The beauty of capitalism in pictures.

[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I want to save the thread 100 responses. What is your point?[/QUOTE]
Starting a 1,000 post thread on CAG is on my bucket list. You hold it right there mister.

Dude's crazy. Like whoa. Bhopal was many things, but an accident isn't one of them. Res ipsa loquitur, son.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']It was World War II. Sorry. You're not going to get too far here.[/QUOTE]

Oh, War makes everything better.

You know, Bin Laden had said for years that he was at war with the US. I guess his killing of thousands of innocents was okay too.

[quote name='speedracer']Starting a 1,000 post thread on CAG is on my bucket list. You hold it right there mister.

Dude's crazy. Like whoa. Bhopal was many things, but an accident isn't one of them. Res ipsa loquitur, son.[/QUOTE]

Don't get me wrong - I'm amazed no one has been prosecuted for those events. It's like a car accident though - just because someone is negligent, it doesn't mean they meant to do it. The events at Bhopal were a series of events that cumulative into something horrible, but no one planned for that. No one actively said "Hey, let's not do this maintenance so that one day, this, this and this will happen and we'll kill thousands!"

On the other hand, How much planning and forethought went into killing thousands of innocents and Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Don't get me wrong - I'm amazed no one has been prosecuted for those events. It's like a car accident though - just because someone is negligent, it doesn't mean they meant to do it. The events at Bhopal were a series of events that cumulative into something horrible, but no one planned for that. No one actively said "Hey, let's not do this maintenance so that one day, this, this and this will happen and we'll kill thousands!"[/quote]
Bhopal is not like a car accident. When you are using chemicals of the kind that can kill tens of thousands of people without proper care and then willfully and intentionally not care for them, it goes beyond simple negligence.
On the other hand, How much planning and forethought went into killing thousands of innocents and Hiroshima and Nagasaki?
Click to expand...
Your line of reasoning comparing Bhopal to WWII is absurd. Chemical handling = total warfare? I mean, what? Huh? FoC and I are trying to entertain your ideas here. What's the major arc of your thought? What's the main statement? I can't draw a rational thread from your posts here. I'm genuinely curious what the major point is you're saying. I don't get it. Your analogies only make your posts harder to understand.
 
So if a private company accidentally nuked Japan last Tuesday due to negligence rather than the US nuking them during WWII on purpose it would have been better? Or are you trying to say they're equal?
 
[quote name='speedracer']Bhopal is not like a car accident. When you are using chemicals of the kind that can kill tens of thousands of people without proper care and then willfully and intentionally not care for them, it goes beyond simple negligence. [/quote]

I'm agreeing with you. Except that it was still an accident. I'm not saying that removes any of the liability for those responsible. Just that it was an accident.

Your line of reasoning comparing Bhopal to WWII is absurd. Chemical handling = total warfare? I mean, what? Huh? FoC and I are trying to entertain your ideas here. What's the major arc of your thought? What's the main statement? I can't draw a rational thread from your posts here. I'm genuinely curious what the major point is you're saying. I don't get it. Your analogies only make your posts harder to understand.
Click to expand...

Sorry, I just don't think "total warfare" excuses killing thousands upon thousands of innocents.

Again, my point is the same as Myke's. Myke says "Look what this large, unchecked company did that lead to the deaths of thousands of innocents." I say "Look what this large, unchecked government did that lead to the deaths of thousands of innocents."

If you can excuse what the government did because it was war, then, I suppose, more power to you. I just can't wipe away an action that indiscriminately kills thousands of innocents so easily.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Again, my point is the same as Myke's. Myke says "Look what this large, unchecked company did that lead to the deaths of thousands of innocents." I say "Look what this large, unchecked government did that lead to the deaths of thousands of innocents."[/QUOTE]

I don't understand what you're saying then. Nobody advocates an unchecked government, that's the point of voting and representation (in this country).

