Why Aren't We Talking About Union Busting?

Damn I never knew about that. Makes the whole sending in the national guard thing that much more poignant.
 
[quote name='Clak']There have been a few actually.[/QUOTE]

Collapses in both Utah and West Virginia in the past 5 or so years, if memory serves.

It's cheaper for the company to pay out dead employee severance packages than to keep up with government safety standards.
 
The more I see our political infrastructure at work, the more I'm reminded of the Futurama episode where the Brain Spawn show up and then the newswoman starts talking about how "The governator lady said she's SENDING IN MORE TRAINS!" which adds to the already sizeable pickup.
 
[quote name='Strell']The more I see our political infrastructure at work, the more I'm reminded of the Futurama episode where the Brain Spawn show up and then the newswoman starts talking about how "The governator lady said she's SENDING IN MORE TRAINS!" which adds to the already sizeable pickup.[/QUOTE]

Indeed if only there was a way we really could trap the worst in a crummy world full of plot holes & spelling errors...
 
The protesting public school teachers with fake doctor's notes swarming the Capitol building in Madison, Wis., insist that Gov. Scott Walker is hell-bent on "union busting" in their state. Walker denies that his effort to reform public sector unions in Wisconsin is anything more than an honest attempt at balancing the state's books.

I hope the protesters are right. Public unions have been a 50-year mistake.

A crucial distinction has been lost in the debate over Walker's proposals: Government unions are not the same thing as private sector unions.

Traditional, private sector unions were born out of an often bloody adversarial relationship between labor and management. It's been said that during World War I, U.S. soldiers had better odds of surviving on the front lines than miners did in West Virginia coal mines. Mine disasters were frequent; hazardous conditions were the norm. In 1907, the Monongah mine explosion claimed the lives of 362 West Virginia miners. Day-to-day life often resembled serfdom, with management controlling vast swaths of the miners' lives. And before unionization and many New Deal-era reforms, Washington had little power to reform conditions by legislation.

Meanwhile, government unions have no such narrative on their side. Do you recall the Great DMV cave-in of 1959? How about the travails of second-grade teachers recounted in Upton Sinclair's famous schoolhouse sequel to "The Jungle"? No? Don't feel bad, because no such horror stories exist.

Government workers were making good salaries in 1962 when President Kennedy lifted, by executive order (so much for democracy), the federal ban on government unions. Civil service regulations and similar laws had guaranteed good working conditions for generations.

The argument for public unionization wasn't moral, economic or intellectual. It was rankly political.

Traditional organized labor, the backbone of the Democratic Party, was beginning to lose ground. As Daniel DiSalvo wrote in "The Trouble with Public Sector Unions," in the fall issue of National Affairs, JFK saw how in states such as New York and Wisconsin, where public unions were already in place, local liberal pols benefited politically and financially. He took the idea national.

The plan worked. Public union membership skyrocketed and government union support for the party of government skyrocketed with it. From 1989 to 2004, AFSCME — the American Federation of State, County and Municipal Employees — gave nearly $40 million to candidates in federal elections, with 98.5% going to Democrats, according to the Center for Responsive Politics.

Why would local government unions give so much in federal elections? Because government workers have an inherent interest in boosting the amount of federal tax dollars their local governments get. Put simply, people in the government business support the party of government.

And this gets to the real insidiousness of government unions. Wisconsin labor officials fairly note that they've acceded to many of their governor's specific demands — that workers contribute to their pensions and healthcare costs, for example. But they don't want to lose the right to collective bargaining.

But that is exactly what they need to lose.

Private sector unions fight with management over an equitable distribution of profits. Government unions negotiate with politicians over taxpayer money, putting the public interest at odds with union interests and, as we've seen in states such as California and Wisconsin, exploding the cost of government. The labor-politician negotiations can't be fair when the unions can put so much money into campaign spending. Victor Gotbaum, a leader in the New York City chapter of AFSCME, summed up the problem in 1975 when he boasted, "We have the ability, in a sense, to elect our own boss."

This is why FDR believed that "the process of collective bargaining, as usually understood, cannot be transplanted into the public service," and why even George Meany, the first head of the AFL-CIO, held that it was "impossible to bargain collectively with the government."

