Why Aren't We Talking About Union Busting?

Um didn't a lot of the pension funds invest in shit like Lehman and mortgage backed securities? That's why there's a budget shortfall and a hole in a lot of these pension funds? Because of Wall Street?

Meh I suppose it's a little easier to demonize public employees.
 
[quote name='spmahn']Wait, what? Republicans....in Rhode Island? Is this a joke? I don't know what Rhode Island you're referring to, but the one I live next to is bluer than the ocean. I think you can count the number of Republicans in the RI General Assembly on both hands.

As far as the Union mess goes, I think they should at least give them the chance to negotiate some concessions, rather than eliminate them entirely. If you can't come to terms on reasonable concessions, then fuck 'em, get rid of them at that point.

Here in CT, we are broker than broke as a result of public union workers with pensions we can't afford to pay. Our newly elected Governor says he is going to negotiate concessions with the unions to help balance the budget, but everyone knows he is just paying lip service, he was bought by the unions a long time ago. I know people who get paid 60 - 80 dollars an hour to plow snow, and get to retire at 45 with full benefits and pension, it's ludicrous. Now, as a result, we're on the verge of the biggest tax hike in state history, and our taxes are already amongst the highest in the nation! Worse yet, we just had special elections to fill some vacant state house and senate seats that opened up as a result of appointments in the new administration, and 7 of the nine seats went back to the same Democrats that people are bitching will raise our taxes.

It's such a joke, the CT lawmakers are going to squeeze the middle class out of the state, and all that will be left is the super rich in Fairfield county that don't pay taxes due to tax shelters and creative accounting, and the welfare recipients that make up the majority of the population of all of our urban cities. Me, I'm heading out to Las Vegas with my wife next year to start a new life.[/QUOTE]
Umm, they've already tried to negotiate concessions, Walker told them to fuck off.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Um didn't a lot of the pension funds invest in shit like Lehman and mortgage backed securities? That's why there's a budget shortfall and a hole in a lot of these pension funds? Because of Wall Street?

Meh I suppose it's a little easier to demonize public employees.[/QUOTE]
I think some were even invested with Bernie Madoffwithashitloadofmoney.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']You seem to be suggesting that there is some relationship between unionization and state budget deficit

Say hello to Nevada on the graph.[/QUOTE]

Spiffy graph, but without knowing what percentage of the union workers are public vs private, it means nothing. A state like Nevada which has a majority of people working in the casino or food service industry, will obviously have more union members since those are all union jobs, but those are private unions, having no impact on any state budget deficit. Something tells me that this isn't the story being told here.
 
[quote name='pittpizza']Still I can understand anti-union position. It is sort of against a free-market pure capitalist idea.[/QUOTE]
If labor pooling its resources to negotiate for better terms is against a free market pure capitalist idea, then capital doing it should be equally "bad". I can't understand why labor gets saddled with this. If I said that about capital, I'd be locked up in a padded cell.

I don't mean to throw stones. I don't know why that's a given, even among liberal thinkers.
 
[quote name='spmahn']Spiffy graph, but without knowing what percentage of the union workers are public vs private, it means nothing. A state like Nevada which has a majority of people working in the casino or food service industry, will obviously have more union members since those are all union jobs, but those are private unions, having no impact on any state budget deficit. Something tells me that this isn't the story being told here.[/QUOTE]

Seems like something that has been "forgotten" a lot during this whole thing is the public vs private union thing.
 
Here you go, this specifies public sector.

unionsanddeficits2-thumb-475x345-327.png


Now what you may notice is that a state like NY has nearly 75% of their public employees in unions, yet their shortfall is less than 20%. Now why is it that a state like NV actually has fewer public workers in unions, yet their shortfall is over twice as high as New York's?
 
RE: RI Teachers getting layoff notices
By law in RI a teacher needs to be notified of a layoff before the end of the school year. Just because they get notified of a potential layoff, does not mean that they WILL get laid off.
Even if all 1,900-2,000 teachers get a slip, maybe 200 will get the axe.