But private industry is apparently supposed to do whatever is necessary to profit, best unhindered by government regulations. That's at least part of the point of the thread.

So you want these companies to be checked and regulated right?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Again, my point is the same as Myke's. Myke says "Look what this large, unchecked company did that lead to the deaths of thousands of innocents." I say "Look what this large, unchecked government did that lead to the deaths of thousands of innocents."[/QUOTE]

If you have to state it twice, it's not the same point.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I thought you were done with me? Did you change your mind?[/QUOTE]

Yes. I did change my mind. I want you to move to Somalia so you can stop bitching about the American government taking your money by gunpoint.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Yes. I did change my mind. I want you to move to Somalia so you can stop bitching about the American government taking your money by gunpoint.[/QUOTE]

042109-1757-cartmanlaun1.png


With a yo ho ho (yo ho ho)
And a tricky lah-tee do (tricky lah-tee do)
Well shoot you in the face with glee
Then well cut off your cock
And feed it to a croc
Somalian pirates we

Somalian pirates we
Somalian pirates we
 
Nice South Park reference, troy.

But it's not the government. That's my point. If you buy enough guns and amass enough cohorts in Somalia, no one can take anything. In fact, you can become your own government and rape and pillage to heart's delight. It's a conservative's wet dream.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']Which emoticon is more appropriate?

:wall:, :roll: or #-o[/QUOTE]

I suppose the classic is as good as any emoticon:

original
 
Okay, let's scale this down a little and see if it clicks.

Man and wife have some friends over. He's got his buddies in the garage and showing them his new shotgun. It's loaded. The safety is off. He's swinging it around like a moron. His wife peeks in the garage to see if anyone wants a beer - spooks her husband, who shoots her square in the chest. Everyone freaks out. In the panic, man bumps into a small gas container that's missing its lid, knocks it over, spills gas everywhere. Ashes fall from his cigarette. Sets the house on fire. 20 people killed - The man is the only survivor.

Meanwhile, two states away, man finds out his girlfriend is cheating on him. They have a fight and break up. She comes over one day while he's at work, steals a bunch of his stuff, kills his dog by feeding it rat poison, and drives his car into the side of his house. He decides to take things into his own hands. Plots out a timeline. Buys a shotgun just for the event. Buys some gas and a lighter. Goes over to his girlfriend's house while she's entertaining a bunch of guests. Shoots her, square in the chest. Tells her friends "This is what you get for being friends with a cheating bitch!", traps them in the house, pours the gas around and lights it on fire. 40 people are dead.

One of these men is an idiot - a series of stupid mistakes lead to a really horrible accident. He's still guilty, no doubt.

Second guy got pissed. Went and, purposely and willfully, killed the person he was pissed at. Then, killed a bunch of totally innocent people, for no other reason than they were in the wrong place at the wrong time.

Do you give both men the same punishment?

[quote name='SpazX']So you want these companies to be checked and regulated right?[/QUOTE]

Of course.

If a company wants to spew toxic chemicals into the air, they better make damn sure they don't spill over onto my private property or onto publicly owned property. If they do, I, or my family, should be allowed to sue for damages. The people responsible should be held accountable.

As for voting, we've already discussed that. Either the masses get tyranny over the minority or the minority manipulates the politicians to screw over the masses. I like the voting concept as much as the next guy, but so long as we have the idiots running things the way we have now, nothing is going to change.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']
Man and wife have some friends over. He's got his buddies in the garage and showing them his new shotgun. It's loaded. The safety is off. He's swinging it around like a moron. His wife peeks in the garage to see if anyone wants a beer - spooks her husband, who shoots her square in the chest. Everyone freaks out. In the panic, man bumps into a small gas container that's missing its lid, knocks it over, spills gas everywhere. Ashes fall from his cigarette. Sets the house on fire. 20 people killed - The man is the only survivor.
[/QUOTE]

Bart: Great story Grampa, could've used a vampire though. 'Night.

