Sega VP of Marketing Bashes Wii - Now Praising Wii after a couple of angry calls

[quote name='dafoomie']
What does Wii have going for it? It has the controller, Nintendo titles, and price. It also has less graphical capability than the original Xbox. When 360 and PS3 decline in price to say, $199, what mass market appeal is left?
[/quote]

1. The control is a VERY big thing it has going for it.

2. Do you have any idea how long it will be before the PS3 is anywhere NEAR $200? The WiiHD will be out and kicking by then.
 
I am so fucking sick of people being forced to post retractions when they say something negative especially with the Wii. Sega guy really wasn't that harsh at all and his criticisms can be taken as valid.
 
They CAN be taken as valid. Except they arent valid. But thats hardly the point.

Its no good for this kind of thing to happen without the mother company coming out and making sure everyone knows that he's not speaking for the company at large. Its not polite to say bad things about people you are currently doing business with.

If someone from Epic or something wants to say something about Nintendo, thats fine.
 
[quote name='schuerm26']1. The control is a VERY big thing it has going for it.

2. Do you have any idea how long it will be before the PS3 is anywhere NEAR $200? The WiiHD will be out and kicking by then.[/QUOTE]
1. Some 3rd parties seem to have trouble using it in a meaningful way. Plus, you could say that some genres do not lend themselves well to the controller and you almost have to design the game around it, its backwards game design.

2. 360 could be $199 in a year or two, its the price they're targetting long term.


I think the Wii will be a successful and profitable venture for Nintendo, but 3rd party titles will be an issue again for those reasons.
 
[quote name='furyk']I am so fucking sick of people being forced to post retractions when they say something negative especially with the Wii. Sega guy really wasn't that harsh at all and his criticisms can be taken as valid.[/QUOTE]


The Wii is not a fad. It will not fade away and the wiimote has already proven that it is just as good if not better than a pad. I see no valid points. All I see is Wii hate thinly veiled in regurgitated weak arguments. In Scotts case it was pure fanboy cheerleading.

It gets repeated over and over, but people just don't seem to get it. Graphics don't win console wars or make good games. Better graphics isn't innovative anymore. All you people creaming your pants over PS3 should realize that you are playing the same games you were playing 5 years ago with better visuals. If that's something to get excited about then this industry is fucking doomed.
 
Sure, a lot of genres are comfortable with traditional controls. Its just AN OPTION. Not all DS games work well with stylus control. Thats why not every developer uses it. You can have a regular game that just uses plain old buttons, but with a lower development cost.

360 isnt in a position to compete in price even in the long term, but I dont think they are that concerned about the Wii. They're not in a position to significantly encroach on each other's user bases.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']You can have a regular game that just uses plain old buttons, but with a lower development cost.

[/QUOTE]


Thats hard to do with just two buttons.
 
[quote name='rodeojones903']Thats hard to do with just two buttons.[/QUOTE]

The wii has 8 buttons including the D-pad in two handed nunchuk mode. Not including the + - or 1 2 buttons. And of course there is always the GC controller or the Classic Controller.

Sigh...
 
[quote name='Scrubking']The wii has 8 buttons including the D-pad in two handed nunchuk mode. Not including the + - or 1 2 buttons. And of course there is always the GC controller or the Classic Controller.

Sigh...[/QUOTE]


Yes, but its very awkward to use the + and - buttons while using the wiimote either sideways or with the nunchuck. Using the Wiimote alone you really can only use two buttons (three if you knuckle the trigger), add the nunchuck and you are at four ( C, Z, A, and the trigger). You can not use all 8 buttons at the same time. For a developer to require a person to use a last gen controller or buy the classic controller will be limit their user base.

Its limiting and awkward to use the wiimote for standard controls.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']The same time? How many buttons can you access simultaneously while keeping both thumbs on two sticks?[/quote]Not only that but tell me why would one need to use 8 buttons at once. I mean even in the GTA or racing games you are only pressing like what three to four buttons max?
 
[quote name='dragonreborn23']Just because something is hard to find, (presumably because it has sold very well) doesn't mean that it is superior. It means it's a hot product in the minds of the masses. Will minigame compilations satisfy the casual gamers that Nintendo is pandering to? Yes, but one man's 'innovation' is another man's 'sellout'. Every time I post something like this, the Wii owners start screaming at me, "The games are coming! They just started developing recently!" Fine. When the games get here, I will gladly shut up (and probably pick up a Wii ;) ).[/QUOTE]

yeah of course not...numbers sold means nothing to performance...im a car guy and that to me holds water....i would to pick up a ps3...no doubt about it..but the 600 price tag just says 3 car payments and it makes me cringe..but hey if it drops in price and if wiis become abundant...ill buy both lol. haha you know when people are fanboys is when they attack that statement...its like hurting their ego or something....
 
I can't seem to understand why everyone keeps saying the Wii is just a fad or how the controls are merely gimmicks. Everyone said THE EXACT SAME THING ABOUT THE DS. Look at it now. Not only did it actually outsell the GBA (Nintendo originally said the DS would not replace the GBA and that they wouldn't be competing side-by-side), but it's still even outselling the PSP and is actually selling higher than certain consoles.

Remember when the DS first came out? Remember all of those damned games that had gameplay involving the touch screen that felt really tacked on? It's like that with the Wii right now only minigames. Remember how the more awesome games came out for the DS later? Same will happen eventually with Wii once developers stop screwing around. Metroid Prime 3 will be an excellent example.

