Supreme Court rules against racial discrimination in suprisingly close vote

[quote name='thrustbucket']It's not even about less houses burning down, it's about HR policy. Why even have a test for a promotion? obviously they shouldn't. Just hand out promotions based on race and be done with it. Don't pretend skill, knowledge, or hard work have anything to do with promotions if they don't.[/QUOTE]
I think that statement is pretty racists, you are stereotyping white as people who cheat to get ahead based on the results of a test, even though the is no evidence of biases in the test.

They should try giving this test to minority firefighters that are known to be skilled and see if they score well or not.
 
Isn't institutional denial grand? It can't happen here! We're not racists! It must have been outsiders. Again.

Another possible HFD noose incident reported

Houston’s beleagured fire department suffered another blow today as a top department official confirmed that city investigators are probing a report that a firefighter possessed a rope tied in a noose-like knot at a northwest side firehouse.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/breaking/6527289.html

And the priceless (top ranked) comment on the story:

How many years of pranks and ribbings and horse play are now considered bad? I'd be willing to bet these guys have done similar practical jokes to each other for decades upon decades...all of sudden, there's an easily offended whiner looking for any excuse to explain why they aren't at the top yet...
I mean really, who gets upset when they wake up to find some dude masturbating while standing over them? People today are such pussies.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']But that doesn't mean it's a good thing and that doesn't mean we should sit by and do nothing while politicians work to move unqualified/lesser-qualified individuals to the front of the line.[/QUOTE]
It's just one of those things that's always going to happen. It's almost like a law of nature. You can try to limit it, but it's going to happen.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']It's just one of those things that's always going to happen. It's almost like a law of nature. You can try to limit it, but it's going to happen.[/QUOTE]

What, you think it's inevitable that politicians will move unqualified candidates to the front of the queue based on an irrelevant factor such as skin color? While there is an (ugly) precedent for it in history, I would argue it is not inevitable and furthermore it is not the way a rational and civilized society behaves.
 
Dude has learned to play the system when he doesn't get what he wants. It's landed him a job and now a promotion. Why not? It's there for the taking.

So should affirmative action be ended? Do you think blacks are in a position where the playing field is leveled? Unfortunately, I don't think it's level at all but many of you will come in here and argue until you're blue in the face that racism doesn't exist anymore even though nooses will hang and blacks will be the majority in the prison system.
 
It's not reverse racism if it's a program that was put into place to combat racism in the first place.

You guys seriously read what you're writing right? That program that was put into place is limiting my opportunities and therefore is reverse racist. Never mind that blacks (or any other minority of color) NEVER got any choice positions in our country's history before the 60's. Even then, it took until 2009 to see a black president and so far we've only seen two Supreme Court Justices.

I hate crappy anologies like this but that's like saying a restraining order limits the abusers rights. See how I did that? Man beats his wife every day and she finally gets enough courage to leave him (or organize protests as it pertains to civil rights). She even files a restraining order and he either kills her or bitches that his rights are now limited.

White people = the man

Black people = the woman

Just in case you guys couldn't connect the dots.

You guys all seem to forget that we wouldn't even have affirmative action if you guys didn't enslave us and then foist Jim Crow on us even when we did get free. Looks like you brought this upon yourselves. Maybe you should stop blaming blacks and go back and cuss out your grandfathers and their grandfathers. Before any of you say that it wasn't that generation, I'm pretty sure that our grandfathers lived in the 60s and there's a strong possibility that some of them turned hoses, dogs, or batons onto protesting/rioting blacks somewhere in America.
 
I'm sorry - I fail to see how something that promotes a lesser qualified individual over a more qualified individual based solely on the race of the individuals is not racist.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I'm sorry - I fail to see how something that promotes a lesser qualified individual over a more qualified individual based solely on the race of the individuals is not racist.[/QUOTE]

You must be new in this forum, otherwise you would know that because of hegemony what you said is only racist if it's the dominant race getting promoted.
 
This country did that for two centuries and now it's a problem? Again, let affirmative action do something for another decade or two and then we'll talk seriously about letting it die. By then, everyone in America should be on somewhat equal footing.

I'm tired of the argument that since you personally never discriminated against blacks that blacks are on equal footing with whites these days. That a few decades of affirmative action can completely erase the horror of several centuries of slavery.

