You know I was listening to NPR a while back and they were asking economists what, in their opinion, we really need to do fiscally/tax wise. One suggestion that was made, though sure to be unpopular, was removing the mortgage interest deduction. They're reasoning was that i doesn't really benefit most people all that much, but helps those buying large expensive houses much more.
The Fiscal Cliff
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mykevermin
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[quote name='Clak']You know I was listening to NPR a while back and they were asking economists what, in their opinion, we really need to do fiscally/tax wise. One suggestion that was made, though sure to be unpopular, was removing the mortgage interest deduction. They're reasoning was that i doesn't really benefit most people all that much, but helps those buying large expensive houses much more.[/QUOTE]
I've heard a variant of that, which is to "flatten" it or cap it. The rationale being that a person who buys a $500K house shouldn't benefit more than someone who buys a $120K house.
I live in a very strange parcel of land where new construction is so omnipresent as to be aggravating and home prices have risen
ing absurdly in the past 5 years. I'm confident I could easily sell my home for 25% over what I paid for it under 2 years ago today. That shouldn't really influence the size of a tax deduction.
The mortgage interest deduction is a contentious thing to remove, as some economists argue it'll pop a small bubble in home prices (they'd deflate somewhat). I benefit from it, as do all homeowners. But I'd give it up - *only* if marginal tax rates on the $250K+ earners exceeded 45%, and capital gains taxes matches income tax rates.
You want to take from the middle class, you better give the middle class a good deal more than "Clinton-era tax rates."
I've heard a variant of that, which is to "flatten" it or cap it. The rationale being that a person who buys a $500K house shouldn't benefit more than someone who buys a $120K house.
I live in a very strange parcel of land where new construction is so omnipresent as to be aggravating and home prices have risen
ing absurdly in the past 5 years. I'm confident I could easily sell my home for 25% over what I paid for it under 2 years ago today. That shouldn't really influence the size of a tax deduction.The mortgage interest deduction is a contentious thing to remove, as some economists argue it'll pop a small bubble in home prices (they'd deflate somewhat). I benefit from it, as do all homeowners. But I'd give it up - *only* if marginal tax rates on the $250K+ earners exceeded 45%, and capital gains taxes matches income tax rates.
You want to take from the middle class, you better give the middle class a good deal more than "Clinton-era tax rates."
I grasp the percentages just fine. Taking 39%, yet alone whatever crazy number it works out to with other state and local taxes, is crazy. Just because someone is successful doesn't give us the right to more of their money. I know you guys hate "principles", but my stance is that taking by force and threat of imprisonment is wrong. If you guys really think that rich people are using that much more in government services, ie their "fair share", then institute the fair tax. Tolls on roads, higher taxes on luxury goods, collection of taxes based on what you truly use and buy. (Not to mention it captures taxes on all the drug and under the table income). It also simplifies the tax code and eliminates all loop holes. The "black market" is the only real difficulty I see in containing. "Fair share" is a broad and general term that is effective in whipping the uninformed members of the Democratic party into a frenzy. I'm not against taxes, just insane and tyrannical rates that are only "necessary" because of the waste and inefficiencies of our government.
Do away with the interest, earned income, and any child deductions. I'd for go any deductions for a fair and simple system.
"The 2010 United States federal budget spent $52.7 billion out of $3.55 trillion (1.5%) on foreign aid. $15.0 billion was military; $37.7 billion was economic aid (of which USAID received $14.1 billion).[1]" Are you saying that it is too small of a percentage to make a difference? I disagree. Every .42 cent of a dollar that we are spending is "borrowed" right now. Take that 37.7 billion and use it here, where the citizens who "donated" it live and will gain benefit. Many cuts in unnecessary and bloated programs will add up. I also think anyone that doesn't see our debt as a crisis is deluding themselves. "The top reserve currency is generally selected by the banking community for the strength and stability of the economy in which it is used. Thus, as a currency becomes less stable, or its economy becomes less dominant, bankers may over time abandon it for a currency issued by a larger or more stable economy. This can take a relatively long time, as recognition is important in determining a reserve currency. For example, it took many years after the United States overtook the United Kingdom as the world's largest economy before the dollar overtook Sterling as the dominant global reserve currency.[8] Schenk has shown in her 2009 study that in 1944 (Bretton Woods) the US dollar was chosen as the world reference currency whereas it was only the second currency in global reserves.[8]" See how well "just printing more money" works if we lose this status. Two downgrades done, what's next? We need to make our financial solvency a major issue.
Do away with the interest, earned income, and any child deductions. I'd for go any deductions for a fair and simple system.