As it turns out, it's not impossible; it's just terribly unwise. It creates a dysfunctional system where for some, growing government becomes its own reward. You can find evidence of this dysfunction everywhere. The Cato Institute's Michael Tanner notes that federal education spending has risen by 188% in real terms since 1970, but we've seen no significant improvement in test scores.

The unions and the protesters in Wisconsin see Walker's reforms as a potential death knell for government unions. My response? If only.

http://www.latimes.com/news/opinion...berg-wisconsin-20110222,0,936018,print.column
 
federal education spending has increased since 188%.

so that means public teachers' wages and benefits should make them, in constant dollars, six-figure income earners?

Goldberg is dishonest. Love that he's taken the GOP talking points hot off the press w/ the FDR quote. Limbaugh was bleating about that all day today, too.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Collapses in both Utah and West Virginia in the past 5 or so years, if memory serves.

It's cheaper for the company to pay out dead employee severance packages than to keep up with government safety standards.[/QUOTE]
And you can bet it would be a lot worse if decades ago miners didn't start demanding safer working conditions in the mines.
 
[quote name='Strell']The more I see our political infrastructure at work, the more I'm reminded of the Futurama episode where the Brain Spawn show up and then the newswoman starts talking about how "The governator lady said she's SENDING IN MORE TRAINS!" which adds to the already sizeable pickup.[/QUOTE]
I was just watching that this morning. You know if that ever happened we'd all be screwed. Republicans would have to save us, and you know that wouldn't happen.
 
Nah. The free market would have driven the surviving miners to safer mines.

EDIT: I've not seen that futurama episode, so all that talk is going over my head.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Nah. The free market would have driven the surviving miners to safer mines.

EDIT: I've not seen that futurama episode, so all that talk is going over my head.[/QUOTE]
Evil brains come to take over the earth, all of the moderately smart people are made dumb, Fry is the only hope of humanity. Kinda like Idiocracy actually, the dumbest guy on earth becomes the smartest.
 
[quote name='Clak']I was just watching that this morning. You know if that ever happened we'd all be screwed. Republicans would have to save us, and you know that wouldn't happen.[/QUOTE]

How would we know if Brain Spawn were affecting Republicans?
 
[quote name='Strell']How would we know if Brain Spawn were affecting Republicans?[/QUOTE]Heh, good point.
 
[quote name='Quillion'] Speaking of the dumbest guy on earth...

http://motherjones.com/mojo/2011/02/...call-wisconsin

Seriously? Some of the shit in this call is fucking horrible.[/QUOTE]

The funny part was how stereotypical it was. Take every caricature of a right wing billionaire and you get that fake Koch. 'Id fire my maid but she makes shit wages anyway?' Who the fuck believes that someone talks like that?
 
[quote name='IRHari']Who the fuck believes that someone talks like that?[/QUOTE]

Bingo. I'm highly skeptical that it was Walker. If it was, then I'm less interested in the content of the call than I am in what the call itself says.

Reporter can't get through. Citizens can't get access.

Hella rich campaign donor gets an expeditious callback. If anything, such behavior rebukes the idea that he represents those who *voted for him*, instead exposing he represents the direct interests of those who funded his campaign.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']Bingo. I'm highly skeptical that it was Walker. If it was, then I'm less interested in the content of the call than I am in what the call itself says.

Reporter can't get through. Citizens can't get access.

Hella rich campaign donor gets an expeditious callback. If anything, such behavior rebukes the idea that he represents those who *voted for him*, instead exposing he represents the direct interests of those who funded his campaign.[/QUOTE]
Walker's office has confirmed it's him. http://www.npr.org/blogs/itsallpoli...kes-prank-call-from-fake-koch-brother?ps=cprs
 
I don't blame you for being skeptical of the authenticity of something like that. They didn't waste any time with confirming it either, kind of surprising.
 
Bingo. I'm highly skeptical that it was Walker. If it was, then I'm less interested in the content of the call than I am in what the call itself says.

