The 2008 MLB Season Thread (Update: Phillies Won)

[dracula]

[quote name='ryanbph']hideki matsui when he was extended by the yanks a couple of years back was grossly overpaid for the type of player that he is. He doesn't have great range in the OF, and he is what I would hope for in the least for a contending teams OF player. [/quote]

he is also the most popular japanese position player of all time. Are you saying all of you BS arguements about matsuzaka bringing in money to the red sox dont apply to matsui? Frankly it is a bullshit idea either way, and at least matsui produces.

Don't give me that bs that matsui always produces...he is a low .290 hitter with about 20 dingers in him on avg.

since coming to MLB matsui is .294 AVG/.854 OPS and he has done that every single year consistently. He is a lock for that again this year, so yeah, that is actually a pretty safe contract. Actually that is the only contract in your entire post that is NOT a bad contract.

compared to the stupid money that the sox threw at matsuzaka and the stupid money that the giants threw at zito, that is a very good contract. When people say it is OK for matsuzaka and zito to have a couple of bad years like they did last year is preposterous. Ludicrous. Ditto for giambi. Those are all idiotic contracts.

Brian Giles got $10 mill a year that offseason...puts up similiar numbers as he does career wise.

.293 avg/ .923 OPs. and then injuries have just about killed his career, so that turned out to be a bad contract. For many years, giles was the best player that people never knew about. from 1996 to 2005 he was one of the best players in the league. If he was playing in new york or los angeles he would have been in the MVP running every year.

but the past 3 years injuries have slowed him some. Whereas matsui has been(relatively) healthy the entire time he was in mLB. I have no love for the yankees, but so far that is the only contract that has worked out of the ones you mentioned.

You talk like matsuzaka can have some bad years, then if he has a good year or 2, then the 103 million contract is somehow justified. In order for the zito and matsuzaka and giambi contracts to be justified, they MUST perform like allstars EVERY year.

Jd drew has been in the league 9 years, and had 5 healthy years, it is tough to justify his long term deal, if he is healthy EVERY year then that is the only way the 5 year 70 million is justified.

 

[ryanbph]

I agreed with most of the people you got going in the hof, and the ones I didn't wasn't worth arguing about...but manny's and cabera's numbers are very similiar...manny played as many games at 22 that caberra did at 20....both are ? marks defensively...manny's homer rate is close to 1 every 14.5 compared to caberra 1 every 20...manny's career batting avg is a point higher but he has been doing it for about 10 year longer then miguel. You can't have it both ways....They both were stars at a young age. They both are incredible offensive talents. Thome & Thomas both deserve looks at getting into the hall, if they do or not isn't for me to decide. Thome has a lower career BA in the low to mid .280's but his homer ratio is better then manny and caberra at about 1 homer per 13.5 ab....thomas career BA is a lot higher in the low .300, but his homer ratio is 1 per 20. All of the players should be considered




You also claim that manny plays in an offensive era...if that is the case, and baseball is more offensively dominat now, then you can't compare nomo's era from 1995 with dice k's era in 2007. I agree with you the game is different and it is an offensive era. Steroids, watered down talent due to expansion and just generally bigger athletes with or without steroids due to the science that has become physical training are some reasons IMO.

As for the closers, it is a different ballgame the past 15 years then it was previously. 1 inn closers have become the norm. It is tough to say how the committe will decide. Hoffman and Rivera are some of the best closers in the game, and they have done it for extended periods. Does it lock them in? No, but who knows what the voters of the HOF will be thinking 5 or so years from now.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='dafoomie']Immediate dominance was never a realistic expectation for Matsuzaka, guys who come in and dominate in their first year are by far the exception and not the rule.[/quote]

Ichiro and matsui came in and dominated right away. ditto for nomo. SO yeah, i would say the opposite is true, when a team pays stupid money for a japanese player, then in every case they are expected to come in and perform right away.

Matsuzaka had a better 1st year in the majors (15-12, 4.40 ERA) than Josh Beckett's 1st year in the AL (16-11, 5.01 ERA).

Josh beckett has been so inconsistent since coming into the league, his potential is unlimited, and he finally put together some healthy seasons. it seems like every time he does this, then he will miss half the season with blister problems. Hopefully he stays healthy.

Matsuzaka is trending upwards while a guy like Barry Zito is declining.

So far neither one looks very good.

Matsuzaka was the wiser signing,

so far neither one is wise.

Zito is being paid for past performance while Matsuzaka is being paid for future performance.

agreed.

He's probably the best starting pitcher to reach free agency since Bartolo Colon,

roger clemens
aj burnett
kelvim escobar
pedro martinez
randy johnson

are all head and shoulders better

and even these all smooshed dice k last year
lilly 3.83 ERA 1.14 WHIP .236 BAA
meche 3.67 1.30 .263

and Colon only gave the Angels one good year out of 4. Seriously, look at starting pitchers to hit free agency in the last 10 years, the vast majority of the high profile players have been disappointing.

Most of them have panned out. Colon is one that hasnt. zito and matsuzaka arent looking too good either.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='ryanbph']I agreed with most of the people you got going in the hof, and the ones I didn't wasn't worth arguing about...but manny's and cabera's numbers are very similiar...manny played as many games at 22 that caberra did at 20....both are ? marks defensively...manny's homer rate is close to 1 every 14.5 compared to caberra 1 every 20[/quote]

Cabrera has played his entire career in a pitchers park with very little lineup protection. manny is in a stacked lineup in a hitters park. you completely ignore park factors and lineup protection.

manny's career batting avg is a point higher but he has been doing it for about 10 year longer then miguel. You can't have it both ways....

I cant have what both ways? I never said either one is a lock, in fact I had them in the same category: MAYBE

Thome & Thomas both deserve looks at getting into the hall, if they do or not isn't for me to decide.

thomas is a career DH and that alone may keep him out. thome may get in. both are borderline.

Thome has a lower career BA in the low to mid .280's but his homer ratio is better then manny and caberra at about 1 homer per 13.5 ab....thomas career BA is a lot higher in the low .300, but his homer ratio is 1 per 20. All of the players should be considered

if they do enough politicking they may get in.

You also claim that manny plays in an offensive era.

i said that ALL of them play in an offensive generation.

[qoute] if that is the case, and baseball is more offensively dominat now, then you can't compare nomo's era from 1995 with dice k's era in 2007.[/quote]

I never compared them. I said that guys like matsui, nomo, and ichiro came in right away and produced. The steroid era began in the mid 1980s as documented by jose canseco and Ken Caminiti. According to them in from the mid 1980s to 2004, 75-90% of the league was on the gas.