Now, in regards to what the Sega VP of Marketing said, I have to say a big LOL. Why? He's working for the same company who would not release RPGs for the Sega Saturn in the US. The same company that canceled Shenmue II for the Dreamcast in favor of the Xbox, saying it would sell MUCH better on Xbox. The same company that published Sonic Heroes, Sonic Riders, Shadow the Hedgehog, Sonic the Hedgehog (2006) and Sonic the Hedgehog Genesis. The exact same company that nearly went bankrupt after the failures of the CD, 32X, CDX, Nomad and US Saturn were piling up on the poor Dreamcast, which wasn't selling, before deciding to go 3rd party.

If anything, NO ONE in Sega should be bashing any console company's choices after how badly they fucked up. Obviously Nintendo knows what they're doing is they're still around selling consoles and handhelds. I honestly can not remember when the last time Sega released a damn good game that wasn't on the Dreamcast.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']The same time? How many buttons can you access simultaneously while keeping both thumbs on two sticks?[/QUOTE]

Well of course you don't press them at the same time. Many many games have you use all 4 face buttons and shoulder buttons on a standard controller. If there was a wii game that didn't use waggle, but was designed to use all 8 buttons (during gameplay and not just to open menus) it would be a mess.

All that I'm saying is that the wii should not be used for traditional style gaming controls, and developers need to take the time and make their motion controls work.
 
Are people surprised? Wii is the new "kid on the block" so of course it will receive the most criticisms.

At the same time, the people defending Wii to the death need to realize it is WAY to early to determine that waggle is here to stay. Just because the Wii is popular, doesn't mean it is popular among the "right" crowd...if you see what I'm saying.

The GTA, Madde, Halo crowd was huge last generation. You all know who I'm talking about. The male gamer, usually in college, who want's to play mostly EA games. Honestly, I feel it matters what this crowd buys (I'm just talking about America here) to determine the direction developers want to go.

I've also said this before, some developers could just WANT to use the extra horsepower in systems. I know Dr.MK will bring up how developers can save money by making games on the Wii (which is true) but what about a developer that WANTS to make their game have high-def graphics and a typical control style? Just because the Wii = cheap production costs doesn't necessarily mean every developer is going to jump on it. This could be part of the reason we're seeing games like The Darkness only coming to the 360/PS3.
 
The difference between the DS and Wii is that the DS really hasn't forced developers to implement the touch screen if they don't want to. I think this is what has allowed it to have such a great library of games.

I'm starting to think Wii owners are just as sensitive to any negative feedback as PS3 owners. He's just stating his opinion. He's not trying to convince anyone else to believe what he thinks.
 
The classic controller should handle a lot of the traditional games that have more buttons just fine. The few games that really need more than THAT, I suppose I'm alright missing out on.

I disagree that all games should have waggle. It a nice option, and I imagine that most games can find a good implementation for it, but I dont want it counted out completely. There are plenty of designs that will work around one analog stick, the two buttons on it, A+B+4 D-pad directions. Probably the vast majority of games ever created could work on that.
 
I'm just against having things that SHOULD be optional be mandated. Even if I'm very FOR the thing in question for example, it still shouldnt be.

I might be misunderstanding the 360, but one of the things I dislike about it is that achievements, 720p, (live functionality?) is mandatory.

Even if those are all good things, developers should be free to exclude them from their designs if they wish.
 
[quote name='DQT']The difference between the DS and Wii is that the DS really hasn't forced developers to implement the touch screen if they don't want to. I think this is what has allowed it to have such a great library of games.[/quote]
That's what the Classic controller and GameCube controller slots are for and why certain Wii games (like Dragon Ball Z Budokai Tenkaichi 2 and Smash Bros. Brawl) allow you to use GameCube controllers instead of the Wii remote scheme.

Back when DS came out, nearly every game felt like they were forcing the concept behind the touch screen. Some games were either ports with touch screen controls (like Rayman 2, which was already on Dreamcast, Nintendo 64, PC, PSOne and PS2) or new games with the concept behind touch.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Are people surprised? Wii is the new "kid on the block" so of course it will receive the most criticisms.

At the same time, the people defending Wii to the death need to realize it is WAY to early to determine that waggle is here to stay. Just because the Wii is popular, doesn't mean it is popular among the "right" crowd...if you see what I'm saying.

The GTA, Madde, Halo crowd was huge last generation. You all know who I'm talking about. The male gamer, usually in college, who want's to play mostly EA games. Honestly, I feel it matters what this crowd buys (I'm just talking about America here) to determine the direction developers want to go.

I've also said this before, some developers could just WANT to use the extra horsepower in systems. I know Dr.MK will bring up how developers can save money by making games on the Wii (which is true) but what about a developer that WANTS to make their game have high-def graphics and a typical control style? Just because the Wii = cheap production costs doesn't necessarily mean every developer is going to jump on it. This could be part of the reason we're seeing games like The Darkness only coming to the 360/PS3.[/QUOTE]

The right crowd? You mean REAL gamers? You mean HARDCORE gamers? The gamers who come on here to bash the Wii because it's not HD, has widescreen and doesn't have shiny, bump mapped graphics?

Seeing how Nintendo is selling consoles faster than stores can stock them I tend to think that this "crowd" doesn't matter. However, in spite of this fact they are working hard to cater to them by more aggressively going after games like Manhunt 2, Godfather and Resident Evil 4. I don't understand how people don't see this.