"The 2010 United States federal budget spent $52.7 billion out of $3.55 trillion (1.5%) on foreign aid. $15.0 billion was military; $37.7 billion was economic aid (of which USAID received $14.1 billion).[1]" Are you saying that it is too small of a percentage to make a difference? I disagree. Every .42 cent of a dollar that we are spending is "borrowed" right now. Take that 37.7 billion and use it here, where the citizens who "donated" it live and will gain benefit. Many cuts in unnecessary and bloated programs will add up. I also think anyone that doesn't see our debt as a crisis is deluding themselves. "The top reserve currency is generally selected by the banking community for the strength and stability of the economy in which it is used. Thus, as a currency becomes less stable, or its economy becomes less dominant, bankers may over time abandon it for a currency issued by a larger or more stable economy. This can take a relatively long time, as recognition is important in determining a reserve currency. For example, it took many years after the United States overtook the United Kingdom as the world's largest economy before the dollar overtook Sterling as the dominant global reserve currency.[8] Schenk has shown in her 2009 study that in 1944 (Bretton Woods) the US dollar was chosen as the world reference currency whereas it was only the second currency in global reserves.[8]" See how well "just printing more money" works if we lose this status. Two downgrades done, what's next? We need to make our financial solvency a major issue.
We'll never have nice things in this country as people are greedy selfish s and not willing to pay for it.
So we have shitty roads, god awful often not worth bothering with public transit (I'd killl for a high speed rail system), pathetic internet speeds that way pay more for vs. other countries, a terrible health care/health insurance system and on down the line. Along with all the shitty elements of our culture--terrible food, obesity, anti-intellectualism, raging consumerism, idolization of celebrities and athletes etc.
I'm not so sure why people are so pro-USA. Lot's of other countries that do a lot of things better and I'd be gone in a second if/when I can work out career and language barrier issues.
s and not willing to pay for it.So we have shitty roads, god awful often not worth bothering with public transit (I'd killl for a high speed rail system), pathetic internet speeds that way pay more for vs. other countries, a terrible health care/health insurance system and on down the line. Along with all the shitty elements of our culture--terrible food, obesity, anti-intellectualism, raging consumerism, idolization of celebrities and athletes etc.
I'm not so sure why people are so pro-USA. Lot's of other countries that do a lot of things better and I'd be gone in a second if/when I can work out career and language barrier issues.
mykevermin
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[quote name='egofed']I grasp the percentages just fine.[/quote]
Good to know. I look forward to a sensible, intellectual, precise discussion of tax policy from you, then.
Good to know. I look forward to a sensible, intellectual, precise discussion of tax policy from you, then.
Here, I'll even explain the system to end this idiocy.
With the current tax brackets your income gets taxed as follows:
First $8,700 gets taxed at 10%
$8,701 to $35,350 gets taxed at 15%
$35,351 to $85,650 gets taxed at 25%
$86,651 to $178,650 gets taxed at 28%
$178,651 to $388,350 gets taxed at 30%
$388,351 gets taxed at 35%
No one gets all their income taxed at one rate unless they make under $8,701 and only pay 10%. You don't just pay taxes on ALL your income at your top rate. A rich person only pays the 35% on each dollar they make over $388,350 currently, not on dollars they made before hitting that amount.
As for how much revenue letting the tax cuts expire would bring in, I don't see an official estimate on how much it would be to them expire for everyone, but the CBO estimates that letting them expire for those making over $250k would bring in around $1 trillion over the next 10 years.
http://www.offthechartsblog.org/cbo-ending-high-income-tax-cuts-would-save-almost-1-trillion/
Edit, looks like letting them all expire would bring in $3.8 trillion over the next decade.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/opinion/sunday/the-truth-about-taxes.html
With the current tax brackets your income gets taxed as follows:
First $8,700 gets taxed at 10%
$8,701 to $35,350 gets taxed at 15%
$35,351 to $85,650 gets taxed at 25%
$86,651 to $178,650 gets taxed at 28%
$178,651 to $388,350 gets taxed at 30%
$388,351 gets taxed at 35%
No one gets all their income taxed at one rate unless they make under $8,701 and only pay 10%. You don't just pay taxes on ALL your income at your top rate. A rich person only pays the 35% on each dollar they make over $388,350 currently, not on dollars they made before hitting that amount.
As for how much revenue letting the tax cuts expire would bring in, I don't see an official estimate on how much it would be to them expire for everyone, but the CBO estimates that letting them expire for those making over $250k would bring in around $1 trillion over the next 10 years.
http://www.offthechartsblog.org/cbo-ending-high-income-tax-cuts-would-save-almost-1-trillion/
Edit, looks like letting them all expire would bring in $3.8 trillion over the next decade.
http://www.nytimes.com/2011/08/07/opinion/sunday/the-truth-about-taxes.html
speedracer
Banned
You know that in America, you aren't required to get a license or permit to move, right? That each locality, county, and state can set their own laws and that you can choose whichever you like best? I just want to make sure you're not being held at gunpoint somewhere.
[quote name='egofed']I grasp the percentages just fine. Taking 39%, yet alone whatever crazy number it works out to with other state and local taxes, is crazy.[/quote]
You *do* realize that your community chooses its own taxation level via representation and bond votes, correct?
Also, what's a state income tax? Never hurd of it. Must be some liberal pansy thing. *spits*
/Texan
As my grandfather would say, you know what you call that? Dumb.
/Texan
[quote name='egofed']I grasp the percentages just fine. Taking 39%, yet alone whatever crazy number it works out to with other state and local taxes, is crazy.[/quote]
You *do* realize that your community chooses its own taxation level via representation and bond votes, correct?