Nomo never had much of a career anyways, he came in and had a good couple of years then bounced around the league and was completely ineffective for the most part after that.

 

[ryanbph]

[quote name='dracula']he is also the most popular japanese position player of all time. Are you saying all of you BS arguements about matsuzaka bringing in money to the red sox dont apply to matsui? Frankly it is a bullshit idea either way, and at least matsui produces.


The yanks weren't competing with anyone, and paid him a shitload more then other available free agents that offseason that put up those numbers. In todays dollar, it looks like a deal, but when they did it 2 or 3 years ago I was not. Saying that contract at that time was a good, is like saying the 5 year 15 mill deal that the sox gave jd drew was a good signing. They both put up similiar numbers...drews career ba is about .010 points lower. Drew homer per AB ratio is close to 21 abs...while matsui is roughly 25 ab's. I rounded both up, matsui's was rounded up roughly .01 higher...Neither of those contracts were good signings...and it just drove the market up for slightly above avg OF.



since coming to MLB matsui is .294 AVG/.854 OPS and he has done that every single year consistently. He is a lock for that again this year, so yeah, that is actually a pretty safe contract. Actually that is the only contract in your entire post that is NOT a bad contract.

compared to the stupid money that the sox threw at matsuzaka and the stupid money that the giants threw at zito, that is a very good contract. When people say it is OK for matsuzaka and zito to have a couple of bad years like they did last year is preposterous. Ludicrous. Ditto for giambi. Those are all idiotic contracts.



.293 avg/ .923 OPs. and then injuries have just about killed his career, so that turned out to be a bad contract. For many years, giles was the best player that people never knew about. from 1996 to 2005 he was one of the best players in the league. If he was playing in new york or los angeles he would have been in the MVP running every year.

but the past 3 years injuries have slowed him some. Whereas matsui has been(relatively) healthy the entire time he was in mLB. I have no love for the yankees, but so far that is the only contract that has worked out of the ones you mentioned.

You talk like matsuzaka can have some bad years, then if he has a good year or 2, then the 103 million contract is somehow justified. In order for the zito and matsuzaka and giambi contracts to be justified, they MUST perform like allstars EVERY year.

Jd drew has been in the league 9 years, and had 5 healthy years, it is tough to justify his long term deal, if he is healthy EVERY year then that is the only way the 5 year 70 million is justified.[/quote]


I have never said I liked the 50 million posting. I understand the sox reasoning for it. Was it stupid? Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't. He had an avg year last year. 15 wins, 4.4 era is an avg pitcher. I am not going to bother to argue about the posting fee being included in his salary as we don't agree.

Mastsui's contract at the time he was signed was roughly 33% higher then someone with similiar numbers and age. The redsox posting was roughly 60% higher then the next closest posting. Was it extreme, without a doubt. But apples to apples both team overpaid, and IMO a lot of that had to do with getting into the asian market. You can't argue that 33% higher then a know quantity was a great idea, and the sox posting 60% of an unknown # was a bad idea. They had no idea what other team were going to post, and they decided to blow it out of the water. At the time of the matsui deal he was 31 going on 32 and entering into the backside of his career. Most, not all, but most players don't have upward trends on the backside of 30. Dice K was 26 and going into his prime.

Since the matsui signing, in 2 seasons he has played a total of 194 games. He has slowed down dramatically and is now such a liability in the OF, they are going to rotate him in as a DH.

 

[ryanbph]

Not a bigtime homer...I am very pessimistic person in many cases...IMO, youkillis is one of the most overated player on the redsox. Between the fact he was shuttled back and forth between boston and AAA for several seasons and produced when called on, and your GM writting that he was the greek god of walks people up here think he is the best thing since sliced bread....he is a .285 or so hitter with some pop. Will he hit .300 at some point in his career, most likely. But he is what he is and that will be a .280 - .290 career hitter with an avg of 13 homers. Considering we have the same type of production out of 3b, I would like to see some more power at at least one of the corner inf positions.

I hated the drew signing. At the time, we had ellsbury, moss and murphy as OF prospects and willie mo pena on the team. Pena defensively was a liablity in RF at fenway. Offensively he wasn't a fit for the redsox style of play. Redsox hitters work the count, take pitches. Pena was a free swinger. Murphy put up some decent numbers in TX after the gagne trade, and had a solid spring. Moss is a younger version of drew, but he will be stuck without a place to play untill he or drew is moved. IMO, drew should have a much better year this year then last assuming he is healthy. He had a lot of issues with his children last year. His numbers last year when he was playing shitty were all during the time his child had serious medical issues. He started off really hot, his child got sick and his numbers plumeted. His child got out of the woodwork so to speak in late aug, and drew had a great sept. Was it a bad contract without a doubt. Was is necessary to sign him, espically to the length? No way in hell.

I hate hearing contract extension talks for varitek. ing posada's monster long term deal with NY is going to make it impossible to sign him to a short term deal. He is one of the best playcalling catchers in baseball. He has/and will help along the plethora of young pitching the redsox have. Offensively he is becoming a major liablitiy, and as the season goes on, his numbers drop. I would hate to have to sign him to a 3 or 4 year extension but we have no catching prospect anywhere near ready at this time. We traded shoppach to clevand for cocco and bard. We then traded bard to get mirabelli back. So we are going to be stuck with 2 hitters at the bottom of the order in varitek and lugo that can't hit for the forseable future.

I did love the colon signing. Low risk high reward. He actually appears healthy. Last night in AAA was throwing 92 - 94mph and pitched very well. He is allegedly pitching rather then throwing like he used to. Good mix of offspeed pitches. He historically doesn't get his fastball up to the 99mph untill may. While he most likely won't be hitting 99, if he is throwing 95 - 96mph with a good mix of changeups and is painting the corners he would be a solid additon to the rotation if buckhlotz can't adjust to the 20 extra (allegedly muscle but he was a toothpick) pounds he put on in the offseason.



And yes Fenway is a hitters ballpark. But lets be honest, the overwhelming of homers/hits that manny gets are line drive laser beams. There isn't manny lazy pop fly homers over the moster or bouncing of the wall singles (that is correct manny doesn't run out of the box). I watch the redsox a lot. As for protection in the lineup. For a little while manny batted 3rd, with ortiz protected him. That didn't last long. Manny has had trot nixon, jason varitek, jd drew and mike lowell batting behind him for the past couple of seasons. It isn't like they feared hitters. Yes they are better then what caberra has dealt with, but a great hitter is a great hitter no matter who is in front or behind them.

 

[CocheseUGA]

:facepalm:

I'll only address Andruw, because frankly everything else you said was laughable. Well, maybe I'll discuss more.

