Wii, third-party support, and life

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Lan_Zer0

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This is probably a bad idea, but here we go...

http://blogs.ign.com/Matt-IGN/2008/01/16/77284/#comments

So this is a blog post from Matt Cassamassinaasdfasfs from IGN discussing publishers shying away from mature titles for Wii. The lack of mature titles and quality control in general for the Wii has been on my mind recently, and I felt it would be nice to discuss it with some of you.

About the blog post. I noticed Matt cited Manhunt 2 in his article, but I think that was largely ignored because it was a lazy game that was being violent just for the hell of it. I tried thinking of a non-port, well-done M rated game, and nothing came up off the top of my head.

As he mentioned, I do think we may be stuck in a situation where more "hardcore" games aren't being made (of good quality) because there are no good comparables on the market. This situation mainly stemming from developer's not putting their full effort behind a Wii release, so the games end up not reaching their full potential, scoring lower, selling less, and then induce developer's and the general public to view the Wii as a casual system, furthering this cycle.

Example. Namco decided to guage Wii owner interest in the Soul Calibur franchise by releasing a sub-par action game. The only thing that proves is that gamers don't like shitty games. Though to Namco, that may tell them that Wii owners aren't "hardcore" enough for a real fighting game.

What do you guys think about this issue? And what do you think Nintendo, as a company can do to fix it? (Though, chances are they don't even see that as a problem)

A couple things to note:
- Mature rating != good game, so let's get that out of the way first.
- Let's not have this conversation deteriote into bashing and picking apart posts. Though it probably will.
 
Well, M-rated: RE: UC. It will be discounted because it's Resident Evil, but it's out there and selling well.

Unfortunately a lot of stuff is not selling due to a very diverse customer base. It'd be great to say that since the Wii has a worldwide install base similar to the 360 games will sell comparably, but the 360 consists of almost entirely core gamers. The Wii does not. Is it half, a third? Who knows.

Once there are more games out on the market targetting different groups, we can begin to see how things shake out. I hate to use No More Heroes as an example, because I really don't think it has a chance, but perhaps it can be another game to sell beyond expectations now that it finds itself in a favorable position with little else to compete with.
 
As a developer working my (and my team's) ass off on a Wii game right now, I think it's really important to reiterate that this is not necessarily the fault of developers, but rather the limited vision of publishers. They've got the money, they call the shots. We can pitch "hardcore" [ie full of real content] games until we're blue, but it's up to them to give it the green light.

Trust me, it's frustrating, and a self-fulfilling prophecy.
 
[quote name='botticus']Well, M-rated: RE: UC. It will be discounted because it's Resident Evil, but it's out there and selling well.[/quote]
Yea, that's true. I would say it's also selling well because it's a good game, unique, and does the franchise justice for its genre.

[quote name='roland13x']
Trust me, it's frustrating, and a self-fulfilling prophecy.[/quote]
I'm really sorry to hear that. I hope you guys find a good publisher for your content.
 
Just look at the games coming out for the Wii this year. Besides established Nintendo games (such as Mario Kart and Smash Bros) I am interested in nothing else. Thankfully I have an Xbox 360 as well. It seems that not many games sell well on the Wii even though it has a diverse and large user base. Previous popular consoles (PS2, PS1, SNES, etc) didn't really have this problem (many games sold well on these systems).

I wonder if the Wii actually hurt the video game industry instead of helping it as was hyped.
 
Interested in reading some insightful posts (hopefully).

Glad to see your still around Roland! Looking forward to how it turns out!
 
[quote name='Snake2715']
Glad to see your still around Roland! Looking forward to how it turns out![/QUOTE]

Thanks for thinking of me/us, Snake2715. Our WiiWare title is actually coming along amazingly well. I really think we "found the fun". Unfortunately, our publisher has to give us the go-ahead to announce it, but we're headed down there this afternoon to convince them to go public with it. Once that happens, I'll be able to spill some more info out, set up a contest, and do all sorts of fun things.
 
It also hurts that developers can't just port over good games from the PS3/360 (ex. CoD4) without putting extra development time/money into the project. In addition, it will end up being branded as the "inferior" version by the target buyer (as it will be graphically weaker and have "weird" controls) and probably won't sell enough to justify the development time.

I just took a quick look at the M-rated games released thus far, and there's barely enough to make a "top 10," if even that. It looks like games such as MoH: Heroes 2 are getting away with "T" ratings, so there has yet to be a game that's M-rated, good, and not a guaranteed seller on the Wii. Though I would like for No More Heroes to begin the trend, I don't think that will happen.

