though the ability to sell it would be gone. Most games drop in price on Steam, just as they would in a retail store and probably even drop further.
 
[quote name='elessar123']Outside of the rarer cases, I don't think that's true. It's true for Guitar/Band Hero, Mario, CoD/MW, GTA, etc.

But remember, the average Wii owner bought like 3 games total. Casuals can't really support most of the industry.

Another problem is time. Even if you lower the price of games, it doesn't mean people will buy it. At a certain point, most people will have too much to play, and stop buying more, especially if they're casuals.

Either way sounds like the start of a crash.[/QUOTE]

I guess it's all how you define Casual. I'm talking about the kind of gamer who will go out and buy Madden every year maybe COD or GOW and possibly a few other heavily-advertised mainstream games for Xmas.

IMHO those AAA aren't going anywhere. However I have no idea what's going to happen to niche titles...
 
I define casual in the same way, the guy or girl who buys the latest madden, call of duty or halo so they can play with their friends. Perhaps maybe 1-2 other popular games a year.

Extreme casual would be the people who only have a cell phone and the games on that, and they own no other games.
 
[quote name='SaraAB']They are making a lot of money on download codes because they are the only store where you can go and pay cash for download codes. Even if they make a small amount on each code I bet they sell quite a lot of them. A lot of people want to buy DLC but don't have credit cards to do so with. Though I don't understand why people just wouldn't buy points cards with their cash and go and spend the points cards on what they want from the marketplace.

I don't think GS will be able to sustain a whole business model on selling download codes for cash though. The ideal would be if they would set up a kiosk where you could insert cash and get download codes that you go home and enter onto your console.

I like the idea of being able to purchase DLC items individually instead of having to buy a points card, where you ultimately get leftover points or dollars in your account that you can't use (but most casuals probably won't care about this). I am not sure why you can't just buy something individually with a credit card on the online marketplaces, doesn't make a whole lot of sense to me, but if retailers can fill this void then that would be great.

The casual gamer expects that they would be able to buy a disc, go home, play it then trade it back into GS then use the credit to buy more games and if the gamer is casual enough they will probably just be sticking with their Xbox 360, Wii or PS3 when they find out about no used games, if it actually happens. The casual gamer might also not connect their systems online, which means they want to put a disc in and play it and that is it. This also means they could be excluded from this gen if the systems do not function without an internet connection. This would be bad because gamestop sells a lot of copies of call of duty and madden to this group! The trend I am seeing is the casual computer and game users are just switching to phones, they don't have a computer and internet connection at home, they just use their smartphone for everything. I know quite a few people who have this setup.

The extreme casual gamer has already been converted to iOS devices or their cell phones, or they are already happy with the Wii and the 3 games they own for it so they are not really relevant to Gamestop right now. I don't think this type of gamer can be sold on another Wii right now, as 99% of them have already converted to iDevices. They won't pay $200+ for another games system and $50 games when they are satisfied with 99 cent apps on their cell phone which they already have. The value of 99 cent apps is undeniable right now, and even I am in the group that does not want to purchase another portable device because I am happy with my iPod touch. I have a DSi too, and a ton of gameboys, so if I want to play a RPG I am good, and I have plenty of those. But I could easily, and very easily live off of an iPod touch alone for portable entertainment. I won't be purchasing a 3DS and its $40 games anytime soon that's for sure (also, I can't see 3D).

Gamestop's iOS device trade in program is more for gamers who want to get store credit for their old devices, I don't see this being too relevant for the extreme casual gamers, because they won't really have a use for GS store credit.[/QUOTE]


Gamestop is starting to circle the drain, much like Blockbuster ten years ago. I just didn't expect to see see such a definitive sing this soon. ("Yeah, it's a sign all right! Going out of business!")

I had the same thought. Why wouldn't they just buy a points card? Then I remembered, there is no margin in points cards. At best it's like selling lottery tickets where the store pockets 5 cents on each dollar ticket sold. Content sales probably offers a bit better incentive for the store. But not enough to keep it aflot as time goes on and people are more and more accustomed to buying downloads. I do expect an interim stage will be the equivalent of the Redbox DVD rental machines in supermarkets today. As braodband penetration and throughput improves there is going to be a declining market for those. But for now it is the last gasp of a business that used to have a good sized space in nearly every shopping area in the country.