Andruw will be 31 this year. He has averaged 28 HRs a year for his career. Last year was his career low in average, and second lowest HR output. The man never listened to Terry Pendleton. Hopefully, being with another team will allow him to refocus and stop trying to hit every pitch he sees onto Labrea Blvd.

Andruw needs 132HR to reach 500. That's 22/yr for 6 years. I don't consider that unreasonable at all, especially when he'll be playing 2-3 more series at Coors Field every year he's with LA. He'll probably end his career as a DH, theoretically allowing him to focus more on his plate discipline.

The people saying he's the best outfielder of all time? Yeah, they also saw Mays. That's how they felt qualified to say it. I have to take their words on it. He also has the same average as Smith, and Smith was a first-ballot 91% entrant. I wouldn't say he barely got in.

I talk primarily about the Braves because I've watched 150+ games a year for the past 15 years. They're who I know, but it's not exclusive. It's not as if I'm pulling numbers from baseball-reference.com (ahem).

If you're going to keep people out because they played in the steroid era, then you can't let anyone it. You'll also have to take Cy Young out because pitchers today don't pitch every day like he did. Sounds pretty stupid, doesn't it? Same goes for the steroid era. People might as well try to juice more, because according to you they won't be going into the HOF.

Manny is a .313 hitter who will get to 500 this year. Let me just name some other players who can say that:
Hank Aaron
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Jimmie Foxx
Teddy Ballgame
A-Rod
Frank Thomas
Mel OTT (CWATIDIDTHAR?)

That's it. Nine players. If Barry Bonds never plays again, he's not on there. Neither are Killebrew, Jackson, Frank Robinson, Griffey, Schmidt, Mantle, McCovey, Banks, Matthews, Thome or Murray.

As a matter of fact, the only players in that club that have a higher average are the Babe, Double X and the Splendid Splinter.

Niekro got in with a better vote than Cy Young. Took ten years, but it's not as if he just squeeked over the cut line.

Tom Glavine will probably be the last pitcher ever with 300 wins. Only pitchers EVER that have 300 wins and aren't in the HOF? Clemens, Maddux, Glavine.

Other players that I know are HOFers (either I've heard mentioned by prominent writers and/or my opinion - they may or may not have been mentioned)

Piazza
Bagwell
Dawson
Rice
Mattingly (probably never will, but should)

That's all I can think of at the moment

 

[ryanbph]

I don't think rice is a HOF...he was a feared hitter for a length of time but he didn't play long enough with consistent stats...and he didn't break either the 400 homer barrier or the .300 career ba barrier that IMO for that time period is the benchmark. Another big issue he has had getting in, is the fact that he was an alleged asshole to the media when he played. I think several of the rotated voters for the hall in boston don't vote for him because of that. When you hometown writters that have the ability to vote you into the hall and they talk shit about you and downplay your abilities, it isn't a good sign. He also doesn't do much to help himself get into the hall. I do love his time on NESN analysing the current redsox games in the pre/post shows. Brings a different insight to some plays and/or players.

Mattingly is another player that didn't produce at a high level for long enough. His power numbers were solid for 7 or so years. But they disappeard the last 5 years. His BA and fielding might get him into the hall, but I know several die hard yankee fans that don't think he belongs.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='CocheseUGA']:facepalm:

I'll only address Andruw, because frankly everything else you said was laughable.[/quote]

We will never agree about the Red sox having to pay the posting fee for matsuzaka. You say it doesnt count, and suggest that the sox somehow got out of paying it. That is just preposterous.

You say it somehow brings in more fans to Fenway, it doesnt. Or that it is some sort of investment that will pay off later. That is just flat out wrong. Feel free to go ahead and laugh.

Andruw will be 31 this year. He has averaged 28 HRs a year for his career. Last year was his career low in average, and second lowest HR output. The man never listened to Terry Pendleton. Hopefully, being with another team will allow him to refocus and stop trying to hit every pitch he sees onto Labrea Blvd.

Andruw needs 132HR to reach 500. That's 22/yr for 6 years. I don't consider that unreasonable at all, especially when he'll be playing 2-3 more series at Coors Field every year he's with LA. He'll probably end his career as a DH, theoretically allowing him to focus more on his plate discipline.

Loads of players who hit 500 homers wont get in(mcguire, sosa, palmerio wont get in, frank thomas and thome might not get in). You talk like jones is playing good and at the height of his career. Its very possible that its all downhill from here.

If you're going to keep people out because they played in the steroid era, then you can't let anyone it. .

first off, i never said you keep EVERYONE out. I am saying there isnt room for ALL of those players. Which is why i said MAYBE they get in, but no way all of them can get in. there isnt going to be enough room for ALL of them:

they only induct 1 or 2 guys every year, and when guys like mcguire, palmeiro, canseco, thome, manny, frank thomas, become eligible all at once, not all will get in. Do the math.

Manny is a .313 hitter who will get to 500 this year. Let me just name some other players who can say that:
Hank Aaron
Babe Ruth
Willie Mays
Jimmie Foxx
Teddy Ballgame
A-Rod
Frank Thomas
Mel OTT (CWATIDIDTHAR?)

You said that if manny retired TODAY, he gets in. i dont think that will be enough. You keep changing what you said, now you are saying if he keeps playing, he will have the numbers to get in. And that is exactly what i said. In a few more years, MAYBE.

That's it. Nine players. If Barry Bonds never plays again, he's not on there. Neither are Killebrew, Jackson, Frank Robinson, Griffey, Schmidt, Mantle, McCovey, Banks, Matthews, Thome or Murray.

Compare manny's OPS to the rest of them if you really want to make an arguement for him, that is more impressive than his average. All i said is that he wont get in if he retired TODAY.

IF he plays a few more years at a high level, then MAYBE.

Niekro got in with a better vote than Cy Young. Took ten years, but it's not as if he just squeeked over the cut line.

Right, and glavine doesnt have as good of numbers as him. In fact, glavine has worse ERA and WHIP of ANY pitcher in the hall of fame. You can continue to ignore that, or maybe you dont seem to understand that not letting the other team score runs makes a good pitcher, and you have a low ERA and that a low ERA is GOOD. If the other team scores runs(like they do against glavine) then he is not a good pitcher.

Tom Glavine will probably be the last pitcher ever with 300 wins.

randy johnson has 284 wins, he could easily get to 300. His numbers are head and shoulders above glavine. And its impossible to say which good young pitchers will stay healthy long enough to get to 300.

Only pitchers EVER that have 300 wins and aren't in the HOF? Clemens, Maddux, Glavine.