And I agree with you that developers want to make games with the best graphics. Why? Because the gaming industry is chock full of graphics whoring devs who want to stick to the current business model of better graphics + stale gameplay = easy money.

Of course they don't want to go to the Wii because if they did they would actually have to use their damn brains and come up with something new, fresh and original instead of slapping bump maps on gameplay that we've seen a million times.

The gaming industry is a graphics industry. There is no question about it. Everything (wrongly), revolves around graphics and Nintendo decided to change that. That is why so many devs and gamers who have been brainwashed see the Wii in such a negative/skeptical light.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']The right crowd? You mean REAL gamers? You mean HARDCORE gamers? The gamers who come on here to bash the Wii because it's not HD, has widescreen and doesn't have shiny, bump mapped graphics?

Seeing how Nintendo is selling consoles faster than stores can stock them I tend to think that this "crowd" doesn't matter. However, in spite of this fact they are working hard to cater to them by more aggressively going after games like Manhunt 2, Godfather and Resident Evil 4. I don't understand how people don't see this.

And I agree with you that developers want to make games with the best graphics. Why? Because the gaming industry is chock full of graphics whoring devs who want to stick to the current business model of better graphics + stale gameplay = easy money.

Of course they don't want to go to the Wii because if they did they would actually have to use their damn brains and come up with something new, fresh and original instead of slapping bump maps on gameplay that we've seen a million times.

The gaming industry is a graphics industry. There is no question about it. Everything (wrongly), revolves around graphics and Nintendo decided to change that. That is why so many devs and gamers who have been brainwashed see the Wii in such a negative/skeptical light.[/QUOTE]


Dear lord, does Nintendo pay you to say half the stuff you blurt out? Ok, let's address all these issues.

- People bash the lack of HD (well, in Wii's case lack of ED) and widescreen, because it is lazy on a developers part NOT to include it. ESPECIALLY when Nintendo always advertises a Wii with LCDs. It makes NO sense for every game Not to be in widescreen and 480p. Defend it all you want, but it's lazy.

- You say you feel the crowd doesn't matter, but the developers sure do. 3 mature "cool" games aren't enough (especially when 2 of those games have been out for quite some time). Is the Wii selling like crazy? Sure, but to who? The hardcore gamers make up such a tiny percentage of gamers. I'm more interested in (once again, this is just America) what system the gamers I described before buy. Will the college guys want to go for a Wii to get their Madden fix? Or will they opt for the Ps3/360. I can't say for certainty, but I have a feeling they'd be more inclined to go with the PS3/360.

- Being a college student myself, I was constantly being asked by casual or curious fans if they could play the Wii. Yes, yes I know my college experience is in no way a factual way of seeing who is mostly playing the Wii, but why is it so unbelievable that the majority of people buying the Wii are people who don't normally play games, and parents for their kids because it's a lot cheaper?

- Which brings me to the next point, if this IS the majority of people buying the system, why WOULD they care about graphics? You have this agenda against graphics like they killed your family. Why did you even buy a system past the NES? I just don't get how someone can say graphics and story don't matter. Is game-play important? of course, but how about all THREE should matter. I want it all, graphics, story AND game-play.

- You act like nothing new or fresh is being done with the 360/PS3, and that's the problem with your bias. Just because it's the same controls we've become accostomed to, in no way means that developers can't put out something new (Dead Rising for example) or fresh (Little Big Planet comes to mind)

- In conclusion, pull your head out of the sand, please.
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Dear lord, does Nintendo pay you to say half the stuff you blurt out? Ok, let's address all these issues.

- People bash the lack of HD (well, in Wii's case lack of ED) and widescreen, because it is lazy on a developers part NOT to include it. ESPECIALLY when Nintendo always advertises a Wii with LCDs. It makes NO sense for every game Not to be in widescreen and 480p. Defend it all you want, but it's lazy.

- You say you feel the crowd doesn't matter, but the developers sure do. 3 mature "cool" games aren't enough (especially when 2 of those games have been out for quite some time). Is the Wii selling like crazy? Sure, but to who? The hardcore gamers make up such a tiny percentage of gamers. I'm more interested in (once again, this is just America) what system the gamers I described before buy. Will the college guys want to go for a Wii to get their Madden fix? Or will they opt for the Ps3/360. I can't say for certainty, but I have a feeling they'd be more inclined to go with the PS3/360.

- Being a college student myself, I was constantly being asked by casual or curious fans if they could play the Wii. Yes, yes I know my college experience is in no way a factual way of seeing who is mostly playing the Wii, but why is it so unbelievable that the majority of people buying the Wii are people who don't normally play games, and parents for their kids because it's a lot cheaper?

- Which brings me to the next point, if this IS the majority of people buying the system, why WOULD they care about graphics? You have this agenda against graphics like they killed your family. Why did you even buy a system past the NES? I just don't get how someone can say graphics and story don't matter. Is game-play important? of course, but how about all THREE should matter. I want it all, graphics, story AND game-play.

- You act like nothing new or fresh is being done with the 360/PS3, and that's the problem with your bias. Just because it's the same controls we've become accostomed to, in no way means that developers can't put out something new (Dead Rising for example) or fresh (Little Big Planet comes to mind)

- In conclusion, pull your head out of the sand, please.[/QUOTE]

They didn't bother tp put in HD because apparently it doesn't really matter to most people buying a game system. Maybe you didn't get the memo but the Wii has been the best selling console since November.