The heart of the casual gaming world today is downloads to phones, tablet, consoles, PCs; and web based, so if anything that sector is more than ready to never buy another disc. The capability of web browsers for gaming have advanced by leaps and bounds recently.

I'm not a hardcore gamer but far from casual either. I got a Samsung Galaxy SII in February, after four years on a Blackberry that lacked even WiFi. Last week I finally gave in and got a 3DS due to the Target promo price, although I PMed it at BB so I could get the points and put it on my TRU credit card for yet more points. (Whee! Points, points, everywhere!) Part of this was that there are now a fair number of good $10 games for 3DS now, and the Best Buy B2G1 Free this week got me some of the high-end titles for a lot less than MSRP. Though I'm holding off on anything else unless it's $12 or less. I'm past my new platform indulgence and can exercise restraint now.

All of my phone games have been freebies from Amazon or very low priced items from the Android Market but I have noticed there is an increasing number of higher priced items. I strongly suspect the smartphone market is reaching a new group of players who would never have bought a gaming handheld or at least wouldn't be seen with one. But they want more than Angry Birds. We're now seeing ports of early Final Fantasy games on iOS, among others, commanding much higher prices than 99 cent casual exercises.

http://www.maclife.com/article/gallery/23_musthave_rpgs_your_ios_device#slide-0

The iOS and Android game markets are growing to take more and more of the market once reserved for dedicated handhelds. They won't get all of it but Nintendo and Sony have to work harder and be more price competitive with their digital offerings. And this also means the dedicated handhelds shift more toward online sales. A few percent here, a few percent there... Pretty soon there isn't a market for dedicated game stores.

iOS and Android users have so far been willing topay higher and higher prices if the content is up to snuff. There will be a middle ground marking how high they can go and how low the consoles will go for high-end content. I expect it will be somewhere between $30 and $40. Some games that appear cheaper will be episodic and really amount to the highest price point if all of the content is played through.

One thing I found interesting about the 3DS is that Nintendo has loosened up their restrictions on where downloaded software can live. On the DSi (including DSiWare on the 3DS) games must be in the onboard storage to be used. On the 3DS you're free to use as a big of an SD card as you like to host your purchases and you can easily copy over the 3DS content folder from one card to another. Another little sign.

I don't recall if I mentioned this before but I've noticed more and more console games are coming without a real manual. Just the legal boilerplate and enough info to tell you where to stick the disc. The full manual is on the disc and presented on screen. The putative reason for this is 'being green' but it also better positions games for online sale as the primary venue.
 
[quote name='SaraAB']Steam is also very cheap and is known for their sales, I think most of us would be willing to pick up a game for $5 retail even though the ability to sell it would be gone. Most games drop in price on Steam, just as they would in a retail store and probably even drop further.[/QUOTE]

There is absolutely no doubt in my mind that the console makers would have to adopt this policy to make a download only platform work. The industry has long been locked into a pricing strata based on obsolete measurements of the market. When I was working on computer games in the late 80s, the installed base of the Amiga globally was just a few million. Moving 50,000 copies of a game in North America was a big success. Today, a new platform is still considered 'new' until it cross the 10 Million installed base mark, and the biggest sellers have crossed the 100 million mark worldwide.

They already do kind of markdown items to an extent. Many XBLA items have come down in price since their first availability, and others have repeatedly been featured in DOTW 50% off promotions. 80 point/$1 games are common in the Indie section and the size allowed for this price point was recently increased a good bit, going from 150 MB to 500 MB this year. When that change went through a bunch of Indie devs brought their games down from their previous 240 point price. They find it far better to be the bubble gum by the cash register than have a price that makes shopper have to think about it.
 
[quote name='VipFREAK']None.[/QUOTE]

And you're not complaining bitterly about this? Why not? Could it be because the price is such that even a game you found disappointing isn't a big loss?

Console games prices are based on much lower market numbers than actually exist. The formulas were worked out in the 80s and never really adjusted for platforms selling in the tens of millions. They need to come down a good deal on software pricing and seek greater sales volumes.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']It is true that it's a value judgment.

If download only games were $20 or less I'd probably be ok with it. Above that it gets dicey, especially if they're launching at $50-60 and being slow to drop in price.