You keep talking about how his shitty ERA and WHIp dont matter, and wont affect his chances at HOF, Fortunately, the HOF voters understand these subtlties of baseball like ERA and WHIP.

I may have already posted this, but maybe not.

randy johnson(284 wins) 3.22 ERA/ 1.16 whip / .218 batting average against
clemens: 3.12/1.17
maddux: 3.11/1.14/,249
.
.
.
.
.
.
glavine:3.50 1.31 .257

clemens>glavine
maddux>glavine
randy johnson>glavine

the other pitchers we talk about like pedro and smoltz all squash glavine as well.

I am guessing glavine keeps getting lit up this year and his career numbers will get worse and worse, and squash his chances of getting in.

Other players that I know are HOFers

NONE of the guys you mentioned are in the hall of fame. If you are saying they "should" be that is another story.

(either I've heard mentioned by prominent writers and/or my opinion - they may or may not have been mentioned)

Piazza
Bagwell
Dawson
Rice
Mattingly (probably never will, but should)

That's all I can think of at the moment

piazza is probably the only player on that list that will get in. He has more homers than any other catcher. he defense sucked, but he could hit.

The rest of those guys wont get in, neither should glavine or vizquel.

If you meant biggio instead of bagwell, yeah biggio is a lock. He has 3000 hits and that is a lot more impressive than 500 homers. Over the next 10 to 15 years we will literally see dozens of guys with 500 homers, but only a handful of guys with 3000 hits.

you can cry all you want about guys like mattingly and andruw jones not getting in, and how they should get in, i am just giving you realistic explanations as to why they wont get in.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='ryanbph']I don't think rice is a HOF...A big issue he has had getting in, is the fact that he was an alleged asshole to the media when he played.[/quote]

the newspapers hated ted williams more than we hate bonds, and williams got in. Bonds probobly will too. his numbers are there of course, he is a big enough of and asshole that he might not get in. But the hoF is full of assholes, ty cobb beat up a guy in a wheelchair.

Mattingly is another player that didn't produce at a high level for long enough. His power numbers were solid for 7 or so years. But they disappeard the last 5 years. His BA and fielding might get him into the hall, but I know several die hard yankee fans that don't think he belongs.

mattingly had 9 gold gloves.

Keith hernandez had 11 and got in, and they have similar offense

 

[CocheseUGA]

Oh. My. God.

I want to frame what you post and refer back to it ten years for laughs.

Gammons states that Glavine is a 1st ballot HOF. http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blo...ndex?entryID=3168536&searchName=gammons_peter

Thoughts on Glavine being last to 300: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=2956095

Olney's take on Glavine being a 1st ballot HOF: http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blo...y_buster&campaign=rsssrch&source=buster_olney

BTW, let me know when Johnson actually pitches again in the bigs.

About the Dice-K deal:

What we're saying is that the posting fee isn't part of his contract. That's fact. Period. Yes, they paid it. Yes, (IMO) it's a long-term investment. No, it's not a part of his contract. Any excuses to the contrary are irrelevant.

 

[Ugamer_X]

I hate the Red Sox as much as humanly possible and even I think Manny should be in the Hall. He's played so good for so long and has the numbers to back it up.

I also think Mattingly belongs there. Compare his stats with Sandberg's. Mattingly exceeds Sandberg's numbers in some areas despite having fewer at bats. Sandberg got in so quickly because of the position he played.

 

[ryanbph]

a lot of people were shocked that keith hernadez got in. He also was playing in the league for a lot longer. Granted a lot of those seasons he had lengthy trips on the DL, but isn't like mattingly was a healthy player for his entire career.


big difference between williams and ty cobb being assholes and rice being an asshole is the media what it was then and today.

Rice is a borderline player at best, and he was an asshole during his playing days...williams and cobb weren't borderline. Barry Bonds stat wise isn't borderline either. If you were a superstar and asshole it doesn't matter. If you are borderline, you were considered an asshole during your playing time and have local hall of fame writters openly dismissing your claim to be inducted into the Hall of Fame you have a big stumbling block in front of you. There are boston sport writters openly claiming they aren't voting for rice and downplaying his abilities. They credit he was a feared hitter, but only say it was for several of years. That he was a 1 dimensional player, they say that his career was too short and had a severe dropoff. These are facts. He has been borderline getting in the past several ballots. I don't know how many more chances he has left on the ballot before he starts to drop. IMO his best shot is with the veterans committee

 

[dracula]

[quote name='CocheseUGA']Oh. My. God.

I want to frame what you post and refer back to it ten years for laughs.

Gammons states that Glavine is a 1st ballot HOF. http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blo...ndex?entryID=3168536&searchName=gammons_peter[/quote]

gammons is a senile old man. he is 63 and sort of lucid.

Thoughts on Glavine being last to 300: http://sports.espn.go.com/mlb/columns/story?columnist=kurkjian_tim&id=2956095

man, espn "analysts" are hilarious. According to kurkjian, glavine isnt just a first ballot pitcher, he is also better than sandy koufax(!) i understand the part about longevity and durability is fantastic. But to say that koufax is not as good as glavine is silly.

glavine has only pitched in a 5 man rotation, and always gets 4 days rest and would lit up on three days rest. so much for his durability

Koufax was always on 3 days rest, and has even come back on 2 days rest to throw a complete game to clinch the 1966 pennant.

I like, no i LOVE this stat: Glavine has pitched with fewer than four days' rest seven previous times in the postseason, and he is 2-5 with a 6.75 ERA

http://newyork.mets.mlb.com/news/ar...t_id=1714043&vkey=news_nym&fext=.jsp&c_id=nym

If glavine is durable, then why does he ALWAYS tank on 3 days rest when the stakes are the highest in the playoffs?

I am sure you will gloss over glavines lack of durability when it matters most and all of his choke jobs in the postseason, or ignore it all together.

Glavine couldnt wear koufax's jock
from wikipedia:

+koufax is second in career no hitters(4)
+has 0.95 ERA in 4 World Series
+Holds single-season record for most shutouts by a left-handed pitcher (11),
+1 of 17 pitchers to throw a perfect game

then he comes up with this idiotic statement:

Glavine also has 14 postseason victories; only Smoltz, with 15, has more.

andy pettitte has 14 postseason victories, this idiot will probably come up with an article saying how Pettitte is a first ballot HOF(he isnt). by that logic, pettitte is a better pitcher than tom seaver, gibson and koufax. Afterall, he has 14 postseaon wins! Therefore, he must be a hall of famer!

Glavine did all this without throwing 95 mph, but few pitchers have commanded a fastball and changeup better than he has.

