What kind of loser would vote for Hillary or Mccain?

[quote name='sweeetja713']Funny, I thought our country was founded on change. Isn't that the reason we have the ability to amend the constitution, in case something needs changed? Our founders foresaw the fact that we would need change over the years. Why does everyone think being a patriot means blindly following the government. Some of the truest patriots want to change the country for the better.

It doesn't take a genius to see we're heading for some bad times right now and something does have to change. I'm not saying Obama or anyone else is the answer but at least it's a step in the right direction.[/quote]

Well said my friend. People can't give one legitmate excuse as to why they want hillary or Mccain.
 
[quote name='HuppSav']People can't give one legitmate excuse as to why they want hillary or Mccain.[/quote]You misspoke. What you meant to say is that no one can give you one reason to make you question your choice in candidate. And that's fine. But in politics, like in a lot of things, there's no clear-cut right-or-wrong answer. I think that's especially true this go-round. Shades of gray.

And please cut out the personal attacks and inflammatory tone. They're not needed and just rob any decent point you may have had of most if not all of its credibility.
 
[quote name='HuppSav']Well said my friend. People can't give one legitmate excuse as to why they want hillary or Mccain.[/QUOTE]

Maybe it's because I want some sort of solution between 'defeating the terrorists' and 'letting the terrorists win.'

Maybe it's because I feel actually doing something in the Senate is better than talking about what others did in the Senate.

Maybe it's because the man hasn't addressed (aside from his internet site) what exactly he's going to do if he got into office. He's offered us everything except free fries on Tuesdays, but hasn't told us how he plans to finance all of this.

Maybe because I feel our best foreign policy is one that actually exists, or is at least a combination of force and diplomacy, not one or another.

Maybe because I don't want to cut and run from Iraq, and don't feel like invading Iran.
 
[quote name='sweeetja713']Funny, I thought our country was founded on change. Isn't that the reason we have the ability to amend the constitution, in case something needs changed?[/quote]
Yes. You are correct so far.
But it's worth mentioning that having that one gift that you mention is also our downfall. Because as soon as the people figure out how to use democracy to get access to the treasury, it's the beginning of the end. Thus is the cycle of Democratic governments. If you want to accelerate that, then make sure you vote for the person that gives you the most from the treasury. I'll let you figure out who that is.

Our founders foresaw the fact that we would need change over the years. Why does everyone think being a patriot means blindly following the government. Some of the truest patriots want to change the country for the better.
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I would agree that blindly following the government is the worst thing anyone could do. That is definitely NOT patriotic.

However, giving the government more control, more power, more money and letting them into more aspects of our lives is virtually the same thing.

So it's perplexing why you would be arguing in favor of those who clearly demonstrate these desires and at the same time argue against government trust and dependency.


It doesn't take a genius to see we're heading for some bad times right now and something does have to change. I'm not saying Obama or anyone else is the answer but at least it's a step in the right direction.
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Agreed, we are heading for some bad times. It's time for change. It's time to take power away from the Federal government and let people govern themselves. It's time to give people true OPPORTUNITY if they want to WORK HARD. And time to start cutting the hand-outs and high taxes. It's time to stop teaching our children to depend on the government like a baby on a tit, and grow up.

So you let me know when there is a candidate that wants real, concrete, useful change. It seems to me, that those that do are labeled nuts, while the candidates that promise more of the same of the last 80 years are considered "change".
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']I would agree that blindly following the government is the worst thing anyone could do. That is definitely NOT patriotic.

However, giving the government more control, more power, more money and letting them into more aspects of our lives is virtually the same thing.

So it's perplexing why you would be arguing in favor of those who clearly demonstrate these desires and at the same time argue against government trust and dependency.[/quote]

I'm not arguing in favor of those who want to expand government. I'm looking at our choices. Realistically we are stuck with a two party system. Thus far these candidates look better than some we've had in the past. Do I agree with all their views? Hell no. I think Obama is riding on charisma, Hillary is riding on her marriage, and McCain has taken a huge step back from his views and statements from 2000. Naturally a huge amount of this is political pandering on all their parts but I can at least hope right? Sad thing is if you mixed their views together you might have a pretty good president. At least everyone of them claims to be in favor of a mixed cabinet. It's about time they stop doing things solely on party lines.



