Tired of the 'militant atheism' vs 'fundamentalist religion' scene?

Those videos were great. I agree with this guy. The world would be a much better place if people would just realize that, when it comes to matters of religion, nothing is certain.
 
[quote name='chiwii']Those videos were great. I agree with this guy. The world would be a much better place if people would just realize that, when it comes to matters of religion, nothing is certain.[/QUOTE]

Or even better if people would stop with missions and efforts to convert people to their religion (or non-belief) and leave religion/spiritualism as a private matter only shared with interested parties.

I'm a non-believer. But I couldn't give a rat's ass what other's believe and never talk about it one way or the other.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']
I'm a non-believer. But I couldn't give a rat's ass what other's believe and never talk about it one way or the other.[/QUOTE]

Ditto..The problem is that many religious doctrines explicitly command followers to do the opposite...to preach and convert the world do their faith. Xtians and Muslims have a duty to do these things if they want to be considered devout. There are no such dogmas in atheism. It is simply a rejection of those ideas.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']work finally blocked youtube. :whistle2:| guess ill check this out when i get home.[/QUOTE]

Here is the original source, it's not youtube so maybe it will work. I just couldn't figure out how to embed it here.
 
[quote name='RAMSTORIA']work finally blocked youtube. :whistle2:| guess ill check this out when i get home.[/QUOTE]

My work blocked it also but we figured out that searching for clips on google with youtube in the search field allows you to backdoor it. It's worth a shot.

As for the OP, I like it. I just don't think the world's population will turn away from the religions we have in place.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']Muslims have a duty to do these things if they want to be considered devout.[/QUOTE]

Not entirely true. How many times have you had a muslim "missionary" knock on your door and ask you if you've ever considered meeting Allah at the local mosque?

Muslims are encouraged to represent the faith well through their actions, and be a resource for those who have questions. Most of the "spreading of the faith" actually is done internally with other Muslims who maybe stopped going to the mosque, are openly doing things that aren't encouraged (owning liquor stores, partying, etc).

In fact, you could look at this post as loosely "spreading the faith" but my intent is just to correct a statement that isn't quite accurate. The arabic term is "dawa", or inviting.
 
He could have easily gotten this down to a minute by simply saying "You can't prove there's no god, so nyuh".

edit- I also don't agree with his idea that whatever we believe, we believe because that's what we're taught by our culture. That doesn't explain people who reject whatever religion they're taught to believe by their family/culture. Culture in the south is predominately religious, and Christian at that, so then according to him, anyone growing up here should follow that pattern.
 
[quote name='Capitalizt']The problem is that many religious doctrines explicitly command followers to do the opposite...to preach and convert the world do their faith....There are no such dogmas in atheism. It is simply a rejection of those ideas.[/QUOTE]

I've confronted a few missionaries, all of whom said 'ok' after I turned down the offer to such religious talk. On the other end, I've confronted a few atheists who would not cease in their attempt to "make me admit to the stupidity of religion." The 'dogma' of atheism is to cleanse the world of organized religion or at least feel snickeringly superior than everyone else. It's really ironic. Atheists claim they possess the "one real truth" that every other religion also claims and champion their belief in public forums. But as this neuroscientist and other scientists before him have said, science is not against spirituality but is both compatible and a profound source of spirituality. With so much unknown, one really has to keep an open mind.

Also, I really like the idea of 'possibilianism' as distinct from agnosticism mainly because, as the guy pointed out, that agnosticism is a weak stance where one appears to be waiting for evidence before committing or believing. Possibilianism is not a forthright rejection of any ideas or beliefs without evidence, just like science, and unlike atheism or devout religions.
 
Hmmmm. This kind of strikes me as a forward-looking intelligent design. That is, it's still substituting phenomena that might eventually one day be replaced with empirical scientific knowledge with "hey, we don't know what this is, so perhaps it's an act of god!"

Which will be a real pain to try to replace with scientific knowledge once we come across the means of identifying the phenomena. "Sorry, your metaphysical being is no longer in service, since we have the scientific and technological know-how now." That might rub some people the wrong way. I mean, being labeled a heretic doesn't have the same kind of punch that it did in Galileo's day, sure - but replacing god with empiricism isn't a particularly well-received task.