We're very close now but many top positions are still closed off to minorities because of the so-called less qualified angle. You guys act like one standardized test is the end all be all of intelligence. Should your intelligence and ability be judged solely on your SAT scores? Maybe businesses should just look at resumes straight up and never interview candidates. Maybe a less qualified but more charismatic easy going guy might get the job. Oh, the horror.
 
depascal22, you are fully missing the point.

What we have here is a case of an organization rewriting it's own rules in hindsight. It stated to ALL it's employees, openly and all along, what the requirements for promotions were. When those requirements were met by some of it's employees, it decided to ignore and override it's own rules. To any clear thinking person, that's unethical.

If your job told you to to do X, Y, and Z and you'd be promoted, and then you did X, Y, and Z only to have them say "sorry, we need to promote someone else because of racial issues", you wouldn't be pissed?

Actually it's come out, that what this really all boiled down to was the city was afraid of one Rev Boise Kimber, a powerful racially charged local leader that has New Haven city leaders by the short and curleys.
 
First of all, no one got promoted. Not even the blacks.

Second, why is one exam the only way to promote people? Would you want to be promoted based on one test? Should one paper test determine if one person is better able to lead while a four alarm is raging? Some people suck at tests but excel in the field. Shouldn't those people have a shot?

You don't think it's odd that every black man failed the test? Maybe this whole test fiasco uncovered the deeper problem in our society. Black people don't get equal educations even 40 years after the Civil Rights movement. You can't tell me inner city public schools are on par with even average suburban schools.
 
Right. This is about keeping whitey down, folks.

It has nothing to do with contradictions in Title VII of the Civil Rights Act.

Move along, legal scholars. This is a discussion about race from those who think we need to move past race as a society.

Love it.

;)
 
Look, it's not about "blacks" or "whitey" or any individual group of people.

Any rule that says one should take race into the equation when determining who should get a position, a raise, a promotion, etc. is racist.
I'm sorry there were black slaves.
I'm sorry Native Americans were almost pushed into extinction.
I'm sorry life isn't fair.

But none of that makes it okay for our government* to say "Yeah, you're a minority, so here's bonus points."

For *anyone* to say that they just want racism to end, then to turn around and claim that one race should get special treatment is just asinine.

(*Yes, I said government. Private businesses *should* be able to hire and promote whomever they want based on whatever criteria they determine.)
 
[quote name='depascal22']First of all, no one got promoted. Not even the blacks.

Second, why is one exam the only way to promote people? Would you want to be promoted based on one test? Should one paper test determine if one person is better able to lead while a four alarm is raging? Some people suck at tests but excel in the field. Shouldn't those people have a shot?

You don't think it's odd that every black man failed the test? Maybe this whole test fiasco uncovered the deeper problem in our society. Black people don't get equal educations even 40 years after the Civil Rights movement. You can't tell me inner city public schools are on par with even average suburban schools.[/QUOTE]

Basically the seminal case for disparate impact was Griggs vs. Duke Power which got in trouble for using cognitive tests etc. that weren't technically needed.

An argument can be made on how a test like this can be make or break important, but meanwhile the firefighter being pushed to the front of the debate had to sue his way in because of his dyslexia. Dyslexia has more than a few symptoms that could be downright dangerous for a firefighter more than I can think of from doing middling on a cognitive test.
 
[quote name='depascal22']We're very close now but many top positions are still closed off to minorities because of the so-called less qualified angle.[/QUOTE]

OK, I'll bite. Please name one top position that is closed off to minorities.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Look, it's not about "blacks" or "whitey" or any individual group of people.

Any rule that says one should take race into the equation when determining who should get a position, a raise, a promotion, etc. is racist.
I'm sorry there were black slaves.
I'm sorry Native Americans were almost pushed into extinction.
I'm sorry life isn't fair.

But none of that makes it okay for our government* to say "Yeah, you're a minority, so here's bonus points."

For *anyone* to say that they just want racism to end, then to turn around and claim that one race should get special treatment is just asinine.

(*Yes, I said government. Private businesses *should* be able to hire and promote whomever they want based on whatever criteria they determine.)[/QUOTE]

Right. Again, none of this happens to have anything to do with the Supreme Court's ruling.

The relationship is purely spurious.

You're displaying a willful ignorance of the significance of this ruling if you interpret it this way.

Go read the documents and then have an opinion.
 
