What do you believe in?

[quote name='willardhaven']My biggest problem with religion is that it allows some of its followers to justify things like melting children in the Gaza Strip and Afghanistan.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately, for every person who thinks their religion impels them to love their neighbor, there's another who thinks that as the chosen people they can do whatever they like to their neighbors.
It's about as schizophrenic as the Bible itself: with Jesus spreading love and peace and Yahweh commanding Joshua to drive the Canaanites from the promised land by the blade of his sword.
 
[quote name='rabbitt']Reasonable Christians don't believe the rubbish he, and all Creationists, like to spout.[/QUOTE]

Im sorry guys, but this one just made me upset. I mean, this post reeks of an
excuse to insult creationists without doing one link of research in the process.
 
[quote name='Filler2001']Im sorry guys, but this one just made me upset. I mean, this post reeks of an
excuse to insult creationists without doing one link of research in the process.[/QUOTE]

Are there researchers in the field of Creationism?
 
[quote name='von551']What's the evidence? The fact that more "evolved" species are found in older layers of earth than more simpler species in newer layers in earth? The fact that a live species of worm is found to be devolved from fossilized species? The fact that human foot prints are found fossilized in dinosaur footprints? The fact that there isn't one evidence of macro-evolution in the fossil records? The fact that there are species walking and swimming on earth that should be extinct because they're millions of years old (coelacanth, etc.)? This PAGE alone is enough for me to know evolution has some major holes to fill before anyone should buy into it.[/QUOTE]
OK I'm a little tired and a little drunk but I'll comment on some of this.

First of all there is tons of evidence for evolution. The most common example is the birds Darwin studied. They were split by water and evolved into separate species (with beak shapes varying depending on food sources).

Secondly two of your points here talk about how evolved something is. It sounds like by evolved you mean more complex which is not the same thing. It isn't safe to say humans are more evolved than monkeys since we have both been evolving for the same amount of time from a common ancestor even though you might think we are more complex. Evolution determines what is most fit for survival not what seems the most complex. When you say worms have 'devolved' it would probably be more accurate to say they evolved into a form more similar to their ancestors.

The human footprint with dinosaur footprints is BS.

There is fossil evidence for macro evolution but I'm too lazy to find it right now.

The million year old species might not have needed to evolve much to survive thanks to being very adaptable. Can you name a reason they should be extinct other than "they are very old"?
 
And it always goes into evolution. Ive talked to my priest about evolution before, as well as dinosaurs, and he argues youd have to be silly to not accept that; but in no way should influence anyones beliefs in God, should they have any
 
[quote name='StealthNinjaScyther']I think von551 hit most of the major creationist bullet points. I don't really have the time to address them all right now. But the human footprints in dino footprints lie? C'mon, do you really think scientists are that stupid? If that were actually true do you think that they would all ignore it?

That's what really gets me about creationists. They actually believe that there is huge conspiracy being promoted by the entire field of biology to suppress the 'truth' about evolution.[/QUOTE]

Actually, when one scientist was confronted with this finding his only response would be that time travel must be possible! wow, talk about denial. If this finding was BS, why did scientists fly straight to the site after Dr. Patton presented evidence at a conference and destroy footprints with metal bars? Even if it wasn't a human footprint, you have "scientists" destroying fossils of the earth's natural history! How is this true science? How is this unbiased observation? They destroyed what they feared, man and dinosaurs living together to keep their evolution bubble intact, sounds corrupt to me.

Have you never seen "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"? plenty of scientists, not creationists, that lost their jobs just hinting at the possibility of Intelligent Design, not even mentioning God or anything religious. Granted, any documentary can paint virtually any picture, but when you have real scientists, ones unwilling to go on camera and Richard Dawkins giving his opinions validating this documentary, I find that affirming in the allegations. How about this ARTICLE about a biased culture in the science community towards anyone opposing evolution? Doesn't sound like science discovering the truth, but rather trying to defend the ignorance and arrogance of evolution.
 
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[quote name='rabbitt']There are so many holes in your argument against science, and yet you place your bet on something you even admit to be superstition.