I don't mind paying $10 to see a movie in the theater as I'm much more into movies than games, its something fun to do with a date or group of friends etc. But that's just me, others find it a rip off and are more into games and thus have a different value judgement and would be willing to pay more for a game they couldn't resell.[/QUOTE]

But note that you pay the same ticket price for a Rom-Com that cost $40 million to make as you do for a $150 million SFX epic. The only real variable is if it is in 3D. That usually costs extra but the word is that it won't for much longer. The working assumption from the studios is that the expensive production will sell far more tickets than the less costly one. You might even pay to see it again. Repeat viewing are where the blockbusters really cash in.

If on a sliding scale $60 for a high budget game is a fair price at launch, a hell of a lot of games are overpriced and should launch at lower prices. A few do this and are disparagingly labeled bargain titles even though they may be a better value at their price than a $60 title that doesn't live up to the hype.
 
The used game market will just turn into:this game has been sitting on shelf for to long new game market.6 months later it's discounted $20.Unless,push comes to shove;sales for this scheme don't go so well and they add an activation system.Then the used market will evolve into: this game disc only has certain amount of activations left.This is a fun discussion.
 
[quote name='epobirs']But note that you pay the same ticket price for a Rom-Com that cost $40 million to make as you do for a $150 million SFX epic. The only real variable is if it is in 3D. That usually costs extra but the word is that it won't for much longer. The working assumption from the studios is that the expensive production will sell far more tickets than the less costly one. You might even pay to see it again. Repeat viewing are where the blockbusters really cash in.

If on a sliding scale $60 for a high budget game is a fair price at launch, a hell of a lot of games are overpriced and should launch at lower prices. A few do this and are disparagingly labeled bargain titles even though they may be a better value at their price than a $60 title that doesn't live up to the hype.[/QUOTE]

All true. But I don't care about any of that stuff in terms of what a game or movie cost to make. All that matters is whether the enjoyment I get out of is worth the price charged.

At current prices, games aren't unless I can resell them to recoup a big chunk of the purchase price. Or wait a year or two for big games to hit $20 or so. So again, if prices come way down on download games I could probably stomach it. But I'm skeptical they will for blockbuster games given the long development times and budgets. They could be a bit cheaper due to not having to pay for making and shipping discs and cases, but that's a small part of the overall budget.

But it's all meh for me. At this point I can't see buying a next gen console even if they are disc based given how much I'm having to force myself to make time to play games these days. Even games like ME3 that I was super stoked for and do enjoy haven't upped my motivation to play. So that's where a lot of my negative value judgement comes from. I think I've finally just got to the point where gaming doesn't do it enough for me anymore. Just need to worth through my current backlog and a few games I haven't picked up yet and sell off/donate my consoles. At my current pace that will take a couple of years anyway! :D
 
[quote name='epobirs']They already do kind of markdown items to an extent. Many XBLA items have come down in price since their first availability, and others have repeatedly been featured in DOTW 50% off promotions. 80 point/$1 games are common in the Indie section and the size allowed for this price point was recently increased a good bit, going from 150 MB to 500 MB this year. When that change went through a bunch of Indie devs brought their games down from their previous 240 point price. They find it far better to be the bubble gum by the cash register than have a price that makes shopper have to think about it.[/QUOTE]
I'm glad that Sony and Microsoft mark things down occasionally, but they have a long way to go before they'll catch up to Steam. An XBLA title that goes on sale for 400 points can easily be found for $2.50 during a Steam sale.

Just look at last week's Games on Demand sale. Are we supposed to be grateful that seven-year-old games were temporarily reduced to $15? The Bioshock games, the Mass Effect games, Borderlands, most of the Assassin's Creed games... They've all been available for $5.00 on Steam on some occasion; usually more than once. Even the digital version of Modern Warfare 2 dipped to $5 a few weeks ago, and that made me do a double-take. Microsoft's efforts just aren't enough.

Sony is getting in the habit of releasing BD Legacy titles for $10. It's still not as good as Steam, but it's a fair price point when you factor in the additional expenses that come with developing for a console. That's a step in the right direction, but even then, the $10 price point isn't a permanent institution. It pops up every now and again to make checking those PlayStation Store Update blog posts worthwhile, but you'll never find a retail title with a regular price of $10.