Who cares what most college kids buy? Most college kids don't know their ass from a hole in the ground anyway. My apologies to the ones who do. It might be important for you to fit in but a nice chunk of people buy what they like and not what the college kids are playing.


"Being a college student myself, I was constantly being asked by casual or curious fans if they could play the Wii. Yes, yes I know my college experience is in no way a factual way of seeing who is mostly playing the Wii, but why is it so unbelievable that the majority of people buying the Wii are people who don't normally play games, and parents for their kids because it's a lot cheaper?"

Well just a few paragraphs up you say, "The hardcore gamers make up such a tiny percentage of gamers." Well since the HC gamers are such a small % I guess that the people buying the 360 and PS3 are also casual gamers? Hello?


"but why is it so unbelievable that the majority of people buying the Wii are people who don't normally play games"

They're the same people who are buying the PS3 and 360, casual gamers. Since the % of HC gamers are so small, which I agree with BTW. Someone is buying these systems and I doubt the HC gamers are buying 5 or 6 360s or Wiis.

Most of the people I know who own Wiis are people who have/or at one time played video games.

Graphics matter to a point, IMO. A shit games with great graphics is still a shit game at the end of the day. A great game with so-so graphics is still a great game. I don't think the Wii graphics are bad at all. It's the graphic whores who complain constantly about them not being as good as the 360 and PS3.

Nintendo was straight from the beginning and if all you care about are the graphics skip the Wii and move along.

In the end the developers will follow the console/consoles that sell well. Graphics are nice and all but if this time next year the Wii is still selling like crazy you will be seeing A LOT more games coming out for it. Hell even know you are starting to see more companies pushing to bring games out for it.
 
[quote name='Blitz']They didn't bother tp put in HD because apparently it doesn't really matter to most people buying a game system. Maybe you didn't get the memo but the Wii has been the best selling console since November.

Who cares what most college kids buy? Most college kids don't know their ass from a hole in the ground anyway. My apologies to the ones who do. It might be important for you to fit in but a nice chunk of people buy what they like and not what the college kids are playing.


"Being a college student myself, I was constantly being asked by casual or curious fans if they could play the Wii. Yes, yes I know my college experience is in no way a factual way of seeing who is mostly playing the Wii, but why is it so unbelievable that the majority of people buying the Wii are people who don't normally play games, and parents for their kids because it's a lot cheaper?"

Well just a few paragraphs up you say, "The hardcore gamers make up such a tiny percentage of gamers." Well since the HC gamers are such a small % I guess that the people buying the 360 and PS3 are also casual gamers? Hello?


"but why is it so unbelievable that the majority of people buying the Wii are people who don't normally play games"

They're the same people who are buying the PS3 and 360, casual gamers. Since the % of HC gamers are so small, which I agree with BTW. Someone is buying these systems and I doubt the HC gamers are buying 5 or 6 360s or Wiis.

Most of the people I know who own Wiis are people who have/or at one time played video games.

Graphics matter to a point, IMO. A shit games with great graphics is still a shit game at the end of the day. A great game with so-so graphics is still a great game. I don't think the Wii graphics are bad at all. It's the graphic whores who complain constantly about them not being as good as the 360 and PS3.

Nintendo was straight from the beginning and if all you care about are the graphics skip the Wii and move along.

In the end the developers will follow the console/consoles that sell well. Graphics are nice and all but if this time next year the Wii is still selling like crazy you will be seeing A LOT more games coming out for it. Hell even know you are starting to see more companies pushing to bring games out for it.[/QUOTE]

I hate when people don't really bother reading what I'm trying to say.

- When did I ever question why the Wii isn't an HD console? I questioned why ever game isn't in 480p (ED, not HD k?).

- My point was that a DIFFERENT kind of casual gamer is buying the Wii. Why is this important? See the news on Project HAMMER for reference. If it turns out the majority of people buying a Wii just want a quick game to pick up and play with friends, what kind of games do you think will arrive on the system? This is my concern about the Wii.

- "A shit games with great graphics is still a shit game at the end of the day. A great game with so-so graphics is still a great game. " I really hate statements like this. Here, watch me make one. A shit game with innovative wii controls is still a shit game. A great game with tired and standard controls is still a great game. See what I did thar?
 
I maintain that the biggest mistake Nintendo made with the Wii is not bundling the Classic controller in with the system. I know they want people to use the new controller, but as what pointed out above, the DS works so well because it has both options. And anything that isn't in the box from day 1 will only get marginal support.

One might argue that more people will have the CC than, say, the Bongos or a DDR mat or a microphone, because of the Virtual Console, but it's still going to be only a percentage of the total consoles sold, not 100%.
 
- People bash the lack of HD (well, in Wii's case lack of ED) and widescreen, because it is lazy on a developers part NOT to include it.
Click to expand...

Maybe, but since HD owners are in the MINORITY there should't be a rush to cater to them. In spite of that HD owners come on here and demand support as if they were the most important TV owners.

why is it so unbelievable that the majority of people buying the Wii are people who don't normally play games, and parents for their kids because it's a lot cheaper?
Click to expand...

Because it's not true and there is no evidence to prove it. I don't doubt that there are some people buying a Wii who never gamed before, but the idea that the vast majority of Wii sales is from unimportant, "non-gamers" who have never picked up a controller in their life is a fanboy fabrication. People like you just don't want to accept that the gamers who chose PS2 last gen are now choosing Wii. I'm one of them.

