Wall Street Protesters

[quote name='MSI Magus']But do you think that someone that sits around watching dancing with the stars and playing Xbox is as well informed as someone that reads the nytimes and reuters on a daily basis?
[/QUOTE]

Of course not.

I'm just saying it's self selection bias. The person that chooses to spend time each day reading the NY Times does so because they're already more inquisitive, intellectual, introspective etc.

It's the chicken or the egg argument. It's hard to argue that reading the NY Times makes one more intellectual or introspective etc. It's more likely that they choose to read the Times (or whatever) because they were interested in it as they were already introspective etc.

Self selection bias is a very common problem in social science research, and just in general when trying to make causal statements about social phenomenon.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']I think we are arguing two different things. I understand that there has always been a level of control in the media, but more importantly I understand that many news sources have an agenda.

All I was arguing in my initial post is that if you do not educate yourself on the issues then nothing will change no matter how hard you fight. As I said before these protestors could create a list of a thousand demands and have every last one of them meet......but once dispersed how will they ever know that those changes remain if they just go home and play Halo?[/QUOTE]
I don't completely disagree with you, but this is pretty typical of many social movements. We can't expect the various OWS groups to have the same kind of organization as teabaggers because OWS doesn't operate on astroturf. Also, having an organic movement like this means that there are going to be a myriad of reasons for different people to participate that are from different sides of the political spectrum.

Your criticism is very valid though. I've actually thought about this a lot and the problem that people have is that they don't pass the purity test, but that's an impossible bar to reach. The occupiers aren't all intellectuals, academics, and serious activists, nor should they be. This level of activism is very important though and to make social change, you need to act upon the problem from different angles. There's a place for purists, preachers, participants, supporters, etc in the struggle. Activism isn't just about marching and having a list of demands; it's also about praxis and trying to be revolutionary in the spaces you inhabit as well.

I'm no activist, but I also talk about important social issues where ever I am. Spreading the word is an important piece of the struggle, just as participating in a demonstration is.

I'm not saying you're wrong, but most people just don't want to be radical activists...the pay is simply shit.
 
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[quote name='dohdough']Developing story:
Citibank customers closing accounts as a form of protests are arrested in NYC.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TH3kiaJ1-c8&feature=share

The guy that does the arrest is a plain-clothes officer.

update: Everyone in the bank was locked in and the woman outside is tryng to get everyone's names for legal representation. Around 20 people were arrested.

http://www.dailykos.com/story/2011/...ast-19-arrested-at-Citibank-branch?via=blog_1[/QUOTE]

How in the hell can you justify arresting people for closing a bank account?
 
I guess it was an organized protest and there was a huge(1000 people) group of protesters outside. There isn't anything concrete about what was going on inside the bank according to the dailykos article.

Either way, the US is hosed and shit like this has been happening for over a century in regards to capital using the army/police in this manner. Only in the old days, they would shoot people down where they stood.

But to go back to our discussion before: When people go home and play xbox when they are willing to put their bodies on the line, it doesn't bother me if they don't understand the minutae of policy or aren't able to fully articulate their grievances.

edit: I'm still waiting for some solid news about the arrests. It happened earlier this afternoon and is starting to go viral.

edit2: I hope everyone arrested sues the shit out of Citibank for false inprisonment. Now THAT would be pure awesomeness.
 
[quote name='dohdough']I guess it was an organized protest and there was a huge(1000 people) group of protesters outside. There isn't anything concrete about what was going on inside the bank according to the dailykos article.

Either way, the US is hosed and shit like this has been happening for over a century in regards to capital using the army/police in this manner. Only in the old days, they would shoot people down where they stood.

But to go back to our discussion before: When people go home and play xbox when they are willing to put their bodies on the line, it doesn't bother me if they don't understand the minutae of policy or aren't able to fully articulate their grievances.

edit: I'm still waiting for some solid news about the arrests. It happened earlier this afternoon and is starting to go viral.

edit2: I hope everyone arrested sues the shit out of Citibank for false inprisonment. Now THAT would be pure awesomeness.[/QUOTE]

Again I think your partially missunderstanding me. I am glad these protests are happening, they need to. Hell if anything I think people need to get more forceful or even violent(I cant imagine letting myself be beat or pepper sprayed without a fight when I am within my legal rights). I am just saying that its hard for me to believe that true change will happen in our current system unless people first change themselves.
 