Also, what's a state income tax? Never hurd of it. Must be some liberal pansy thing. *spits*
/Texan
Help! I'm being oppressed by choosing to live where I do!
We do have toll roads. We do have higher taxes on luxury goods. We do have a collection of taxes based on what you truly use and buy. Are you choosing to live somewhere where they don't do that?
As my grandfather would say, you know what you call that? Dumb.
/Texan
I would be swayed by your argument if you were to give it some historical context. Are our taxes at an insane level relative to our, I dunno, say, last century of taxation levels? I'm ready to be convinced. Convince me.
Huh. Is it weird that you only listed deductions that predominantly benefit the middle class? That seems weird to me. What should I infer from that?
Trancendental
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What American doesn't love money, and now the rich are going to have to pony up more to the govt. Of course Javery and his friends don't like it. To answer his question, yeah it makes sense, just like I don't like paying taxes on internet sales. Difference being I know it's the right thing to do so I don't really blame the govt for taking their fair cut of the transaction.
What I'll never get is why a fireman and a wally world assistant manager care so much. You guys will always be poor, guys like Javery will never, ever, ever, ever care about your situation, he just wants the money. Javery himself posted some dumb video where a redneck was throwing around hundreds as his reason for opposing the expiration of Dubya tax cuts.
What I'll never get is why a fireman and a wally world assistant manager care so much. You guys will always be poor, guys like Javery will never, ever, ever, ever care about your situation, he just wants the money. Javery himself posted some dumb video where a redneck was throwing around hundreds as his reason for opposing the expiration of Dubya tax cuts.
I care because right is right and wrong is wrong. Just because something makes sense to you, does not make it morally just. Javery shouldn't have to care about my situation. True freedom allows you to be a major dick if you want to be.;-) I do understand the progressive tax system, thank you very much. Taking 35% or 39% of any income should be criminal. We do have usury laws, too bad they do not apply to the government. The fair tax that I support does away with all income tax, speedracer. You get all of your income, and pay a higher tax on what you choose to purchase. As far as past taxation rates, old wrongs should be used as examples for the future? We do have a spending problem and a revenue problem. Too many people pay no income tax in our current system but still get to vote.
[quote name='mykevermin']I've heard a variant of that, which is to "flatten" it or cap it. The rationale being that a person who buys a $500K house shouldn't benefit more than someone who buys a $120K house.
I live in a very strange parcel of land where new construction is so omnipresent as to be aggravating and home prices have risening absurdly in the past 5 years. I'm confident I could easily sell my home for 25% over what I paid for it under 2 years ago today. That shouldn't really influence the size of a tax deduction.
The mortgage interest deduction is a contentious thing to remove, as some economists argue it'll pop a small bubble in home prices (they'd deflate somewhat). I benefit from it, as do all homeowners. But I'd give it up - *only* if marginal tax rates on the $250K+ earners exceeded 45%, and capital gains taxes matches income tax rates.
You want to take from the middle class, you better give the middle class a good deal more than "Clinton-era tax rates."[/QUOTE]
That was basically their rationale, that the the biggest benefit is garnered by those buying the McMansions rather than what you or I could afford.I'd say cap it personally, it is of some benefit to the middle class, but it's nauseating to think how much some people get to deduct. If nothing else it might make buying those huge homes a little less attractive.
I live in a very strange parcel of land where new construction is so omnipresent as to be aggravating and home prices have risen
ing absurdly in the past 5 years. I'm confident I could easily sell my home for 25% over what I paid for it under 2 years ago today. That shouldn't really influence the size of a tax deduction.The mortgage interest deduction is a contentious thing to remove, as some economists argue it'll pop a small bubble in home prices (they'd deflate somewhat). I benefit from it, as do all homeowners. But I'd give it up - *only* if marginal tax rates on the $250K+ earners exceeded 45%, and capital gains taxes matches income tax rates.
You want to take from the middle class, you better give the middle class a good deal more than "Clinton-era tax rates."[/QUOTE]
That was basically their rationale, that the the biggest benefit is garnered by those buying the McMansions rather than what you or I could afford.I'd say cap it personally, it is of some benefit to the middle class, but it's nauseating to think how much some people get to deduct. If nothing else it might make buying those huge homes a little less attractive.
Honestly, I do think they should just get rid of deductions period. It just makes things too complicated. Drop all these deductions and lower each bracket's rate some to compensate so people (especially in the lower and middle brackets) aren't paying more.
Get rid of tax returns and the racket business around them. End of year just fill out a form based on your W2 income and any other income you had and pay any taxes from income that didn't have taxes withheld by an employer.
But that will never happen. So yeah, best we can hope for is capping things like mortgage interest deductions at some amount so the wealthy don't benefit more from it than the average Joe. Someone buying huge, expensive houses doesn't need the break.
Get rid of tax returns and the racket business around them. End of year just fill out a form based on your W2 income and any other income you had and pay any taxes from income that didn't have taxes withheld by an employer.
But that will never happen. So yeah, best we can hope for is capping things like mortgage interest deductions at some amount so the wealthy don't benefit more from it than the average Joe. Someone buying huge, expensive houses doesn't need the break.