You have this agenda against graphics like they killed your family. Why did you even buy a system past the NES? I just don't get how someone can say graphics and story don't matter. Is game-play important? of course, but how about all THREE should matter. I want it all, graphics, story AND game-play.
Click to expand...

I have an agenda against graphics (I poudly admit) because the gaming industry, in case you haven't noticed, is incredibly biased towards graphics over everything else. Look how quick some devs are to dismiss the Wii simply because it doesn't have "I just exploded in my pants" visuals. There is a serious problem in the gaming industry that is stomping out creativity and freedom. Why would a dev try to make a fresh, new artistic game if people like you are going to shit all over it as soon as they see that it doesn't have the latest RTL and bump mapping??

I've never said that graphics aren't important. How can they not be if we are dealing with VIDEOgames? But they are not nearly as important as this new generation of graphics whoring, HD mongering gamers make it out to be - who are quick to bash a game based off a screenshot with a few jaggies or lack of widescreen.

The fact is that there are few high quality games anymore that have the total package (graphics and gameplay), and we can all count on one hand those quality developers that make those multi-million sellers. This is because the majority of games are average to mediocre garbage that is marketed with the latest cutting edge visuals in order to draw sales. It's easy to make a visually stunning game, but it's damn hard to make fun, compelling gameplay. Game companies know this and would rather save money by making pretty games with crap gameplay instead of invest the time, money and creativity to give us the total package. All of which leads to the heavy graphical bias the industry currently has.
 
At the end of the day, its really about money, and not about video games.

Why cant you have it all? Because its not cost effective. The majority of games LOSE money, and with development costs increasing exponentially, its an enormous risk for the people who fund these games - people who have more control over the creative process than they should.

Sure, there are quite a few companies that can afford that. Thats fine. There are also companies that don't mind throwing billions out the window providing the technology to make it happen. Thats fine as well.

I can understand how people like the high end stuff. Its practically a gift. Who doesnt like gifts? They literally paid to get it to your door. You just cant count on that staying the norm. At the end of the day, it has to make money.
 
Regarding your comment on what KINDS of games will appear on Wii, I say it depends on how much marketshare they can grab. Whoever has commanding marketshare will most likely have the most variety and number of games. Even if a lot of people are catering to a particular base, the pool is large enough that there is something for everyone.

To recap, this is why we are where we are today:

Exhibit 1: Profit in the industry (NeoGAF)
Code: 
FY*       Sony**        Nintendo        Microsoft
1998    974,000,000    629,000,000
1999   1,130,000,000   645,000,000
2000    730,000,000    421,000,000
2001    -409,000,000   726,000,000
2002    623,000,000    800,000,000     -750,000,000
2003    939,000,000    560,000,000     -1,191,000,000
2004    650,000,000    316,000,000     -1,215,000,000
2005    404,000,000    777,000,000     -485,000,000
2006    75,000,00      894,000,000     -1,262,000,000
2007   -1,969,000,000  1,489,000,000   -693,000,000
Totals  3,147,000,000  7,257,000,000    -5,596,000,000


* -- it's fiscal year for both Microsoft and Nintendo
** -- it's FY+1 for Sony for comparison reasons

Microsoft – Entertainment and Devices Division (Home and Entertainment) through 3rd Q FY 2007 ended March 31
Sony – Game division through 4th Q FY 2006 ended March 31
Nintendo – Overall through 4th Q FY 2007 ended March 31. Average exchange rate: 1 US $ = 117.02 yen

Exhibit 2 (from TheEscapist) - Sales have increased!
escapist2yt5.jpg


Exhibit 3 - Dev budgets have increased faster!
escapist1hq7.jpg


Exhibit 4: Wheres the money?
escapist3xu1.jpg
 
Those are some hard hitting graphs sir. You are a doctor of much more then Mario Kart.

[quote name='Scrubking']The Wii is not a fad. It will not fade away and the wiimote has already proven that it is just as good if not better than a pad. I see no valid points. All I see is Wii hate thinly veiled in regurgitated weak arguments. In Scotts case it was pure fanboy cheerleading.

It gets repeated over and over, but people just don't seem to get it. Graphics don't win console wars or make good games. Better graphics isn't innovative anymore. All you people creaming your pants over PS3 should realize that you are playing the same games you were playing 5 years ago with better visuals. If that's something to get excited about then this industry is fucking doomed.[/QUOTE]

Actually, graphics do play a major part in the console wars and they always have and still do. Despite what you might think, there are tons of valid criticisms of the Wiimote and what it's done. The accuracy isn't as good as we want it to be and there's really been no game that's been the defining experience on the Wii that's gotten the controls 100% right. Rayman was close, but there are still some issues (especially spinning the remote) where it doesn't work all that well. The speaker in the Wiimote crackles constantly. The remote syncs in and out on the menu too much. You need the Wiimote to access every game, even Gamecube games. There's a host of different problems beyond graphics with the Wii and particularly the Wiimote. It's not all berries and cream even though I'd love it to be that.

As far as innovative games, the most innovative game in the works for any console right now is Little Big Planet. There's lots of reasons to knock Sony right now, but as it stands they've developed multiple new/revived IPs and a good number of them have done more then just pretty graphics. Knock Sony on the price of the system and how graphics aren't key to winning the console war, but they've released or announced some pretty innovative and intriguing stuff.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']Maybe, but since HD owners are in the MINORITY there should't be a rush to cater to them. In spite of that HD owners come on here and demand support as if they were the most important TV owners.
[/QUOTE]

No HD support is fine. But no 480p (ED) or 16x9 option is just lazy as neither require extra hardware power etc. It's just simply a little bit of coding to put them in.