Do you give both men the same punishment?
Click to expand...

No. That's why we have manslaughter versus first/second/third degrees of murder. Also at any time one['s lawyer] could make the argument that he is insane, and thus incapable of determining right from wrong. Or that he was carrying out God's Will (note the capitals), because God - in all his infinite wisdom, glory, and omnipotence, creator of worlds ever infinite - thought to himself "Man, I could really use someone to talk with right about now."

Now I'm no lawyer, so if I'm wrong, please anyone let me know.

I imagine this is your point though, and ties into how Walmart can rape and pillage third world countries for slave labor children to work in poisonous factories just so my redneck neighbors can by their kid another useless piece of plastic shaped like a John Deere tractor, versus throwing a guy who got caught with weed gets a long stay in the stony lonesome because of bullshit.
 
[quote name='Strell']No. That's why we have manslaughter versus first/second/third degrees of murder.[/quote]

So we agree, killing thousands of innocents with the intent of killing thousands of innocents is worse than accidentally killing thousands of innocents through negligence?

I imagine this is your point though, and ties into how Walmart can rape and pillage third world countries for slave labor children to work in poisonous factories just so my redneck neighbors can by their kid another useless piece of plastic shaped like a John Deere tractor, versus throwing a guy who got caught with weed gets a long stay in the stony lonesome because of bullshit.
Click to expand...

A) Not sure of the point here - I've mentioned more than once that I'm pretty much for legalizing drugs. I don't give two poops what you do to your body.

B) I wasn't aware Walmart had factories. Thought they had stores.

C) If you have a moral qualm with the actions of Walmart - or any other private company - you can stop giving them money at any time (short of when politicians give them your tax dollars - which they shouldn't). If you have a moral qualm with the actions of your government, though shit - give them your money anyway. There's derm terrorists to be killed!
 
I shall entertain this madness.

What would have been necessary to prevent the Khopal accident and what would have been necessary to end World War II without Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

For extra credit, what would have been necessary to prevent World War II?

I leave you with google.

EDIT: I had the strange thought that WWII was caused by capitalism, but I haven't researched it to determine if that was a random thought or an epiphany.
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I shall entertain this madness.

What would have been necessary to prevent the Khopal accident and what would have been necessary to end World War II without Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

For extra credit, what would have been necessary to prevent World War II?

I leave you with google.

EDIT: I had the strange thought that WWII was caused by capitalism, but I haven't researched it to determine if that was a random thought or an epiphany.[/QUOTE]
Well if Germany hadn't been fucked over after WW1 that probably would have went a long way to preventing it. The only reason Hitler came to power was because he promised the Germans a better future, he gave them hope of restoring Germany to it's former glory so to speak.

Germany was basically bent over backwards after WW1 so far as what they forced to agree to. It was only a matter of time before someone like Hitler decided that they were getting screwed.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']So we agree, killing thousands of innocents with the intent of killing thousands of innocents is worse than accidentally killing thousands of innocents through negligence?[/quote]

I didn't say that. The law appreciates a difference because they have to, in order that proper justice be enacted.

Some people think murder is murder. Some people think abortion is murder. Some people think abortion isn't murder. Some people think a war with another country who didn't even attack us is totally justified.

And so on, so on. There's nothing absolute about it, and you increase the chance of disagreement the more people you pack into a room.

If you want to talk about pure motive, even that gets into hazy territory. So there's no way to distill this down into pure points, because there's always going to be differing opinions.

Points A-C
Click to expand...

I'm honestly lost at what is being discussed anymore, so eh.

[quote name='JolietJake']How could you keep air pollution from spilling over onto your property? Short of living in an air filtered bubble.[/QUOTE]

"We have men, we have rockets, we have saran wrap....FIX IT!"

Oh Lewis Black, how great thou art.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Of course.

