Why Aren't We Talking About Union Busting?

[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']The reason we arent hearing about this is because the remaining unionized members of the workforce is too low. 30 years of losing that war will do that to you.



You seem to be suggesting that unions play a part in lowering product quality above that of the guy upstairs who is trying to cut corners as much as he can legally get away with, and illegally to the extent that he figure he wont get caught.

On the issue of costs, even in the most labor intensive products, labor isnt a very high percentage of the final price. Its like 10% for cars. That marginally higher cost to the consumer is more than offset by having workers being able to afford things.

So that brings your objections down to production speed, which is not a huge issue to the consumer. On the supply side, not being able to keep up with demand is a problem businesses would kill to have right now.

The main problem that is preventing the competitive pricing you want is our broken trade policy. The number of media entities covering our trade policy make the number covering unions look like the ones covering Egypt. It could very well be the case that the likes of Rachel Maddow and Lawrence O'Donnell have never even uttered the words trade deficit on the air. Fox could at least bring it up to blame it on Obama or something.[/QUOTE]

dude i don't really care whatever the reason, i just don't want my beloved cars to phase out for good. and feel both r to blame :bomb:
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']We're looking at a deficit of 3.6 billion dollars this upcoming fiscal year.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, and about that deficit...

http://markpocanwi.blogspot.com/2011/02/scott-walkers-manufactured-crisisaka.html

We found out yesterday after our briefing with non-partisan Legislative Fiscal Bureau, the $3.6 billion deficit in the next budget that Governor Walker and the media has been repeating is a MANUFACTURED CRISIS. The number is based on $3.9 billion in new spending requests by agencies, a 6.2% increase. I don’t think there is a member in the legislature that would vote for that. In fact, I asked Director Lang when was the last time we gave agencies exactly what they requested and was told he couldn’t think of one and he’s been here decades.
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And then there's this...

http://host.madison.com/ct/news/opinion/editorial/article_61064e9a-27b0-5f28-b6d1-a57c8b2aaaf6.html

In its Jan. 31 memo to legislators on the condition of the state’s budget, the Fiscal Bureau determined that the state will end the year with a balance of $121.4 million.

To the extent that there is an imbalance -- Walker claims there is a $137 million deficit -- it is not because of a drop in revenues or increases in the cost of state employee contracts, benefits or pensions. It is because Walker and his allies pushed through $140 million in new spending for special-interest groups in January. If the Legislature were simply to rescind Walker’s new spending schemes -- or delay their implementation until they are offset by fresh revenues -- the “crisis” would not exist.

The Fiscal Bureau memo -- which readers can access at http://legis.wisconsin.gov/lfb/Misc/2011_01_31Vos&Darling.pdf -- makes it clear that Walker did not inherit a budget that required a repair bill.
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Nothing like faking a budget crisis as an excuse to wage war on unions and the middle class!
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']New twist. Senate democrats have all literally left the state in order for the vote to not happen.[/QUOTE]

While I don't agree with a lot of the going-ons in this situation, I wonder where all the "up or down vote!" people are now...
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']New twist. Senate democrats have all literally left the state in order for the vote to not happen.[/QUOTE]

Didn't this same thing happen in Texas a couple years ago too?
 
[quote name='UncleBob']While I don't agree with a lot of the going-ons in this situation, I wonder where all the "up or down vote!" people are now...[/QUOTE]

I'm here. They should go back and vote no. Majority rules, no exceptions.
 
[quote name='Dr. Mario Kart']I'm here. They should go back and vote no. Majority rules, no exceptions.[/QUOTE]

Rule_34_no_exceptions.jpg
 
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We can talk about up or down votes when we get elected officials with the guts to put genuine filibuster reform on the table.

In the meantime, I'm gonna sit back and laugh at the idea that Gov. Walker sent police to find the Democrats. He sent members of the state employee unions to find the people necessary for a vote to bust up state employee unions.

http://spaceballsfoundnothin.ytmnd.com/

Shoulda called Blackwat...Xe Security instead.
 
I don't see why they can't debate over the cuts. When asked, the majority feel fine with taking the consessions.

And Walker never even hints at taking the collective powers away, keeping it like a secret.

Wouldn't it be fine to put a resolution that either take the consessions or lose 6000.... ? I would think if the unions were that tight, they wouldn't want anyone to go.

