Scientology... with your host, Tom Cruise

[quote name='zionoverfire']But internet spunk is of a completely different nature.;)

I agree with you on rational facts I simply don't want to see you waste hours of your life debating what a ratjional fact is.:lol:[/QUOTE]

I live in West Michigan, I'm used to it :)
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Well you could join me and my crusade to help scientology become an accepted religion, afterall it doesn't seem to be that much more nutty than mormonism.[/QUOTE]

Are mormons so fervent about keeping members, though?
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Oh GOD no. mid-south-west side of the main peninsula[/QUOTE]

Oh okay I was concerned for a second, I've heard about that god forsaken place.:lol:
 
[quote name='jmcc']Are mormons so fervent about keeping members, though?[/QUOTE]

You didn't hear the story about the guy who killed his family because they were straying from the flock?
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Oh okay I was concerned for a second, I've heard about that god forsaken place.:lol:[/QUOTE]

Actually, compared to Holland, I think I'd take god-forsaken
 
[quote name='jmcc']So, if not brainwashing, what's keeping people in cults?[/QUOTE]

The facts that scientology knows all your secrets (by "auditing" - basically interrogating you with a lie detector) and will use them to make sure you stay there. That's just one way; there are many others. Perhaps the most important one is encouraging you not to be in contact with any non-scientologists except to try and convert them, so that by leaving the cult you'd also leave behind everybody you know.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Actually, compared to Holland, I think I'd take god-forsaken[/QUOTE]

Well since I haven't heard about Holland I guess I'll have to take your word on that.:lol:
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Well since I haven't heard about Holland I guess I'll have to take your word on that.:lol:[/QUOTE]

Let's just say the midwest Bible Belt begins here. Holland is the birthplace of the RCA. Not to mention Tulip Time, as mentioned on the Simpsons. So Dutch RCA hardcore up in this piece.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']You didn't hear the story about the guy who killed his family because they were straying from the flock?[/QUOTE]

And he was an official representative of the church?
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Let's just say the midwest Bible Belt begins here. Holland is the birthplace of the RCA. Not to mention Tulip Time, as mentioned on the Simpsons. So Dutch RCA hardcore up in this piece.[/QUOTE]

You lucky man. :rofl:

I'm afriad as nuts go we've only get mormons and skin heads.
 
[quote name='jmcc']And he was an official representative of the church?[/QUOTE]

No, but the people asking for 10% of your wealth a year sure as hell are.:D
 
[quote name='jmcc']And he was an official representative of the church?[/QUOTE]

Hey man, "God spoke to him." He can't afford to let any mormons go :)
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Well, any good public school presents ideas and teaches the students to think about them. Religion is based on faith, and faith requires that you don't think. You cannot prove something by faith. It's very different.[/QUOTE]

But school has never been about making better thinkers. It has always been about assimilation. In other words, the schools aren't trying to be "good schools".

Faith is another issue entirely.

[quote name='jmcc']So, if not brainwashing, what's keeping people in cults? Or, how'd Jim Jones/Charles Manson/Marshall Applewhite get a bunch of people to commit suicide/kill?[/QUOTE]

Just because you don't understand the appeal it is automatically brainwashing? I don't know what keeps people in cults, but if I had to guess I would say that some people are just nutjobs.

Did you ever think that those people wanted to commit suicide or wanted to kill and the cult just provided them with encouragement? Eldad gave some pretty good reasons.


[quote name='camoor']So you're not christian? Or you're not supporting creationism?

Either way, please close out the creationism vs evolution thread. I dont even know what you were arguing, but if you're for teaching evolution then we're on the same side on that issue.[/QUOTE]

You could say that I am a christian, but I don't consider creationism a valid scientific theory. I've said many times that it is not. I'm not sure if we are on the same side of the evolution issue or not, but I think it is offtopic for this thread.
 
How is this brainwashing any different than the crap the Catholic church has been shoving down your throat for 2000 years? Does being older make it more correct? Is it right because there are books written about it? Well guess what. Someday, Scientology will be old too and it has a shit load of books written about it.

As ridiculous as Catholics/Christians see Scientology is how rediculous I see them. People join the 'religion' and stay. There must be something there that makes them happy. Have they been brain washed into thinking its more than it is? Do you believe in angels? Men with wings sitting on clouds high above your head lead by an inconceivably large man in a rob with a big fuckin beard that knows all that ever has been and ever will be that you heard about in a 2000 year old book that has been translated 15 times and has more versions that there are days of the week... Yea... Scientology is brain washing people.