[quote name='camoor']OK, I'll bite. Please name one top position that is closed off to minorities.[/QUOTE]

Head football coach at a D-I school.

The majority of players are black but so far we have five (and maybe less than that since Karl Dorrell got canned two years ago at UCLA) coaches for 112 schools. Classic example of the mule being good enough to haul but not lead.
 
[quote name='camoor']OK, I'll bite. Please name one top position that is closed off to minorities.[/QUOTE]

As Sonia Sotomayor expresses regret and lament for her "wise latina" remark, many in the public assume that this kind of recognition of the uniqueness of her ethnic background makes her problematic for a position in the Supreme Court. It is a major hurdle she has had to overcome this week during her confirmation hearings.

Samuel Alito mentioned the pride and uniqueness of being brought up Italian in an Italian family during his confirmation hearings - this was not controversial, not debated, not something that fueled the fire of people in the public sphere. It was something he said that was glossed over and not considered as having any significance.

So two things here:
1) The public treatment that only people in minority groups have "problems" with their heritage; the double standard that they must prove themselves worthy for a position *despite* their ethnic background, while whites do not have such treatment. Their ethnicity is viewed as (both, strangely enough) nonexistent and wholly appropriate for the SCOTUS.
2) That statements about one's heritage are irrelevant and/or fine when mentioned by whites, but a problem that must be overcome by minority candidates. Alito was helped by the fact that he was white; Sotomayor's fit for office is questioned by aspects of her ethnicity: we assume her "empathy" is a problem because she's a minority (which means we're scared she won't enforce the racial hierarchy), and that her ethnicity is a problem for her fit because she acknowledges what it is.

Will she be confirmed? You bet. That doesn't negate the fact that she experienced unique, race-based barriers to confirmation that whites do not experience, even if they behave in the same way.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Head football coach at a D-I school.

The majority of players are black but so far we have five (and maybe less than that since Karl Dorrell got canned two years ago at UCLA) coaches for 112 schools. Classic example of the mule being good enough to haul but not lead.[/QUOTE]

That's the best example you can think of? I don't know hardly anything about college football and this seems pretty damning on the face of it, but if the worst we have to face right now is contained within a niche position like college football coach I'm not really seeing the logic in your case for the need for across-the-board institutionalized quota hiring. I was interested to see if you could come up with something substantial such as top government positions, top corporate positions, membership to power-broker clubs - important positions like that. The 2008 election really took a bite out of these types of arguements.

[quote name='mykevermin']As Sonia Sotomayor expresses regret and lament for her "wise latina" remark, many in the public assume that this kind of recognition of the uniqueness of her ethnic background makes her problematic for a position in the Supreme Court. It is a major hurdle she has had to overcome this week during her confirmation hearings.

Samuel Alito mentioned the pride and uniqueness of being brought up Italian in an Italian family during his confirmation hearings - this was not controversial, not debated, not something that fueled the fire of people in the public sphere. It was something he said that was glossed over and not considered as having any significance.

So two things here:
1) The public treatment that only people in minority groups have "problems" with their heritage; the double standard that they must prove themselves worthy for a position *despite* their ethnic background, while whites do not have such treatment. Their ethnicity is viewed as (both, strangely enough) nonexistent and wholly appropriate for the SCOTUS.
2) That statements about one's heritage are irrelevant and/or fine when mentioned by whites, but a problem that must be overcome by minority candidates. Alito was helped by the fact that he was white; Sotomayor's fit for office is questioned by aspects of her ethnicity: we assume her "empathy" is a problem because she's a minority (which means we're scared she won't enforce the racial hierarchy), and that her ethnicity is a problem for her fit because she acknowledges what it is.

Will she be confirmed? You bet. That doesn't negate the fact that she experienced unique, race-based barriers to confirmation that whites do not experience, even if they behave in the same way.
[/QUOTE]

I would agree that Sotomayor's comments ultimately probably amount to much ado about nothing as the quote was apparently taken out of context. Furthermore I am not a fan of the treatment and veiled comments being hurled at her from Republicans, it's good to see they have been forced to tone it down after realizing the public won't stand for it. But fair is fair - I'm no fan of Alito but he would probably never have been confirmed if he had said that a wise Italian-American with the richness of his experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a person with a different background who hasn't lived that life and those life experiences. It's one thing to be prideful, it's another to hold up your racial identity as something that makes you superior to others.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']As Sonia Sotomayor expresses regret and lament for her "wise latina" remark, many in the public assume that this kind of recognition of the uniqueness of her ethnic background makes her problematic for a position in the Supreme Court. It is a major hurdle she has had to overcome this week during her confirmation hearings.