Lots of hullabaloo over what will eventually amount to a slightly larger than usual layoff.
 
Again, everything I've read has stated these were not layoff notices but termination notices. So unless there is a huge misunderstanding across many different news outlets, I don't think is a simple layoff notification.
 
I think the misunderstanding comes from some outlets thinking that they mean the same thing. Either way, per the union contract and the law and blah blah blah, they are notices and not actual firings/layoffs. By the beginning of 2011-2012 school year it's fairly certain that there will be little difference in the makeup of RI public schools other than 1 in 15-20 teachers no longer being there.
 
“What they did is shocking,’’ she said. “I couldn’t believe it. What makes this worse is that if I have to apply for another job, I have to write down that I have been terminated, and it will make it so I can’t get a job anywhere else.’’
Click to expand...

She and other teachers said their termination was not explained and they argued that they could only be laid off — rather than terminated — for financial reasons.
Click to expand...

http://www.boston.com/news/local/rhode_island/articles/2011/02/26/ri_city_votes_to_fire_all_teachers/?rss_id=Boston+Globe+--+Today%27s+paper+A+to+Z

If you're right then a lot of the teachers are confused as well.
 
Being in a union hasn't helped me one iota either time I've been in a union, so my opinion is that unions have outlived their usefulness. Same thing happened with one of my parents with the same union I was in. They were in the union for 30+ years in the same industry and they railroaded them out of their job without so much as a peep from their union rep.

Moreover, if all of the govt employees actually had to show they were doing their jobs and not just coasting to a cushy pension I think the state and national shortfalls would be far less. I can't even count how many times it's taken me 40 minutes to get help from one state employee at the job center because they were too busy bsing with their next cube mate about the prior night's sports game.
 
From same article that Clak quoted:
"City officials said the decision was necessary because Rhode Island law requires schools to notify teachers by March 1 if they will not be rehired the following school year.

“Given where we are in the budget process, we needed to retain the maximum flexibility we could to manage what inevitably will be significant cuts to the school budget,’’ said Melissa Withers, a spokeswoman for Mayor Angel Taveras. ‘We could not afford any situation where we would have more teachers on the payroll than we could pay.’’

I read that necessary bit in the beginning to mean that they had to issue all of the termination slips because the deadline to terimante ANYBODY is 3/1/11. Just because the slip was sent doesn't mean that they are guaranteed a termination however.
Also, the school board voted to do this, not the mayor, not city hall, not "THE MAN".
 
That's my point, they weren't laid off, they were fired, or will be after this year. That looks great on a resume. Why not lay them off?
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']Being in a union hasn't helped me one iota either time I've been in a union, so my opinion is that unions have outlived their usefulness. Same thing happened with one of my parents with the same union I was in. They were in the union for 30+ years in the same industry and they railroaded them out of their job without so much as a peep from their union rep.

Moreover, if all of the govt employees actually had to show they were doing their jobs and not just coasting to a cushy pension I think the state and national shortfalls would be far less. I can't even count how many times it's taken me 40 minutes to get help from one state employee at the job center because they were too busy bsing with their next cube mate about the prior night's sports game.[/QUOTE]
Of course! Just because they didn't "help" you or your parents means that they're useless. So tell me, did you make more or less than your non-union couterparts? And how were the benefits?

Just because some public employees slack off doesn't mean that they all do. I also highly doubt that all jobs are equal at the job center. I bet they have an hierarchy like everywhere else. A director of accounting isn't going to be able to help you fill out an application and process your claims.
 
[quote name='Clak']That's my point, they weren't laid off, they were fired, or will be after this year. That looks great on a resume. Why not lay them off?[/QUOTE]
That would mean that the teachers were not resposible for being fired and can claim unemployment, which is another way for leeeches to live off the dole....DUH...

But of course no one really talks about why the pension funds are in the shitter...cause you know...class warfare and all that shit.

Bankers make billions and the rest can clean their toilets.
 