You can say that "publishers set the prices," but there's got to be a reason why Steam, the PlayStation Store, and the Xbox Marketplace handle retail pricing so differently. Obviously, the motherships have some say in how those games get priced; enough to make these explicit trends observable.

In some ways, it's almost insulting. They recognize that gamers respond to lower prices, but they do the bare minimum to execute it just so they can point to evidence that suggests they're doing something. You want to release a triple-A digital title for $60? Fine. Plenty of people will buy it at that price point. But a year after the fact, I want to be able to download that same title for $20. And during a time when people are already starting to look forward to the next generation, there's no freakin' reason why I should have to shell out more than $10 for a launch title with a dead or comatose online community and two sequels, especially when you're still charging obscene prices for map packs and DLC.
 
Prices are coming down so fast on games that its almost wasting money to buy a $60 game at launch as you know it will be down to $40 in a couple weeks if you pay attention to this site. Preorders for most new games can be had for $47.99 from Newegg. You have to wonder what this means as in previous gens it took A LOT longer for prices to come down on games and it was impossible to get a preorder that cost less than MSRP for the game.

A movie at $10 a pop is outrageous, in the 80's and 90's I paid $3-5 to see a movie and as far as I know the length of your average movie that you see in a theater has not changed since then, its still a 2 hour experience whether I was paying $3-5 or the $10-12 of today. When I was a teenager I think I saw every movie that came out some summers. So I am getting the same experience I had back then I am just paying more for it now. In lots of places theaters charge more than $10 per ticket. However there are lots of ways to get free or discounted movie tickets these days but most of those aren't good for the first 2 weeks of a movie. For the cost of a family of 4 to go see a movie including food at the theater (especially if you choose to see a 3D movie which costs like $15 here per person) they could probably buy a games console! Save up the money that you would have spent on a few movie trips and you have yourself a brand new HDTV!

The movie experience can easily be recreated at home these days as most people have a TV that outclasses the projectors in the movie theater. I notice blips and circles sometimes when I go to the movie theater, an HDTV doesn't have that problem. A movie is viewed on a screen whether its seen in a theater or at home. You can even argue that while the screen will be smaller for most people, watching at home has many advantages over going to the theater. Therefore I don't give that experience much value. I can also rent movies from the library for free, I just have to wait, and I am pretty saturated with things to do so waiting honestly doesn't bother me in the least.

For an experience that I cannot replicate easily at home, like going to a theme park, I am willing to pay more for that type of experience and will happily pay, since I can't get that type of experience from looking at a screen.

For video games pretty much every game is the same to me, IMO, they are all worth the same amount, which these days is about $10-12 per game at the most for me. No matter what features the game touts its still a game that I can play and view on a screen. I don't have a problem with $60 games, since I simply don't pay that price per game.
 
[quote name='Renaissance 2K']I'm glad that Sony and Microsoft mark things down occasionally, but they have a long way to go before they'll catch up to Steam. An XBLA title that goes on sale for 400 points can easily be found for $2.50 during a Steam sale.

Just look at last week's Games on Demand sale. Are we supposed to be grateful that seven-year-old games were temporarily reduced to $15? The Bioshock games, the Mass Effect games, Borderlands, most of the Assassin's Creed games... They've all been available for $5.00 on Steam on some occasion; usually more than once. Even the digital version of Modern Warfare 2 dipped to $5 a few weeks ago, and that made me do a double-take. Microsoft's efforts just aren't enough.

Sony is getting in the habit of releasing BD Legacy titles for $10. It's still not as good as Steam, but it's a fair price point when you factor in the additional expenses that come with developing for a console. That's a step in the right direction, but even then, the $10 price point isn't a permanent institution. It pops up every now and again to make checking those PlayStation Store Update blog posts worthwhile, but you'll never find a retail title with a regular price of $10.

You can say that "publishers set the prices," but there's got to be a reason why Steam, the PlayStation Store, and the Xbox Marketplace handle retail pricing so differently. Obviously, the motherships have some say in how those games get priced; enough to make these explicit trends observable.