Samuel Alito mentioned the pride and uniqueness of being brought up Italian in an Italian family during his confirmation hearings - this was not controversial, not debated, not something that fueled the fire of people in the public sphere. It was something he said that was glossed over and not considered as having any significance.

So two things here:
1) The public treatment that only people in minority groups have "problems" with their heritage; the double standard that they must prove themselves worthy for a position *despite* their ethnic background, while whites do not have such treatment. Their ethnicity is viewed as (both, strangely enough) nonexistent and wholly appropriate for the SCOTUS.
2) That statements about one's heritage are irrelevant and/or fine when mentioned by whites, but a problem that must be overcome by minority candidates. Alito was helped by the fact that he was white; Sotomayor's fit for office is questioned by aspects of her ethnicity: we assume her "empathy" is a problem because she's a minority (which means we're scared she won't enforce the racial hierarchy), and that her ethnicity is a problem for her fit because she acknowledges what it is.

Will she be confirmed? You bet. That doesn't negate the fact that she experienced unique, race-based barriers to confirmation that whites do not experience, even if they behave in the same way.[/QUOTE]

I'm not used to seeing something this disingenuous from you, myke. You know as well as I do that the "wise Latina" controversy had nothing to do with being proud of her heritage, but rather the other part of the quote, which included words to the effect that because of being Latina she is a better judge than a white male. Quite rightly, many have noted that if, say, Alito had said the same thing, his nomination would have been withdrawn immediately.
 
The wise latina thing was her saying she had the experience of being a minority where as a white male has not.

I highly doubt the reason black people were failing this test is because they just plain weren't smart enough. Every black person wasn't smart enough for the test? There are no smart black people? C'mon.

I'd like to see this test. I don't think anyone who hasn't seen the test can argue against Sotomayer's ruling.
 
[quote name='camoor']That's the best example you can think of? I don't know hardly anything about college football and this seems pretty damning on the face of it, but if the worst we have to face right now is contained within a niche position like college football coach I'm not really seeing the logic in your case for the need for across-the-board institutionalized quota hiring. I was interested to see if you could come up with something substantial such as top government positions, top corporate positions, membership to power-broker clubs - important positions like that. The 2008 election really took a bite out of these types of arguements.[/QUOTE]

Here's the difference. College football coaches are hired by athletic directors with approval of the boosters and other high level university officials. There are interviews but decisions are made behind closed doors with little regard to the best qualified. They basically look for who appeases the boosters the most. Predominantly, a white face is easier to foist on the rich white males that contribute the most to the university's coffers.

Presidential elections are done in the open by the people. Racial bias still plays a factor but not nearly as much because the electorate is so diverse.

How about this? Supreme Court Justice. So far, we've seen two black people in the entire history of the court. You're telling me there's never been another qualified black person in the history of America?

How about Senator? Since 1940, we've only had four black senators and three have been from Illinois. Brooke, Mosely-Braun, Obama, and Burris. That's it.
 
[quote name='elprincipe']I'm not used to seeing something this disingenuous from you, myke. You know as well as I do that the "wise Latina" controversy had nothing to do with being proud of her heritage, but rather the other part of the quote, which included words to the effect that because of being Latina she is a better judge than a white male. Quite rightly, many have noted that if, say, Alito had said the same thing, his nomination would have been withdrawn immediately.[/QUOTE]

It is the strength of the unconscious white privilege in American society that Sotomayor has one of her rulings overturned by the supreme court, and the discussion becomes not one of inherent contradiction of the law (as turns out to be the Supreme Court's decision - but don't let that get in the way of continuing to incorrectly think it's about your beloved "reverse racism"), but of wariness of her jurisprudence. That we cannot trust a minority who ruled in favor of minorities when that ruling is overturned by the Supreme Court. This is a problem, because, we reason, it means that the minority judge only made the ruling on the basis of solidarity and empathy as a member of a minority group, and not on the facts of the case, or of the interpretation of a later-to-be-decided-as-inherently-contradictory law as, well, inherently contradictory.