I've watched nearly every video of Richard Dawkins that is available, so I'd like to see proof of what you claim he said.[/QUOTE]

I've never admitted to superstition, but a faith in the evidence our world presents us, not an empty theory of evolution. You on the other hand have way more faith than me believing that we all evolved from literally nothing that somehow billions of years ago turned into something, then created a big bang, then evolved into this perfect only life-providing rock we live on, and then evolved a species as intelligent as us. now that's superstition buddy.

So you've never watched "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"? Your boy Richard Dawkins basically claims to be Scientologist in this movie by claiming aliens are the only reasonable explanation for I.D. Even though there have never ever been any scientific evidence of aliens by SETI or any of the telescopes that can see billions of light years away.

Side note: Did you know the literal wording of "created" in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" means to make something from nothing? It's also used for the creation of animals and man later on in the chapter and no where else in the Bible. Isn't this what evolution is trying to prove? That something magically came from nothing without a God to do it? Or that somehow matter/anti-matter were always in existence? Interesting...
 
[quote name='looploop']Unfortunately, for every person who thinks their religion impels them to love their neighbor, there's another who thinks that as the chosen people they can do whatever they like to their neighbors.
It's about as schizophrenic as the Bible itself: with Jesus spreading love and peace and Yahweh commanding Joshua to drive the Canaanites from the promised land by the blade of his sword.[/QUOTE]

God commanded Israelites to destroy cultures that were dispersed at the Tower Of Babel and rebelled against his teachings. Jesus did not come for peace, but to bring man kind to salvation. True peace will come when a new earth and heaven are created and Satan has no influence on us anymore.

49"I have come to bring fire on the earth, and how I wish it were already kindled! 50But I have a baptism to undergo, and how distressed I am until it is completed! 51Do you think I came to bring peace on earth? No, I tell you, but division. 52From now on there will be five in one family divided against each other, three against two and two against three. 53They will be divided, father against son and son against father, mother against daughter and daughter against mother, mother-in-law against daughter-in-law and daughter-in-law against mother-in-law."
 
[quote name='von551']I've never admitted to superstition, but a faith in the evidence our world presents us, not an empty theory of evolution. You on the other hand have way more faith than me believing that we all evolved from literally nothing that somehow billions of years ago turned into something, then created a big bang, then evolved into this perfect only life-providing rock we live on, and then evolved a species as intelligent as us. now that's superstition buddy.

So you've never watched "Expelled: No Intelligence Allowed"? Your boy Richard Dawkins basically claims to be Scientologist in this movie by claiming aliens are the only reasonable explanation for I.D. Even though there have never ever been any scientific evidence of aliens by SETI or any of the telescopes that can see billions of light years away.

Side note: Did you know the literal wording of "created" in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" means to make something from nothing? It's also used for the creation of animals and man later on in the chapter and no where else in the Bible. Isn't this what evolution is trying to prove? That something magically came from nothing without a God to do it? Or that somehow matter/anti-matter were always in existence? Interesting...[/QUOTE]

You *can't* be for real. You just can't be...
 
[quote name='Kirin Lemon']You *can't* be for real. You just can't be...[/QUOTE]

Although I am always surprised that people think like this character, it's a good thing he's here to provide people with an example of what a common religiously poisoned mind sounds like.

It's clear that he's been indoctrinated with a rigidly religious perspective since childhood. Only a person of deep religious belief can express a sheer disdain for fact, science, and truth to this extent.

I'm not entertained by, nor do I find it funny that there are people in 2009 who think that the earth is 10,000 years old. That's embarrassing and if you think this, you should be ashamed. Not only is it stupid thinking, it's dangerous.

His life must be a constant mirage where reality takes a backstage to persistent hallucination and schizophrenia. It's a wonder these people make it through a day.
 
[quote name='DrFoo']First of all there is tons of evidence for evolution. The most common example is the birds Darwin studied. They were split by water and evolved into separate species (with beak shapes varying depending on food sources).