And the final sucker punch, keeping all those powers for the cops and firefighters. How long will that last?

And of course it's permanant.... if this was going to save only 300 million, a drop in the ol bucket... why not effecitvely make it expire in two years since he's budgeting for NOW instead of FOREVER.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Warning: Very Foul Language
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NtB0gUuLBf0
[/QUOTE]

1) Where's the intimidation alluded to in the video title?

2) Oh, any ideology has people who speak quite crassly or aren't intellectually deep. Us on the left are proud of the fact that, despite knowing we have them, we don't elect them to office or treat them as vanguards of a movement.

3) Do you have a point to make?
 
[quote name='perdition(troy']Yeah, pretty much. He's using the I'm fixing the budget (All 4% of it!) line as a shield to attack our states unions.[/QUOTE]

Ah but it's not just 4%, limiting collective bargaining allows him to limit the number of things unions can strike over. Then he can institute further cuts through furloughs and decreased benefits through increased deductibles to save even more money and workers cannot legally strike because collective bargaining only encompasses salaries not benefits.:D

Oh and don't feel too bad voting for him, in Washington we're having to make deeper cuts than we should because our state government has been putting off any real cuts for as long as possible. Both sides have great ways of making the problem worse!
 
[quote name='mykevermin']In the meantime, I'm gonna sit back and laugh at the idea that Gov. Walker sent police to find the Democrats. He sent members of the state employee unions to find the people necessary for a vote to bust up state employee unions.
[/QUOTE]

Ah, let's remember he's sending members of the state employee unions that are exempted from the legislation to round up libtards to vote to bust up the other state employee unions ;) Classy indeed.
[quote name='mykevermin']
2) Oh, any ideology has people who speak quite crassly or aren't intellectually deep. Us on the left are proud of the fact that, despite knowing we have them, we don't elect them to office or treat them as vanguards of a movement.[/QUOTE]

Could someone frame this quote so we can bust it out every time someone asserts 'both sides do it too'? It's one thing to have a bunch of college kids calling Bush Hitler or something, it's another thing to elect multiple members of Congress who believe what is going on in America is exactly like Germany in the 1930s.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Could someone frame this quote so we can bust it out every time someone asserts 'both sides do it too'? [/QUOTE]

Yeah, go ahead and frame that - because it's completely stupid. Shall we start with Sheila Jackson Lee and Hank Johnson and work back from there? Elect morons to office? Unfortunately, BOTH SIDES DO IT TOO.

The worst part? Myke actually believes his point.

EDIT - in fact, it's so completely idiotic and deluded that I may have to quote that for my sig.
 
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[quote name='RedvsBlue']Didn't this same thing happen in Texas a couple years ago too?[/QUOTE]
In 2003 the Texas Dems walked out over gerrymandered redistricting. I still get furious when I think about how badly they gerrymandered us. My neighborhood votes strongly liberal and we were pushed into a district that's bigger than us and votes strongly conservative. The moderate groups between us were likewise partitioned to insure that conservative areas would always outnumber moderate and liberal ones. There was one liberal area too big to be partitioned so they basically sucked up as many liberal areas as they could into that one.

God I fucking HATE HATE HATE gerrymandering. Sorry. Tangent.
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']I'm here. They should go back and vote no. Majority rules, no exceptions.[/QUOTE]
In my opinion, there should always be a mechanism for the minority to delay at the very least. The majority should be able to force a vote at some point, but denying quorum is a great way to do it imo. It can't last forever but as a temporary measure, I think it's a very legitimate tactic.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']We can talk about up or down votes when we get elected officials with the guts to put genuine filibuster reform on the table.

In the meantime, I'm gonna sit back and laugh at the idea that Gov. Walker sent police to find the Democrats. He sent members of the state employee unions to find the people necessary for a vote to bust up state employee unions.

http://spaceballsfoundnothin.ytmnd.com/

Shoulda called Blackwat...Xe Security instead.[/QUOTE]
I was thinking about that last night, does he expect them to basically screw fellow union members? Dumbass...:roll:
 
[quote name='IRHari']Could someone frame this quote so we can bust it out every time someone asserts 'both sides do it too'? It's one thing to have a bunch of college kids calling Bush Hitler or something, it's another thing to elect multiple members of Congress who believe what is going on in America is exactly like Germany in the 1930s.[/QUOTE]

Less than one month ago: http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=13877505
A Tennessee Democrat is defending his comparison of Republican health care arguments to Nazi propaganda.[...]"Just like Goebbels, you say it enough, you repeat the lie, you repeat the lie, you repeat the lie, and eventually people believe it," Cohen said on the House floor. "The Germans said enough about the Jews and the people believed it and you had the Holocaust."
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Perhaps you should frame this quote underneath the other.