She's siding with minorities, which permits us to be skeptical of her motivations, and question whether she is an arbiter of justice under the law, or liberalism that sees nothing but oppressive whiteness.

We can't, and you don't, consider her on par with other supreme court justices, because of her ethnicity, and because you can't allow her ethnicity to operate separate from her rulings. Though you do this very same thing for the other justices. It is circumstance that Alito is white and Italian, and that this very case that he ruled in favor of...a man by the name of Frank Ricci?

That's your white privilege. Alito can rule how he pleases and you do not consider it to have any racial bias, motivation, empathy, or hint whatsoever. Sotomayor is considered, on the other hand, to be antithetical to the rule of law when she rules in favor of interpreting a law to support a minority group - DESPITE plenty of case examples where she did not rule in such a manner, because she is a minority and they a minority.

This is your racism. You're surely appalled, and think I'm full of it. But you know for a fact inside yourself that you never considered Alito's ethnicity relevant to his rulings, never saw that an Italian man ruling in favor of an Italian man to suggest corroboration or bias, and never considered the following statement to have any relevance, bias, or racial support to it:

"But when I look at those cases, I have to say to myself, and I do say to myself, "You know, this could be your grandfather, this could be your grandmother. They were not citizens at one time, and they were people who came to this country" . . . .

When I get a case about discrimination, I have to think about people in my own family who suffered discrimination because of their ethnic background or because of religion or because of gender. And I do take that into account."

Can you IMAGINE if this is something Sotomayor said during her confirmation hearing? Can you IMAGINE how outraged, and appalled, and sickened you would be were she confirmed?

This came from Samuel Alito's remarks during his own confirmation hearing.

This is the power of racism of society. Now I'll allow you to call me names and deny all of this, and rationalize away why it's ok to examine Sotomayor in terms of her ethnicity, but not Alito. That will demonstrate the strength of the other half of racism in modern American society.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']It is the strength of the unconscious white privilege in American society that Sotomayor has one of her rulings overturned by the supreme court, and the discussion becomes not one of inherent contradiction of the law (as turns out to be the Supreme Court's decision - but don't let that get in the way of continuing to incorrectly think it's about your beloved "reverse racism"), but of wariness of her jurisprudence. That we cannot trust a minority who ruled in favor of minorities when that ruling is overturned by the Supreme Court. This is a problem, because, we reason, it means that the minority judge only made the ruling on the basis of solidarity and empathy as a member of a minority group, and not on the facts of the case, or of the interpretation of a later-to-be-decided-as-inherently-contradictory law as, well, inherently contradictory.

She's siding with minorities, which permits us to be skeptical of her motivations, and question whether she is an arbiter of justice under the law, or liberalism that sees nothing but oppressive whiteness.

We can't, and you don't, consider her on par with other supreme court justices, because of her ethnicity, and because you can't allow her ethnicity to operate separate from her rulings. Though you do this very same thing for the other justices. It is circumstance that Alito is white and Italian, and that this very case that he ruled in favor of...a man by the name of Frank Ricci?

That's your white privilege. Alito can rule how he pleases and you do not consider it to have any racial bias, motivation, empathy, or hint whatsoever. Sotomayor is considered, on the other hand, to be antithetical to the rule of law when she rules in favor of interpreting a law to support a minority group - DESPITE plenty of case examples where she did not rule in such a manner, because she is a minority and they a minority.

This is your racism. You're surely appalled, and think I'm full of it. But you know for a fact inside yourself that you never considered Alito's ethnicity relevant to his rulings, never saw that an Italian man ruling in favor of an Italian man to suggest corroboration or bias, and never considered the following statement to have any relevance, bias, or racial support to it:

"But when I look at those cases, I have to say to myself, and I do say to myself, "You know, this could be your grandfather, this could be your grandmother. They were not citizens at one time, and they were people who came to this country" . . . .

When I get a case about discrimination, I have to think about people in my own family who suffered discrimination because of their ethnic background or because of religion or because of gender. And I do take that into account."

Can you IMAGINE if this is something Sotomayor said during her confirmation hearing? Can you IMAGINE how outraged, and appalled, and sickened you would be were she confirmed?

This came from Samuel Alito's remarks during his own confirmation hearing.