Since he's using Manhunt 2 as an example, were the PS2 sales that much better than the Wii? With the larger userbase and cheaper MSRP at launch (and existing fanbase), it would have to be >2:1 for the Wii version to be as big a failure as he makes it out to be.
 
Third party games on the Wii will not sell unless demos of their games are out there for people to try out and experience. Hardcore gamers just aren't willing to drop money on a game they aren't necessarily sure about since the advent of the Xbox Live and PSN demos have spoiled them.

My main suggestions for 3rd parties would be to start throwing on demos of other games that they are working on for the Wii so that word on those projects can get out to other Wii games. Imagine if there had been a Zack & Wiki demo on Resident Evil 4 Wii disc or a No More Heroes demo on some other Ubisoft game like Rayman Raving Rabbits 2. There would be an in built hype for the games since people would have an idea of what to expect.

Otherwise no 3rd party game is going to sell well on the Wii at over a $29.99 price tag.
 
Soul Calibur legends was freaking garbage. Absolutely no one can deny that. That game had such potential.

RE UC was great! Online co op woulda been cool though.. and having to beat the game before 2 player unlocks kinda sucked.
 
I believe that free market forces will eventually win out. Even if 90% of the Wii's third-party publishers don't want to develop M-rated Wii titles, that just leaves a gaping opportunity for the remaining 10% to exploit. Then when that daring publisher needs a second warehouse to hold all the money he's making, the other 90% will be kicking themselves for missing the boat.

That said, I continue to point the blame at third parties who don't advertise their Wii games. Zack and Wiki and Medal of Honor: Heroes 2, in particular, are two recent high-quality games that were abandoned by their publishers with low production runs and/or no advertising. Is it any surprise that third-party Wii games that actually get advertised (Sonic and the Secret Rings, Tiger Woods, Carnival Games) sell well?

--R.J.
 
It's Nintendo's fault. Sony and Microsoft work their asses off to get good titles, sign deals, and foster relationships with developers and promoting. Nintendo does well enough selling their own games, so they don't give a fuck. Nintendo doesn't even give a shit enough to release downloadable demos (though hopefully that will change in the US soon).
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']It's Nintendo's fault. Sony and Microsoft work their asses off to get good titles, sign deals, and foster relationships with developers and promoting. Nintendo does well enough selling their own games, so they don't give a fuck. Nintendo doesn't even give a shit enough to release downloadable demos (though hopefully that will change in the US soon).[/quote]Monster Hunter 3?

If a third party actually promoted their game, and then it didn't work, I could see blaming Nintendo for not helping. No More Heroes is out in a week, and I'm not entirely sure why Ubisoft bothered picking up the publishing rights for it, no one knows it's hitting shelves.

I have a feeling your thread and this will have identical discussions within about 10 posts.
 
Nintendo is stuck doing what they have been doing since the 64.
Good 1st party, shit 3rd party.
The Wii isint gonna change that.
 
[quote name='botticus']Monster Hunter 3?[/QUOTE]
What did Nintendo have to do with that coming to the Wii? As far as I know, it's only coming to the Wii because Capcom didn't want to wager the high development costs of doing it on the PS3.

Then again I don't know much about Monster Hunter.

[quote name='willardhaven']At least their first-party games are delicious.[/QUOTE]
The 3rd party games can be delicious too, the problem is they don't sell.
 
I'm really looking forward to Monster Hunter 3 and I hope Nintendo starts working hard to bring more games like that to the Wii. I think I am in the small group of people that don't buy Nintendo consoles for first party games. Nintendo games are lovely, but generally I find my personal console defining games come from 3rd parties.

As a side note, Contact is one of my favorite games on the DS.
 
[quote name='PyroGamer']What did Nintendo have to do with that coming to the Wii? As far as I know, it's only coming to the Wii because Capcom didn't want to wager the high development costs of doing it on the PS3.

Then again I don't know much about Monster Hunter.


The 3rd party games can be delicious too, the problem is they don't sell.[/quote]It wasn't a decision they made on their own.
Nintendo Co Ltd, the world's largest maker of portable game consoles, on Wednesday won an exclusive deal in which major game developer Capcom Co Ltd will supply its blockbuster Monster Hunter 3 action game title for its Wii home-use, stand-alone game machines.

The Osaka-based Capcom had previously said it was developing Monster Hunter 3 for Sony Computer Entertainment Inc's PlayStation 3 game console. The company's Monster Hunter 1 and 2 games were exclusively offered on PlayStation 2 consoles.
Click to expand...

