The mouse/keyboard = FPS "cheating" vs. other peripherals

S

speedracer

Banned
I was curious if anyone else was wondering how the mouse/keyboard came to be such an alien and hated possible peripheral on consoles. I've seen people argue (correctly, imo) that a mouse/keyboard will typically crush controller-controlled players in a FPS and so they shouldn't be allowed.

But I always get my butt kicked when I race online against people with a racing wheel. And I know I would kick the crap out of someone using a controller if I had an arcade stick in a fighting game (a la SF2).

Why is there this massive resistance to the mouse/keyboard FPS among console makers (and a large section of gamers)? I don't get it.

Any insights on this one?
 
Me thinks it's because there's not real comfortable/convenient way to set up a keyboard and mouse in the living room yet.

Unless all consoles started supporting that Phantom lap board.
 
'Cuz keyboards and mice are seen primarily as an indication of the PC environment, which is something consoles are meant to be a rebellious counterpoint to.

In other words, if you allow them on your system, it's sort of like saying "this is really just a locked down PC, and as such, you're probably paying a premium for the components, when instead you could just build a PC yourself and have all the added functionality that entails AND guarantee better quality parts."

Additionally, if kbm are allowed, people will (incorrectly) start claiming that it's not a true console in the sense that "Oh, now I have to worry about an OS? About hardware configurations? About upgrading this stupid thing a few years down the line? About all the other compatibility bullshit I'm trying to ESCAPE with a console? fuck this nonsense."

People have the idea of a console largely ingrained as a simple plug-and-play device with a hand held controller. Nevermind that certain genres and things can be better played with a kbm setup - it doesn't override the idea of a console at its core.

Additionally, kbm would be something that's considered after-market, since that's something the consumer has to deal with on their own. There's probably never going to be a day ("probably") where a console comes with a kbm standard.

What else to discuss....

Oh. Racing wheels/fightpads are seen as a way to further perfect what a console's inherent controller wasn't specifically designed to do. Since the controller is more or less a jack-of-all-trades entry point, these alternatives are seen more as taking one very specific point further. A better dpad, a completely alternative input method, etc. Kbm doesn't follow because it's largely built for things in addition to specific game actions, meaning that you always COULD type a report with it "just as good" as you could play an FPS. See, the former are specialized, while the latter is - again - more or a generic input device, even if the latter just happens to be the idealized method for FPS controls.

...

Hmm I think that's everything I wanted to cover.
 
I don't hate them or think it's cheating.

I've just never liked the control scheme. Sure the mouse is great for aiming. But the keyboard is terrible for the other parts of the controls.

That's one of many things that has kept me from ever getting into PC games despite trying a few times over the years. It's even less attractive now that I spend so much time on PCs at work and working at home, net surfing etc. I just don't want to sit and game at one too, and I'd probably never put a PC in the living room hooked up to the TV.
 
I can't play FPS' worth crap on a gamepad. I grew up playing wolfenstein and doom so going to a console is completely alien to me.

Never bothered with Halo or any of those games.
 
it's not cheating. People get really good at using them and the KB/M's natural advantage is speed. There's no comparison to be made-- it's like comparing the Wii wheel control of mario kart vs. using a controller. The controller has many natural advantages, but (theoretically?) someone could get really good at using the Wii wheel too...but I would put my money on the guy with the controller.

Btw, a lot of (all?) console shooters use aim assist and other tricks to make up for things that KB/M can't do.


and OP, there are plenty of people who would destroy you using a pad in fighting games :lol: an arcade stick is not an automatic advantage at all.

If you are using keyboard and mouse you would be getting headshot every time.
Click to expand...

yeah...if your opponents all stand still and wait for you to aim. The other thing about KB+M is better mobility...turning and making precision moves are both much easier.
 
[quote name='ninja dog']
Btw, a lot of (all?) console shooters use aim assist and other tricks to make up for things that KB/M can't do.[/quote]
This really cant be said enough. Dual stick in FPS is like playing the Special Olympics. Sure, you can prefer it and be really good at it, even better than most people on a mouse, but your personal anecdote doesnt change the factual differences between the two options.

I dont particularly like Mark Rein, but he slowed the console version of UT3 down for a reason, and he was correct to do so.
 
[quote name='ninja dog']Btw, a lot of (all?) console shooters use aim assist and other tricks to make up for things that KB/M can't do.[/quote]
this.
and this also messes you up if you use KB/M on console
AND there usually is no natural support for KB/M anyway.

if you play halo3, you'll notice that it's mega difficult to hit your own teammates, because there's no auto-aim or reticle magnetism. and it kinda sucks.

also playing tf2 on xbl vs. pc is a completely different experience. i don't think there's any autoaim on tf2 and the speed of the game makes it way more entertaining to play against KB/M players. a decent sniper in tf2 pc will score way more kills than a decent sniper in tf2 xbl.
 
Actually, this is the first time I've ever seen the use of mouse & keyboard regarded as cheating or an unfair advantage. So long as a controller doesn't interfere with the actual operation of the software, I say anything goes. If you can rule the Halo universe using a dance pad, good for you.