This is the power of racism of society. Now I'll allow you to call me names and deny all of this, and rationalize away why it's ok to examine Sotomayor in terms of her ethnicity, but not Alito. That will demonstrate the strength of the other half of racism in modern American society.[/QUOTE]

That is quite a screed, yet you failed to answer what I posted at all. I didn't question whether Sotomayor ruled one way or another due to her ethnicity. That is not my contention. I haven't seen any evidence to that effect and have not made that claim. The simple fact that one of the firefighters she ruled against happened to be Hispanic is probably enough to shut people up who say that.

But again I'll refer back to my question. The real controversy is that she claimed that she was a "better" judge than a white male due to her heritage. Do you believe that a Latina judge is an inherently better judge than a white male judge? Surely you aren't claiming that Alito said he was a better judge than a female Hispanic judge due to him being a white male, since he did not do that (at least as far as I am aware...feel free to enlighten me).

Can you answer my question this time, regardless of your other feelings? I know they are deeply held beliefs, but they have little to do with my point of contention.
 
1) /Thread. Myke just put an end to all the foolishness. Anyone who tries to argue against that post should just give it up because he is 110% spot on.

2)elprincipe, It is clear you haven't even heard/read the entire speech Sotomayor delivered and I'm not even sure you know the correct quote you are referring to. Considering how completely off you are about what she said.

“I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion [as a judge] than a white male who hasn’t lived that life.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/15/us/politics/15judge.text.html?_r=1
There is the whole speech. It should be read by those who want to have an opinion.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Here's the difference. College football coaches are hired by athletic directors with approval of the boosters and other high level university officials. There are interviews but decisions are made behind closed doors with little regard to the best qualified. They basically look for who appeases the boosters the most. Predominantly, a white face is easier to foist on the rich white males that contribute the most to the university's coffers.[/QUOTE]

OK enough on the college football coach already. Like I said, I was hoping for more substance, all you can come up with so far is a specialized part of the entertainment field, which we all know is superficial.

[quote name='depascal22']Presidential elections are done in the open by the people. Racial bias still plays a factor but not nearly as much because the electorate is so diverse.

How about this? Supreme Court Justice. So far, we've seen two black people in the entire history of the court. You're telling me there's never been another qualified black person in the history of America?

How about Senator? Since 1940, we've only had four black senators and three have been from Illinois. Brooke, Mosely-Braun, Obama, and Burris. That's it.[/QUOTE]

America is 13% black. The supreme court is 8% black, that's not too far off. Besides the number will always be off - if there were two black SCJs then the percentage would be 16%, which is higher then the current demographics (to illustrate how silly this game gets). Ideally people pick senators through open elections, in your world should we also throw those voting results out when there aren't enough members from this racial group or that racial group?

America is a country that had people fighting for basic civil rights less then 50 years ago. And today we have a black president. Show me another country that did a turnaround as fast as America without a violent revolution.
 
[quote name='HowStern']2)elprincipe, It is clear you haven't even heard/read the entire speech Sotomayor delivered and I'm not even sure you know the correct quote you are referring to. Considering how completely off you are about what she said.

“I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion [as a judge] than a white male who hasn’t lived that life.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/15/us/politics/15judge.text.html?_r=1
There is the whole speech. It should be read by those who want to have an opinion.[/QUOTE]

Thanks for the exact quote, and yes, I do know about the full thing. She says that a Latina "would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male." Ergo, she is saying that a "wise Latina" is a better judge than a white male by virtue of being a Latina. That is the issue, and my issue, with her. My complaint is not "completely off," unless you have some reasonable explanation as to why that is. Tell me, do you believe that a Latina judge is better than a white male judge? Why or why not? If not, why don't you have an issue with what she said? After all, she basically said it was a mistake in the hearings...even though she had used it six or seven times over the years.
 
[quote name='depascal22']First of all, no one got promoted. Not even the blacks.

Second, why is one exam the only way to promote people? Would you want to be promoted based on one test? Should one paper test determine if one person is better able to lead while a four alarm is raging? Some people suck at tests but excel in the field. Shouldn't those people have a shot?
[/QUOTE]

Wah. A job is a job, and they are allowed to have the requirements they want.

Taking what you are saying at face value, if an employer had it's promotion contingent on a certain level of education, it could be argued that is discriminitory - not everyone can afford school, right? Such a requirement would clearly only favor rich white people, right?