If a company wants to spew toxic chemicals into the air, they better make damn sure they don't spill over onto my private property or onto publicly owned property. If they do, I, or my family, should be allowed to sue for damages. The people responsible should be held accountable.

As for voting, we've already discussed that. Either the masses get tyranny over the minority or the minority manipulates the politicians to screw over the masses. I like the voting concept as much as the next guy, but so long as we have the idiots running things the way we have now, nothing is going to change.[/QUOTE]

That's not really regulating, that's saying "hey don't do that" and then after it happens letting the family of the deceased have some of your money. Regulating would be actually having somebody see if they're doing it right.

Now if you want to get into murder vs. negligent manslaughter as legal definitions and then compare that to war then you're going to get fucked since war is also treated differently legally.

If you want to argue it morally then you're also going to have to separate out things that are out of control and things that were controllable, but weren't because the company wanted more profits.

Like - is it murder only if I shot you, or is it also murder if you got shot and I watched you die while I was completely capable of helping you, or perhaps I set up the conditions under which you were shot, but didn't myself pull the trigger.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Do you give both men the same punishment?[/quote]

Cesare Beccaria thought of all this a century and a half before you - and plenty of people criticized his ideas for their naively idealistic over-simplicity - not to mention the folly of trying to apply linear mathematical equations to nothing more than the outcomes of human behavior.

Years ago, an acquaintance of mine was driving on an interstate bridge between states - a man who had evidently been running in interstate traffic for a while (such that it had been reported to police already) jumped out in front of his car. He was hit by the car, and knocked over the bridge. He did not live.

Based on the consequences of his actions, and not motive, opportunity, etc., he should be treated the same as someone who was slowly, deliberately tortured to death because of a personal vendetta, or because of a business decision, or because of an affair, or whatever.

The ends are the ends, and that's all they are.

You really need to spend some time looking at this website and rethink your worldview:

burnt-mouth-hot-pocket-microwave.jpg


www.hoekstraisameme.com
 
[quote name='fatherofcaitlyn']I shall entertain this madness.

What would have been necessary to prevent the Khopal accident and what would have been necessary to end World War II without Hiroshima and Nagasaki?

For extra credit, what would have been necessary to prevent World War II?

I leave you with google.

EDIT: I had the strange thought that WWII was caused by capitalism, but I haven't researched it to determine if that was a random thought or an epiphany.[/QUOTE]

More like rampant nationalism, the sting of WWI (in Germany's case) and the Sino-Russian war (in Japan's case), and a small dose of capitalism.
 
[quote name='JolietJake']Well if Germany hadn't been fucked over after WW1 that probably would have went a long way to preventing it. The only reason Hitler came to power was because he promised the Germans a better future, he gave them hope of restoring Germany to it's former glory so to speak.

Germany was basically bent over backwards after WW1 so far as what they forced to agree to. It was only a matter of time before someone like Hitler decided that they were getting screwed.[/QUOTE]

Interesting what happens when someone with a charismatic manner about them gets political power and gets the poor citizenry all worked up against those who have "wronged" them...
 
Why is there all this incessant need to argue on behalf of corporations? What have they done to warrant this kind of thing, in light of the atrocities the American public has suffered at their hands in recent years? Yeah yeah, I could be a jerk and say "it's always been like that" and start citing some of the shit that's gone down in history, but I'm talking about now, in the wake of the banking fallout, Enron, etc.

I see a good amount of babble on here from people protecting them like they absolutely need this kind of support. They are big boys - they could hire lawyers to find people like me and sue my ass into oblivion if they really wanted.

But this is besides the point - I just don't get it. There's clear evidence NONE of these companies give the tiniest shit about their legions of chipmunks. They'll shut down branches and then give themselves giant bonuses, outsource offshore (which not only hurts their employees, but in a rare double whammy decision, also their entire customer base), fly to judicial hearings in private jets, etc etc. There's absolutely no regard for anyone but themselves.