But really, its a non-issue as thus far all games worth playing (so just Zelda and SPM) have had both 480p and 16x9, and all the announced games I'm interested in do as well according to the Wikipedia page which has a listing of games and whether they support these modes.

I'm not a graphics whore at all, and have no problems with Wii games not looking any better than GC games thus far as last gen graphics were fine. But no 480p, and especially no widescreen, is deal breaker for me.
 
Hot damn! Another argument against the Wii with all the usual points being at contention!

I'd suggest the planets were aligned for such a thing, but then they'd have to be doing it every five goddamn minutes. Jupiter would keep bitching about how his girlfriend was angry he wasn't at home more often to talk about his feelings.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']Maybe, but since HD owners are in the MINORITY there should't be a rush to cater to them. In spite of that HD owners come on here and demand support as if they were the most important TV owners.[/QUOTE]

So since the HD owners are in the minority it makes it ok for developers to be lazy? :roll: :lol: I love the excuses.

Because it's not true and there is no evidence to prove it. I don't doubt that there are some people buying a Wii who never gamed before, but the idea that the vast majority of Wii sales is from unimportant, "non-gamers" who have never picked up a controller in their life is a fanboy fabrication. People like you just don't want to accept that the gamers who chose PS2 last gen are now choosing Wii. I'm one of them.
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Me assuming something that appears very likely (That whole Silent Hill issue anyone?) is a fanboy fabrication, but you stating the people who bought the PS2 last gen are now going for the Wii isn't? :rofl: Yes, so are you trying to say the people who bought a PS2 to play Madden and GTA are opting for the Wii right now?


I have an agenda against graphics (I poudly admit) because the gaming industry, in case you haven't noticed, is incredibly biased towards graphics over everything else. Look how quick some devs are to dismiss the Wii simply because it doesn't have "I just exploded in my pants" visuals. There is a serious problem in the gaming industry that is stomping out creativity and freedom. Why would a dev try to make a fresh, new artistic game if people like you are going to shit all over it as soon as they see that it doesn't have the latest RTL and bump mapping??

I've never said that graphics aren't important. How can they not be if we are dealing with VIDEOgames? But they are not nearly as important as this new generation of graphics whoring, HD mongering gamers make it out to be - who are quick to bash a game based off a screenshot with a few jaggies or lack of widescreen.

The fact is that there are few high quality games anymore that have the total package (graphics and gameplay), and we can all count on one hand those quality developers that make those multi-million sellers. This is because the majority of games are average to mediocre garbage that is marketed with the latest cutting edge visuals in order to draw sales. It's easy to make a visually stunning game, but it's damn hard to make fun, compelling gameplay. Game companies know this and would rather save money by making pretty games with crap gameplay instead of invest the time, money and creativity to give us the total package. All of which leads to the heavy graphical bias the industry currently has.
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Once again, it has been addressed that there are many fresh, innovative 360/PS3 games either out, or coming out.

Look, all I'm asking is that you not have such a bias, that's all. I realize it would be near impossible to not favor one company over another, but at-least try and remember there are good and bad points to all three systems.
 
Having a bias is perfectly fine, particularly if you don't deny that you have a bias. If your personal preferences lead to you not liking most facets of a system and its games, thats perfectly fine.

Do they have good points? Sure. But not for everyone.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']Having a bias is perfectly fine, particularly if you don't deny that you have a bias. If your personal preferences lead to you not liking most facets of a system and its games, thats perfectly fine.

Do they have good points? Sure. But not for everyone.[/QUOTE]

Ehh...too a point, yes. However, it would be one thing to say, "It doesn't bother me that Wii games aren't always in ED, because I don't care for HD. Though it is still lazy on the developers not to include it" rather then saying, "Who cares, you are in the minority! WAHHHH!"
 
[quote name='seanr1221']Ehh...too a point, yes. However, it would be one thing to say, "It doesn't bother me that Wii games aren't always in ED, because I don't care for HD. Though it is still lazy on the developers not to include it" rather then saying, "Who cares, you are in the minority! WAHHHH!"[/QUOTE]

Exactly. For instance, I'm not big into online gaming, but I'm not going to say
Nintendo is right to not put much focus on online gaming as online gamers are the minority."

I'm a life long Nintendo fan, and feel the Wii is a solid console, and I'll no doubt be playing the shit out of it by this fall when some good games finally start rolling out at a decent clip.

But I'm not a blind fanboy who can't see that it has clear flaws (in addition to advantages) compared to the competition.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
Nintendo is right to not put much focus on online gaming as online gamers are the minority.[/quote]
I don't see a single thing wrong with this statement.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I don't see a single thing wrong with this statement.[/QUOTE]

That's because you are fucking ridiculously anti-online gaming and one of the more annoying fanboys on this board.

I don't let my own biases blind me that much. Many people enjoy online gaming, and for them it sucks that Nintendo isn't putting much effort into it.

I wouldn't use it much (don't play the DS online much), but it would be nice if Nintendo put a bit more effort into it for those that love it.

And even though I'm not a big fan of online gaming, their are aspects I like. Stuff like co-op play with my buddies who live to far away to get together very often, some sports gaming with my brother etc.