Yeah I guess I wasn't clear. When I said 'who the fuck believes that' I was talking about the craziness of Walker's staffer who believed it was actually Koch. I mean if the Republican administration in Wisconsin believes that this nutty right wing billionaire actually says and believes these things, it probably says more about the perceptions of Koch.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Yeah I guess I wasn't clear. When I said 'who the fuck believes that' I was talking about the craziness of Walker's staffer who believed it was actually Koch. I mean if the Republican administration in Wisconsin believes that this nutty right wing billionaire actually says and believes these things, it probably says more about the perceptions of Koch.[/QUOTE]

I bet Koch, Walker and the majority of the hardcore cons really do believe that shit.

They just hide it.
 
I seriously don't know how anyone defend this scum bag. Any sense that this is for the good of the state should be gone, this is solely for the benefit of folks like the Koch brothers and the politicians they've bought off. It isn't for the state, it isn't for the people. If Walker seriously believes this is what people elected him to do, he's full of shit.
 
I don't know how anyone believes the first two sentences of your post, and ya, this is coming from someone who has been anti union busting from the start. You just look stupid.
 
Remember all that hub-bub about ACORN members being recorded without their permission...

I do so hope those of you who cried out about that will attack this guy with the same gusto. Man, the nerve of breaking laws to get recordings of people doing stupid-ass stuff.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Remember all that hub-bub about ACORN members being recorded without their permission...

I do so hope those of you who cried out about that will attack this guy with the same gusto. Man, the nerve of breaking laws to get recordings of people doing stupid-ass stuff.[/QUOTE]

The problem with ACORN, Planned Parenthood, Sherrod, and other Breitbart-style-gotchas is that they're heavily edited to tell a very specific narrative. This appears to be unedited. In fact the governor confirmed the conversation happened as we've heard.

Not to mention that the ACORN folks are private citizens recorded at their workplace. This is a public servant making time for a donor while ducking the press, opposition and citizens. There's more to the story than "recorded without his permission."
 
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/24/shep-smith-wisconsin-figh_n_827547.html

Shep Smith gets it!

[quote name='The Voice of Reason on Fox News']On Wednesday's "Studio B," Shepard Smith said the battle over union rights in Wisconsin was all about busting unions and securing Republican political power, not about the state's budget deficit.

It was a take that placed Smith squarely in agreement with people such as Rachel Maddow, who has repeatedly argued essentially the same thing on her show.

Speaking to a mostly-in-agreement Juan Williams, Smith said the fight was "100 percent politics."

"There is no budget crisis in Wisconsin," he said, adding that the unions "[have] given concessions."

The real point of the fight, Smith said, could be found in the list of the top ten donors to political campaigns. Seven out of the ten donated to Republicans; the other three were unions donating to Democrats.

"Bust the unions, and it's over," Smith said. He then brought up the Koch brothers, the billionaires who have bankrolled much of the anti-union pushback in Wisconsin. The fight, Smith said, "started" with the Kochs, who he said were trying to get a return on the money they donated to Walker's campaign.

"I'm not taking a side on this, I'm just telling you what's going on...to pretend this is about a fiscal crisis in the state of Wisconsin is malarkey," Smith said.[/Quote]
 
[quote name='Quillion']The problem with ACORN, Planned Parenthood, Sherrod, and other Breitbart-style-gotchas is that they're heavily edited to tell a very specific narrative. This appears to be unedited. In fact the governor confirmed the conversation happened as we've heard.

Not to mention that the ACORN folks are private citizens recorded at their workplace. This is a public servant making time for a donor while ducking the press, opposition and citizens. There's more to the story than "recorded without his permission."[/QUOTE]
And actually, some states are one party states in that only one person in the conversation has to be aware that something is being recorded. Wisconsin is one of those states, depends on where this guy called Walker from.
 
[quote name='Clak']I seriously don't know how anyone defend this[/QUOTE]

They find a way. Never directly but they find some dishonest spin and cling to it for dear life.
 
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hardy har Faux News and all that, but when they actually do NEWS and not commentary it's hard to pin any BS on them. Then again, it's the very clever way that they weave the two together that makes it harder differ the shit from the shinola.
Then again, the same can be said for all cable news...
 
[quote name='Quillion']http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2011/02/24/shep-smith-wisconsin-figh_n_827547.html

Shep Smith gets it![/QUOTE]

Shep usually does a pretty good job of remaining independent of the Fox News conservative slant. This isn't the first time he's broken from the conservative talking point and even gone of the offensive against it. In particular in recent memory I remember him absolutely blasting republicans in congress for blocking the 9/11 healthcare bill.