But they haven't been fired yet, and likely most won't. Besides, "terminated" has now replaced just about all other names for "layoff, fired, given the shaft, summarily dismissed, etc..." in HR lingo.

I'm looking forward to the PTA response...

For pensions are we talking RI or WI?
 
Personally, I don't really see the need for Unions. 100 years ago before we had OSHA or minimum wage laws, sure, but in 2011, we have laws for all those things. I don't need any union to negotiate my wages or benefits, I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself. It seems to me that Unions exist only to benefit the unions thenselves, and the absolute worst employees that would get booted out on their ass anywhere else. It's not fair to lump all unions together, but it's true that the few bad apples ruin it for the bunch.

For example in the movie theater business where I work, we had union projectionists for years getting paid $30+ an hour to sleep and press buttons. That's not to say film projection is easy work, it's not, I've done it for over 6 years, in a non union capacity, but it's certainly no something that anyone should be paid more that $12 - $15 an hour for.
 
[quote name='dohdough']Of course! Just because they didn't "help" you or your parents means that they're useless. So tell me, did you make more or less than your non-union couterparts? And how were the benefits?

Just because some public employees slack off doesn't mean that they all do. I also highly doubt that all jobs are equal at the job center. I bet they have an hierarchy like everywhere else. A director of accounting isn't going to be able to help you fill out an application and process your claims.[/QUOTE]
The benefits sucked and unfortunately NO ONE was allowed to be exempt from being in that crappy union at the factory I worked at.:roll:

As for the public employees, I had been there tons of times before and saw the same people helping folks with applications and such. But quite a few times I also saw them sitting at their desks just bullshitting with the person at the next desk and doing next to nothing while doing so.

It may not be true at every government office, but around here it most certainly is. I guess that's why there's such a ratio of applicants to open positions for govt jobs here. There's a glut of employees at the local job center, so much so that they could have two people helping every applicant and still have people left over.

Then again it IS the gov't we're talking about here. The same gov't that lets third party providers charge them $500 for $10 plastic toilet seats from Wally World and doesn't flinch when cutting the check for those vultures.:roll: So efficiency and cost cutting is far from job one.
[quote name='dohdough']That would mean that the teachers were not resposible for being fired and can claim unemployment, which is another way for leeeches to live off the dole....DUH....[/QUOTE]
So people pay into unemployment through their taxes but when they need it due to being laid off they're 'leeches'?

If I pay into a system, you better believe I want to get every last nickel I paid into it back out of it. So if it means I'd be a 'leech' by taking unemployment benefits for a couple months(or more), then so be it. But I'm not about to leave that money in there for the gov't to squander elsewhere if they feel they can get away with borrowing(or in many cases just taking n never paying back)from the fund and bankrupting it.
 
I love that we've established that no one has been terminated by the Democrats in charge, yet some keep harping on the evil Republicans that fired all the teachers... Where's that topic about ignoring the facts?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I love that we've established that no one has been terminated by the Democrats in charge, yet some keep harping on the evil Republicans that fired all the teachers... Where's that topic about ignoring the facts?[/QUOTE]

Here's your answer:

Democrat!=liberal!=progressive!=socialist.
 
[quote name='IAmTheCheapestGamer']The benefits sucked and unfortunately NO ONE was allowed to be exempt from being in that crappy union at the factory I worked at.:roll:[/QUOTE]
And in comparison to non-union factories?

As for the public employees, I had been there tons of times before and saw the same people helping folks with applications and such. But quite a few times I also saw them sitting at their desks just bullshitting with the person at the next desk and doing next to nothing while doing so.
Click to expand...
Hate to break it to you, but no-one is going 110% 40 hours a week at any job. So what if they're bullshitting with eachother. You don't work there so who are you to judge that particular office culture. If you go to a bank with 3 tellers at 3 windows and only 1 or 2 are open, does it mean that they're closed because they see you in line? Not likely.