Then they have an entire legal bulwark to actively seek out and harm the public in order to safeguard their own greed, since it's very much a scratch-my-back-and-I'll-yours culture they've infrastructure'd up over there, and yet still there's this undercurrent in the working class that "hey, they aren't doing anything wrong other than having some coin."

I just don't get it. We've reached god tier levels of bullshit from Wall Street, our balls in a gigantic phantasm vice grip being controlled by a few fat old white men, and yet even with the level of pain being placed right on our balls, there's people clamoring thankyousirmayIhaveanother.

I mean it would be one thing if I could find all these rainbows people are telling me exist, rather than waking up to "company fires a few thousand employees, CEO remarks 'CAN'T YOU SEE I'M PLAYING GOLF RIGHT NOW?'"

It's like a TheOnion gag at this point. I can see them writing an article like "Company CEO not a total fuckbag - only buys self two cars after firing ten thousand employees."
 
[quote name='Strell']But this is besides the point - I just don't get it. There's clear evidence NONE of these companies give the tiniest shit about their legions of chipmunks. They'll shut down branches and then give themselves giant bonuses, outsource offshore (which not only hurts their employees, but in a rare double whammy decision, also their entire customer base), fly to judicial hearings in private jets, etc etc. There's absolutely no regard for anyone but themselves.[/QUOTE]

I guess that's the part that gets me. UB works at Walmart - you'd think his vantage point would give him multiple opportunities to see this.

[quote name='thrustbucket']Strell what you are saying is true, and is further proof that we don't practice capitalism. We practice corporatocracy.[/QUOTE]

Agree 100%
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Strell what you are saying is true, and is further proof that we don't practice capitalism. We practice corporatocracy.[/QUOTE]

I agree. But I'd argue that corpratocracy is the inevitable out come of free market capitalism.

Even with anti-trust regulations etc. we ended up with this corporate system. Imagine who bad it was if there were no regulations and we had even more monopolies etc.

Free markets lead to companies doing everything they can to grow as big as possible and make as much money for the higher ups in the corporations as possible. End result is doing everything they can to kill the competition and pay their workers as little as possible.
 
Yeah, screw all those big, bad corporations. The man's been keeping me down my entire life. Shit, I've been denied a 50" screen TV until just last year. My PS3 can't even make me breakfast, either. Hell, that thing only plays useless HD movies, not nearly enough to entertain me 24/7. Those fucking Jap bastards. They probably even make little chinese children assemble those ferrign game boxes and outsource all that monies to north korea or sumthin.

Come to think of it, that dang car company screwed me out of $25k last year, too. They should have given me that car since I needed it to get to work. And shit, I paid almost $6500 on groceries alone last year to some major, regional grocery conglomeration. My kids NEEDED that food to survive, so they should have just given it to me for free. Or, at least, you assholes who spend all your money on videogames should have been forced to help me pay for it. It's for the children for god's sake. Why don't you care about the CHILDREN ?

Speaking of which, my kid's going to need to go to college in 10 years. I say you freeloaders need to start ponying up for tuition. After all, what's yours is mine. And my kid needs schooling a heck of a lot more than you need a new 360, or copy of Modern Warfare.

I love egg nog.
 
Really? Did you read one thing that Strell wrote?

You know what? If they raised taxes and gave everyone free tuition at state universities, I'd be all about it. I might not be able to afford a new 360 but I'd sacrifice that to give the next generation a decent education. What exactly are you arguing about again?
 
[quote name='bmulligan']endless trove of bullshit[/QUOTE]

Yar matey, they dinna call him Brownbeard for nuthin', arrrr.
 
[quote name='Strell']Yar matey, they dinna call him Brownbeard for nuthin', arrrr.[/QUOTE]

Watch it, Strell. Some people here like to run to the mods and bitch about personal attacks.
 