[quote name='MSI Magus']Again I think your partially missunderstanding me. I am glad these protests are happening, they need to. Hell if anything I think people need to get more forceful or even violent(I cant imagine letting myself be beat or pepper sprayed without a fight when I am within my legal rights). I am just saying that its hard for me to believe that true change will happen in our current system unless people first change themselves.[/QUOTE]
Oh I'm not saying that you don't support the movement. I just wanted to go deeper into my reasons for support.

Although, I do find it extremely interesting that you think they should use more force considering how you pride yourself on your less aggressive ideological tendancies.;)
 
i went to an occupy protest for my college town. there was some tea partiers across the street with signs saying things like:

"bush didn't invade uganda"

i don't even know
 
apparently our good pal Micheal Moore was out with the OWS folks last night. For some reason or another the 99% couldn't figure out that he's part of the 1%.

America is saved.
 
[quote name='nasum']apparently our good pal Micheal Moore was out with the OWS folks last night. For some reason or another the 99% couldn't figure out that he's part of the 1%.

America is saved.[/QUOTE]
He's probably closer to the .1% and just because you're part of that group, doesn't mean you can't express and have solidarity with them. This is a peaceful protest(so-far) and not a violent revolution. Moore isn't joining to save himself from being thrown against a wall. I don't see what your point is unless you're giving him and the movement an unrealistic purity test.
 
[quote name='nasum']apparently our good pal Micheal Moore was out with the OWS folks last night. For some reason or another the 99% couldn't figure out that he's part of the 1%.

America is saved.[/QUOTE]

Conservative logic

Your rich you should act like your rich
Your poor you should still back the rich because trust us one day you will be rich too, the policies that benefit us just happen to benefit you! *wink* *wink*

Who cares if the guy is rich or not, he fights for causes of the poor and thats all that matters. Look at FDR, the guy did more for the poor and middle class then just about anyone....yet he was a filthy rich guy that had his own peers turn on him for his "class warfare".
 
Those of you that think this flea party- "protest the symptoms, not the causes" - mass puppet show is cute and support it can now count yourselves lucky to have the Communist and Nazi parties throwing their support behind it as well.


The tea party was never that lucky, despite what many of you hoped.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Those of you that think this flea party- "protest the symptoms, not the causes" - mass puppet show is cute and support it can now count yourselves lucky to have the Communist and Nazi parties throwing their support behind it as well.


The tea party was never that lucky, despite what many of you hoped.[/QUOTE]

Says a lot when even the communists and nazis think the banks suck too.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Fighting for the causes of the poor... while sleeping in a bed of money.[/QUOTE]
Only women can fight the patriarchy, only people of color can fight racism, and troops can only be pro-war.:roll:

[quote name='thrustbucket']Those of you that think this flea party- "protest the symptoms, not the causes" - mass puppet show is cute and support it can now count yourselves lucky to have the Communist and Nazi parties throwing their support behind it as well.


The tea party was never that lucky, despite what many of you hoped.[/QUOTE]
You wouldn't know a symptom if it harassed your wife or a cause brainwashed you into being a collaborator.

If you think that Nazi sympatheties and politically aligned groups didn't support the teabaggers in an official capacity or not, you're more deluded than you've led us to believe. Not to mention that Ron Paul has the official support of Stormfront and other similarly minded groups, but you don't say shit about them, do you?

As for the communists: this isn't the 1950's anymore and the mere mention of communists and communism doesn't scare any rational or educated person. It's a simple dogwhistle fear-mongering relic of the cold war that the power elite use to keep morons like you in line.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Only women can fight the patriarchy, only people of color can fight racism, and troops can only be pro-war.:roll:[/QUOTE]

Can they do all that while sleeping in a bed of money?
 
[quote name='elessar123']Says a lot when even the communists and nazis think the banks suck too.[/QUOTE]
Well, let's be accurate about their grievances. Communists, in general, would be against the banks because it's pretty integral to its philosophy. The fact that one communist group, as the official representation of communists in the US or not, officially supporting OWS, is pretty much a non-story. The mere mention of communists is meant to illicit a negative response to the movement and deligitimize it as a radically militant group, which is the furthest thing from the truth.

The Nazi support is more interesting because they're not concerned about the banks fucking everything up as long as the white nationalists are the ones doing the fucking. What this group believes is that it's the Jewish bankers that is fucking things up for them as well as a way to get rid of what they percieve to be the oppressive Jewish element within our institutions.