Trancendental
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[quote name='egofed']I care because right is right and wrong is wrong. Just because something makes sense to you, does not make it morally just. Javery shouldn't have to care about my situation.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but why do you care so hard? Why is this so important to you, moreso over issues of social justice involving people who are truly hurting (whether they be starving, beaten, or worse)
Why are you so concerned with Javery's plight, is the economic situation that rosy for your own family that you can afford to care about whether some rich lawyer will be able to pay for his house in a select area and private school for his two kids etc etc
Yeah but why do you care so hard? Why is this so important to you, moreso over issues of social justice involving people who are truly hurting (whether they be starving, beaten, or worse)
Why are you so concerned with Javery's plight, is the economic situation that rosy for your own family that you can afford to care about whether some rich lawyer will be able to pay for his house in a select area and private school for his two kids etc etc
What about the whole "all men are created equal" thing? Equal application of policy is all I ask. True justice would require the same amount from every person, not just a progressive tax percentage. Rules based on perceived need should not trump rules based on true fairness and justice.
The problem is a lot of Americans in the lower and middle classes are just as selfish and self focused as the wealthy.
People just don't give much of a shit about others, and think everyone should work hard and get by on their own or not. There's a severe lack of empathy.
The rich just care about making as much money as they can and keeping as much of it as they can. And much of the working and middle class are just bitter from working hard to just get by and can't stomach the though of people getting "handouts" while they're working hard. They can't accept that not everyone had the opportunities they did to even be successful enough to get by, and have delusions that most people on public assistance are living easier lives with the same or more luxuries than they can afford without having to work hard.
People just don't give much of a shit about others, and think everyone should work hard and get by on their own or not. There's a severe lack of empathy.
The rich just care about making as much money as they can and keeping as much of it as they can. And much of the working and middle class are just bitter from working hard to just get by and can't stomach the though of people getting "handouts" while they're working hard. They can't accept that not everyone had the opportunities they did to even be successful enough to get by, and have delusions that most people on public assistance are living easier lives with the same or more luxuries than they can afford without having to work hard.
[quote name='dmaul1114']We'll never have nice things in this country as people are greedy selfish s and not willing to pay for it.
So we have shitty roads, god awful often not worth bothering with public transit (I'd killl for a high speed rail system), pathetic internet speeds that way pay more for vs. other countries, a terrible health care/health insurance system and on down the line. Along with all the shitty elements of our culture--terrible food, obesity, anti-intellectualism, raging consumerism, idolization of celebrities and athletes etc.
I'm not so sure why people are so pro-USA. Lot's of other countries that do a lot of things better and I'd be gone in a second if/when I can work out career and language barrier issues.[/QUOTE]
this is why I laugh whenever someone talks about an American equivalent of the German autobahn. You really want to drive on American highways doing 100+ mph? I know I wouldn't, I can't imagine hitting some of these holes around here going that fast. Would seriously up the alignment of your wheels if nothing else.
s and not willing to pay for it.So we have shitty roads, god awful often not worth bothering with public transit (I'd killl for a high speed rail system), pathetic internet speeds that way pay more for vs. other countries, a terrible health care/health insurance system and on down the line. Along with all the shitty elements of our culture--terrible food, obesity, anti-intellectualism, raging consumerism, idolization of celebrities and athletes etc.
I'm not so sure why people are so pro-USA. Lot's of other countries that do a lot of things better and I'd be gone in a second if/when I can work out career and language barrier issues.[/QUOTE]
this is why I laugh whenever someone talks about an American equivalent of the German autobahn. You really want to drive on American highways doing 100+ mph? I know I wouldn't, I can't imagine hitting some of these holes around here going that fast. Would seriously
up the alignment of your wheels if nothing else.
Trancendental
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[quote name='egofed']What about the whole "all men are created equal" thing? Equal application of policy is all I ask. True justice would require the same amount from every person, not just a progressive tax percentage. Rules based on perceived need should not trump rules based on true fairness and justice.[/QUOTE]
Yeah but worrying about expiring tax cuts on the rich is like worrying about literacy rates in Somalia.
Why should we even care, we have real problems! It's such a dopey issue for 99% of the population to even pay attention to much less care about.
Yeah but worrying about expiring tax cuts on the rich is like worrying about literacy rates in Somalia.
Why should we even care, we have real problems! It's such a dopey issue for 99% of the population to even pay attention to much less care about.
I like dmaul's alternative plan as well. My life is pretty sweet, camoor. I am very fortunate with an awesome family, girlfriend, and friends. My hobbies are pretty inexpensive and I have a ton of free time to partake in them. I made some mistakes in the stock market...but have a pretty sizable nest egg that I saved from my less than stellar salary. My job provides me the opportunity to help people. I hope to fight injustice in every way that I see it. Taxing anybody, rich or poor, at such levels is wrong to me. I want the inefficiencies of government dealt with BEFORE we decide to raise taxes. Prove to me that the government is not wasting my money, then ask for more.
[quote name='dmaul1114']The problem is a lot of Americans in the lower and middle classes are just as selfish and self focused as the wealthy.
People just don't give much of a shit about others, and think everyone should work hard and get by on their own or not. There's a severe lack of empathy.