The big problem with that logic is that since the league added the divisional series on top of the league championship series and world series, that is an extra series that NONE of the previous pitchers had. That is garbage. That is essentially suggesting that pettitte and glavine are better post season pitchers and gibson and koufax.

After Johnson, no one else with at least 200 wins seems likely to make it,

that is actually the one thing in that article i agree with.

and no young pitcher is off to such a sensational start that he's a threat to 300 even with mass statistical projection.

There is no way of knowing how durable tim lincecum, phil hughes, cole hamels, johnny cueto, etc are going to be. these kids come into the league at age 21 and 22 and set the league on fire. To say NONE of them has a shot at 300 wins is silly.

Olney's take on Glavine being a 1st ballot HOF: http://insider.espn.go.com/espn/blo...y_buster&campaign=rsssrch&source=buster_olney

Dont waste your money on espn insider. spend it at baseball america or baseballprospectus and you will get far better quality reading.

As much as I like pettitte, glavine and moyer, they dont belong in the same company as maddux, clemens, pedro, seaver, koufax gibson, smoltz etc.

BTW, let me know when Johnson actually pitches again in the bigs.

allegedly he is back in the second week of april

If you mean 'when will he come back and pitch good?" that is anyone's guess. You dont have to pitch good to get wins. Just ask paul byrd

About the Dice-K deal:

What we're saying is that the posting fee isn't part of his contract. That's fact. Period.

I have never once questioned that. I only have a problem when fools suggest that the red sox never had to pay the money. some seem to genuinely think that somehow since it doesnt count against the the luxury tax threshold, then the sox somehow got around paying it and so they discount it all together.

You say things like "the sox arent really paying that much money at all for matsuzaka, because half of it doesnt count against the luxury tax so it doesnt count"- now that is not an exact quote, but pretty damn close.

Yes, they paid it. Yes, (IMO) it's a long-term investment. No, it's not a part of his contract. Any excuses to the contrary are irrelevant.

exactly. its a long term investment and so far it is a terrible investment. Will it pay off over the years? maybe

And I know i am in the minority about glavine. Face it, he would have the highest ERA and WHIP of anyone in cooperstown IF and when he gets there. these are FACTS.

He had great durability, except when the stakes were high and he would tank on 3 days rest in the playoffs. But you probably dont "count" that either. Youve essentially made my case for me. As long as you dont want to count any of glavines numbers besides the wins, then sure he is a HOF worthy.

 

[integralsmatic]

I dont think the writers are going to look closely at his stats on 3 days rest. thats kind being too specific dont you think?

I agree Kurkjin went a little too far saying Glavine is better than Koufax...but woudlnt you think the way the games are played now and then have something to do with it?

i dont think Gammons is senile.....he is in the Hall of Fame too..if that means anything....

Dam mets/braves rained out today. But tomorrow can be ing EPIC! Santana vs Smoltz. Smoltz's return from the DL facing arguably the best pitcher in baseball. Two Giants going at it....im so ing pysched...just dont let it rain please!

 

[CocheseUGA]

[quote name='integralsmatic']I dont think the writers are going to look closely at his stats on 3 days rest. thats kind being too specific dont you think?

I agree Kurkjin went a little too far saying Glavine is better than Koufax...but woudlnt you think the way the games are played now and then have something to do with it?

i dont think Gammons is senile.....he is in the Hall of Fame too..if that means anything....

Dam mets/braves rained out today. But tomorrow can be ing EPIC! Santana vs Smoltz. Smoltz's return from the DL facing arguably the best pitcher in baseball. Two Giants going at it....im so ing pysched...just dont let it rain please![/QUOTE]

According to him, he's more knowledgeable than three members of the BBWAA, one of which is a HOFer himself.

If I was going to be in town earlier today, I'd go to the game.

 

[DomLando]

[quote name='integralsmatic']I dont think the writers are going to look closely at his stats on 3 days rest. thats kind being too specific dont you think?

I agree Kurkjin went a little too far saying Glavine is better than Koufax...but woudlnt you think the way the games are played now and then have something to do with it?

i dont think Gammons is senile.....he is in the Hall of Fame too..if that means anything....

Dam mets/braves rained out today. But tomorrow can be ing EPIC! Santana vs Smoltz. Smoltz's return from the DL facing arguably the best pitcher in baseball. Two Giants going at it....im so ing pysched...just dont let it rain please![/QUOTE]

You will have to wait until Sunday for Santana Smoltz. The rain out just moved back the starters a day so Maine vs Hudson will be Saturday. Glavine will have to wait to face the Mets.

 

[ryanbph]

randy's johnson last minor league was a rocky one...Personally I don't think he is going to get 300

 

[dracula]

[quote name='CocheseUGA']According to him, he's more knowledgeable than three members of the BBWAA, one of which is a HOFer himself.

If I was going to be in town earlier today, I'd go to the game.[/QUOTE]

Gammons isnt the only HOF I disagree with. Joe morgan says even more outrageous things that that. Morgan like players who play the way how he likes to think the way he played(good plate discipline) and not the way he really played.

He constantly contradicts himself and rambles in nonsequedors. Hell, he even has his own website of www.firejoemorgan.com

The point is that not all announcers are competent, even the hall of fame announcers. I am guessing Tim Mccarver has a shot at the hall of fame as a broadcaster. And yes, 90% of baseball fans know more about baseball that he does(small exaggeration)

I love that logic of "if someone is an espn journalist, then they must be smart". They are an on air personality, and as such everything they say and write will be second guessed, and NOT everything they say is infallable.

I used to read and listen to peter gammons religiously when I was a rotisserie nut. When i read some of the things he says now, i just laugh.

And again, all i said was that glavine will get in, even though he shouldnt. I said was that his numbers are worse than any of the current HOF pitchers, and they are. this is FACT and apparently that doesnt matter.

cochese, you say you find what i say funny, you are the one saying things like "the braves rotation is really deep" because they have half a dozen guys on their roster that can pitch poorly and are injury prone. We wont agree on that either.

I guess the more interesting debates are about all of the power hitters getting into the hall given the climate of baseball today.

mcguire, sosa, frank thomas, jim thome, bagwell. none will get in.

mcguire and sosa wont get in for the steroids, ditto for palmeiro. Its funny, before palmeiro tested positive for stanzobal, i though he was a surefire HOF. after that, there is no way in hell he gets in.

Sosa also got busted for using a corked bat.

frank thomas is an interesting case.