Either way, the occupy movement, as a whole, is pretty non-violent and none of the local movements will allow or promote physical violence of any kind. I'm guessing that the various Occupy groups will discuss this in general assembly and have a formal response to the endorsements. They'll probably accept the communist one and not the Nazi one, but it'll still be up to each local chapter.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Can they do all that while sleeping in a bed of money?[/QUOTE]
How about you explain why they can't instead of being a dumb asshole.
 
[quote name='dohdough']How about you explain why they can't instead of being a dumb asshole.[/QUOTE]

Did I say they can't?

Moore can champion for the poor while sleeping in a bed of money.

Just like a politician can champion for "family values" while having sexual relations with his young, male intern behind his wife's back.
 
[quote name='dohdough']
As for the communists: this isn't the 1950's anymore and the mere mention of communists and communism doesn't scare any rational or educated person. It's a simple dogwhistle fear-mongering relic of the cold war that the power elite use to keep morons like you in line.[/QUOTE]

Sounds like someone has a very poorly kept secret....
 
[quote name='dohdough']Ron Paul has the official support of Stormfront and other similarly minded groups, but you don't say shit about them, do you?[/QUOTE]

Sounds like thrustbucket has a poorly kept secret.

Come on, kids. Let's leave the derailing and building of bridges made of straw men across logical chasms to UncleBob. You two are better than this and you know it.

thrust - don't be so silly so as to pick out the fringe of the fringe of society and use it to discredit a protest movement. you're better than that.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Sounds like someone has a very poorly kept secret....[/QUOTE]
Shyeah...commies are bad people that will rape your pets, make you eat veggies, and wear berets with red pins while doing it.

Oh, and I'm one of them! You better hide your pets and veggies!

That red glow in my avatar is symbolic for being commie red!:roll:

I swear, the level of herpatude today is simply blowing my mind.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']thrust - don't be so silly so as to pick out the fringe of the fringe of society and use it to discredit a protest movement. you're better than that.[/QUOTE]

Wow. No one minded when it happened with the Tea Party...
 
Myke,

thrust isn't better than that. Probably never was but certainly isn't now.

Anyway let us start a CAG con Bingo card.

A1) Liberal has a flush toilet? Hypocrite.

B2) Nazi-Commies liked puppies. Lol, librulcommienaizes.

Did I miss any?
 
Liberal logic

You're upset about concentration of wealth. You're standing next to a guy who represent exactly that. It's ok because he speaks out against what he represents. Then again, he only speaks and does very little with actions.

Fair enough.

I just enjoy MM's hypocrisy, especially when it's this blatant.

I'm fine with the point of the OWS folks, but god they're terrible at consistent messaging.
 
nasum,

You know there are times when you seem like a decent sort of fellow.

Then there are times when it is as if you aren't even writing in English.
 
[quote name='nasum']Liberal logic

You're upset about concentration of wealth. You're standing next to a guy who represent exactly that. It's ok because he speaks out against what he represents. Then again, he only speaks and does very little with actions.

Fair enough.

I just enjoy MM's hypocrisy, especially when it's this blatant.

I'm fine with the point of the OWS folks, but god they're terrible at consistent messaging.[/QUOTE]

Michael Moore makes movies. As far as I know, he's not a hedge fund manager.

His message is the same and fully consistent with what he was saying back when he was a got-no-money indie filmmaker putting together Roger and Me (which was about how corporate interests had destroyed his town in the pursuit of profit margins).

I say he would be a far greater hypocrite if he was say, the kind of shrill, bloated "et tu, fatty?" blowhard like Dick Morris has become in the past 10+ years. All of his fame and fortune have come as a result of him turning his back on the Clintons and just taking a dump on them to the delight of Fox News.

So if Moore was absent, he'd be a greater hypocrite - one of the "well, I got mine, so see y'all later!" sort.

That his message remains the same while his fortune has increased doesn't speak of hypocrisy to me at all. To be liberal, to respect the middle class, to disavow the oppressive hedonism of the financial sector and the ultra wealthy, and to point out how the Republicans have convinced half the US population to speak out against their own self-interests (and do so consistently and vehemently), and to exalt the idea that anyone putting in 40 a week should deserve a modest standard of living. That is his message, and it exists independent of his net worth.