The rich just care about making as much money as they can and keeping as much of it as they can. And much of the working and middle class are just bitter from working hard to just get by and can't stomach the though of people getting "handouts" while they're working hard. They can't accept that not everyone had the opportunities they did to even be successful enough to get by, and have delusions that most people on public assistance are living easier lives with the same or more luxuries than they can afford without having to work hard.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much, and the sad thing is that although you'd think that in times of prosperity people would be more empathetic and giving, but no, people bitch just as much when times are good as they do when times are bad. Even during the Clinton years all I ever heard was how good the folks on government assistance had it, most of it from my own father.
People just don't give much of a shit about others, and think everyone should work hard and get by on their own or not. There's a severe lack of empathy.
The rich just care about making as much money as they can and keeping as much of it as they can. And much of the working and middle class are just bitter from working hard to just get by and can't stomach the though of people getting "handouts" while they're working hard. They can't accept that not everyone had the opportunities they did to even be successful enough to get by, and have delusions that most people on public assistance are living easier lives with the same or more luxuries than they can afford without having to work hard.[/QUOTE]
Pretty much, and the sad thing is that although you'd think that in times of prosperity people would be more empathetic and giving, but no, people bitch just as much when times are good as they do when times are bad. Even during the Clinton years all I ever heard was how good the folks on government assistance had it, most of it from my own father.
[quote name='camoor']Yeah but worrying about expiring tax cuts on the rich is like worrying about literacy rates in Somalia.
Why should we even care, we have real problems! It's such a dopey issue for 99% of the population to even pay attention to much less care about.[/QUOTE]
You want to explain to him how percentages aren't equal across all incomes, or should I? Because if every man is equal, then taxing some poor SOB at the same rate as his rich boss makes no sense as the dollar amounts will be different.
Why should we even care, we have real problems! It's such a dopey issue for 99% of the population to even pay attention to much less care about.[/QUOTE]
You want to explain to him how percentages aren't equal across all incomes, or should I? Because if every man is equal, then taxing some poor SOB at the same rate as his rich boss makes no sense as the dollar amounts will be different.
Trancendental
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[quote name='egofed']I hope to fight injustice in every way that I see it.[/QUOTE]
You're off to a piss-poor start Batman.
You're off to a piss-poor start Batman.
[quote name='Clak']You want to explain to him how percentages aren't equal across all incomes, or should I? Because if every man is equal, then taxing some poor SOB at the same rate as his rich boss makes no sense as the dollar amounts will be different.[/QUOTE]
And it's not fair.
A rich person can give up 25% (or whatever flat tax number you go with) and not have a dent in their quality of life. Where as 25% of income is a huge quality of life hit to someone making $25k or whatever.
That's why a progressive system is needed. Charging the same percentage across all incomes isn't fair. People who make more can pay a bigger percentage and still afford luxuries, people who are barely getting by can't afford to pay the same percentage with no quality of life hit.
And it's not fair.
A rich person can give up 25% (or whatever flat tax number you go with) and not have a dent in their quality of life. Where as 25% of income is a huge quality of life hit to someone making $25k or whatever.
That's why a progressive system is needed. Charging the same percentage across all incomes isn't fair. People who make more can pay a bigger percentage and still afford luxuries, people who are barely getting by can't afford to pay the same percentage with no quality of life hit.
So is it fair share or that they can afford to pay it? There are always going to be inequality of outcomes in peoples' lives, the government is not there to regulate morals and outcomes, it is there to defend us and ensure that opportunity exists. This burden should be taken by all to fund. The rich often prosper despite government, not because of it. They owe no more than the family living on welfare. It's a system devised to capture as much money for the government as possible.
I hope that one day some rich sugar daddy comes and finally makes all this free defense worth it for you, otherwise you come off as one of the hope-to-be-rich crowd. Down on your knees so to speak, servicing those you aspire to be like.
Sell-out doesn't even begin to describe your attitude.
Sell-out doesn't even begin to describe your attitude.
speedracer
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[quote name='egofed']So is it fair share or that they can afford to pay it? There are always going to be inequality of outcomes in peoples' lives, the government is not there to regulate morals and outcomes, it is there to defend us and ensure that opportunity exists. This burden should be taken by all to fund. The rich often prosper despite government, not because of it. They owe no more than the family living on welfare. It's a system devised to capture as much money for the government as possible.[/QUOTE]
My family is fabulously wealthy by any measure, barring the truly outrageous fortunes of the world. My wife and I both went to public schools. My wife and I both graduated with undergraduate degrees from state colleges. I paid for mine using the GI Bill. We both took out federally subsidized loans to do so. We then took out more federally subsidized loans for her to go to law school. Then based on our gigantic income, we bought a house in part because of the mortgage income deduction.
Opportunity was afforded to us by federal and state taxpayers. We have used that assistance to enter the top 5% of earners in America and we reside among the top income families on the planet. My wife alone makes more money than all four of our parents combined.
Without conditions whatsoever, our story of incredible success would not have happened without the opportunity presented by very forward thinking politicians. Period. My children will grow up in something I never had: a home that their parents own. They as children ride in our brand new cars, something my wife and I had never done as children ourselves. My 6 month old has a college fund that has more money in it than my first car cost.