.303/513/.931

from a DH hitter. there will be too many powerhitters hitting 500 homers that not all of them get in. Those numbers are good, but not enough to be in the hall of fame, especially as a DH. The one thing I find really impressive about thomas is that he has good discipline(more BB than Ks) While i like that, that wont be enough.

thome would have had absolutely no shot a few years ago but now I am not so sure. The past 3 years he is prolonging his career as a DH and hitting 42 and 35 homers and looks to be in good shape this year.

.281/509/.974

Good number from a 1b/DH but again, 500 homers isnt going to be enough. IF he can

Bagwell yet another powerhitter with good numbers. As these players get dwarfed by pujols, arod, (and yes, manny) etc their numbers wont look too good at all.

.297/449/.948

here is what manny has done SO FAR

.313/491/1.002

Really not all that different from the rest, except for the slightly better AVG and OPS. IF all of these players quit today(bagwell is already out) then i dont think ANY of them get in.

Manny's career may be in trouble, here is what he did in 2007: .296/20/.881. still solid numbers but that is a rapid decline down from .321/35/1.058. He is only 36, it sort of depends on what he does the next few years, but right now, NO he isnt getting in.

And again, this is an era of offense.

compare these numbers to pujols

.332/282/1.041 so far, he squashes the rest(including manny). now he is 28, and there is no way of knowing if he keeps this up or not over time or if he ever breaks bonds single season HR record, but if .332/1.041 is now what it will takes for a 1b to get in, we cant be putting in the likes of thomas/thome

Vlad guerrero

.324/365/.969 and he plays defense. This is why I say thome and thomas and bagwell dont get in. i think vlad COULD get in(barring injury or if he totally falls apart) but he is no lock. ditto for manram. We are talking about the Hall of FAME, not the hall of very good.

arod
.306/519/.967 and 3 mvps.

The HOF is only for the very best. To say that manny gets in NOW if he retired TODAY is unrealistic. if he plays another 4 years he will likely top 600 homers, and THAT will be tough to get him out.

todd helton
.302/334/1.024

Playing at coors field likely killed any shot he ever had at the HOF

griffey
.290/593/.927 and 1 mvp and member of the all century team. 10 gold gloves. The last 7 injury years dont hurt his chances much. He was truly amazing in the 1990s.

andruw jones

.262/368/.838

the 9 gold gloves certainly help his case, but as it stands he isnt even close to being in the same class as the rest of these players offensively. Someone can say "but he could hit 500 homers!" there are dozens of guys hitting 500 homers who wont get in, and last year he hit .222/28/.724.'

NONE of the rest of these hof candidates has had a year that bad while healthy(thome, bagwell and thomas have had a few injury years like this, and they arent getting in either). so that definitely hurts his case. make all the excuses in the world for andruw, he may have a comeback year, he may simply have some years of hitting .240/25/.750. Not terrible years but definitely not HOF.

The best arguement for jones is his defense. the 9 gold gloves at age 30 are fantastic, and even if he doesnt win gold gloves, as long as he plays amazing defense he has a shot. But offensively he isnt even close.

He is essenstially a poor man's ken griffey JR, which is still damn good, but not HOF worthy(at least not yet).

the stroiders

sosa has over 600 homers with help from a corked bat and steroids

palmeiro 569 homers, 3 gold gloves and never went on the disabled list in his career. He also tested positive for steroids.

Mcguire. had 5 seasons where he hit 50 homer or more. Also hit 70 in 1998. When asked whether he took steroids or not at the congressional hearings, he broke down crying and says he doesnt want to talk about it.

Bonds, now here is the interesting case. His numbers are there, no question. Before getting ont he gas, he was one of the top 50 players to ever play the game, member of the all century team. After taking steroids he becames the second best player of all time.

He had a stretch of five years that were better than anyone whoever played the game:

babe ruth , 1920-1924

.376/54/1.382
.378/59/1.468
.315/35/1.106
.393/41/1.109
.378/46/1.309

bonds 2001-2005

.306/49/1.127
.328/73/1.006
.370/47/1.381
.341/45/1.278
.362/45/1.422

He did this while taking steroids and making a mockery of the game in the process. yes, he was a top 50 player before ever taking steroids and a member of the all century team, but he also has done tremendous harm to MLB by roiding up, becoming a steroid cheat to become the greatest player ever. will the voters vote him in? i think they have to, unfortunately, based solely on his talent, both before and after taking steroids

Cochese, We've talked to death about glavine, while his numbers arent even close to the other HOF candidates, he will probably get in anyways because he piled up so many wins-which is what ive said all along.

I will save the rivera and hoffman debates for another day and same for the middle infielders(jeter, tejada, biggio, vizquel etc and ditto for the other slap hitters like ichiro and borderline SP)

To sum up IF THEY RETIRED TODAY:

NO
frank thomas, jim thome, jeff bagwell, sammy sosa, mark mguire, rafael palmeiro, todd helton

YES
griffey, arod, bonds

Not NOW but MAYBE in the future
vlad, manny, andruw jones(only on based on his defence)

Feel free to add some names or continue to rip on me. frankly i dont think that andruw jones belongs in the conversation YET. ditto for david wright, miguel cabrera, mark teixeira etc In the future MAYBE.

As for "why dont ALL of those player get in, why are there so many maybe's?" That is simple, pujols, arod, and bonds are setting the bar, the ones that fall short dont make the cut. The hall of fame is for the VERY BEST. The creme de la creme, cream of the crop.

it is the hall of FAME. NOT the hall of pretty damn good. , I wont be shocked if some red sox fan says that matsuzaka belongs in the conversation and say matsuzaka is doing good, and deserves to go into the HOF because of his 15 wins, then "i'll take that" and his ERA and other numbers "dont count".

 

[ph33r m3]

Sandy Koufax is one of the top 5 pitchers of all time.

Remember, watching tapes of him when i'd go over to my grandparents house. Even though he was with the Dodgers, his pitching technique was flawless.

 

[vrs1650]

I almost had a heart attack when I heard him say Glavine was better than Koufax. I can admit I am biased being a Dodger Fan, but Koufax is one of the top five of all time. At least for his five or six years he was in his prime. He did have it rough at the start and ended way to early. So I do agree that part of Koufax's mystique is what could have been if he was healthy.

As far as Glavine in the HOF, I think yeah he will be at some point. He will not make it his first couple of times, but he will make it in. I know he has 300 wins, etc, but I would compare him more to Bert Blyleven than Sandy Koufax. And Blyleven hasn't had an easy go of getting in.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='vrs1650']I almost had a heart attack when I heard him say Glavine was better than Koufax.[/QUOTE]

well, according to cochese, if a "reporter" from espn says something, then it must be true.