To disavow his arguments for his wealth is to do the same thing to Warren Buffett. We get that sort of inane "well, if you want to pay more in taxes, just cut a check" tripe from the UncleBobs here. But nasum you, for certain, know better than that.

Moore would be a hypocrite if he stopped protesting, not because he is protesting.
 
[quote name='nasum']Liberal logic

You're upset about concentration of wealth. You're standing next to a guy who represent exactly that. It's ok because he speaks out against what he represents. Then again, he only speaks and does very little with actions.

Fair enough.

I just enjoy MM's hypocrisy, especially when it's this blatant.

I'm fine with the point of the OWS folks, but god they're terrible at consistent messaging.[/QUOTE]

Liberal in America is still right of middle. Meaning that we all believe it's OK to make money, and alot of it.

It's just not cool to cheat the system, to disenfranchise and bully employees into depressed wages and bullshit benefit-free part-time jobs, and use govt bailouts to enhance executive paychecks.

AFAIK Michael Moore never receieved a government bailout, never orchestrated a financial ponzi scheme, and never raided the pension funds of working folks. He earned his money as an entertainer, and that's A-OK in my book.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']To disavow his arguments for his wealth is to do the same thing to Warren Buffett. We get that sort of inane "well, if you want to pay more in taxes, just cut a check" tripe from the UncleBobs here. But nasum you, for certain, know better than that.

Moore would be a hypocrite if he stopped protesting, not because he is protesting.[/QUOTE]

Yeah.

Speaking for myself, I don't hate the rich, but I don't hero-worship them either. What I do have a problem with is the dishonesty, fraud, and exploitation of the working class.
 
[quote name='camoor']I'm missing the relevance of your link.[/QUOTE]

I'm not surprised.

It doesn't fit the narrative you've convinced yourself of.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I'm not surprised.

It doesn't fit the narrative you've convinced yourself of.[/QUOTE]

Michael Moore took a loan from a bank? What do you think - because people speak out against the excesses of banks they just bury their money in a hole? Are you that much of a child?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Did I say they can't?

Moore can champion for the poor while sleeping in a bed of money.

Just like a politician can champion for "family values" while having sexual relations with his young, male intern behind his wife's back.[/QUOTE]

That's a terrible comparison. Having money doesn't make someone a hypocrite for trying to help the poor. Like someone else mentioned, that's like calling a civil rights activist a hypocrite for being white.

I'm not particularly fond of Michael Moore, but the idea that someone can't support a cause just because they fall in a higher tax bracket is ignorant.
 
[quote name='camoor']Michael Moore took a loan from a bank? What do you think - because people speak out against the excesses of banks they just bury their money in a hole? Are you that much of a child?[/QUOTE]

Taxpayers gave money to the government.
The government gave money to Goldman Sachs.
Goldman Sachs gave money to Moore.

Follow the money.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Taxpayers gave money to the government.
The government gave money to Goldman Sachs.
Goldman Sachs gave money to Moore.

Follow the money.[/QUOTE]

Now I know why you're on my ignore list.

Let's follow the money.
Taxpayers give money to the government.
The government gives money to Pakistan as our ally on the war on terror.
Some of that money finds its way to Taliban fighters on the Pakistani side of the Afghan border.
Therefore, all of us are funding the 21st Century version of the Huns.
 
[quote name='nasum']Liberal logic

You're upset about concentration of wealth. You're standing next to a guy who represent exactly that. It's ok because he speaks out against what he represents. Then again, he only speaks and does very little with actions.

Fair enough.

I just enjoy MM's hypocrisy, especially when it's this blatant.

I'm fine with the point of the OWS folks, but god they're terrible at consistent messaging.[/QUOTE]

We're NOT upset about people making millions. We're upset that people are making millions and corporations are making billions while crushing the little guy, destroying the environment, and corrupting all levels of government. Last time I checked, Michael Moore isn't doing everything he possibly can to move his productions to a country where the tax rate and wages are low and environmental regulations don't exist.

Michael Moore makes a lot of money from making movies. He's not destroying the drinking water in Pennsylvania while fracking for natural gas. He's not selling you a movie ticket and then denying you entry because you didn't fill out the credit card receipt properly.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Now I know why you're on my ignore list.

Let's follow the money.
Taxpayers give money to the government.
The government gives money to Pakistan as our ally on the war on terror.
Some of that money finds its way to Taliban fighters on the Pakistani side of the Afghan border.
Therefore, all of us are funding the 21st Century version of the Huns.[/QUOTE]

:rofl:

:applause:
 
[quote name='depascal22']Now I know why you're on my ignore list.