In some ways, it's almost insulting. They recognize that gamers respond to lower prices, but they do the bare minimum to execute it just so they can point to evidence that suggests they're doing something. You want to release a triple-A digital title for $60? Fine. Plenty of people will buy it at that price point. But a year after the fact, I want to be able to download that same title for $20. And during a time when people are already starting to look forward to the next generation, there's no freakin' reason why I should have to shell out more than $10 for a launch title with a dead or comatose online community and two sequels, especially when you're still charging obscene prices for map packs and DLC.[/QUOTE]

The different venues have differing motivations for how they conduct their business. The expectation is that the typical shopper on a console's online store isn't a PC gamer and anything happening in that realm is off the radar. People like us who look at the entirety of platforms as a single market are in the minority. Sony and Microsoft expect the great majority of their customers to be ignorant of the very existence of Steam, and certainly not aware of the prices. Notice that the retail disparity between PC and console games has not produced a resurgence of PC game business for the titles that dominate the console market. Many of the biggest drivers in PC gaming have presence on consoles or are considered as preferable for a desktop style of play as opposed to the TV and couch.

The PC gaming market is much farther along in the download sales business. Many very successful games have no B&M presence and many more treat the disc sold at Walmart as a means to get the customer signed up on Steam or Origin. If the game is more than two years old the sheer volume of downloading before play can commence is quite high. It would have saved time on one game I installed recently if the first thing that happened was the Steam login/signup so that it could immediately check to see how much of the original files had been patched and shouldn't be installed. Of the 3 GB on the disc at least half of it was replaced by the initial download session. (This is somewhat like installing the original version of Windows XP with none of the Service Pack and the endless Windows Update session that follows if you don't have local copies of the SPs.) Just buying it online in the first place would have been a lesser hassle with only the latest revision being downloaded.

One thing that hold things back on the console side is the publishers and what holds back the publishers are the mega retailers who won't reduce the old inventory below a certain price. Activision isn't going to do anything to anger Walmart or Target so long as they drive the bulk of B&M and that B&M remains critical. Publishers are very reluctant to undercut their retail partners. It isn't a problem when Best buy decides to have a blowout sale but the prices for XBL Games on Demand are set by the publsiher and the retailers know this. Aggressive discounting of older titles isn't going to happen the way it should while the publishers loyalties remain divided. So long as retailers can order new stock of a Platinum Hit, that same title is not going to be less than $19.99 on XBL.

Only a new platform with a strong emphasis on downloads is going to break that cycle in the console market.

This is also why backwards compatibility has always mattered most to companies that didn't lead the previous generation. It helps reach consumers who didn't buy the previous machine but found some of the exclusives of interest but of greater importance is offering retailers a way to move that old software inventory. Thus the Power Base converter for Genesis but no compatibility for the SNES despite having a good deal of it internally. (The obscure 65816 was primarily chosen to enable BC and help developers transition more easily. There were few compelling arguments for its use outside of that.) The Xbox 360 needed it, the PS3 did not and dropped at the first opportunity to trade reduced cost for features. There was a lot of Xbox software inventory with no new machines while the PS2 was still widely available for purchase and making new inroads into developing markets.

Here is a really simple trick: If you know you can get it cheaper in B&M, buy it there. None of the companies on the other side of the transaction, publisher and/or console maker, care how you get it so long as you get it. It may not make as much money for them as a high online price but it kept you from buying for a competing platform.

The market is theirs to lose. If they don't do it right, customers will find someplace that does. Gaming isn't going away. The brands may change because the companies don't adapt but there will always be someone along to fill a slot left empty by another.
 
[quote name='SaraAB']Prices are coming down so fast on games that its almost wasting money to buy a $60 game at launch as you know it will be down to $40 in a couple weeks if you pay attention to this site. Preorders for most new games can be had for $47.99 from Newegg. You have to wonder what this means as in previous gens it took A LOT longer for prices to come down on games and it was impossible to get a preorder that cost less than MSRP for the game.

A movie at $10 a pop is outrageous, in the 80's and 90's I paid $3-5 to see a movie and as far as I know the length of your average movie that you see in a theater has not changed since then, its still a 2 hour experience whether I was paying $3-5 or the $10-12 of today. When I was a teenager I think I saw every movie that came out some summers. So I am getting the same experience I had back then I am just paying more for it now. In lots of places theaters charge more than $10 per ticket. However there are lots of ways to get free or discounted movie tickets these days but most of those aren't good for the first 2 weeks of a movie. For the cost of a family of 4 to go see a movie including food at the theater (especially if you choose to see a 3D movie which costs like $15 here per person) they could probably buy a games console! Save up the money that you would have spent on a few movie trips and you have yourself a brand new HDTV!