At least Scientology didn't sweep across Europe killing everyone that didn't agree with them. :roll:
 
[quote name='Kayden']How is this brainwashing any different than the crap the Catholic church has been shoving down your throat for 2000 years? Does being older make it more correct? Is it right because there are books written about it? Well guess what. Someday, Scientology will be old too and it has a shit load of books written about it.

As ridiculous as Catholics/Christians see Scientology is how rediculous I see them. People join the 'religion' and stay. There must be something there that makes them happy. Have they been brain washed into thinking its more than it is? Do you believe in angels? Men with wings sitting on clouds high above your head lead by an inconceivably large man in a rob with a big fuckin beard that knows all that ever has been and ever will be that you heard about in a 2000 year old book that has been translated 15 times and has more versions that there are days of the week... Yea... Scientology is brain washing people.

At least Scientology didn't sweep across Europe killing everyone that didn't agree with them. :roll:[/QUOTE]

When it started, christianity wasn't so bad and it's hard to blame Jesus Christ for the political hack job that St Paul did to him. St Paul vigorously worked to wipe out the gnostics, a christian group who were really the last hope of not entering the tailspin of European history known as the dark ages.

Just because someone believes in spiritual entities like angels, it doesn't mean they were brainwashed. Indeed, I think the new scientific materialism that is in vogue today is somewhat myopic, and logic is thoroughly overrated. That being said, when christians say they "feel" their god coursing through their veins or muslims go in a frenzy and attack satan pillars in the middle of mecca, I am always suspicious that more malovent forces are at work. I am also naturally skeptical of men who call themselves gods on earth.

Scientologists have contributed to the death of people who wanted to leave their cult.
 
[quote name='camoor']When it started, christianity wasn't so bad and it's hard to blame Jesus Christ for the political hack job that St Paul did to him. St Paul vigorously worked to wipe out the gnostics, a christian group who were really the last hope of not entering the tailspin of European history known as the dark ages.

Just because someone believes in spiritual entities like angels, it doesn't mean they were brainwashed. Indeed, I think the new scientific materialism that is in vogue today is somewhat myopic, and logic is thoroughly overrated. That being said, when christians say they "feel" their god coursing through their veins or muslims go in a frenzy and attack satan pillars in the middle of mecca, I am always suspicious that more malovent forces are at work. I am also naturally skeptical of men who call themselves gods on earth.

Scientologists have contributed to the death of people who wanted to leave their cult.[/QUOTE]

Crap, so 2 apples plus 2 apples doesn't mean 4 apples?
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']No, it means invade Iraq.:D[/QUOTE]

There was logic behind that wasn't there? There wasn't? Oh, you mean it was perpetrated by a president who is a puppet for a Christian fundamentalist group called Project for a New American century who would like to spread American Imperialism across the globe? Gotcha.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']There was logic behind that wasn't there? There wasn't? Oh, you mean it was perpetrated by a president who is a puppet for a Christian fundamentalist group called Project for a New American century who would like to spread American Imperialism across the globe? Gotcha.[/QUOTE]

:whistle2:$ They know where you live.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Well, if I suddenly stop posting, write me a letter at Guantanamo Bay[/QUOTE]

Guantanamo?:rofl:

You're going to the front lines.:D
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Guantanamo?:rofl:

You're going to the front lines.:D[/QUOTE]

That wouldn't work. I'd just join the insurgency. They don't need a turncoat on their hands. :lol:
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Crap, so 2 apples plus 2 apples doesn't mean 4 apples?[/QUOTE]

Read what I said. Overrated. I never said logic is not useful or that it cannot be used to describe cetain aspects of everyday phenomena.
 
[quote name='camoor']Read what I said. Overrated. I never said logic is not useful or that it cannot be used to describe cetain aspects of everyday phenomena.[/QUOTE]

Not sure how you can call our basis for understanding the experiential nature of existence overrated.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Not sure how you can call our basis for understanding the experiential nature of existence overrated.[/QUOTE]

My opinion is that a strict materialist or mathematical realist view of the world misses many important elements of the human experience.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']what else do you need to know about the human experience other than that if I kick you in the nuts, it's gonna hurt?[/QUOTE]

Big man. Why don't you go talk some shit to the Shaolin monks and see what happens :lol:
 
[quote name='camoor']Big man. Why don't you go talk some shit to the Shaolin monks and see what happens :lol:[/QUOTE]

I'm not saying that if I get kicked in the nuts it won't hurt. I fully acknowledge the material nature of my jewels.
 
[quote name='camoor']My opinion is that a strict materialist or mathematical realist view of the world misses many important elements of the human experience.[/QUOTE]

I never thought we would agree on anything. :D

[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Not sure how you can call our basis for understanding the experiential nature of existence overrated.[/QUOTE]

I'm not sure if camoor agrees with this, but I would say it is overrated because many people think it is the whole enchilada, when in fact neither empirical nor mathematical viewpoints can address everything.
 