That said, metaphysical explanations will be around well after my death. It's the sort of thing keeps us going, if we're to believe Emile Durkheim (as opposed to a universally destructive force, if we are to believe Karl Marx on the matter). So trying to rid the world of searching in futility for the existence of a god is itself futile. But, hey, if we can substitute people denying *existing* scientific knowledge because they're clinging to their gods with people denying *yet to be discovered* scientific knowledge, I guess all's well in the end. Denying knowledge we don't yet have is all well and good. Silly, but safe, I suppose.
 
[quote name='tivo'] On the other end, I've confronted a few atheists who would not cease in their attempt to "make me admit to the stupidity of religion." The 'dogma' of atheism is to cleanse the world of organized religion or at least feel snickeringly superior than everyone else. [/QUOTE] Whatever experience you had with those people says more about their personalities than anything else. There is no dogma in atheism.

It's really ironic. Atheists claim they possess the "one real truth" that every other religion also claims and champion their belief in public forums.
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I've never heard atheists claiming they have some ultimate truth. Most atheists are also agnostics..taking a skeptical approach towards all truth claims..especially those that are extraordinary or supernatural. It is perfectly valid to point out that theists and all of the "woo woo" paranormal advocates have failed to make their case..and that those who insist on believing this stuff without evidence are irrational. A skeptical position towards magical thinking is not any sort of dogma however. It's just common sense.

But as this neuroscientist and other scientists before him have said, science is not against spirituality but is both compatible and a profound source of spirituality.
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Sam Harris is considered one of the most "militant" of the new atheists, and he has said virtually the same thing. He is also a neuroscientist and is very open to exploring various aspects of the human mind that cause spiritual experiences. No good scientist will say that we should reject ideas merely because they lack evidence at the moment..but they certainly will say that in order to gain credibility and respect, ideas must be backed by something tangible...There must be a way to test them and see if they conform to reality. Otherwise, they are useless because there is no way to separate truth from fantasy.
 
I find it hilarious and hypocritical that he makes the claim that anyone who adheres to biblical scripture must therefor believe in a young Earth, for he makes an assertive claim that he knows what the Judeo-Christians believe and yet he actually doesn't.
 
Edit: This guy actually sounds like a proponent of ID. That unknowns and complexities = evidence of a watchmaker.

Also, I see how supporting ID does not do service to science, that wighting off unknowns to a "higher being" won't improve man's knowledge or encourage his curiosity. But the same could be said of everything
 
[quote name='tivo']Also, I see how supporting ID does not do service to science, that wighting off unknowns to a "higher being" won't improve man's knowledge or encourage his curiosity. But the same could be said of everything[/QUOTE]

wat
 
I think he's trying to say that deeply religious people write almost everything off as "God's work." They make no effort to understand the actual phenomena because their "God moves in mysterious ways."
 
[quote name='camoor']Finally saw it. Oh look, another charasmatic guy pedaling crap.[/QUOTE]



Other than him reminding you of Obama, maybe you could expand on exactly which points you find 'crap' and why?
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Other than him reminding you of Obama, maybe you could expand on exactly which points you find 'crap' and why?[/QUOTE]

Take his blanket claim that all religions are equally ridiculous. Bullshit relativism.

The whole thing is agnosticism in a shiny new package. BFD
 
How extraordinary - all the agnostics and atheists on this board have only ever heard of and associated with level headed individuals who are completely tolerant of theistic persons, never once initiating arguments or insulting those who don't agree with them.

Gosh, I guess I'm just not living in the correct reality as everyone else.
 
I'll admit I've been lucky enough to not really be berated for my atheism, at least face to face that is. Aside from hearing things like "I'm worried about your soul" or that a person can't be moral without religion, but that's all ridiculous enough that I can ignore it.
 
Oh I've seen atheists be very disrespectful of religious people. But I still realize that's not how the majority of atheists/agnostics are. The majority I've known are like me and just don't give a shit about religion or what others think/believe and keep it to themselves and just ignore comments like those Clak mentioned.

But there are definitely atheists who are very militant about it for sure. Especially among the teens and college aged crowd as they're at that "rebel against society" age etc. But also among adults with people protesting, writing books against religion etc.
 
Y'know, I don't think I've ever met someone who was straight-out dickish about religion. Not an atheist, not a Catholic, not a Mormon, not a Jehovah's Withness...

The fuck, y'all?
 
I've met several both ways. In college I saw some (presumably) atheist students heckling the hell out of some of the religious people that were handing out bibles etc.

And I've seen many times on campus where the religious people in the free speech zones are being dickish, egging people on with anti-gay rhetoric etc. It's happened a few times where I work now--makes a big stir over the money wasted for security needs etc. as the cops have to stay there to keep fights from breaking out etc.