In unveiling the exclusive deal with the influential game developer, Nintendo president Satoru Iwata said that the company is now "entering the third phase of its strategy, aimed at expanding the game player population." "With the release of the Nintendo DS portable game console and Wii stand-alone game machine, we managed to lure those who have never played games or those who have stopped playing games to play them," Iwata said.

"I understand that some experts argue that our success is short-lived and temporary. So, we now need to make efforts to constantly expand the player base by offering services and titles that can appeal not only to those who have never played games but also to those who play them hard," he said.
Click to expand...
 
[quote name='InuFaye']Wasnt the ps2 monster hunter a bomb compared to the psp versions?[/quote]The PSP games sell a lot better (900k and 1.5 million in Japan respectively) than the PS2 games did (200k and 500k), maybe due to the online aspect? Release order was MH1, MHP1, MH2, MHP2.
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']Third party games on the Wii will not sell unless demos of their games are out there for people to try out and experience. Hardcore gamers just aren't willing to drop money on a game they aren't necessarily sure about since the advent of the Xbox Live and PSN demos have spoiled them.

My main suggestions for 3rd parties would be to start throwing on demos of other games that they are working on for the Wii so that word on those projects can get out to other Wii games. Imagine if there had been a Zack & Wiki demo on Resident Evil 4 Wii disc or a No More Heroes demo on some other Ubisoft game like Rayman Raving Rabbits 2. There would be an in built hype for the games since people would have an idea of what to expect.

Otherwise no 3rd party game is going to sell well on the Wii at over a $29.99 price tag.[/QUOTE]


I can't say I buy this argument for the sales. The problem is that the quality third party games on the Wii thus far have been in niche genres (Zak and Wiki), light gun game without a real light gun (Ghost Squad, RE:UC), were ports that most hardcore gamers already played elsewhere (RE4-though that still sold well despite the fact), FPS games that were pretty crappy compared to the top in the Genre etc. Not to mention all the mini-game compilations.

Demos don't have that big of an impact, because on the 360 for most big titles demos don't come out on XBL until MONTHS after the game launches. For example there aren't playable demos of Assassin's Creed or Mass Effect up yet. There are videos, but those don't help much IMO as serious gamers buying these types of games are the same people who keep up on games online etc. and can see videos that way.

Lack of decent online play, downloadable content etc. also may also hurts Wii game sales. To some, $50 for a single player only game may seem like a lot compared to $50-60 for a game on the other systems that has single player and a robust online mode, possibility for expansions to be put out etc. But that's a big IF for me as I'm not sure how much a selling point online stuff is on a grand scale. Definitely a major factor among the hardcore, but not sure about on a larger scale.

And of course the other problem is quality. For the few games that are multiplatform across all three, the Wii version is usually a half assed port and the worst of the 3 by far--i.e. Call of Duty 3. So developers are going to see poor sales of these games (from their poor effort with the titles) and be less inclined to bother putting out those types of genres on the Wii in the future.
 
Nintendo is stuck doing what they have been doing since the 64.
Good 1st party, shit 3rd party.
The Wii isint gonna change that.

"Excuse me, but what about all of the awesome games that came out for the Nintendo Gamecube that Nintendo DIDN'T make on their own?? You've got the Star Wars Rogue Squadrons, the Resident Evils (even though Grandma wouldn't let me have them--I still know they're great!), Eternal Darkness (same here), Ikaruga, Viewtiful Joe, Soul Calibur II...why, even Star Fox Adventures was farmed out to Rare, back when they weren't making doodie games for the Devil at Microsoft! Don't mess with Nintendo! With Sonic on board now, they will be in-dom-it-ab-le, I say! This is the beginning of a Golden Age of Gaming Greatness! It's only a matter of time before he and Mario take us on a magical, epic adventure through the Mushroom Kingdom and the forests of his own world! And I, for one, will be there carrying their water bottles and mushroom chips for them! And don't try to hide be-hind an avatar of Jes-si-ca Al-ba! I see how you're trying to distract us!"

(Special thanks to Shawn Elliott for giving me the voice inside my head--and the picture here--to refer to for these...people.)
 
The new GameInformer lists 20 games to look forward to in 2008 for the Wii. The games are:

baroque
bomberman land
deca sports
the house of the dead 2&3 return
emergency mayhem
fragile: farewell ruins of the moon
harvest moon: tree of tranquility
mushroom men: the spore wars
dragon quest swords: the masked queen and the tower of mirrors
obscure: the aftermath
ninja reflex
monster lab
wild earth: african safari
wonderworld amusement park
wwii aces
samba de amigo
wii music
opoona
target: terror

(why are there only 19 games listed?)