[quote name='thrustbucket']Agreed, we are heading for some bad times. It's time for change. It's time to take power away from the Federal government and let people govern themselves. It's time to give people true OPPORTUNITY if they want to WORK HARD. And time to start cutting the hand-outs and high taxes. It's time to stop teaching our children to depend on the government like a baby on a tit, and grow up.

So you let me know when there is a candidate that wants real, concrete, useful change. It seems to me, that those that do are labeled nuts, while the candidates that promise more of the same of the last 80 years are considered "change".[/quote]

I agree with most of that. However, sometimes hard work isn't enough. For example my friend was laid off in the massive Circuit City layoffs. Despite an incredible number of applications he still hasn't managed to find another job. He's either too qualified or the wages they'd pay at some shit job wouldn't cover the costs of gas. He needs the unemployment right now. Hand-outs are sometimes necessary and while sometimes abused I would rather they be abused by some than not be available for those that truly need it.

As far as candidates for real change, I completely agree but as I said above it's just not going to happen. The only way to change the situation is with small steps and I have hope that whichever candidate is elected will at least start us in that direction.
 
[quote name='sweeetja713']I'm not arguing in favor of those who want to expand government. I'm looking at our choices. Realistically we are stuck with a two party system. Thus far these candidates look better than some we've had in the past. Do I agree with all their views? Hell no. I think Obama is riding on charisma, Hillary is riding on her marriage, and McCain has taken a huge step back from his views and statements from 2000. Naturally a huge amount of this is political pandering on all their parts but I can at least hope right? Sad thing is if you mixed their views together you might have a pretty good president. At least everyone of them claims to be in favor of a mixed cabinet. It's about time they stop doing things solely on party lines.[/quote]

I can pretty much agree with you there. Good statement.





I agree with most of that. However, sometimes hard work isn't enough. For example my friend was laid off in the massive Circuit City layoffs. Despite an incredible number of applications he still hasn't managed to find another job. He's either too qualified or the wages they'd pay at some shit job wouldn't cover the costs of gas. He needs the unemployment right now. Hand-outs are sometimes necessary and while sometimes abused I would rather they be abused by some than not be available for those that truly need it.

As far as candidates for real change, I completely agree but as I said above it's just not going to happen. The only way to change the situation is with small steps and I have hope that whichever candidate is elected will at least start us in that direction.
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I'm sorry to hear about your friend, and I myself just came off unemployment (back into the game industry now). I have very mixed feelings about stuff like unemployment. Having been on it so long, I can see how it's easy to abuse, sometimes I felt like the government should make me go take the job of an illegal alien and not be a leach, but I was too much of a pussy to do it myself. I sucked on the tit until it ran dry, and I'm not proud of it.

I don't pretend to have all the answers, I just can't stand to see so many people (not you) that really seem to believe the government is their crutch. They want the governments help/interference with every aspect of their life. It's wrong, and scary.

Anyway, thanks for sharing some meaningful thoughts about this stuff and not resorting to bomb throwing like so many.
 
[quote name='HuppSav']Obamma is not just about change, he is about actually wanting to do something for the people. He is the only person I can trust to make decisions that actually matter. Mccain is too old and stupid to realize what we need to do. He says what he means, which is good, but he won't make the right decisions. Hillary has way too many agendas and does not understand how to do anything the right way, and she defiantely can't bring people together. The thought of her as commander in chief is scary. She is worse than rubbish and would be just terrible! She doesn't have all this experience she claims she does and it's really just funny and heartwrenching at the same time to listen to her speak to sheep at her events.[/QUOTE]

brilliant argument, ill change my vote now.
 
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