I've had a few of the door knockers be pretty rude when I tried to politely decline, so I started just not answering the door, or just shutting it without saying anything other than no thanks. Though thankfully I don't have to worry about that now since I'm in a controlled access building and the concierge won't let any solicitor's in.
 
Yeah I really don't care either way, I won't get in anyone's face unless they start an argument. I'm even nice to the gideons that come on campus, despite feeling like it's a separation of church and state issue with them being at a state school.

Someone did give me shit once when I saw one of those little bibles lying on the floor and tossed it in the trash. You'd think I took it out back and burned it.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Sascrotchewan is not in Vermont, komrade.[/QUOTE]

OK - so you're Canadian?

People like Palin aren't caricatures - there are actually folks here in America who act like her (and even worse) when it comes to trying to force their warped worldview on others.
 
It is indeed sad that saying you are agnostic has become like a dirty word. I am one of the only people I know that wears that bad with pride, most shirk from it because both Christians and Atheists a like think your a coward. I just personally do not want to be guilty of an arrogance as great as claiming I know the meaning of life or how we all got here or I guess how it DID NOT happen.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']It is indeed sad that saying you are agnostic has become like a dirty word. I am one of the only people I know that wears that bad with pride, most shirk from it because both Christians and Atheists a like think your a coward. I just personally do not want to be guilty of an arrogance as great as claiming I know the meaning of life or how we all got here or I guess how it DID NOT happen.[/QUOTE]

Agnosticism usually signals to me that the person doesn't care. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm confused as to why it would be a source of pride. Course - I never did get that 'slacker' thing.
 
[quote name='camoor']Agnosticism usually signals to me that the person doesn't care. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm confused as to why it would be a source of pride. Course - I never did get that 'slacker' thing.[/QUOTE]

Yeah Agnostic to me just means = secularist

But sad to say, most colleges are breeding more smug, atheist types.
 
[quote name='camoor']Agnosticism usually signals to me that the person doesn't care. Nothing wrong with that, but I'm confused as to why it would be a source of pride. Course - I never did get that 'slacker' thing.[/QUOTE]

I wear it with pride because as I said IMO its a huge arrogance to claim you know the answer to such a grand question. It seems most of the world is religious so they automatically do that, and most others who are not seem to consider themselves atheist or simply do not care(my wife).
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']I wear it with pride because as I said IMO its a huge arrogance to claim you know the answer to such a grand question. It seems most of the world is religious so they automatically do that, and most others who are not seem to consider themselves atheist or simply do not care(my wife).[/QUOTE]

This. I'm not atheist or agnostic by any means, but I agree. Just live and let live without being a dick.
 
[quote name='SgtMurder']Yeah Agnostic to me just means = secularist

But sad to say, most colleges are breeding more smug, atheist types.[/QUOTE]

It does not take college to make a smug atheist or theist. It just takes someone with a big mouth an opinion.
 
The term atheist doesn't have to refer to someone who knows there is no god, but simply one who doesn't believe in a god.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']It is indeed sad that saying you are agnostic has become like a dirty word. I am one of the only people I know that wears that bad with pride, most shirk from it because both Christians and Atheists a like think your a coward. I just personally do not want to be guilty of an arrogance as great as claiming I know the meaning of life or how we all got here or I guess how it DID NOT happen.[/QUOTE]

I've spent far too much time when people find out that I'm agnostic that it doesn't mean I'm "a fence sitter", or "someone who is just looking for the right religion", or even someone who doesn't give enough of a damn to give it any thought. In reality, I've probably spent a lot more time thinking about it than a lot of religious people. I've just come to a different conclusion as to the eternal question, and it's one I've grown quite comfortable with.

I do really like what Dr. Eagleman says, but as I told my sister, the word "possibilian" sounds like the offspring of a reptile and opossum. Not something I want to picture.
 
[quote name='Clak']He could have easily gotten this down to a minute by simply saying "You can't prove there's no god, so nyuh".

edit- I also don't agree with his idea that whatever we believe, we believe because that's what we're taught by our culture. That doesn't explain people who reject whatever religion they're taught to believe by their family/culture. Culture in the south is predominately religious, and Christian at that, so then according to him, anyone growing up here should follow that pattern.[/QUOTE]

He's using a widely accepted generalization. He has an audience to entertain, he can't chime in with, "except for those cases where someone growing up finds a reason to separate themselves from those values etc...." every minute to cover his bases.