And I have myself, my wife, our families, and the American taxpayer to thank. And I am truly grateful. I don't understand why others aren't.
My family is fabulously wealthy by any measure, barring the truly outrageous fortunes of the world. My wife and I both went to public schools. My wife and I both graduated with undergraduate degrees from state colleges. I paid for mine using the GI Bill. We both took out federally subsidized loans to do so. We then took out more federally subsidized loans for her to go to law school. Then based on our gigantic income, we bought a house in part because of the mortgage income deduction.
Opportunity was afforded to us by federal and state taxpayers. We have used that assistance to enter the top 5% of earners in America and we reside among the top income families on the planet. My wife alone makes more money than all four of our parents combined.
Without conditions whatsoever, our story of incredible success would not have happened without the opportunity presented by very forward thinking politicians. Period. My children will grow up in something I never had: a home that their parents own. They as children ride in our brand new cars, something my wife and I had never done as children ourselves. My 6 month old has a college fund that has more money in it than my first car cost.
And I have myself, my wife, our families, and the American taxpayer to thank. And I am truly grateful. I don't understand why others aren't.
Trancendental
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[quote name='egofed']the government ... is there to defend us and ensure that opportunity exists.[/QUOTE]
wat
wat
soulvengeance
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[quote name='egofed']I care because right is right and wrong is wrong. Just because something makes sense to you, does not make it morally just. Javery shouldn't have to care about my situation. True freedom allows you to be a major dick if you want to be.;-) I do understand the progressive tax system, thank you very much. Taking 35% or 39% of any income should be criminal. We do have usury laws, too bad they do not apply to the government. The fair tax that I support does away with all income tax, speedracer. You get all of your income, and pay a higher tax on what you choose to purchase. As far as past taxation rates, old wrongs should be used as examples for the future? We do have a spending problem and a revenue problem. Too many people pay no income tax in our current system but still get to vote.[/QUOTE]
So people who don't pay income tax don't get to vote?
So people who don't pay income tax don't get to vote?
[quote name='camoor']wat[/QUOTE]
Never mind that when he says "defend us" he doesn't specify against what the government is supposed to defend us. Welfare defends people against a number of things, just as an example. But I get the feeling he means defend us against the non-existant boogie men that we often end up going to war to fight. Then again, that's the job of the military, not the government.
So yeah, as usual what he said adds nothing to the conversation.
Never mind that when he says "defend us" he doesn't specify against what the government is supposed to defend us. Welfare defends people against a number of things, just as an example. But I get the feeling he means defend us against the non-existant boogie men that we often end up going to war to fight. Then again, that's the job of the military, not the government.
So yeah, as usual what he said adds nothing to the conversation.
speedracer
Banned
Back on the actual fiscal cliff talks. So a couple of days ago Obama pulls a bunch of CEOs up to the White House and proposed his plan. The Vampire Squid himself said he thought it was a good plan.
Now Boehner is going on and on complaining about Obama not putting forth a plan to cut Medicare. So sez the man:
1. Does not want
2. Was attacked by Republicans for in the presidential elections
3. Does not want
To recap:
Democrats want to increase taxes and have laid out a $1 trillion plan.
Republicans want medicare cuts and blame Democrats for not putting forward a plan to do what they want.
Or, as a blogger said better:
Now Boehner is going on and on complaining about Obama not putting forth a plan to cut Medicare. So sez the man:
Political to english translation: Republicans want Obama to propose the Medicare cuts, the cuts that Obama:
1. Does not want
2. Was attacked by Republicans for in the presidential elections
3. Does not want
To recap:
Democrats want to increase taxes and have laid out a $1 trillion plan.
Republicans want medicare cuts and blame Democrats for not putting forward a plan to do what they want.
Or, as a blogger said better:
Yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuup.
I think they really just need to let the deadline come and taxes go up.
Then dems can put forth a bill to lower taxes on those making under $250k, would be political suicide for republicans to vote against it enmasse.
So it gets what we need with just the shitty fact of people in lower incomes paying higher taxes for a month or two. And if the republicans do block it long term, mid-term elections in 2014 should break solidly for the dems. Win-win in my book.
Then dems can put forth a bill to lower taxes on those making under $250k, would be political suicide for republicans to vote against it enmasse.
So it gets what we need with just the shitty fact of people in lower incomes paying higher taxes for a month or two. And if the republicans do block it long term, mid-term elections in 2014 should break solidly for the dems. Win-win in my book.
perdition(troy
CAGiversary!
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Go over the edge and don't look back imo.
speedracer
Banned
Since we last chatted:
The Dems wouldn't put a number on the Medicare cuts that Republicans want so a Republican aide went ahead and leaked that they did. How helpful!
Republican playbook:
1. Threaten to shut down government/start a debt crisis
2. Make no serious, actionable offer or plan at any point
3. Demand Democrats offer cuts that Democrats don't want
4. Leak Democratic offers to cut
5. Run against Democrats on cuts Republicans wanted
6. Threaten to shut down government/start a debt crisis
Remember kids, Obama is the problem.