There is fossil evidence for macro evolution but I'm too lazy to find it right now.[/QUOTE]

maybe you should sober up and do some real research if you can't even think off the top of your head one example of macro evolution in the fossil records, the one thing most needed to make it's case.

what you're referring to in darwin's finches is adaptation,micro evolution or natural selection. These are not a different species or kind of bird that evolved, but groups that have adapted to their environment. By rule a different species can't interbreed, yet the finches of the Galapagos that are classified as different species have been documented interbreeding. huh, so either they're not different species or science is wrong about the possibility of interbreeding. this is very elementary knowledge in the science world, again do some real research of your own.

It's in all animals DNA to be able to adapt to a certain degree to prevent extinction. Humans have it too, one great example is the ability to consume dairy products. We're ALL as adults supposed to be lactose intolerant after we're done nursing. Western European dairy farmers began to become genetically lactose tolerant gradually. That spread around the world and now the majority of the world can ingest dairy products. Now are we a new species than the europeans before they were lactose tolerant as adults? Or are races (african, native americans, etc.) a different species because they're less able, or unable, respectively, to be able to ingest dairy products as adults? I didn't think so either...
 
[quote name='rabbitt']Although I am always surprised that people think like this character, it's a good thing he's here to provide people with an example of what a common religiously poisoned mind sounds like.

It's clear that he's been indoctrinated with a rigidly religious perspective since childhood. Only a person of deep religious belief can express a sheer disdain for fact, science, and truth to this extent.

I'm not entertained by, nor do I find it funny that there are people in 2009 who think that the earth is 10,000 years old. That's embarrassing and if you think this, you should be ashamed. Not only is it stupid thinking, it's dangerous.

His life must be a constant mirage where reality takes a backstage to persistent hallucination and schizophrenia. It's a wonder these people make it through a day.[/QUOTE]

i can appreciate your ignorance and inability to form an intelligent rebuttal of proof to what you believe as truth by just insulting my research. You on the other hand unknowingly support scientists with a disdain for true science by only believing what they want and chastising anyone with something contradicting to the theory of evolution.
 
[quote name='von551']Side note: Did you know the literal wording of "created" in Genesis 1:1 "In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth" means to make something from nothing? It's also used for the creation of animals and man later on in the chapter and no where else in the Bible. Isn't this what evolution is trying to prove? That something magically came from nothing without a God to do it? Or that somehow matter/anti-matter were always in existence? Interesting...[/QUOTE]


Evolution explains how life changes over time, not how it started.

I cannot understand why so many creationist idiots don't understand this. It takes a single fucking sentence to explain it.
 
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[quote name='Filler2001']And it always goes into evolution. Ive talked to my priest about evolution before, as well as dinosaurs, and he argues youd have to be silly to not accept that; but in no way should influence anyones beliefs in God, should they have any[/QUOTE]

sadly enough, alot of priests and pastors compromise into evolution as well because it's more socially accepted. they trust the word of man over the Word of God, the Bible. You can't believe Genesis 1 and see distinct days of creation and also believe evolution. You either believe the Bible or you don't, priest or not. My pastor believes in young earth and creation in six days and the bible speaks frequently of dinosaurs (dragons) with descriptions of behemoths. And there are cave drawings and figurines by native Americans depicting accurate recreations of brontosaurus, stegosaurus, mammoths, etc.
LINK
 
1. When a more-robust theory comes along, scientists will embrace it. Do not think for a moment that Intelligent Design (aka Creationism) is that theory. It is not science, it is anti-science (and anti-reason, for that matter).

2. You're right that it is one or the other (Evolution or Creation), and plenty of people attempt to compromise the two (the brilliant scientist Gould, for instance, and his NOMA).

3. You're wrong that evolution is more easily digested by the society at large. Evolution is common sense amongst the more intellectual and educated groups in America, but right now it seems that the country as a whole is about split.

4. I do not quote you or attempt to refute your fantastic claims because this would seem to give some legitimacy to your argument. I don't want anyone to think that anything you've said has been worth reading.