Let's follow the money.
Taxpayers give money to the government.
The government gives money to Pakistan as our ally on the war on terror.
Some of that money finds its way to Taliban fighters on the Pakistani side of the Afghan border.
Therefore, all of us are funding the 21st Century version of the Huns.[/QUOTE]

Isn't this the very same logic that is used to explain why we were attacked on 9/11 and why we need to re-evaluate our foreign policy?
 
Speaking of logic... Government gives money to the banks, banks give money to executives... rabble rabble rabble.

Government gives money to the banks, bank gives money to Moore so Moore can stand outside the bank and shout out "Where'd the money go?" and... well, that's cool.
 
Did Government corrupt corporations or did corporations corrupt government? As far as I have seen giant companies have always behaved badly, government has not. Most of the negative actions government takes are not done for shits and giggles, they are done because some big corporation or other interest group influenced them.

This is what conservatives miss(and what bob being bob will continue to miss). Goverment never has and most likely never will be the problem. The corruption of government by outside groups is the problem. But hey, corporations only act badly because of the government or some such nonsense so lets just give corporations more freedom and shrink the government and things will just magically work out. Maybe this time the government will corrupt businesses and we will see Corporations taking care of the sick, delivering the mail and protecting the nations citizens! God bless those saintly corporations.
 
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[quote name='MSI Magus']Did Government corrupt corporations or did corporations corrupt government? As far as I have seen giant companies have always behaved badly, government has not. Most of the negative actions government takes are not done for shits and giggles, they are done because some big corporation or other interest group influenced them.

This is what conservatives miss(and what bob being bob will continue to miss). Goverment never has and most likely never will be the problem. The corruption of government by outside groups is the problem. But hey, corporations only act badly because of the government or some such nonsense so lets just give corporations more freedom and shrink the government and thinks will just magically work out. Maybe this time the government will corrupt businesses and we will see Corporations taking care of the sick, delivering the mail and protecting the nations citizens! God bless those saintly corporations.[/QUOTE]

It's funny because you think this is true.

I guess, in your world's history, before "giant companies" existed, all government was good and holy?
 
train-derail-3.jpg
 
Nailed it.

I'm trying my absolute damndest to stay out of this mess. The only consolation is that there will be others. I'll just say a big 'thank you' to depascal22 for quoting that and preserving it for all time. For all time.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']It's funny because you think this is true.

I guess, in your world's history, before "giant companies" existed, all government was good and holy?[/QUOTE]

No. But its rare that Goverment does screwed up things for reasons other then corruption from a third party(generally the rich). I was thinking about this while walking my dogs. Goverement is actually a lot like the way many people treat food. People all to often look at a guy eating sausage gravy for breakfast, three slices of meat lovers large pizza for lunch and a steak for dinner and say "eat less fat ass" when the truth of the matter is the guy could eat more...he is just eating the wrong things. The problem is not that people eat too much, its that they dont regulate at all. Too much government is rarely the problem, instead again its that we are not properly regulating what we do. Just like with food if we replaced that fatty steak(war) with some letil soup(health care) we could actually eat far more.

Also while walking this Anti Flag song came on and I couldnt help but think its the perfect song for the OWS movement. It aint about just corporations, its about politicians, government or any other entity that is a "Criminal With Protection of the Law". But again Im talking to Bob....so I guess this all comes down to liberals hate the rich and love goverment, not the truth which is people are upset at government, at corporations, the fed and everyone else thats corrupt right now.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0BGXUBClEi4
 
MSI - It isn't that govt is the problem. Govt works pretty well on the small scale, it's when politicians mess with govt to their own personal advantage. This of course happens on both sides of the aisle. It's just seemingly more obvious with (R), though how one can't tear their hair out with this administration is beyond me.

Note, I think that last bit is a bit of a myth, that your average (D) was upset about all the Bush nonsense but has quieted down because their guy is in the White House. I just think it isn't getting as much coverage for whatever reason.

Can't recall who said it, but sometimes I sound like I'm not typing in English? I'm an ESL kid... When I go to rage the mother's tongue comes out and things get a little backwards.
 
I'm republican, so I hate democrats
I hate republicans, because i'm democrat

I hate american's because they're...
American
 
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