But yeah, his overall message is one I think a lot of atheists/agnostics already agree with. He's just arguing about labels -- but his explanations are all well articulated and clear cut. I think some people could learn a thing or two from watching this.

Of course, I'd wager most strongly religious people would just get hung up on a small detail in his lecture and beat around the actual logic. And I always say "strongly" religious because 99% of the labeled theists I know lead no more religious of a life then I do. Being a Christian in America means nothing. Sometimes I still say I'm protestant to people because it means absolutely nothing beyond "yeah I dress nice on christmas eve to go to church with the family."
 
If he can't make his audience aware of exceptions to what he's saying then he shouldn't be saying it at all as it gives a false impression that one will always conform to the culture of their area. He's getting into sociological areas and I don't think he should have.
 
[quote name='Clak']If he can't make his audience aware of exceptions to what he's saying then he shouldn't be saying it at all as it gives a false impression that one will always conform to the culture of their area. He's getting into sociological areas and I don't think he should have.[/QUOTE]

Who knows, maybe he truly does believe every single person in Iran is Islamic. I'd give him the benefit of the doubt and assume he's just being a good presenter though. It wasn't really a science lecture for scientists -- it's about his cute little term he made for himself. He probably said something not 100% correct about a story from scripture too but I think the audience understood the point.
 
[quote name='Cantatus']I've spent far too much time when people find out that I'm agnostic that it doesn't mean I'm "a fence sitter", or "someone who is just looking for the right religion", or even someone who doesn't give enough of a damn to give it any thought. In reality, I've probably spent a lot more time thinking about it than a lot of religious people. I've just come to a different conclusion as to the eternal question, and it's one I've grown quite comfortable with.[/QUOTE]

No, by the very definition of the term agnostic you haven't come to any conclusion.

As my favorite philosophy teacher would have said, that's cute and all, but shouldn't man strive for more?

Facing the eternal question and saying 'fuck if I know' is hardly the stuff dreams are made of.
 
[quote name='camoor']No, by the very definition of the term agnostic you haven't come to any conclusion.

As my favorite philosophy teacher would have said, that's cute and all, but shouldn't man strive for more?

Facing the eternal question and saying 'fuck if I know' is hardly the stuff dreams are made of.[/QUOTE]
That's a very Nietzsche concept.
 
[quote name='camoor']No, by the very definition of the term agnostic you haven't come to any conclusion.

As my favorite philosophy teacher would have said, that's cute and all, but shouldn't man strive for more?

Facing the eternal question and saying 'fuck if I know' is hardly the stuff dreams are made of.[/QUOTE]

I most certainly have come to a conclusion, and who are you to say I haven't? And my conclusion is hardly "fuck if I know", but that is exactly the type of minimalization I refer to in my previous post and likely also what Magus speaks of.
 
[quote name='Cantatus']I most certainly have come to a conclusion, and who are you to say I haven't? And my conclusion is hardly "fuck if I know", but that is exactly the type of minimalization I refer to in my previous post and likely also what Magus speaks of.[/QUOTE]

Exactly. I spend more time on the subject of religion then anyone I know. I have read a lot of books, watched many documentaries and even taken classes on both philosophy and religion in my spare time just for fun. Heck it drives my wife nuts then when we get people from the local churches going door to door preaching that I do not simply tell them to go away, I sit outside and not just let them question me but I question them back. 90% of the time it results in them getting flustered because they do not have the answers to the questions I ask, so they leave and come back with a pastor(whom then gets flustered). I am not claiming this makes me an expert or better then anyone else, just that I hardly sit on the fence with a fuck if I know attitude. I try and educate myself on the subject and from that education went from being a Christian, to an Atheist to an Agnostic who recognizes with our current set of information it is impossible to believe in any world religion, but it is impossible to disprove the concept of God as well. I think God is highly unlikely to exist, but that does not mean I am willing to stand up and say its certain.
 
I guess that's where I disagree, because most conclusions I come to are based on hte likeliness of something being true, simply put it's the odds i'm worried about. Based on simple logic, it's highly unlikely that there is a god, that's all I need personally. Life is simply too short to believe in anything that is so unlikely to be true. To me agnostics are simply either afraid to commit one way or the other, or that simply need definitive proof one way or the other and not simply the odds of either side being right. A lot of philosophical types seem to be this way.
 
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