5. I want to thank you for providing an excellent example of what goes on in many fundamental churches across America and in the minds of the many indoctrinated people. Religion has been used to promote racism, hate, war, famine, violence, masochism, witch trials, 9/11, homophobia, xenophobia, fratricide, child abuse, rape, etc and it is people like you that are determined to blast the next year back into the stone age with a resume like this. By keeping the people dumb, the Church is more able to control them in every faction of their lives, and it is very apparent from what you say that they are good at what they do.
 
[quote name='von551']God commanded Israelites to destroy cultures that were dispersed at the Tower Of Babel and rebelled against his teachings. Jesus did not come for peace, but to bring man kind to salvation. True peace will come when a new earth and heaven are created and Satan has no influence on us anymore.
[/QUOTE]


1: I referred particularly to Joshua 28: “Joshua smote all of the country of the hills, and of the south, and of the vale, and of the springs, and all their kings: he left none remaining, but utterly destroyed all that breathed, as the Lord God of Israel commanded.”
Though it seems you agree that Yahweh issued genocidal commands to his followers.

2: Matthew 22:35: "And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself."
That's close enough to spreading love and peace for me. But your quote continues to illustrate my original point, that it's little wonder that the bible inspires both monsters and wonderful people.
 
[quote name='von551']sadly enough, alot of priests and pastors compromise into evolution as well because it's more socially accepted. they trust the word of man over the Word of God, the Bible. You can't believe Genesis 1 and see distinct days of creation and also believe evolution. You either believe the Bible or you don't, priest or not. My pastor believes in young earth and creation in six days and the bible speaks frequently of dinosaurs (dragons) with descriptions of behemoths. And there are cave drawings and figurines by native Americans depicting accurate recreations of brontosaurus, stegosaurus, mammoths, etc.
LINK[/QUOTE]

So you believe in unicorns too? They're in the bible.

http://www.answersingenesis.org/articles/aid/v2/n1/unicorns-in-bible
 
[quote name='von551']maybe you should sober up and do some real research if you can't even think off the top of your head one example of macro evolution in the fossil records, the one thing most needed to make it's case.

what you're referring to in darwin's finches is adaptation,micro evolution or natural selection. These are not a different species or kind of bird that evolved, but groups that have adapted to their environment. By rule a different species can't interbreed, yet the finches of the Galapagos that are classified as different species have been documented interbreeding. huh, so either they're not different species or science is wrong about the possibility of interbreeding. this is very elementary knowledge in the science world, again do some real research of your own.

It's in all animals DNA to be able to adapt to a certain degree to prevent extinction. Humans have it too, one great example is the ability to consume dairy products. We're ALL as adults supposed to be lactose intolerant after we're done nursing. Western European dairy farmers began to become genetically lactose tolerant gradually. That spread around the world and now the majority of the world can ingest dairy products. Now are we a new species than the europeans before they were lactose tolerant as adults? Or are races (african, native americans, etc.) a different species because they're less able, or unable, respectively, to be able to ingest dairy products as adults? I didn't think so either...[/QUOTE]
You know what else is 'very elementary knowledge in the science world'? How to define which species are most evolved. Also the fact that you admitted that there was 'micro evolution' means that evolution did occur (and you believe in it haha got you). You're talking about speciation and macro evolution. Evolution includes changes in individual populations that don't create new species (one quick google search found "The process by which the genetic structure of populations changes over time.", which would include changes in beak structure).

One quick example of a transition fossil would be the archeoptryx. It shows both bird and dinosaur characteristics.

For someone who talks down to people as much as you do, you really don't know anything about the subject. Hell you don't even know the definition of a species. Different species can interbreed (tigers and lions, horses and donkeys etc), it's just their offspring that can't (although I think I heard of two mules mating before and producing offspring, but that's obviously extremely rare).

And I don't really feel like wasting any more time trying to convince you. If you are going to disagree with 95% of scientists you are going to disagree with me.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']It takes a single fucking sentence to explain it.[/QUOTE]

Did you consider he can't understand a single fucking sentence until he marries it?

EDIT: Before anybody poo poo the Word of God, please realize it is the second best indoctrination tool right after the Koran.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']Evolution explains how life changes over time, not how it started.
[/QUOTE]

It also does a really poor job of explaining WHY life started. Science, by design, can't answer such questions - unless we really were visited by Aliens that claimed they created us and had mountains of proof to be scrutinized by our scientists with them.