[quote name='mykevermin']1) Where's the intimidation alluded to in the video title?

2) Oh, any ideology has people who speak quite crassly or aren't intellectually deep. Us on the left are proud of the fact that, despite knowing we have them, we don't elect them to office or treat them as vanguards of a movement.

3) Do you have a point to make?[/QUOTE]

1) I didn't name the video.
2) Sure, sure...
3) Thought it was an interesting look at some of the argument personified. All too often, now, we get the glossy media picture. This raw, unedited footage is a great look inside the real process.
 
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it's another thing to elect multiple members of Congress who believe what is going on in America is exactly like Germany in the 1930s.
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it's another thing to elect multiple members of Congress who believe what is going on in America is exactly like Germany in the 1930s.
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Should note that the one example Bob cited got bipartisan condemnation really fast.
 
[quote name='UncleBob']Warning: Very Foul Language
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=NtB0gUuLBf0
[/QUOTE]

Intimidation? Really? I understand you didn't name the video but the creators of the video are being more than a little dramatic calling that intimidation. Although I did like that the creator asked him how much he made last year. Sure its not directly relevant to SB5 but it would be interesting to know just how much of a "working American" he is.

I do understand why the Union employees are there but the supporters of SB5 too? Those protesting for SB5 strike me as the type that just love doing things to get a rise out of people and irritate them. That video seems to strengthen my belief even more.

I am so, so, so tired of the Nazi thing at this point. I think even Hitler himself is tired of both sides calling each other Nazis or Hitler.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Should note that the one example Bob cited got bipartisan condemnation really fast.[/QUOTE]

Sorry, that incident was fresh enough, I figured it would be enough. Even more so after all the crying about softening political speak after the Arizona thing...

http://www.chicagonow.com/blogs/pub...rs-protest-rally-calling-opponent-a-nazi.html

First time Representative Democrat Debbie Halvorson of Illinois' 11th District is struggling in the polls against Republican Adam Kinzinger. Her desperation is starting to show, too, because her office just got caught supplying Democrat staffers to a protest rally holding signs that call Kinzinger a Nazi. Kinzinger is a veteran of the U.S. Air Force and flew missions in Iraq.
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http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/wor...ike-Hitler-says-first-Muslim-in-Congress.html
"It's almost like the Reichstag fire, kind of reminds me of that," Mr Ellison said. "After the Reichstag was burned, they blamed the Communists for it, and it put the leader [Hitler] of that country in a position where he could basically have authority to do whatever he wanted."

To applause from his audience of 300 members of Atheists for Human Rights, Mr Ellison said he would not accuse the Bush administration of planning 9/11 because "you know, that's how they put you in the nut-ball box - dismiss you".
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Do we really have to do this *every time*? I know you turn a blind eye to such events when your team pulls them, but this is ridiculous...
 
I see your Halvorson and Ellison, and I'll raise you a Paul Broun and Rand Paul. They're not just 'on your team', those are your dudes right? The extremely conservative libertarians who you'd vote for if they ever ran for President?
 
The big lie is the big lie. If cons didn't dwell in a parralell universe we wouldn't be discussing their hurt feelings instead of substance.
 
I like how it's vile that they're making comparisons to the Nazis and Hitler, but back in 2008 it was A-OK when conservatives were brandishing Obama Hitler/Nazi signs.

Btw...

Warner Todd Huston is a Chicago based freelance writer, has been writing opinion editorials and social criticism since early 2001 and is featured on many websites such as Andrew Breitbart's BigGovernment.com, RightWingNews.com, CanadaFreePress.com, StoptheACLU.com, TheRealityCheck.org, Human Events Magazine, AmericanDailyReview.com, and the New Media Journal, among many, many others. Additionally, he has been a frequent guest on talk-radio programs to discuss his opinion editorials and current events and is currently the co-host of "Life, Liberty, and the Pursuit of Conservatism" heard on BlogTalkRadio. Warner is also the editor of the Cook County Page for RedCounty.com.
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Now there is a credible source of information.
 