I look through the list and there is only one game here I am semi interested in (Samba de Amigo) and that is only if it comes down to a budget price ($20 or less). I don't really care for the other games. The Wii is getting so many crap games even though its selling so well. Imagine how worse it would be if the Wii sold comparable to the GameCube...
 
[quote name='PyroGamer'] As far as I know, it's only coming to the Wii because Capcom didn't want to wager the high development costs of doing it on the PS3.
[/quote]
This right here guarantees 3rd party support through the entirety of the generation, more so as the marketshare gap widens.

Monster Hunter joins Fatal Frame and the likes of Vanillaware in that many games cant actually afford HD, either because they are not popular enough, or no one will allocate them big budgets (Suda 51).

Furthermore, there has never been a situation where winning marketshare didnt result in the most number and variety of games. While there are a lot of new precedents going around, I dont expect that one to break.

Even further still, I would say that shovelware is the best single predictor of the health of the platform. You can singularly predict the placement of NES/SNES/PS1/PS2 just by that alone. Those developers are most finely attuned to the marketshare situation and dev cost situation.
 
[quote name='Dr Mario Kart']
Even further still, I would say that shovelware is the best single predictor of the health of the platform. You can singularly predict the placement of NES/SNES/PS1/PS2 just by that alone. Those developers are most finely attuned to the marketshare situation and dev cost situation.[/quote]Didn't see this argument coming. Isn't shovelware commonly regarded as one of the main things that killed Atari (and almost killed videogames)?
 
[quote name='Zen Davis']in suggestions for 3rd parties would be to start throwing on demos of other games that they are working on for the Wii so that word on those projects can get out to other Wii games. Imagine if there had been a Zack & Wiki demo on Resident Evil 4 Wii disc or a No More Heroes demo on some other Ubisoft game like Rayman Raving Rabbits 2. There would be an in built hype for the games since people would have an idea of what to expect.[/QUOTE]
Of course! Cross-promote your E-for-everyone point and click adventure game by bundling a demo in with your M-rated, violent, survival-horror shooting game. Also, put an M-rated slash-em-up demo on the same disc as your family-friendly party game. Genius!

I don't think this kind of promotion would help much. As far as I know, Carnival Games etc. have had little to no promotion, and sell like hotcakes.
 
[quote name='pete5883']Of course! Cross-promote your E-for-everyone point and click adventure game by bundling a demo in with your M-rated, violent, survival-horror shooting game. Also, put an M-rated slash-em-up demo on the same disc as your family-friendly party game. Genius!

I don't think this kind of promotion would help much. As far as I know, Carnival Games etc. have had little to no promotion, and sell like hotcakes.[/quote]

Actually, I remember seeing Carnival Game's commercial repeated a few hundred times on some channels (still didn't make me wanna buy it). The advertising was there, and it was kinda amusing (a family dressed up as different carny folk playing the games).

Meanwhile the *only* reason I knew about Zack and Wiki is because it was being pushed here, and a brief mention at some other board.

3rd parties doing games for the Wii need to actually start making some damn commercials and other advertising. I only see first party (Metroid, Mario Party, Wii itself), and commercials for 3rds of OTHER systems. If people were actually able to SEE the cute golden monkey and see the otaku kicking ass with a really stupid looking lightsaber, the problem wouldn't be nearly as bad.
 
So true. I rarely watch TV but have caught numerous 1st party Nintendo game commercials, and have seen a few cross-platform game commercials. I did see that Carnival Games commercial once or twice, but never saw Zack & Wiki. I only bought it because I saw it at CAG, and I am so happy I did because it's my favorite Wii game (even over SMG, which I like alot also). These 3rd party cos. need to start advertising to get their games to stand out above the shovelware or else people won't take a chance on a no-name game for $40-50 bucks when they can buy a couple of shovelware games that look interesting but are half the gamble.
 
When you're dealing with the HUGE non-gamer install base for the Wii, you need ADVERTISING.

All of Carnival Games sales (and it sold fairly well, especially considering the virtually nonexistent dev costs) are from clueless folk who don't know what to buy for their Wii, then see Carnival Games advertisements flooding the airwaves, and then go see it for $40 at the store and pick it up based on the voices in their head (and on their TV) telling them to get it.

[quote name='VioletArrows']Yeah, but it didn't kill the Gameboy line and the PS2 (1700 games? Probably 600 of them playable.)[/QUOTE]
Very true. The way people used the PS2's huge list of shovelware games to promote it, I could see being used the same way for the Wii.
 