The movie experience can easily be recreated at home these days as most people have a TV that outclasses the projectors in the movie theater. I notice blips and circles sometimes when I go to the movie theater, an HDTV doesn't have that problem. A movie is viewed on a screen whether its seen in a theater or at home. You can even argue that while the screen will be smaller for most people, watching at home has many advantages over going to the theater. Therefore I don't give that experience much value. I can also rent movies from the library for free, I just have to wait, and I am pretty saturated with things to do so waiting honestly doesn't bother me in the least.

For an experience that I cannot replicate easily at home, like going to a theme park, I am willing to pay more for that type of experience and will happily pay, since I can't get that type of experience from looking at a screen.

For video games pretty much every game is the same to me, IMO, they are all worth the same amount, which these days is about $10-12 per game at the most for me. No matter what features the game touts its still a game that I can play and view on a screen. I don't have a problem with $60 games, since I simply don't pay that price per game.[/QUOTE]

I'm always taken aback when someone on here mentions paying full price for a new release. Why are they here?

I regard video games in general as drastically overpriced. I very rarely pay over $15 and usually closer to $10. I recently got a 3DS and made one of my rare new platform indulgence purchases, getting Mario, Star Fox, and Zelda in the recently B2G1 Free at Best Buy. Even then I had to convince myself that the RZ points and TRU credit card points made it worthwhile.

I really don't care what the budget for a game was when it comes to purchasing it. I've never paid more for a movie ticket because the movie had a huge budget. It is up to the maker of the content to create something of such wide appeal as to generate profits by huge sales volume. Something with a narrow audience needs to keep the costs low and hope to do OK and maybe a bit farther if word of mouth is in their favor.

But you aren't actually paying much more for movie tickets. With inflation, $5 from 1985 is $10 in 2010. The price of movie tickets shot up a long time ago but stayed fairly steady as inflation ate away at the value of the ticket price.

But given great wealth to do with as you like, would you really want to see most of the movies coming out in a theater? For me as a teenager in the late 70s & early 80s, going to the movies had a big social component. It also had far more novelty value to my young mind. Today, the idea of having to give all my attention to the average movie sounds like torture. And the stuff I paid to see! It amazes me to think how much I spent on really bad movies and arcade games and the like. Not an immense sum in adult terms but if it had all been put in Apple stock and kept...

Home video was just getting started in the years I spent the most time in movie theaters. But it doesn't appear to have changed things much. Kids go to the movies a lot more often than their elders. It just holds more value for them in a non-monetary sense.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']All true. But I don't care about any of that stuff in terms of what a game or movie cost to make. All that matters is whether the enjoyment I get out of is worth the price charged.

At current prices, games aren't unless I can resell them to recoup a big chunk of the purchase price. Or wait a year or two for big games to hit $20 or so. So again, if prices come way down on download games I could probably stomach it. But I'm skeptical they will for blockbuster games given the long development times and budgets. They could be a bit cheaper due to not having to pay for making and shipping discs and cases, but that's a small part of the overall budget.

But it's all meh for me. At this point I can't see buying a next gen console even if they are disc based given how much I'm having to force myself to make time to play games these days. Even games like ME3 that I was super stoked for and do enjoy haven't upped my motivation to play. So that's where a lot of my negative value judgement comes from. I think I've finally just got to the point where gaming doesn't do it enough for me anymore. Just need to worth through my current backlog and a few games I haven't picked up yet and sell off/donate my consoles. At my current pace that will take a couple of years anyway! :D[/QUOTE]

This is why adulthood is a curse. As soon as you're in the position to have all of the toys you desire, you start to feel responsible and cannot allow yourself to take the time away from more adult-y stuff like making sure your family is fed, clothed and sheltered.

If I won big in the lottery and was asked what I planned to do, my answer would be, "Nothing big. Just take a couple years off to catch up with my game backlog. A decent annuity should sustain me through that."

I suspect I'd only get a few months in before I started feeling an absurd need to be productive.