The Dems wouldn't put a number on the Medicare cuts that Republicans want so a Republican aide went ahead and leaked that they did. How helpful!
Bam. There it is. Obama laid out his plan and the Republicans couldn't leak it fast enough. Side note: wasn't the knock on Obama that he didn't lay out his plans? And that he isn't getting anything done? Well, it's going to be tough for Boehner to pretend like four trillion dollars isn't substantive. He's going to have to come back with a detailed idea of what he wants and what the numbers should be if he's going to be taken seriously at this point....right? I mean, when even the CEO of Goldman Sachs says its a good plan, I mean, you're at least going to bring your own plan forward now right? At least? Or at least you'll say what you think the numbers should be near? At least? Words?
Naturally.
"he would not say what the number should be"
Republican playbook:
1. Threaten to shut down government/start a debt crisis
2. Make no serious, actionable offer or plan at any point
3. Demand Democrats offer cuts that Democrats don't want
4. Leak Democratic offers to cut
5. Run against Democrats on cuts Republicans wanted
6. Threaten to shut down government/start a debt crisis
Remember kids, Obama is the problem.
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeessssss!
Worthless, whiny rich pieces of shit like you need to pay more taxes.
No one wants to hear you whine again about how tough you have it working in a useless profession making over $200k and how that's not enough because you choose to live in expensive area, to pop out a bunch of crib midgets with your wife etc.[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol: HOLY Dmaul, I've never seen you explode like that lmao
Worthless, whiny rich pieces of shit like you need to pay more taxes.
No one wants to hear you whine again about how tough you have it working in a useless profession making over $200k and how that's not enough because you choose to live in expensive area, to pop out a bunch of crib midgets with your wife etc.[/QUOTE]
:lol::lol::lol: HOLY
Dmaul, I've never seen you explode like that lmao[quote name='UncleBob']
I tend to believe that cutting spending in other areas (in particular, military/defense) would be the better way to finance it. QUOTE]
I'd much rather prefer that. Problem is, no one in Congress, Dems or Repubs, is gonna let that happen.
I tend to believe that cutting spending in other areas (in particular, military/defense) would be the better way to finance it. QUOTE]
I'd much rather prefer that. Problem is, no one in Congress, Dems or Repubs, is gonna let that happen.
[quote name='UncleBob']This reminds me of a South Park episode...
Regardless, I don't feel that it "looks like we care" about our spending problem by simply increasing our income by what would be a relatively trivial amount (in comparison to our current spending levels and in comparison to the overall debt level).
So, basically, the argument is that we should focus on short-term goals.
I see no problem with that.
I just know that someone is grinding their teeth over the misuse of debt vs. deficit...
Is higher taxes the best way to finance social spending?
I tend to believe that cutting spending in other areas (in particular, military/defense) would be the better way to finance it. That's not to say the entire tax situation doesn't need to be looked at, but when our government has had unchecked spending for so long, I'd prefer to see them show that they do have restraint and control (and common sense) before giving them more money.[/QUOTE]
I'd much rather profer that, but that'd get next to zero support from both Dems and Repubs.
Regardless, I don't feel that it "looks like we care" about our spending problem by simply increasing our income by what would be a relatively trivial amount (in comparison to our current spending levels and in comparison to the overall debt level).
So, basically, the argument is that we should focus on short-term goals.
I see no problem with that.
I just know that someone is grinding their teeth over the misuse of debt vs. deficit...
Is higher taxes the best way to finance social spending?
I tend to believe that cutting spending in other areas (in particular, military/defense) would be the better way to finance it. That's not to say the entire tax situation doesn't need to be looked at, but when our government has had unchecked spending for so long, I'd prefer to see them show that they do have restraint and control (and common sense) before giving them more money.[/QUOTE]
I'd much rather profer that, but that'd get next to zero support from both Dems and Repubs.
NabAsseldhase
Banned
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speedracer
Banned
Republicans complaining that Obama used to be the only adult in the room who would actually start from where the finish line would be. Now he won't do it anymore because the Republicans just ask for more. And if you think that's crazy, remember that Obama's last debt ceiling offer had MORE CUTS than Boehner's original demand. Boehner just kept pulling the football and running further to the right.
Obama. The do nothing president.
"The White House’s belief was that by being solicitous in their policy proposals, they would win goodwill on the other side"
lulz. dumbasses.
[quote name='camoor']Your 'reason' makes about as much sense as Gordon Gekko's 'greed is good' speech.
edit: Javery, fyi Gekko was the villian of that movie. I didn't want you to be confused.[/QUOTE]
Whatever. How many people in this thread purposely don't take deductions that they otherwise could have (not against the rules) or write bigger checks to the government every year (also not against the rules) for the "greater good"? Oh that's right, no one. I'm all for the "rich" paying higher taxes too as long as you raise the bar to a number higher than I'll ever achieve.
edit: Javery, fyi Gekko was the villian of that movie. I didn't want you to be confused.[/QUOTE]
Whatever. How many people in this thread purposely don't take deductions that they otherwise could have (not against the rules) or write bigger checks to the government every year (also not against the rules) for the "greater good"? Oh that's right, no one. I'm all for the "rich" paying higher taxes too as long as you raise the bar to a number higher than I'll ever achieve.