You say that like it's a bad thing... Are the mods supposed to turn a blind
eye to obvious flaming and personal attacks? Perhaps if the offending
posters could actually reply about the subject at hand instead of resorting
to name calling and insults, the mods wouldn't have to babysit a select
handful of posters who think they're above the rules.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']You say that like it's a bad thing... Are the mods supposed to turn a blind
eye to obvious flaming and personal attacks? Perhaps if the offending
posters could actually reply about the subject at hand instead of resorting
to name calling and insults, the mods wouldn't have to babysit a select
handful of posters who think they're above the rules.[/QUOTE]

I didn't know you couldn't handle some bad words. My apologies if your precious feelings were hurt.

I wish I was silly enough to think I could dance around a subject with stupid metaphors and ridiculous allegories and then run to the mods when people called me out for being a retard.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Really? Did you read one thing that Strell wrote?

You know what? If they raised taxes and gave everyone free tuition at state universities, I'd be all about it. I might not be able to afford a new 360 but I'd sacrifice that to give the next generation a decent education. What exactly are you arguing about again?[/QUOTE]

I already pay local taxes to send other people's kids to grammer and high school, why must I now pay more money to send people through college? I paid 30K out of my pocket to go through college. Must I also be taxed to pay for a minimum of a 3 bedroom house and at least one weeks vacation to a tropical island for everyone? Why don't we tax the 48% of the country that like the job that Obama is doing, or maybe the 20% of those that like what Congress is doing. What ever happened to earning your way like the early immigrants? And how do the universities handle the sudden influx of all these extra students? Most universities and class sizes are full and they turn people away. How do we educate and insurance all these extra people without the loss of quality that we received as paying customers?

Most places I've worked for offered tuition reimbursement or you could work and do night classes. What is with the liberal sense of entitlement that they are owed things that they do not have to work for? How about we get taxed less and have more control over the money we earn? Wouldn't that be a good idea? To many questions for you?

What you are proposing, raising taxes to cover the expenses of those that can not or will not pay for it themselves sounds like socialism and everybody older than 13 knows that socialism doesn't work and will never happen in America.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']I already pay local taxes to send other people's kids to grammer and high school, why must I now pay more money to send people through college? I paid 30K out of my pocket to go through college. Must I also be taxed to pay for a minimum of a 3 bedroom house and at least one weeks vacation to a tropical island for everyone? Why don't we tax the 48% of the country that like the job that Obama is doing, or maybe the 20% of those that like what Congress is doing. What ever happened to earning your way like the early immigrants? And how do the universities handle the sudden influx of all these extra students? Most universities and class sizes are full and they turn people away. How do we educate and insurance all these extra people without the loss of quality that we received as paying customers?

Most places I've worked for offered tuition reimbursement or you could work and do night classes. What is with the liberal sense of entitlement that they are owed things that they do not have to work for? How about we get taxed less and have more control over the money we earn? Wouldn't that be a good idea? To many questions for you?

What you are proposing, raising taxes to cover the expenses of those that can not or will not pay for it themselves sounds like socialism and everybody older than 13 knows that socialism doesn't work and will never happen in America.[/QUOTE]
You're right, socialism does not exist in America and never will.

Thank god almighty that those evil socialist ideas never caught on here.

/typical American
 
[quote name='JolietJake']You're right, socialism does not exist in America and never will.

Thank god almighty that those evil socialist ideas never caught on here.

/typical American[/QUOTE]

Heh, typical commie.
 
[quote name='jputahraptor']socialism doesn't work and will never happen in America.[/QUOTE]

Well, you got the first part at least mostly right. Shame about the second...were you asleep for the past couple years?
 
[quote name='elprincipe']Well, you got the first part at least mostly right. Shame about the second...were you asleep for the past couple years?[/QUOTE]

We're no where near socialism. Have you seen Wall Street, big businesses, and small businesses? They are all still viciously competing with one another. If we had a socialist country, CAG wouldn't be around because the the government would set the price for every game and it wouldn't change.
 
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