If there are drugs to help with conditions like ADD, perhaps there is some pharmaceutical solution to avoiding irresponsibility without being too wasted to enjoy it.
 
Oh, I spend plenty of time on hobbies, my gaming interest has just waned again for whatever reason and more of my free time goes to running/exercising, hanging with friends/dates, movies, reading etc.

As for paying full price for games, I'm just here as I like the community. I needed the deals when I first found the site and was a broke as student. Now that I make decent money I don't care that much and usually just by games or movies I want without deal hunting. The only time I deal hunt are for things I'm on the fence about. With games I tend to just wait to get those off Goozex rather than hunting for a deal.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Oh, I spend plenty of time on hobbies, my gaming interest has just waned again for whatever reason and more of my free time goes to running/exercising, hanging with friends/dates, movies, reading etc.

As for paying full price for games, I'm just here as I like the community. I needed the deals when I first found the site and was a broke as student. Now that I make decent money I don't care that much and usually just by games or movies I want without deal hunting. The only time I deal hunt are for things I'm on the fence about. With games I tend to just wait to get those off Goozex rather than hunting for a deal.[/QUOTE]
The way I see it deal hunting can be decoupled from financial status, a lot us enjoy the thrill of buying things cheaper than others. My boss who is a multi millionaire still eats at Costco because their hot dog plus soda is only 1.50.:lol:
 
[quote name='epobirs']I'm always taken aback when someone on here mentions paying full price for a new release. Why are they here?

I regard video games in general as drastically overpriced. I very rarely pay over $15 and usually closer to $10. I recently got a 3DS and made one of my rare new platform indulgence purchases, getting Mario, Star Fox, and Zelda in the recently B2G1 Free at Best Buy. Even then I had to convince myself that the RZ points and TRU credit card points made it worthwhile.

I really don't care what the budget for a game was when it comes to purchasing it. I've never paid more for a movie ticket because the movie had a huge budget. It is up to the maker of the content to create something of such wide appeal as to generate profits by huge sales volume. Something with a narrow audience needs to keep the costs low and hope to do OK and maybe a bit farther if word of mouth is in their favor.

But you aren't actually paying much more for movie tickets. With inflation, $5 from 1985 is $10 in 2010. The price of movie tickets shot up a long time ago but stayed fairly steady as inflation ate away at the value of the ticket price.

But given great wealth to do with as you like, would you really want to see most of the movies coming out in a theater? For me as a teenager in the late 70s & early 80s, going to the movies had a big social component. It also had far more novelty value to my young mind. Today, the idea of having to give all my attention to the average movie sounds like torture. And the stuff I paid to see! It amazes me to think how much I spent on really bad movies and arcade games and the like. Not an immense sum in adult terms but if it had all been put in Apple stock and kept...

Home video was just getting started in the years I spent the most time in movie theaters. But it doesn't appear to have changed things much. Kids go to the movies a lot more often than their elders. It just holds more value for them in a non-monetary sense.[/QUOTE]

I definitely wouldn't invest all my money and time in seeing every movie out there, its not even worth my time. I don't think arcades were really a waste of money, I used to think like that, but just think that, a real arcade with brand new cutting edge games does not exist anymore. I don't think it was a waste because you spent money on an experience that simply does not exist today. There are no arcades in my area anymore, except for D&B which can hardly be considered an arcade. I would have serious regrets if I didn't play some of the arcade games that I did when I was younger, and its an experience I treasure having to this day. There is one particular game I payed a high fee to play but I would be having serious regrets right now (to the point where I would probably be having nightmares about it) if I did not play it because I am basically never going to see it again in my life. I, and many others got to experience something this generation of children will never get to experience. Overall, money well spent.
 
[quote name='SaraAB']Prices are coming down so fast on games that its almost wasting money to buy a $60 game at launch as you know it will be down to $40 in a couple weeks if you pay attention to this site. Preorders for most new games can be had for $47.99 from Newegg. You have to wonder what this means as in previous gens it took A LOT longer for prices to come down on games and it was impossible to get a preorder that cost less than MSRP for the game.