Yeah I'm done. Back OT.

Anyone know why every media outlet is spouting the same $3 bill shortfall that needs to be fixed? Anyone know why the only thing the media is talking about is the increase in payments to benefits, as opposed to the end of collective bargaining?
 
[quote name='IRHari']Yeah I'm done. Back OT.

Anyone know why every media outlet is spouting the same $3 bill shortfall that needs to be fixed? Anyone know why the only thing the media is talking about is the increase in payments to benefits, as opposed to the end of collective bargaining?[/QUOTE]

Yeah, that's been annoying. Sometimes the collective bargaining thing gets tacked on at the end of the story, if at all. I've noticed this in about 50% or so of the national media coverage I've seen, but at least there's another 50% that seems to be getting it right.
 
[quote name='IRHari']Yeah I'm done. Back OT.

Anyone know why every media outlet is spouting the same $3 bill shortfall that needs to be fixed? Anyone know why the only thing the media is talking about is the increase in payments to benefits, as opposed to the end of collective bargaining?[/QUOTE]

Our media is broken.
 
http://finance.yahoo.com/tech-ticke...BAC,C,^DJI&sec=topStories&pos=7&asset=&ccode=

Yeah, rather long article, but some interesting tidbits:

I recently spoke with IAFF President Harold Schaitberger about the campaign. He says a "hysteria" is being created by anti-union elements and those responsible for the pension fund crisis in the first place: Wall Street and reckless politicians.

-----

"What is this all about? This is all about the money," Schaitberger says.
"What this is really about is for Wall Street to be able to get their hands on the $2.7 trillion that are in institutionally managed [pension] plans."

If public employee pensions are converted from defined benefit plans to defined contribution plans such as 401Ks, "they know it's the next cash cow for Wall Street," he says. "Individuals will be charged higher fees, they'll be churning their investments and won't really have the ability to measure performance and objectives by those who will now be allegedly helping them prepare for retirement."

Schaitberger also takes umbrage with politicians who failed to live up to their obligations and now blame the unions for pension shortfalls. "Too many states have robbed people of their retirement security, but they are blaming workers for the crime," the IAFF declares, citing N.J. as the worst offender:

-----------------------------

It's kind of fascinating that this is coming to a head only now, as it's been a problem of sorts for about 8-10 years now.
What I don't understand is why this particular union is venomously against adding more of their pay to their own pension/benefit plan. Seems like it makes sense.
I also don't get why Gov. Walker is being such a psycho about the whole thing. It certainly sets the stage for what will be a completely unproductive term with nothing but bickering and vote blocking.

Also, these defined benefits just aren't feasable at the moment. They were negotiated and built at a time when return on investment was much higher...
 
Thanks for linking that article, nasum.

Benefits not being feasible did not stop executives from cashing out contractually obligated bonuses to the tune of billions of dollars of bailout funds. I don't see why it should be any different to honor contractual obligations to less wealthy and politically connected individuals. Benefits are pay that is deferred. It is allowing bosses and owners to retroactively change the terms of employment that they have already extracted labor for. Which is deeply unethical.

The main problem, nasum, is that we're demonizing honest workers with all our energy and focus, but it will result in reducing such a small portion of state and federal deficits. 100% of our energy on 4% of deficits, to the detriment of vulnerable workers - leaving 95% of our deficits unaltered.
 
http://www.fool.com/investing/general/2003/10/30/unions-good-or-bad.aspx

Old Article Is Old But Brings Up Some Decent Pro/Con, comments are funny too! It does seem like the notion of Unions are somewhat antiquated, and within the public sector there's almost too much of a quid pro quo going on in terms of lobbying and campaign donations.

That's what I mean by Gov Walker being a psycho, he's so concerned about this tiny little bit when there's so much other waste going on... Oh well, at least my Gov. just figures that taxing everyone who makes more than $30 an hour will solve all the woes of the world (your neighbor to the west)
 
[quote name='Msut77']So anyway, the strategy is to force a fiscal crisis and then use it go after the people you hate anyway (been the republican playbook for three decades now).[/QUOTE]

take out 'fiscal' and you have exactly what happened with Planned Parenthood this week and ACORN 2 years ago.
 