And, I actually don't think saying footprints next to dinosaur prints is possible proof of time travel is that big of a stretch. Most scientists believe time travel is possible. So if you believe it ever COULD be possible, then it's already happened.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']It also does a really poor job of explaining WHY life started. Science, by design, can't answer such questions - unless we really were visited by Aliens that claimed they created us and had mountains of proof to be scrutinized by our scientists with them.

And, I actually don't think saying footprints next to dinosaur prints is possible proof of time travel is that big of a stretch. Most scientists believe time travel is possible. So if you believe it ever COULD be possible, then it's already happened.[/QUOTE]

There are limits to evolution. Think of life as a very long chain. The first few links we can see very clearly. After those initial links, the next few links are rusted. Then, they become chipped and broken. After those, you start missing a few. Further down the line, the missing links outnumber the horribly damaged links. By the time you could get to the first link, it is nearly impossible to glean anything about it.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']It also does a really poor job of explaining WHY life started.[/quote]
"WHY life started"? What are you expecting, some cosmic "meaning of life" bullshit?

And, I actually don't think saying footprints next to dinosaur prints is possible proof of time travel is that big of a stretch. Most scientists believe time travel is possible.
Click to expand...
Okay, obvious troll is obvious. There is no fucking way.
 
[quote name='CoffeeEdge']"WHY life started"? What are you expecting, some cosmic "meaning of life" bullshit? [/quote]
No.
But it's pretty preposterous to expect anyone to really believe that the only reason anything alive exists in the first place is because sub-atomic particles bumped into each other for a long enough amount of time that it was somehow inevitable.
A man with a flowing beard somewhere in space 'zapping' things into existence is just as believable.


Okay, obvious troll is obvious. There is no fucking way.
Click to expand...

I wasn't trying to troll. I honestly didn't expect anyone to disagree.

Read up on latest discoveries in quantum physics. Scientists that outright claim time travel is impossible (even if just on a particle level) are growing more rare.

Here is a hint:
Einstein's theories are becoming harder and harder to explain for those that study partical and quantum physics. Try doing your own research, and don't accept text books in college as fact.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']
Most scientists believe time travel is possible. So if you believe it ever COULD be possible, then it's already happened.[/QUOTE]

Anybody that thinks that time travel is possible is a complete idiot. Time is not something that is physical and can be manipulated. Time is an idea thought up by humans.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']But it's pretty preposterous to expect anyone to really believe that the only reason anything alive exists in the first place is because sub-atomic particles bumped into each other for a long enough amount of time that it was somehow inevitable.[/quote]
Are you talking about the HOW, or the WHY? Make some fucking sense, man.

Read up on latest discoveries in quantum physics. Scientists that outright claim time travel is impossible (even if just on a particle level) are growing more rare.
Click to expand...
You actually think that a worthless general-interest fluff piece from fucking ABC News means that the scientific community at large believes that time travel is possible?

Get out of here, man.

Einstein's theories are becoming harder and harder to explain for those that study partical and quantum physics.
Click to expand...
No shit, Einstein's theories has always been flawed. Everyone knows this. That has nothing to do with somehow proving that time travel is possible.

Try doing your own research, and don't accept text books in college as fact.
Click to expand...
Okay, you really must be trolling. This is not possible.

But I'll humor you: Please, tell me about your quantum research into time travel.
 
[quote name='Filler2001']Allright, stop fighting, or do it over PM. I dont want shitstorms in here :([/QUOTE]


You made a thread about religion, dude. What the hell did you expect?
 
[quote name='Filler2001']peaceful conversation....and people acting like adults[/QUOTE]


Well, I guess I can't blame you for being internet-naïve, then.
 
HAHAHAHAHAHAAHHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA internet naïve. Its called reasonable conversation. Just because the internet can be known for shitstorms doesnt mean you start them. just keep it to PM, please. Ive laughed enough for one thread
 
[quote name='numbier_wun']Anybody that thinks that time travel is possible is a complete idiot. Time is not something that is physical and can be manipulated. Time is an idea thought up by humans.[/QUOTE]

Ideas can be manipulated (just look at the justification for the Iraq war)

I'd say that more accurately time is a system of measurement - like the metric system or the Celcius tempurature scale.