Although, it sounds like the part about glavine being better than koufax was maybe devil's advocate



I did forget about gary sheffield .295/480/.918

he doesnt get in either. he would get into the hall of very good, but not the hall of fame

 

[ryanbph]

sheff is borderline...depends how much longer he many more seasons he can play and how productive he could be. If he doesn't play another game it would be a longshot.
Depending on who is eligible for the hall when sheff is on the ballot could help him.

 

[dracula]

[quote name='ryanbph']sheff is borderline...depends how much longer he many more seasons he can play and how productive he could be. If he doesn't play another game it would be a longshot.
Depending on who is eligible for the hall when sheff is on the ballot could help him.[/QUOTE]

sheff isnt borderline. he'd not getting in.

and as for glavine:
bert byleven didnt get in, and he has better numbers than glavine;

Blyleven 3.31 ERA 1.198 whip 287 wins.

 

[CocheseUGA]

It's obvious you're just speaking out of your ass now. You say we can't assume Andruw Jones can't do X, but it's ok to assume that if Bert got better support he'd have more wins?

Pick one. Either assumptions are allowed, or they are not.

The HOF voters are obviously looking at more than just stats, something you are not capable of doing. You know, since they cover the games and all.

Blyleven has a 2-1 record in the postseason. Glavine is 14-16. While that looks horrible at first glance, that's the second most wins in the postseason all-time. He also pitched Game 6 of the 1995 WS, and it was a beaut. Glavine is 303-199, whereas Blyleven is 287-250. You're consistently distorting stats to fit your arguement

When you can make arguements that don't soley evolve around stats, I'll discuss HOF canidacy again. Otherwise, I'm sticking to the present.

Kelly Johnson FTMFW, Mets fans.

I'll address the rotation depth a little bit later, because you and I have a different concept of what defines 'deep'.

 

[opterasis]

I can see it's going to be another dissapointing year for me being a red sox fan.

 

[ryanbph]

the redsox have sucked vs the bluejays the past couple of seasons....last year they lost 5 straight to the bluejays late in the season which let the yankee's back into thinking they could take first...I don't know why but the sox just can't hit bluejay pitching...

As a sox fan, I am sick and tired of listening to them bitch about the trip to japan and how it ed them up. Historically it has ed up most of the teams that went there but to continue to whine and bitch about it is absurd. I have never flown to japan, but I have flown to hawaii numerous times and with layovers/bad weather it has taken me upward of 24 hours to go from boston to hawaii. I can understand jet lag to a point but come on. They landed on a friday and there first game was on a tuesday. The one thing that could undue the sox this year, besides the alleged hangover from going to japan is the tough schedule they have coming up. 20 games in 20 days with 5 games vs the yanks, a series with detroit, clevand and the angels. They also have tampa (a much improved team), texas and toronto (whom they have a hard time with)

 

[ryanbph]

[quote name='dracula']sheff isnt borderline. And it doesnt depend on who is eligible when he is on the ballot. In 2006, 18 players were inducted. In 2008, only one player is getting inducted.

.[/quote]


if sheff had a bunch of great players on the tix with him, he could lose votes. Numerous writter vote for someone one year, and then not do it the next vote. I don't know the reason why, I would imagine some of it has to do with a change of opinion and some of it has to do with other people on the ballot that they might feel more strongly for, that weren't there a year ago.

 

[integralsmatic]

[quote name='DomLando']You will have to wait until Sunday for Santana Smoltz. The rain out just moved back the starters a day so Maine vs Hudson will be Saturday. Glavine will have to wait to face the Mets.[/quote]

i forgot about that..well i dont want to remember saturday anyway...man did we suck it up.

[quote name='CocheseUGA']Kelly Johnson FTMFW, Mets fans.[/quote]

yeah Thanks to Jorge Sosa. boy for his sake, i hope he doesnt become a Mota type pitcher....always giving up homers. I still to this day, have no clue why willie doesnt use Feliciano more....that pains me when i dont see him in a game..especially against lefties!

 

[CocheseUGA]

 

[integralsmatic]

god do i hate atlanta .....
or wait..

god do i hate bullpen and no offense..

when can we please get rid of Delgado. i like the man and all..but he just isnt the same anymore..and hats off to Smoltz. Its like the injury didnt affect him one bit.

 

[Chitown021]

Man the Brewers are on fire to start the season. Of course it certainly helps when your opponent is the Giants.
The Cubs have had to battle back just to get to .500. Soriano needs to hit better than .048 for the cash he's getting paid.

What's wrong with this picture?

Royals: 4-2
Tigers: 0-6

 

[DomLando]

[quote name='integralsmatic']god do i hate atlanta .....
or wait..

god do i hate bullpen and no offense..

when can we please get rid of Delgado. i like the man and all..but he just isnt the same anymore..and hats off to Smoltz. Its like the injury didnt affect him one bit.[/QUOTE]

Delgado is the only one that had a few hits yesterday. He is starting to hit the ball to opposite field so maybe that will help him. Give him a little time, as this is only game 5. He is in the last year of his contract though so it won't be long until he is gone. Smoltz pitched a great game. The only thing the injury did affect was making him leave after 5 innings. It seemed to tighten up on him and he said later he did not want to take a chance, with it being his first start.

Santana pitched great. The only thing that worries me is who will pitch the 8th in front of Wagner. Obviously Heilman is not the guy. Willie should try someone else. Heilman gives up way to many HRs and the one yesterday hurt the Mets even more because of them scoring one in the 9th. I would try Feliciano for the 8th. Willie needs to change it up, and his bullpen/pitching management is the one reason I wanted the Mets to fire him after last year.

After 5 games I don't think there is any reason to panic. They played well without Pedro last year so as long as there offense picks up the slack they will be fine.

 

[CocheseUGA]

 

[integralsmatic]

god do i hate atlanta .....
or wait..

god do i hate bullpen and no offense..

when can we please get rid of Delgado. i like the man and all..but he just isnt the same anymore..and hats off to Smoltz. Its like the injury didnt affect him one bit.

 

[Chitown021]

Man the Brewers are on fire to start the season. Of course it certainly helps when your opponent is the Giants.
The Cubs have had to battle back just to get to .500. Soriano needs to hit better than .048 for the cash he's getting paid.

What's wrong with this picture?

Royals: 4-2
Tigers: 0-6

 

[DomLando]

[quote name='integralsmatic']god do i hate atlanta .....
or wait..

god do i hate bullpen and no offense..

when can we please get rid of Delgado. i like the man and all..but he just isnt the same anymore..and hats off to Smoltz. Its like the injury didnt affect him one bit.[/QUOTE]

Delgado is the only one that had a few hits yesterday. He is starting to hit the ball to opposite field so maybe that will help him. Give him a little time, as this is only game 5. He is in the last year of his contract though so it won't be long until he is gone. Smoltz pitched a great game. The only thing the injury did affect was making him leave after 5 innings. It seemed to tighten up on him and he said later he did not want to take a chance, with it being his first start.