I have some sad news for you - many jobs, if not most jobs, don't care about your actual job performance or abilities when it comes to being hired or promoted. They make employees play all kinds of games to get promoted, and that's just life. Now if you want to argue against that, I'm with you, but let's not turn it into yet another shaky race argument.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']This is your racism. You're surely appalled, and think I'm full of it. But you know for a fact inside yourself that you never considered Alito's ethnicity relevant to his rulings, never saw that an Italian man ruling in favor of an Italian man to suggest corroboration or bias, and never considered the following statement to have any relevance, bias, or racial support to it:

"But when I look at those cases, I have to say to myself, and I do say to myself, "You know, this could be your grandfather, this could be your grandmother. They were not citizens at one time, and they were people who came to this country" . . . .

When I get a case about discrimination, I have to think about people in my own family who suffered discrimination because of their ethnic background or because of religion or because of gender. And I do take that into account."

Can you IMAGINE if this is something Sotomayor said during her confirmation hearing? Can you IMAGINE how outraged, and appalled, and sickened you would be were she confirmed?

This came from Samuel Alito's remarks during his own confirmation hearing.

This is the power of racism of society. Now I'll allow you to call me names and deny all of this, and rationalize away why it's ok to examine Sotomayor in terms of her ethnicity, but not Alito. That will demonstrate the strength of the other half of racism in modern American society.[/QUOTE]

Noone would bat an eye if Sotomayor said this, just as it wasn't a big deal that Alito said this. Now, if Alito had said something along the lines of his experiences as an Italian-American male inherently make him a better judge then someone of a different race or gender, then I could start to see some logic to your post. But you fail to meet that burden of proof, and I find your conjecture to be without merit.
 
[quote name='camoor']Noone would bat an eye if Sotomayor said this, just as it wasn't a big deal that Alito said this. Now, if Alito had said something along the lines of his experiences as an Italian-American male inherently make him a better judge then someone of a different race or gender, then I could start to see some logic to your post. But you fail to meet that burden of proof, and I find your conjecture to be without merit.[/QUOTE]

What? Is this fuckin' lazy day on the internet?

[quote name='HowStern']http://www.nytimes.com/2009/05/15/us/politics/15judge.text.html?_r=1
There is the whole speech. It should be read by those who want to have an opinion.[/QUOTE]

Read it before you repeat, for the umpeenth time, an incorrect assessment of Sotomayor's quote.
 
[quote name='camoor']Show me another country that did a turnaround as fast as America without a violent revolution.[/QUOTE]

South Africa.

And you completely disregard the low number of senators? You honestly want to say that there aren't any qualified black people in America that want to be a senator? Anyone can run as a Democrat or Republican for a Senate seat? Oh, that's right. The parties tightly control who runs and who doesn't. The Dems can throw Obama out there as a bone to the black community but that doesn't mean we'll get someone else in the Senate anytime soon.

And thrust, your bullshit response to my post doesn't even warrant a counter.
 
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[quote name='depascal22']South Africa.

And you completely disregard the low number of senators? You honestly want to say that there aren't any qualified black people in America that want to be a senator? Anyone can run as a Democrat or Republican for a Senate seat? Oh, that's right. The parties tightly control who runs and who doesn't. The Dems can throw Obama out there as a bone to the black community but that doesn't mean we'll get someone else in the Senate anytime soon.

And thrust, your bullshit response to my post doesn't even warrant a counter.[/QUOTE]

Wow. You're welcome to debate the merits of Obama's presidency all you like, but it's ridiculous and insulting to reduce his Presidential campaign victory as a bone that was thrown to 18% of Americans. I'd say it had more to do with Obama's mastery of the campaign trail, ability to inspire, and politics then the color of his skin.

South Africa has a tragic past and I wish them the best, but I hardly think you can hold them up as a success story when corruption is rampant, white people earn more then four times what black people earn, a quarter of the people are unemployed, and people generally subsist on less then $1.25 a day. We may all whine about the US from time to time but it's no South Africa.

As for the Senators, you don't have to convince me, you have to convince the American public. It's a representative democracy and the people are not forced at gunpoint to vote for candidate A or candidate B.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']What? Is this fuckin' lazy day on the internet?



Read it before you repeat, for the umpeenth time, an incorrect assessment of Sotomayor's quote.[/QUOTE]

I already stated it was taken out of context.