I am amazed that the Tea Party is getting involved. I mean, clearly they are backed by corporations and big money but I had no idea they would so willingly show their hand.
 
And a one

According to Wisconsin campaign finance filings, Walker's gubernatorial campaign received $43,000 from the Koch Industries PAC during the 2010 election. That donation was his campaign's second-highest, behind $43,125 in contributions from housing and realtor groups in Wisconsin. The Koch's PAC also helped Walker via a familiar and much-used politicial maneuver designed to allow donors to skirt campaign finance limits. The PAC gave $1 million to the Republican Governors Association, which in turn spent $65,000 on independent expenditures to support Walker. The RGA also spent a whopping $3.4 million on TV ads and mailers attacking Walker's opponent, Milwaukee Mayor Tom Barrett. Walker ended up beating Barrett by 5 points. The Koch money, no doubt, helped greatly.
The Kochs also assisted Walker's current GOP allies in the fight against the public-sector unions. Last year, Republicans took control of the both houses of the Wisconsin state legislature, which has made Walker's assault on these unions possible. And according to data from the Wisconsin Democracy Campaign, the Koch Industries PAC spent $6,500 in support of 16 Wisconsin Republican state legislative candidates, who each won his or her election.
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And a two


The Americans for Prosperity group, a Tea Party group that is a Koch Brothers front, has put up a website and petition called www.standwithwalker.com. The website attacks all collective bargaining – not just for public employees’ unions. Americans for Prosperity is also organizing a rally tomorrow in Wisconsin to support Gov. Walker.
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What's that slurping sound?
 
[quote name='cochesecochese']And a one


And a two



What's that slurping sound?[/QUOTE]

God damn it, tea party. The whole thing started in the first place to be a non-political group for lower taxes and now its completely spun itself into just a more conservative, extreme arm of the republican party. Fail, just fail. They've completely abandoned their apolitical ideals, lost all credibility at this point, and have done nothing but turn themselves into a parody.
 
http://www.mediaite.com/tv/liberal-media-this-week-unfairly-balances-tea-party-and-union-protests/

My favorite part:

Finally, in the most comical part of this report, Woodruff says that D’Abbraccio “got an earful from the pro-labor crowd,” then shows a clip of the GOP official wading into the crowd (which is ignoring him) bleating “We won! Deal with it!”
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Right, because for the past 2 years the GOP totally respected the fact that the Democrats won and 'dealt with it'. We should now defer to them and their union busting agenda.
 
I don't get why every news agency seems to be repeating that BS line about the $3.6 billion deficit. Do some homework people, geez.
 
Well, hopefully the snowplow union isn't on strike... Jesus Christ I got stuck in St. Paul for about 4 hours and nearly ditched my car three times in the 12 mile ride home which took the better part of two hours.
 
We're going to need some sort of verification of that bit about doctors handing out sick notes, and you should want it too, since that's a pretty serious claim.
 
I can see having a beef with public unions when you're talking about an A/P Filing Clerk that's been there for 30 years and because of defined raises and all that makes something like $75k a year, and then is on the hook for a pension that makes any private sector employee jealous. But can't we leave educators, health care providers and police/fire safety out of it?
 
[quote name='Don Chubo']http://maciverinstitute.com/2011/02/teacher-sick-outs-to-cost-taxpayers-more-than-6-million/

Not sure if the #s are right, but they shouldn't be getting sick pay to go protest - and something ought to be done about doctors passing out fraudulent sick notes.[/QUOTE]

Most companies don't have "sick days" anymore. You get a set amount of personal days that can be used for anything. We just have to call in at least two hours before our shift starts and we don't have to give a reason. You can call out for up to three days before you need a doctor's note. Since we work in a hospital, it's very easy to get a doctor's note when you're not really sick.

What's better? Teachers take a day or two to march or just go on a months long strike?
 
[quote name='Clak']We're going to need some sort of verification of that bit about doctors handing out sick notes, and you should want it too, since that's a pretty serious claim.[/QUOTE]

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2011/02/20/ap/business/main20034225.shtml#comments

Not sure if legit, but looks bad..

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2--iOWmpHTg

Smells like fraud so far. If this is what's going on, docs ought to have their licenses pulled. Protesting teachers ought to be canned it's not like they need to be there anyway, the unions are busing in an ample amount of protesters.
 
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