It may not be true at every government office, but around here it most certainly is. I guess that's why there's such a ratio of applicants to open positions for govt jobs here. There's a glut of employees at the local job center, so much so that they could have two people helping every applicant and still have people left over.
Click to expand...
There's more to running a job center than just helping people fill out applications on-site. Not sure why this is hard to understand.

Then again it IS the gov't we're talking about here. The same gov't that lets third party providers charge them $500 for $10 plastic toilet seats from Wally World and doesn't flinch when cutting the check for those vultures.:roll: So efficiency and cost cutting is far from job one.
Click to expand...
This is a symptom and not the disease. The question should be how and why, not just stick your fingers in your ears and complain about "efficiency" and "cost cutting" which happen to be dogwhistles for cutting social services. Kinda like what you're talking about here.

So people pay into unemployment through their taxes but when they need it due to being laid off they're 'leeches'?
Click to expand...
Your sarcasm meter is off.

If I pay into a system, you better believe I want to get every last nickel I paid into it back out of it. So if it means I'd be a 'leech' by taking unemployment benefits for a couple months(or more), then so be it. But I'm not about to leave that money in there for the gov't to squander elsewhere if they feel they can get away with borrowing(or in many cases just taking n never paying back)from the fund and bankrupting it.
Click to expand...
The government isn't some monolithic group with one mind and one goal in case you haven't noticed. Once again, you seem less concerned with having them supply needed services, but instead, complain about $500 toilets and a couple job center guys shooting the shit.
 
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Quilted Northern
Angel Soft
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Brawny
Mardi Gras
Dixie
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========================================

Mother fuckers.
Because the rolling brownouts that CA had after deregulation and privitization of the power grid (Dick Cheney's Enron/Haliburton mess had a good amount to do with this) were such a great idea. Let's bring that to the midwest! Hopefully they'll happen during the winter so the electric part of people's furnaces won't be able to fire up the gas for heat! YAY!

It'll start a whole new industry, utility insurance! I'm going to open a branch today. I'M RITCH BIATCH!
 
[quote name='UncleBob']I love that we've established that no one has been terminated by the Democrats in charge, yet some keep harping on the evil Republicans that fired all the teachers... Where's that topic about ignoring the facts?[/QUOTE]

I'm not partisan yet I protest when people don't create threads for me to whine endlessly about the other side.

...Unreal. Just absolutely fucking unreal.
 
[quote name='spmahn']I don't need any union to negotiate my wages or benefits, I'm perfectly capable of doing that myself.
[/QUOTE]


But that's really only true for those of us with educations or marketable skills. People working in factories etc. have nothing to bargain with. They take the offered wages or benefits and have little choice as there aren't a ton of those kind of jobs and there's a nearly endless supply of laborers who can do the work.

Unions can put pressure on businesses to have such jobs paying living wages, providing health care etc. that the workers would never get on their own.

So I can see a need for unions. Though I agree with many posts that there has to be a fine balance between union power and corporate power. As unions can go to far and drive up wages and fringe benefits to levels that are too high for the job like the projectionists you mentioned. At the same time, without unions companies will pay as little as they can and offer as little benefits as possible. And that just doesn't fly for me, especially in a country that's opposed to universal health care and other social safety nets.
 
We need unions solely for balance. Laws can be changed, deals can be made, but without anyone there to stand up to that, there's nothing to stop it. I can't beleive that, knowing what good unions have done, we're so ready to throw out the idea entirely. Then again, conservatives seem to have a go-it-alone kind of attitude these days anyway. If you all want to lone wolf it that's fine, but don't take away anyone else's right to combine their collective power.
 
[quote name='Clak']We need unions solely for balance. Laws can be changed, deals can be made, but without anyone there to stand up to that, there's nothing to stop it. I can't beleive that, knowing what good unions have done, we're so ready to throw out the idea entirely. Then again, conservatives seem to have a go-it-alone kind of attitude these days anyway. If you all want to lone wolf it that's fine, but don't take away anyone else's right to combine their collective power.[/QUOTE]
They don't think that at all; they just want to say that they did it alone without defining what "alone" really is. They're also more than fine with the power elite using collective power, just not the proles cause that'd be "anti-competitive" or "sound like class-warfare/envy." fuck them all.