I personally cannot abide mouse and keyboard for action oriented games. I just find it very uncomfortable and cramp inducing. But I still regard Microsoft's opposition to their use on Xbox as a mistake. On the original Xbox they missed out on a lot of potential console exclusives by not encouraging more ports from the PC. Yes, they had a lot of perception issues to manage but giving up a bunch of strong titles against what Sony and Nintendo brought to bear was poor judgement.
 
I guess the people the thread creator are referring to enjoy the thought of playing on "a level playing field" where mostly everyone is using the same controller on console gaming and no hot keys or extra buttons on the mouse or console scripts to make the weapon invisible so you can see what's there without it. I'm kind of like that, though don't think I suck at FPS's on PC's, but I guess I like having a pre-conceived notion that I got killed because the guy had more skill than me, not because I didn't invest in a gaming keyboard/mouse or hot key'ed some fanatical feature that won the firefight for him.
 
Keyboard and Mouse will always be the best choice for competitive RTS and FPS gaming. A console controller is naturally a flawed setup for FPS especially since they almost always have some type of auto-assist built within the game. The down side to a Keyboard and Mouse setup is the immersion that is lost when playing a game.

You need to play on a flat surface and usually in a upright position. There is also little available for rumble or motion control features. It really depends on the type of gamer you are and if you prefer an immersion experience or a competitive experience.

The reason why you don't see any third-party KBM setups on the 360 is because Microsoft doesn't want to allow alternative controller setups. They also want to control the accessory market, which is why you dont see any third-part wireless controllers on the 360. They also have been integrating the 360 controller into PC games, trying to familiarize PC gamers with their controller in hope to attract more users. I personally think that controllers in general have advanced little since the days of the SNES and hope to see massive improvements in the next gen consoles.
 
I don't play many online FPS' so I don't know how frequently it's called cheating. That being said, whoever is calling it cheating, suck it up. Either invest in the same setup or realize that it's just a game.
 
On a somewhat related note, the best controller/mouse combo I ever used was on quake 3 arena for dreamcast. I used the analog thing to move around and the mouse for aiming and shooting. Good times.:) Wonder why they don't have more setups like that?
 
I don't think there is really any animosity between the two, but I think developers just want to keep everyone on a equal playing field (hardware wise) on consoles.
 
I don't think the controller is a limiting factor for most things. Its just how used you are to the controls.

The hardware has a certain point you can't get past, but I doubt thats the issue for most people.

Play every game with whatever you feel is most comfortable, as the controls are usually only a small part of the big picture, and unless you've got MLG aspirations, it shouldn't impact your fun.
 
[quote name='daschrier']I can't play FPS' worth crap on a gamepad. I grew up playing wolfenstein and doom so going to a console is completely alien to me.

Never bothered with Halo or any of those games.[/quote]Halo was released on PC in I think 2003.
 
Developers and console makers just need to embrace the Novint Falcon as the de facto standard for controller input. Best input method ever designed.
 
[quote name='speedracer']I was curious if anyone else was wondering how the mouse/keyboard came to be such an alien and hated possible peripheral on consoles. I've seen people argue (correctly, imo) that a mouse/keyboard will typically crush controller-controlled players in a FPS and so they shouldn't be allowed.

But I always get my butt kicked when I race online against people with a racing wheel. And I know I would kick the crap out of someone using a controller if I had an arcade stick in a fighting game (a la SF2).

Why is there this massive resistance to the mouse/keyboard FPS among console makers (and a large section of gamers)? I don't get it.

Any insights on this one?[/quote]


It's not all that alien.

The mouse/keyboard was used for Quake III on the Dreamcast. Also, it wasn't impossible to beat players with the gamepad back then. The only weapon that was really difficult to use was the railgun witht he pad. I eventually moved on to the mouse/keyboard on the DC though.

With games like Halo 3 and COD, the dual analog controls are as good as mouse/keybaord IMO. Since the DC didn't had dual analog, it was more difficult, but not impossible to compete with the mouse/keyboard crowd.
 
I think the primary reason that you haven't seen a mouse/keyboard on consoles is the perception problem. Most people equate mouse/keyboard with a pc, and the pc is generally thought of as a much more complicated device when it comes to gaming. I think in order to keep the perception of simple plug and play system, they have tried to minimize the convergence of the two as much as possible. Although, in many areas like hard drives, patches, and updates the convergence is inevitable.

The mouse and keyboard is really the only thing that keeps me gaming on a pc, I still pick the pc version for all FPS and strategy games when given the option. I really wish they would just allow the option, and maybe have it as a toggle setting in multiplayer matches whether or not to allow mouse/keyboard players. Dual analog just isn’t as accurate or precise as a mouse. For me personally, I find the dead zone and slow turning speed frustrating to play shooters with.
 
On a side note, but somewhat related to topic, I have a question: How many of you actually change the joystick sensitivity for console games? For single player games I usually never change the controls, unless I find it terribly awful (ie: Resident Evil's except for 4).

Do you think this gives some players any advantages? Or in the end is just a matter of skill with whatever sensitivity you play with? I would love to know your opinions.
 
Well for Halo 2 (the only thing I've messed with) if you're playing with your sensitivity low or standard, you're at a major disadvantage to those who can control themselves with high sensitivity. You can turn around so much faster.

But if you're shit for aim at max sensitivity, then it doesn't really help. That control is key.
 
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