I respect him as one of the few honest journalists at Fox News that is (A) competent and (B) open minded.
 
[quote name='Quillion']The problem with ACORN, Planned Parenthood, Sherrod, and other Breitbart-style-gotchas is that they're heavily edited to tell a very specific narrative. This appears to be unedited. In fact the governor confirmed the conversation happened as we've heard.

Not to mention that the ACORN folks are private citizens recorded at their workplace. This is a public servant making time for a donor while ducking the press, opposition and citizens. There's more to the story than "recorded without his permission."[/QUOTE]

This is bad but it's hard to get really outraged about a recording that was made by someone that pretended to be someone else. What else did he pretend to do? What did he cut? We already know the guy is dishonest about his identity. What else is he not telling us? We bitched and moaned about gotcha journalism from the right but now we're taking the same shit seriously from the left? C'mon, guys.

And please, it's not a different ball of wax. Both moves were politically motivated to make the other side look stupid at a crucial time. The ACORN videos were done right before the election. The Walker call was made during union protests.

Besides, we know both sides don't give a shit about the common man. We don't need gotcha phone calls to "prove" that point.
 
Well the real problem of the Koch Phone Call is that we see the deceptive tactics Walker was seriously considering.

Fake protestors posing as Union members? Possibly. Tricking Dems into coming back so they can use a procedural tactic to ram it down the throats of the Wisconsin people? Check.

Oh and imagine the conservative outrage if Richard Trumka said 'lawl I keep a bat in my office'. Union thugs indeed.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Remember all that hub-bub about ACORN members being recorded without their permission...

I do so hope those of you who cried out about that will attack this guy with the same gusto. Man, the nerve of breaking laws to get recordings of people doing stupid-ass stuff.[/QUOTE]
Actually, people were upset about the clearly fabricated nature of the videos and how it was reported as legitimate, but keep on throwing out false equivalences like the republifuck you are.
 
Sheep smith almostgets it. It isn't about reps gaining power it's about removing the shady politico of the left. Gov teachers unionize and demand money benefits etc from democratic leaders who say ok because it's the socialist way. The unions then back democrats in elections, contributing union dues and money from their benefits back to dem campaigns. The tax payer never gets to say a word. The dems are all the more happy to spend tax money to help themselves. And the cycle continues to grow.

There is NO reason why gov employees should unionize. There are no scary corporate bosses trying to stick it to them. That's all left wing propaganda. Govt unions are blatant misapprobations of tax payer dollars in a left wing circle jerk!
 
Just some local news that has been shit-fanning....

UW Lacrosse just made a union over night (joined an existing teachers union).... they weren't before but 270ish vs 41 voted in.

Security has Walker shaking in his boots, new article just passed kicking everyone out of democrats offices. Darn no more sleepovers. I was gearing up sleeping bag. Everyone out by Saturday.

WPR stated in news updates on the past hour.
 
[quote name='depascal22']This is bad but it's hard to get really outraged about a recording that was made by someone that pretended to be someone else.[/quote]

Speak for yourself.

And please, it's not a different ball of wax.

It is a different ball of wax on an entirely different planet.
 
[quote name='Strell']I hope everyone else reads Tivo's posts in Bebop's voice. It makes them so much more palatable.[/QUOTE]
:rofl: It really does. *snort* Dem turtles is unionizing masta shreddah. *snort*
 
[quote name='depascal22']This is bad but it's hard to get really outraged about a recording that was made by someone that pretended to be someone else. What else did he pretend to do? What did he cut? We already know the guy is dishonest about his identity. What else is he not telling us? We bitched and moaned about gotcha journalism from the right but now we're taking the same shit seriously from the left? C'mon, guys.

And please, it's not a different ball of wax. Both moves were politically motivated to make the other side look stupid at a crucial time. The ACORN videos were done right before the election. The Walker call was made during union protests.

Besides, we know both sides don't give a shit about the common man. We don't need gotcha phone calls to "prove" that point.[/QUOTE]
Would you feel different if this guy had done this for something like the Howard Stern show?
 
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