Last time I checked, "alone" doesn't mean being a member of a privileged class with generational wealth. But hey, I'm just a libtard commie, what do I know.
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']Anonymous...LOL[/QUOTE]

Yeah I know, not exactly a reliable news source, hell not even a news source but:
http://legis.wisconsin.gov/JR1SB-11.pdf
Page 6 “Other State Government” section.
OTHER STATE GOVERNMENT
Currently, this state owns and operates numerous heating, cooling, and power
plants that were constructed by the state to provide heating, cooling, and power to
state facilities. The Department of Administration (DOA) determines the method of
operation of these plants and may delegate this authority to any other state agency
that has managing authority for a plant. This bill permits DOA to sell or contract
for the operation of any such plant. The bill exempts such sales and contracts from
the requirement for approval of the Public Service Commission (PSC) that may
otherwise apply under current law. The bill provides that the net proceeds of any
sale, after retirement of any outstanding state debt and any necessary repayment of
federal financial assistance, is deposited in the budget stabilization fund. The bill
also allows DOA, at any time, to petition the PSC to regulate as a public utility any
person who purchases or contracts for the operation of any plant under the bill.
Under current law, the PSC has regulatory authority over public utilities, including
the authority to set rates for utility service.

------------------------------------
That's in the bill, word for word copy/paste. Two key things, the operations of the plant, not the ownership of the plant. Basically that means a litigation nightmare in the case of negligent employees or disaster. Second thing is the last sentance which would allow whoever operates the plant to set prices as opposed to the Public Services Commission. Not to raise the double D's racism spidey sense or anything, but how much you want to bet that prices will NOT be universal and how that price application may be divested?

But hey, selling the operation of a plant would get the govt off the hook for those lousy govt workers right!
 
Watching Daily Show last night was depressing. Republican Brigade was out ACTUALLY condemning teachers left and right. One of the most sickening things I've ever seen. The worst part is that their dumbass fanbase is going to legitimately start thinking teachers are big pimpin' types with little concern for their fellow man.

I had to watch Conan immediately to take away the rage.
 
[quote name='Strell']Watching Daily Show last night was depressing. Republican Brigade was out ACTUALLY condemning teachers left and right. One of the most sickening things I've ever seen. The worst part is that their dumbass fanbase is going to legitimately start thinking teachers are big pimpin' types with little concern for their fellow man.[/QUOTE]
Thats because the only good teachers are in private schools with "higher" achievement due to "hard work"(and the ability of the schools to pick their students as well as isolating themselves economically as a response to desegregation, but no one ever talks about that).

I had to watch Conan immediately to take away the rage.
Click to expand...
This is why I don't watch any news shows anymore.
 
I mean there was no pretense at all. It was straight "fuck teachers" rhetoric. And it was all coming from rich fat white Republican shitbags who got their palms greased by other rich fat white Republican corporation shitbags.

Teachers probably have the highest thankless-job-with-integral-importance-to-the-future-of-this-country ratio, and they are getting hated on by the same people who just ran the country into the ground.

You cannot write jokes this good. You'd have killed yourself ages ago if you did.
 
[quote name='Strell']I mean there was no pretense at all. It was straight "fuck teachers" rhetoric. And it was all coming from rich fat white Republican shitbags who got their palms greased by other rich fat white Republican corporation shitbags.

Teachers probably have the highest thankless-job-with-integral-importance-to-the-future-of-this-country ratio, and they are getting hated on by the same people who just ran the country into the ground.

You cannot write jokes this good. You'd have killed yourself ages ago if you did.[/QUOTE]
You know the old saying: Those who can't do, teach...:bomb:

Like I've been saying, fuck those fucking republifuck fuckers.
 
[quote name='dohdough']They don't think that at all; they just want to say that they did it alone without defining what "alone" really is. They're also more than fine with the power elite using collective power, just not the proles cause that'd be "anti-competitive" or "sound like class-warfare/envy." fuck them all.