There's no cons to having a well rounded system that does everything well. Unfortunately none of the three are doing that yet this generation.

Wii is lacking graphics, online gaming and good games in general as it's still early.

360 is a bit to expensive, has a high failure rate and is lacking in platformers and pick up and play party games.

PS3 is terribly overpriced for those that don't want a Bluray player, and is terribly lacking in good exclusives out or announced.
 
I'm going to completely ignore the crux of this thread, because I'm pretty sure I've read it in it's entirety ... oh, every week for the past six months. But I'm curious about this:

[quote name='furyk']As far as innovative games, the most innovative game in the works for any console right now is Little Big Planet.[/QUOTE]

I mean this completely sincerely: how so? It looks like it has potential, but I don't get what the big hubbub is about. It's a physics driven platformer with user-designed levels. I don't see anything that hasn't been done before, or even a particularly eye-opening combination of features. I dunno -- I just get more of a "Hey, that's a really worthwhile download from the Playstation Network" than "That's the most revolutionary full-priced game on the horizon for any console" vibe. I'd love something else to have nerd-lust for, though -- what am I missing?
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']But why is it wrong for Nintendo to cater to who they choose to, that is to say, running their business the way they want to?[/QUOTE]

Y hallo THAR n64 cartridges.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']But why is it wrong for Nintendo to cater to who they choose to, that is to say, running their business the way they want to?[/QUOTE]

They can run it however they want to. But that doesn't mean people aren't right to express disappointments that the Wii (or 360 or PS3) are missing features they wish it had.

I love Nintendo first party games, but I'm disappointed with the Wii hardware. I wish I could get their first party games, awesome graphics and a nice online system for when I feel like using it.

Nintendo has every right to design the Wii the way they did, but that doesn't mean that even a die hard Nintendo fan like me can't be disappointed by some of the decisions they made.

I was hoping for the Wii to be my only console this gen, but it just doesn't look like it's going to be possible, and I'm going to have to go the Wii60 route after a 360 price drop.
 
[quote name='trq']I mean this completely sincerely: how so? It looks like it has potential, but I don't get what the big hubbub is about. It's a physics driven platformer with user-designed levels. I don't see anything that hasn't been done before, or even a particularly eye-opening combination of features. I dunno -- I just get more of a "Hey, that's a really worthwhile download from the Playstation Network" than "That's the most revolutionary full-priced game on the horizon for any console" vibe. I'd love something else to have nerd-lust for, though -- what am I missing?[/QUOTE]

For me it's the first time I've seen a game that really captures the whole mod scene on PC on console in any form. As someone who doesn't play PC games at all besides the occasional adventure game, this has me incredibly excited. Furthermore I feel that unlike the majority of the PC mod community, there's a real concerted effort to encourage the user base to create a decent part of the game without it being crapped up by the openness of a persistence world a la Second Life. Furthermore, the distribution methods seem to ensure some consistency in getting quality levels before having to really wade through the crap.

I'm just super excited that we're getting a very PC minded game without any of the things I dislike about the PC platform. It's not amazingly original if you play PC stuff, but there's really nothing like it on the console front.
 
I don't want to burst your bubble, but this whole "user generated content" push that console companies like Sony are touting is nothing more than a way to sell gamers less game for more money. They are going to make a game where the majority of the content is user generated and STILL charge $60. That's hardly something to get excited about.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
I was hoping for the Wii to be my only console this gen, but it just doesn't look like it's going to be possible, and I'm going to have to go the Wii60 route after a 360 price drop.[/QUOTE]

While I could write a really long reply about this, teeming with examples detailing all parts of the issue, it really comes down to one concise point, which is simply that you wanting X and Y on the Wii and not getting them is less something Nintendo has to worry compared to what you are worrying about.

I.e., it's not entirely their fault you want, say, Dead Rising. They want you to want Super Paper Mario (doubly so, considering it's a first party game).

Again, I could make a much larger argument/reply about this, but please don't force me to. I'm merely pointing out the culminative singularity that this entire thing can reduce down to.

The notion that one system could sustain anyone who does a lot of gaming (I refuse to say "hardcore gamer" at this point, since that is one of the most misleading phrases applicable to this industry) is - and has been - folly for quite some time now.
 
[quote name='Scrubking']I don't want to burst your bubble, but this whole "user generated content" push that console companies like Sony are touting is nothing more than a way to sell gamers less game for more money. They are going to make a game where the majority of the content is user generated and STILL charge $60. That's hardly something to get excited about.[/QUOTE]

I don't know about you, but I'm more then okay paying money for a good game, even if it is all user created content and it's a big company profiting off of the hard work of the little man. Also, you've described the worst case scenario. As far as we've heard, Little Big Planet is having a fully workable demo being put out long before the actual game (which is how Sony is ripping us off in the first place with a shareware game that they're going to eventually ask you to pay for).
 
[quote name='Strell']
The notion that one system could sustain anyone who does a lot of gaming (I refuse to say "hardcore gamer" at this point, since that is one of the most misleading phrases applicable to this industry) is - and has been - folly for quite some time now.[/QUOTE]

To be fair, I don't do much gaming (5 hours a week, with occasionally it spiking to 10-15 if I have more time and get really sucked into a game) so it's not unreasonable for one system to keep me busy. I had all three last gen as I gamed a ton early on. But buy the end, for example, I couldn't even keep up with games on just the PS2, much less all three. And while the Wii is gathering Dust, there would be more than enough on the 360 to keep me occupied if I'd opted to buy it instead of the Wii last fall.