Trancendental
CAGiversary!
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[quote name='Javery']Whatever. How many people in this thread purposely don't take deductions that they otherwise could have (not against the rules) or write bigger checks to the government every year (also not against the rules) for the "greater good"? Oh that's right, no one. I'm all for the "rich" paying higher taxes too as long as you raise the bar to a number higher than I'll ever achieve. [/QUOTE]
Of course, we all care for our families more then the govt.
But don't be so bitter dude. It's like paying internet sales tax, when for so many years it's been free to trade on the net. Sure it sucks but deep down you know it's the right thing. Take it for what it was - you enjoyed a nice free ride for a long time, now you gotta suck it up and pay your fair share.
Don't be a bitter old man, you have a pretty good life compared to most Americans.
[/QUOTE]Of course, we all care for our families more then the govt.
But don't be so bitter dude. It's like paying internet sales tax, when for so many years it's been free to trade on the net. Sure it sucks but deep down you know it's the right thing. Take it for what it was - you enjoyed a nice free ride for a long time, now you gotta suck it up and pay your fair share.
Don't be a bitter old man, you have a pretty good life compared to most Americans.
I don't deduct anything from my taxes other than my student loan interest. I don't claim charitable donations (money or stuff donated to Goodwill) as I don't give to get a tax break. I buy shit I use for work (iPad and expensive stuff like that down to office supplies) and don't bother itemizing and writing things like that off. I just put in my W2 income, any outside consulting income, deduct my student loan interest since that's already money going to the government, and that's it.
I don't really give much of a crap about money. I do ok for myself, but I could be just as happy making significantly less as all I really need is a roof over my head, money for utility bills and cell phone and Netflix as I'm not very consumerist and would rather spend time doing stuff with people than sitting around consuming things I buy, and lots of things I like to do like running, hiking etc. are free or low cost. My girlfriend and I both despise crib midgets as well, so never wanting kids saves us aton of money in the long run as well.
Not everyone's life revolves around making as much money as possible and keeping as much of it as possible to buy shit we don't need. And I'm fully supportive of my taxes going up. Fully letting the Bush tax cuts expire is probably a bad idea as it would hurt the lower income brackets too much, especially with the economic situation still being tough. But someone like me making $70-75K can certainly afford to pay a little more. Much less when I marry my girlfriend and we're over $120k at the least. I also support online sales tax even though I do most of my shopping online. I know I could (and should) pay it now, but it's too much hassle to keep track of all my online purchases from everywhere each year. But I'd 100% vote to add online sales tax in my state if it was ever a ballot measure as I'm happy to pay it if it's just automatically added like when shopping locally. Again, not everyone is obsessed with money.
I don't really give much of a crap about money. I do ok for myself, but I could be just as happy making significantly less as all I really need is a roof over my head, money for utility bills and cell phone and Netflix as I'm not very consumerist and would rather spend time doing stuff with people than sitting around consuming things I buy, and lots of things I like to do like running, hiking etc. are free or low cost. My girlfriend and I both despise crib midgets as well, so never wanting kids saves us a
ton of money in the long run as well.Not everyone's life revolves around making as much money as possible and keeping as much of it as possible to buy shit we don't need. And I'm fully supportive of my taxes going up. Fully letting the Bush tax cuts expire is probably a bad idea as it would hurt the lower income brackets too much, especially with the economic situation still being tough. But someone like me making $70-75K can certainly afford to pay a little more. Much less when I marry my girlfriend and we're over $120k at the least. I also support online sales tax even though I do most of my shopping online. I know I could (and should) pay it now, but it's too much hassle to keep track of all my online purchases from everywhere each year. But I'd 100% vote to add online sales tax in my state if it was ever a ballot measure as I'm happy to pay it if it's just automatically added like when shopping locally. Again, not everyone is obsessed with money.
perdition(troy
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Why don't you just guess the amount of things you buy online and just write in your assumed tax based off your guess?
[quote name='perdition(troy']Why don't you just guess the amount of things you buy online and just write in your assumed tax based off your guess?[/QUOTE]
Same reason no one here cuts extra checks to the government via Pay.gov.
It's easy to talk about wanting to give the government extra money. Not so easy to actually do it.
Same reason no one here cuts extra checks to the government via Pay.gov.
It's easy to talk about wanting to give the government extra money. Not so easy to actually do it.
If I'm going to give the government extra money they need to take it automatically and everyone in my income bracket and doing the same amount of online shopping needs to be getting hit with the same share. My doing it alone does no good, the system has to change so everyone is chipping in more for it to make a difference, and you can't put that burden on tax payers and expect people to accurately report and pay.
Guessing would be very imprecise anyway since I buy nearly everything but groceries online these days, and it's impossible to keep straight which places are charging tax and which aren't etc. They need to make a standard online sales tax rate the feds collect and distribute to the states to automate things.
Guessing would be very imprecise anyway since I buy nearly everything but groceries online these days, and it's impossible to keep straight which places are charging tax and which aren't etc. They need to make a standard online sales tax rate the feds collect and distribute to the states to automate things.
bread's done