Last time I checked, "alone" doesn't mean being a member of a privileged class with generational wealth. But hey, I'm just a libtard commie, what do I know.[/QUOTE]
Oh I know, but that's the general attitude. they beat their chests and proclaim that they dot where they are by hard work and sweat (often heard from some fatass with a desk job) and why shouldn't everyone else. So i say to them fine, if that's what you want, fine. But leave the rest of us alone, and don't come whining to us when someone fucks you over and you want retribution, handle that shit yourself.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']I did buy a copy of Killzone 3 last week, so I guess that shows I'm a fuckin' high roller and stuff.[/QUOTE]
PFFT...I put it on a credit card. That proves I'm more American that you are.
 
Let's start a pool. What's the next underrepresented minority group that white straight Christian God fearing overweight dipshits will target next?

We can rule out anyone that currently holds a show on TLC or Discovery, so loggers, truckers, and fucking Alaskan airplane pilots are out*. So are gold miners, dog sledders, ice fishermen, Mike Rowe, and anyone with a family of 17 kids all named after people in the Bible.

So who is next? We really ought to give this some attention. I'll say...Venezuelan garbage men. Those assholes have been sucking on Uncle Sam's golden teat for far too long.

*Seriously. Alaskan pilots, man. I happened to watch whatever-the-hell-it-is-called on Discovery. And all I kept thinking was WHAT THE _fuck_ is the attraction that is keeping people in these harsh, remote areas that you need a goddamn PLANE to get to them? I mean, more power to the people putting up with that shit. The show was even somewhat entertaining. But they are in hugely subzero environments and there's not even a McDonalds. McDonalds, man. Think about that. Mc fucking Donalds understands "Hey you know what? How about fuck this shit." They had a dood running round trips from one tiny town to another, and every day was basically what-percentage-I'll-die ratios being evaluated on whether or not he should even attempt the trip. I was in shock. The hotel didn't have a mini bar, but I would have given thought to pouring one out for my homey until I was too drunk to remember how many legs I was currently wearing.

Second *: All of the Alaska pilots had to do random shit. I mean it was all flying obviously, but one guy had to take a photographer around a rock wall that was built around a city to keep the ever-rising tidal waters from wiping the one-road-town off the map. Know why they had to do that? Because of global warming melting the caps. Every last person up there saw first hand (and while we're at, COULD actually fucking see Siberia if they really wanted) what was happening and didn't question it for a second. Which is really great, considering their elected governor, someone who thinks Jesus juice powers volcanoes and has done so for roughly six thousand years.
 
I honestly wouldn't go batshit if they asked me to pay more towards my healthcare, but I would be upset if they tried to take away my right to bargain for it ever again.

Oh I was playing Unreal Tournament 3 last night (awesome game). When the robot characters get killed, they say 'I See The Blue Screen'. Super cool awesome.
 
Would you guys quit with the video game talk, you'd think this was a gaming forum or something.
 
[quote name='Clak']Would you guys quit with the video game talk, you'd think this was a gaming forum or something.[/QUOTE]
A cheap one at that.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']and fulla assholes.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Strell']fuck you too, myke! More like JERKvermin.[/QUOTE]
Sounds like you two need to eat a box of dicks. Maybe 2 for good measure...with a nice coating of SOCIALISM down your throats.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']In Wisconsin, in Ohio, and in New Jersey.

fuck, in Wisconsin the governor is threatening to send out the National Guard if unions protest.[/QUOTE]

The union I was a member of was absolute shit, so I dropped it. I can see fighting when it is useful and I am all for a union. I was basically paying $500 a year for a fucking calender.
 
I'd blow $500 on a calendar that told me when to fuck...

At any rate, it seems like the stalemate continues. It may be wise politically to fall on the sword a bit and let the R's have their way by showing up to vote. Walker says he wants to debate but something tells me that it won't happen quite that way.
 
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