At any rate, I guess I could rephrase my comment to just say that I wish the Wii would give me more that I wanted that JUST nintendo first party games.

The Gamecube and N64 were pretty useless aside from first party games (with some excepetions like Rare's games, Eternal Darkness etc.). I was hoping the Wii would be better in this regard, but so far no dice.

But it's still early and if it keeps selling well hopefully it will get a more well-rounded library just like the DS did after it did unexpectedly well its first year.

But I'm not holding my breath, and plan on picking up a 360 right after the price drop, and possibly sell off the Wii if it's still just gathering dust in early 2008.
 
Well then it sounds completely like you don't even want the Wii, which makes me wonder why in the hell you chose it in the first place, given that you had a year's worth of games on the 360 that apparently already intrigued you, to say nothing of future releases.

In which case you are saying something totally different than what you said up there earlier.

The only other response I have is that if by 2008 you didn't have anything interesting you, then yes, you completely f*cked up in the first place. However, the converse to this is that by early 2008, we're going to see rumblings from third parties in much greater presence than we've seen thus far. That is to say, you might be getting third party games you really want, since a lot of them are trying to get on the wagon that left them in the dust while they cried about trivial things like "mom totally told me to clean up my room and I don't want to." We'll also see what the next string of first party titles will be, as well as have a good number of established titles already out (Smash Bros for example).

Finally, as I pointed out in another thread a while ago, it's been said numerous times that people only buy a Nintendo system for their first party titles. I find this especially intriguing with the Wii, since we've seen a handful of good third party games go somewhat unnoticed, which is a trend I think might continue even with strong games (No More Heroes and Zack and Wiki come to mind, in that I think they will be largely ignored).

Which is hugely hypocritical, don't you think? People whining about no third party games, but then they just don't buy them anyway, even if they are lots of fun.

And yes, I'm aware a good number of them are total rehashes, which is not what I'm pointing at directly here.
 
I think we're going to see a huge amount of support from third party developers for the Wii at this year's E3. We probably won't be able to play them until next year, but it'll at least be interesting to see what they have in store for us.
 
[quote name='Strell']Well then it sounds completely like you don't even want the Wii, which makes me wonder why in the hell you chose it in the first place, given that you had a year's worth of games on the 360 that apparently already intrigued you, to say nothing of future releases.
[/QUOTE]

Like I said, I've always been a huge Nintendo fan and it's the only console that's reasonably priced (and even it was $50 to much but I could stomach that since I paid for the Wii and Zelda entirely by trading and selling games/consoles).

But in hindsight, I wish I'd held off. Not because of the Wii, but I've just finally learned that its a complete waste of money to buy any console before the first price drop as they all have hideous game droughts the first year. It's a shame it took me the N64, Gamecube, DS and Wii to figure that out. :(

Most of my problems with the system right now aren't to do with the Wii, but just to do with the fact that consoles suck during the first year as the game libraries are so thin and full of ports and crappy quick cash in games.

At any rate, I do kind of wish I'd have put that money toward a 360 rather than a Wii, but oh well, now I'll hold on the Wii and just buy a 360 after a price drop.

The only other response I have is that if by 2008 you didn't have anything interesting you, then yes, you completely f*cked up in the first place.
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Indeed, and in that case I'll have no qualms about putting it on Craig's List or ebay. But time will tell. Again, the DS was a worthless piece of shit it's first year and has since became one of my all time most played game machines.

I find this especially intriguing with the Wii, since we've seen a handful of good third party games go somewhat unnoticed, which is a trend I think might continue even with strong games (No More Heroes and Zack and Wiki come to mind, in that I think they will be largely ignored).

Which is hugely hypocritical, don't you think? People whining about no third party games, but then they just don't buy them anyway, even if they are lots of fun.
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Personally, I disagree. I haven't found any third party games thus far that are worthy of a purchase at any price, much less $50. RE4 is great, but I just played through the Cube version this spring to knock some dust off my Wii, so that's a no go.

Sonic I didn't' care for, all the FPS ports have been terrible, Manhunt I'll skip as I can't stand uber violent games and hated the first one etc. etc.

Time will definitely tell on third party games. But I'm not expecting a whole lot to be honest. Third party publishers can make the most money by putting a game on all platforms, and the Wiis limited power will make it unlikely that games like Bioshock, Assassin's Creed etc. get ported over. Which kind of sucks, as at least with the Gamecube we got versions of the good third party games like Price of Persia, Beyond Good and Evil etc. that played and looked great.

But at the same time, if the Wii keeps selling well, 3rd parties will have an incentive to develop good games from the ground up just for the Wii.

So again, time will tell. Given the DS's track record, I have faith that the Wii will end up being a worthwhile system to own.

But like you said earlier, it probably won't be enough as a single console for most gamers.
 
[quote name='yukine']You know dmaul, you can always sell your Wii, it's still impossible to find for some people.[/QUOTE]

I was tempted. But I'm dying to play Metroid Prime 3, Mario Galaxy and (to a lesser extent) Smash Bros.

So I'll hold on to it at least through those games, and then reassess how many upcoming games I'm interested in at that point.

Additionally, there's no way I'd buy a 360 now when there's almost guaranteed to be a price drop by the holiday season.
 
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