[quote name='sblymnlcrymnl']Why do you continue to profess the spiritual as fact? It is a construct of your mind, existing only because you will it so.[/QUOTE]

It is not a construct of the mind any more than any other aspect of reality. Rational thinking necessitates that there exist things beyond empirical or mathematical reality. The only way to deny it is to deny logic. Feel free to deny logic if you want, but don't expect any sane person to take you seriously.

Anyway, why is this thread getting pulled off topic? I thought we were talking about cults. The facts surrounding the spiritual nature of reality have about as much to do with cults as semiconductor physics have to do with cheapassgamer.com. One deals with the nature of reality, the other with the social behavior of human beings.

So getting back to cults, I'd like to hear why some of you think that cult members are brainwashed rather than agents of their own free will.

I'd also like to know what you guys think is the difference between the kind of indoctrination performed by governments (such as in the US public school system) and the indoctrination performed by cults. Bard already said that he thinks US schools promote critical thinking. I disagree. I think that at worst, they indoctrinate children with government ideals ("capitalism is good, communism is bad") and teach them how to fall in line with the rest of society (until recently the school system overtly discouraged alternative cultures and tried to make immigrant children fit into american culture), and at best, they are a holding tank for unproductive members of society (like prison).
 
[quote name='sblymnlcrymnl']Why do you continue to profess the spiritual as fact? It is a construct of your mind, existing only because you will it so.[/QUOTE]

What is logic, if not a construct of the mind?

Indeed, it is possible that the spiritual exists without the mind but the same cannot be said for logic.

I don't like the implications of labeling the spiritual as factual/non-factual. Currently, science is unable to either prove or disprove the existence of entities that are invisible (but not imperceivable) to the common, fully-conscious man.

There is obviously some hostility towards the spiritual community from the strict materialists here, and I believe it is the result of some clever but divisive politicians and the simplistic dogmatic thinking of at least 51% of the US population. I can understand it, when schlock like this still gets routinely posted on the internet:

http://www.nccg.org/occult/Occult-Page.html

PS You've got to check this link out. Sample titles include "Surely There's No Harm in YOGA - or is There?" and "THE HIDDEN DANGERS OF HALLOWEEN (FAQ)"
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']How did this go from religion to spritual matters? Because the two are quite different, if not mutually exclusive.[/QUOTE]

Yeah. Come on Spoony, reel it back in for us. I posted a few comments directed at you.
 
I don't think there's anythign to reel back in, other than the fact that this spun way off the primary argument. My issue is that any organized religion/cult/etc. is just a societal construct with the purpose of control and power. I'm not against a generalized spirituality. I've already been dead once, so I can't discount all of that. It's when people feel the need to enforce an ideology while discrediting others that really bothers me. Christian religions, in particular, are far too exclusive for my tastes. Not to mention that it's all a bunch of bunk.
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Please do tell.:D[/QUOTE]

Nothing too exciting, and in fact, I can't really remember it. My mother and I both were clinically dead on the table when I was born. She's the one who remembers everything, as far as the being dead goes. Once we both came back, I was supposed to be permanently retarded due to the umbilical cord cutting off my oxygen in the womb. And here I turned out to be quite the opposite.
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard'] And here I turned out to be quite the opposite.[/QUOTE]

Sure, and here I thought it would be something that counted.;)
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Why you frontin' on me, zion? :shame:[/QUOTE]

Because I'm the big man of the forum.;)

So you want to continue to bash on religion or should we let this topic die?
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Because I'm the big man of the forum.;)

So you want to continue to bash on religion or should we let this topic die?[/QUOTE]

Eh, I've had my fill. If I ever get the itch, I can always walk down the block. There's plenty of religion around here :bouncy:
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Eh, I've had my fill. If I ever get the itch, I can always walk down the block. There's plenty of religion around here :bouncy:[/QUOTE]

True but down the block they can probably also kick your ass and if not they can at the very least egg your house.;)
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']True but down the block they can probably also kick your ass and if not they can at the very least egg your house.;)[/QUOTE]

I just pick on the invalids
 
[quote name='zionoverfire']Ah I see kicking your own family members, but hey whatever makes you happy.[/QUOTE]

Damn, didn't see that one coming... :applause: bon mot, you bastard
 
[quote name='BigSpoonyBard']Damn, didn't see that one coming... :applause: bon mot, you bastard[/QUOTE]

I really hate it when people just rollover and die.
 
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