Santana pitched great. The only thing that worries me is who will pitch the 8th in front of Wagner. Obviously Heilman is not the guy. Willie should try someone else. Heilman gives up way to many HRs and the one yesterday hurt the Mets even more because of them scoring one in the 9th. I would try Feliciano for the 8th. Willie needs to change it up, and his bullpen/pitching management is the one reason I wanted the Mets to fire him after last year.

After 5 games I don't think there is any reason to panic. They played well without Pedro last year so as long as there offense picks up the slack they will be fine.

 

[integralsmatic]

[quote name='DomLando']Delgado is the only one that had a few hits yesterday. He is starting to hit the ball to opposite field so maybe that will help him. Give him a little time, as this is only game 5. He is in the last year of his contract though so it won't be long until he is gone. Smoltz pitched a great game. The only thing the injury did affect was making him leave after 5 innings. It seemed to tighten up on him and he said later he did not want to take a chance, with it being his first start.

Santana pitched great. The only thing that worries me is who will pitch the 8th in front of Wagner. Obviously Heilman is not the guy. Willie should try someone else. Heilman gives up way to many HRs and the one yesterday hurt the Mets even more because of them scoring one in the 9th. I would try Feliciano for the 8th. Willie needs to change it up, and his bullpen/pitching management is the one reason I wanted the Mets to fire him after last year.

After 5 games I don't think there is any reason to panic. They played well without Pedro last year so as long as there offense picks up the slack they will be fine.[/quote]

yea i see what your saying. I missed the atlanta series so i can only go by the highlights. I did notice delgado's opposite field hits in the Marlins series though..so maybe he will come around.

Yeah the bullpen/pitching management was horrendus last year. I dont know why willie keeps going back to Sosa or Heilman in that spot. I think guys like Wise(who was solid and only let 1 pitch get away) and Feliciano should get more chances. And that was really destroys me, is that why doesnt willie use Feliciano more or if not at all. He has been our most consistent reliever we've had. i think he would be great to set up Wagner.

I heard the mets are talking to the Brewers about Claudio Vargas. He would be a fairly nice addition and plug him in 4 or 5 and the rotation is even more stable than it already is.

Santana pitched like he always does. Lights out...just that the bullpen like usual, gives the game away....but it didnt help that the offense sputtered big time also. I hope we take out the Phils.

 

[Fuzi0n]

[quote name='Chitown021']

What's wrong with this picture?

Royals: 4-2
Tigers: 0-6[/quote]

I just want to cry .

 

[ph33r m3]

Lets go Blue Jays.

Home Opener today in SF....Eugenio Velez anyone?

 

[ryanbph]

[quote name='integralsmatic']Yeah the bullpen/pitching management was horrendus last year. I dont know why willie keeps going back to Sosa or Heilman in that spot. I think guys like Wise(who was solid and only let 1 pitch get away) and Feliciano should get more chances. And that was really destroys me, is that why doesnt willie use Feliciano more or if not at all. He has been our most consistent reliever we've had. i think he would be great to set up Wagner.
[/quote]


well willes does come from the joe torre school of management...which is to only use a limited # of relievers because you don't trust anyone else. You then kill their arm due to overuse and have to look to find someone else to trust.:lol::lol:

 

[ph33r m3]

You may say to yourself, hey Jinsanity! Brian Sabean can't be the WORST General Manager in the league right? Oh...you couldn't be more wrong.

""Mostly, the Giants were left to admire Brewers starter Carlos Villanueva, who originally came through the San Francisco organization but went to Milwaukee in the 2004 trade that netted pitcher Wayne Franklin. There is a story here in Cheeseland that when the Brewers asked for Villanueva in the deal, Giants general manager Brian Sabean did not know who he was."

-Article from Yahoo Sports.

 

[Ski Hawk]

Cubs win.

Also, Hardball made easy

 

[Chitown021]

[quote name='Ski Hawk']Cubs win.

Also, Hardball made easy[/quote]

The Cubs tried to give the game away today... When I went to lunch I checked the score and saw we were up 7-0, on my way home I checked the score and saw 8-8 in the 11th and was like WTF! Now we need Milwaukee and St. Louis to slow down a bit.

 

[Ski Hawk]

[quote name='Chitown021']The Cubs tried to give the game away today... When I went to lunch I checked the score and saw we were up 7-0, on my way home I checked the score and saw 8-8 in the 11th and was like WTF! Now we need Milwaukee and St. Louis to slow down a bit.[/quote]
Good to see another fellow Cubs fan on the board.

A win is a win, but it makes me worry about Lilly a bit. It also makes me anxious when the Cubs either tie the game or take the lead. We have a natural talent of giving up runs right after we score.

 

[Chitown021]

[quote name='Ski Hawk']Good to see another fellow Cubs fan on the board.

A win is a win, but it makes me worry about Lilly a bit. It also makes me anxious when the Cubs either tie the game or take the lead. We have a natural talent of giving up runs right after we score.[/quote]


I agree. After that 1-3 start it's nice to see we've been able to bounce back to above .500

Yeah, WTF is up with the team giving up runs as soon as we score? Like Saturday against Houston: Down 5-2 we have a huge inning, take the lead 8-5, and the very next inning give back 2 runs.

 

[Ski Hawk]

More examples:
-Game 2 NLDS (Soto HR, Lilly gives up lead in bottom of inning)
-top 10 game 1 Brewers
-Last two games against Astros
-Today against Pittsburgh

I wish our starters could be a bit more consistant (although Zambrano has been doing well so far).

 

[craven_fiend]

Hopefully Boston can turn it on at home. Tigers and Yankees should help them get clicking.

Good to see Matsuzaka pitching well for the 2nd straight game.

Edit: Someone stop the Orioles. For a team I thought was on the rebound, they are firing on all cylinders right now.

 

[dafoomie]

Matsuzaka: 6.2IP, 0ER, 7K.

I'm telling you, when he trusts his fastball as an out pitch as he does now, he's extremely effective. He's finally got that Japanese pitching philosophy out of his head.

 

[Arikado]

[quote name='craven_fiend']Edit: Someone stop the Orioles. For a team I thought was on the rebound, they are firing on all cylinders right now.[/QUOTE]

I was at the game. It's so painful being a Ranger fan.