I get that a hardcore rational materialist would be willing to write off time travel as bogus science fiction. But have you ever been flooded with andreniline, when time seemed to slow down? Similarly have you ever been so preoccupied that time seemed to fly? And we are just lowly humans with our lowly empirical viewpoint - why couldn't some hypothetical being experience time all at once, backwards, or as a manipulative phenomenon?
 
[quote name='camoor']Ideas can be manipulated (just look at the justification for the Iraq war)

I'd say that more accurately time is a system of measurement - like the metric system or the Celcius tempurature scale.

I get that a hardcore rational materialist would be willing to write off time travel as bogus science fiction. But have you ever been flooded with andreniline, when time seemed to slow down? Similarly have you ever been so preoccupied that time seemed to fly? And we are just lowly humans with our lowly empirical viewpoint - why couldn't some hypothetical being experience time all at once, backwards, or as a manipulative phenomenon?[/QUOTE]

Nu uh. Everybody knows time is a constant no matter how fast one is moving.
 
[quote name='camoor']
But have you ever been flooded with andreniline, when time seemed to slow down? Similarly have you ever been so preoccupied that time seemed to fly? And we are just lowly humans with our lowly empirical viewpoint - why couldn't some hypothetical being experience time all at once, backwards, or as a manipulative phenomenon?[/QUOTE]

All you're explaining is how somebody might perceive time. None of that has to do with actually changing time itself.
 
Time is just a physical property like matter and gravity. Any physical property can be manipulated, bent, or sometimes even broken given the right technology.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Time is just a physical property like matter and gravity. Any physical property can be manipulated, bent, or sometimes even broken given the right technology.[/QUOTE]

Shhh. Don't let THEM know that.

...

For our next religious poll, I would like Storyism as a possibility.

What is Storyism?

Since I just made up the word and religion, I guess I should define it.

It is a play off of the theme in the Dark Tower Series that all stories are true somewhere.

Me? I'm a second rate background character in a very poorly written book. I'm still waiting for something major to happen. Come on, Accelerated Space Race!
 
[quote name='numbier_wun']Anybody that thinks that time travel is possible is a complete idiot. Time is not something that is physical and can be manipulated. Time is an idea thought up by humans.[/QUOTE]

I've seen the flux capacitor at Universal Studios. That shit is real.
 
Of course time travel is possible, I just did it. SHIT I DID IT AGAIN! I CAN'T STOP!

And we have no need for an "evolution doesn't explain what it was never intended to explain" discussion, so don't start that shit thrust. Evolution - how species differentiate, the end. Why humans exist is a different question from why life exists, which is also a different question from why matter exists. Don't lump them together.
 
[quote name='lilboo']I would change my mind if there was evidence. I just feel that Religion is made up to make people feel good. To look forward to something. It's like you're all good all year for Santa so you can get gifts :)
Or when you leave your stank teeth under the pillow for the tooth fairy.

It's just something to "live for", I guess. I hate what religion does to people, though.[/QUOTE]

Even if it, religion, is made up then..., so what. Just be the best human being you can be.

I was pretty much raised as what one might describe as a progressive, Protestant Christian. Religion can be used as a force of good and thats all that matters. Even if it is all a lie, we can't disprove it anyway.

And to your second point...religion does nothing to people...they do it themselves under the veil of religion.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Time is just a physical property like matter and gravity. Any physical property can be manipulated, bent, or sometimes even broken given the right technology.[/QUOTE]

Time is not physical. Time is an idea. And the possibility of time travel is absolutely contradictory to the concept of time itself.
 
[quote name='numbier_wun']Time is not physical. Time is an idea. And the possibility of time travel is absolutely contradictory to the concept of time itself.[/QUOTE]

Explain please.

I agree time is an idea, sort of - it's more like a word and concept we've come up with to explain a property of what most of us are perceiving as reality.
 
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