A movie at $10 a pop is outrageous, in the 80's and 90's I paid $3-5 to see a movie and as far as I know the length of your average movie that you see in a theater has not changed since then, its still a 2 hour experience whether I was paying $3-5 or the $10-12 of today. When I was a teenager I think I saw every movie that came out some summers. So I am getting the same experience I had back then I am just paying more for it now. In lots of places theaters charge more than $10 per ticket. However there are lots of ways to get free or discounted movie tickets these days but most of those aren't good for the first 2 weeks of a movie. For the cost of a family of 4 to go see a movie including food at the theater (especially if you choose to see a 3D movie which costs like $15 here per person) they could probably buy a games console! Save up the money that you would have spent on a few movie trips and you have yourself a brand new HDTV!

The movie experience can easily be recreated at home these days as most people have a TV that outclasses the projectors in the movie theater. I notice blips and circles sometimes when I go to the movie theater, an HDTV doesn't have that problem. A movie is viewed on a screen whether its seen in a theater or at home. You can even argue that while the screen will be smaller for most people, watching at home has many advantages over going to the theater. Therefore I don't give that experience much value. I can also rent movies from the library for free, I just have to wait, and I am pretty saturated with things to do so waiting honestly doesn't bother me in the least.

For an experience that I cannot replicate easily at home, like going to a theme park, I am willing to pay more for that type of experience and will happily pay, since I can't get that type of experience from looking at a screen.

For video games pretty much every game is the same to me, IMO, they are all worth the same amount, which these days is about $10-12 per game at the most for me. No matter what features the game touts its still a game that I can play and view on a screen. I don't have a problem with $60 games, since I simply don't pay that price per game.[/QUOTE]

I haven't seen Fallout 3 coming down in price for a long time. So not sure where you get your new games, but i had to wait a long time.
It maybe has something to do with AAA titles but in general prices don't come down so quickly. MW took a long time too. Of course that were games i was looking for.

I can agree on the general point that a price between 10-20 Dollars is ok. And i am ok with waiting too. But at one point you want to buy that game.

Not very convinced about how pricing will play out if there are no used games anymore.
I am sure some people will bypass that eventually. But i don't see why a company would lower the price if there is not even a substitution for it like a used game on the market. There is an even bigger incentive to keep prices for a longer time high. Just look at Nintendos DS titles. I haven't seen mario or zelda titles to be cheaper over time.
 
I got Fallout 3 for $40 a month after it came out on Amazon

I got Modern Warfare 3 for $40 just shy of two months after it came out at Target (right after xmas)
 
Mass effect 3 is already down to like 37.99, I have seen threads for it on here, its only been out for a few weeks.

The Fallout 3 GOTY was available last Xmas for 19.99 and it was easy to get.

I have seen a few posts for Skyrim for $40 and the collector's edition is down to like $60 now.

If you follow the threads on this site, I am not saying you will be able to walk into some retailer and see a $20 drop on games within a couple weeks of launch, you have to watch this site and catch a deal to get them.

You can find Nintendo games on sale, best buy has Ocarina of time for the 3DS for 24.99 right now, and less if you have a coupon on the pre-owned deal of the week. I got Kirby's epic yarn for 7.99 last xmas season during best buy's awesome deals. Kid Icarus was on sale for 29.99 last week. It can be done. I haven't seen a deal on Mario Kart Wii yet and I would really like one, actually I did see a deal it was 29.99 on one of those ebay deals of the day at some point but unfortunately I missed it so that is my own fault. I feel its much easier to find deals on Nintendo published games now than it was last gen. These are just some examples.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']First Apple gets hit with price fixing digital content NEXT comes Sony and Microsoft for their consoles that don't play used games!

http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-501465_...ay-face-e-book-price-fixing-lawsuit-tomorrow/[/QUOTE]

Won't happen. Apple is being sued over accusations of collusion with e-book publishers to keep prices on par with paper editions.

That has no bearing whatsoever on the ability of Apple, Amazon, B&N, and other online booksellers implement DRM on purchases. The terms of the purchases are fully defined and nobody is required to fork out money without the knowledge the item is tied to their account and thus can only be used on supported devices.

It isn't all negative. Both Apple and Microsoft want to see more unification of their platforms via the centralized point of sale. The idea being if you buy a game for your Windows 8 desktop and there is also a version for ARM tablets under WOA, that one purchase gets you the apps everywhere your account lives. The backend deals with which version to send to which machine and syncs things like high scores between them.
 
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