Welcome to politics Myke. Sorry that judges running for Supreme Court have to choose their words carefully, but if you want to just spout off at the mouth then get another job (or become Senator of Delaware)

If Alito had said the same thing it would have been taken out of context and he wouldn't have a get-out-of-jail-free card to play. Try the thought experiment, switch Sotomayor's quote around with the roles reversed, and then come back if you can honestly not see what I'm saying here.
 
[quote name='depascal22']

And thrust, your bullshit response to my post doesn't even warrant a counter.[/QUOTE]

Strangely enough, I felt like making a similar response to your previous post.

I guess that means my job bores me a lot more than yours does you.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Dude, you have access to the entire context and you choose to ignore it.

You're better than that.[/QUOTE]

Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging. Justice O'Connor has often been cited as saying that a wise old man and wise old woman will reach the same conclusion in deciding cases. I am not so sure Justice O'Connor is the author of that line since Professor Resnik attributes that line to Supreme Court Justice Coyle. I am also not so sure that I agree with the statement. First, as Professor Martha Minnow has noted, there can never be a universal definition of wise. Second, I would hope that a wise Latina woman with the richness of her experiences would more often than not reach a better conclusion than a white male who hasn't lived that life.

What did I ignore? The context is even more damning, quite frankly, unless you have a charitable reading of the phrase "physiological differences."
 
So, she says "Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging."
How is that damning? Because she states it's a possibility that physiological differences can possibly make a difference when judging a case?

She is putting forth reason why the courts should have a varied racial line up. Not just all white men. To get a meld of minds from different backgrounds.

So, it seems you are the racist for thinking this is a bad thing.
 
[quote name='HowStern']So, she says "Whether born from experience or inherent physiological or cultural differences, a possibility I abhor less or discount less than my colleague Judge Cedarbaum, our gender and national origins may and will make a difference in our judging."
How is that damning? Because she states it's a possibility that physiological differences can possibly make a difference when judging a case?

She is putting forth reason why the courts should have a varied racial line up. Not just all white men. To get a meld of minds from different backgrounds.

So, it seems you are the racist for thinking this is a bad thing.[/QUOTE]

Nice ad hominem. Right, I'm the racist for being against racist statements like Latinas are better judges than white men. Wow, you really found me out. :roll: Or maybe I'm racist because you are accusing me of something I never said, such as something as idiotic as being against courts having anyone who is not a white male for judges. Or maybe you're just being an ass.

Here, take a look at this: http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/physiological
 
I take it elprincipe doesn't see the racial collusion in Alito helping decide in favor of Ricci.

There ain't no such thing as white privilege.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I take it elprincipe doesn't see the racial collusion in Alito helping decide in favor of Ricci.

There ain't no such thing as white privilege.[/QUOTE]

I don't see any racial collusion in the records of Alito or Sotomayor. I never claimed that as an issue, even though you won't accept what I say. I don't get why you won't just accept that and answer my question.
 
Because your question is based on taking an ostentatious offense to something we all know is true.

It is a complete given that someone who has grown up at a disadvantage and as a minority will have experiences that will help them judge a situation, "more often than not", better than someone who has grown up with nothing but privilege(see: white male.)

Everything else you said is a strawman. You've completely skewed everything the woman said.
 
Speaking of strawman, I like this idea that white males grow up with "nothing but privilege"... If there was ever an ignorant statement on the internet...
 
[quote name='mykevermin']What I can see is that you're saying "I know what the quote means," and also "I want to play the game as if I don't know better, and continue to argue like a numbskull who would willfully misinterpret a quote out of context."

So you know better, but you don't act better.[/QUOTE]

No, I'm saying there is a vicious double-standard. Some people need to watch each and every thing they say and self-censor it for fear it could be taken out of context. Other people have a get-out-of-jail free card when they make comments that, on the face of them, seem to advocate superiority based on thier race or gender.

Now, it's probably a good thing to watch what you say and ensure what you say reflects your true intent. I'm just saying we should hold every person up to the same standard. Personally I think we should let every person explain their intent and place it in context, but that ain't gonna happen in our land of hysterical split-personality hypocrisy.

[quote name='UncleBob']Speaking of strawman, I like this idea that white males grow up with "nothing but privilege"... If there was ever an ignorant statement on the internet...[/QUOTE]

Ironic when someone sees a Chapelle show skit and mistakes it for a documentary.
 
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