[quote name='The Crotch']Isn't shovelware commonly regarded as one of the main things that killed Atari (and almost killed videogames)?[/QUOTE]
No. There were many factors that led to the video-game crash of the early '80s, including a flood of shovelware, uninformed retailers who bought said shovelware in droves, and speculative investors who tossed too much money into the field without doing proper research -- factors which don't exist today. The only reason shovelware for the Wii is getting attention right now is because retailers were desperate to take any and all Wii games for the Christmas shopping season; by December 2008, the Wii library should be broad enough that retailers won't have to set their standards that low.

--R.J.
 
Hmm... well I was worried that there weren't any legitimate games coming out on the Wii, especially from 3rd parties, but now that the year is over, it's clear that that isn't the case. There's good stuff out there, but there's simply a lot more dog shit. The first way to solve this is if third party developers realize that "oh wait, we're producing shit and maybe that's why people aren't buying our games." Of course, that kind of epiphany will never happen given the kind of shit that these companies are willing to put out... they clearly don't care. So the most valid solution is to have Nintendo put a quality assurance program back in place that makes sure that the game turns on, isn't shit, and hopefully isn't developed by Midway or some other incompetant studio. Of course, what incentive does Nintendo have to do that right now? They don't need the third party developers... they're selling more than enough on their own, and they've got the games that people want.

Essentially, there's nothing that can be done.
 
Nintendo should just start letting companies use Mario in Wii games in one form or another... that way, people will buy third party games.
 
I picked up Thrillville for the wife as a small Christmas gift. She just got opening it last night... and there was a built in preview to the Lego Star Wars Saga on it... I immediately thought of this thread. So some built in demo type things are happening.
 
I prefer the Wii for the family friendly titles that it has. Out of our 25 or 30 games I think I have maybe 3 that I don't let my 6 year old son play.

- Resident Evil 4
- Zelda TP
- Mortal Kombat

However on my 360 and the 30 or so games I have for it he only has a handful that he can play.


I think if you are a hard core gamer then the Wii does have a few titles that you will enjoy, but you would be far better served by choosing another system. On the flip side of that, if you are a gamer who has kids, like myself, the Wii is an excellent system as I can introduce my kids to the world of gaming and how much fun it can be without worrying about who they meet on XBL.

The vast majority of my Wii titles are kid-friendly. Many wouldn't appeal to the normal browsers of this site. But my kids love them, and they are tolerable enough to watch and play when they need help.

And believe me, kids can recognize crap when they see it. I picked up Ice Age 2 on clearance at CC and my son played it for about an hour before he said "Daddy, this game is really bad, can we take it back".
 
You know, a few take-the-piss posts aside, this has been the best discussion possible. Kudos to Lan Zero for having the cohones to start it.
 
For the Dec NPD top 100, 20 Wii games charted, versus 18 for 360. Wii games outsold 360 games overall. This is despite a nearly 20% marketshare advantage for the 360, and a reputation/history for moving software.

Only 5 of those are first party Nintendo titles.

Furthermore, Every title till rank 121 sold over 100k units.

I think those 3rd parties are happy, especially considering how little their efforts have cost so far.

For a slightly broader perspective, lets take a look at the U.K., week 3 '08. Similar Story.

TOP 40 ENTERTAINMENT SOFTWARE - INDIVIDUAL FORMATS (UNITS), WEEK ENDING 19 January 2008
01 (__) [WII] Mario & Sonic At The Olympic Games (Sega)
02 (02) [NDS] Dr Kawashima's Brain Training (Nintendo)
03 (03) [NDS] More Brain Training From Dr Kawashima (Nintendo)
04 (05) [WII] Super Mario Galaxy (Nintendo)
05 (01) [360] Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Activision)
06 (20) [WII] Wii Play (Nintendo)
07 (08) [NDS] New Super Mario Bros. (Nintendo)
08 (07) [NDS] Cooking Mama (505 Games)
09 (04) [WII] Big Brain Academy: Wii Degree (Nintendo)
10 (06) [360] Assassin's Creed (Ubisoft)
11 (10) [PS3] Assassin's Creed (Ubisoft)
12 (__) [WII] Ghost Squad (Sega)
13 (09) [PS3] Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Activision)
14 (__) [WII] Link's Crossbow Training (Nintendo)
15 (24) [WII] Mario Party 8 (Nintendo)
16 (22) [NDS] Sight Training (Nintendo)
17 (__) [WII] Zack & Wiki: Quest For Barbaros Treasure (Capcom)
18 (__) [NDS] Imagine: Babies (Ubisoft)
19 (28) [NDS] The Simpsons Game (Electronic Arts)
20 (12) [PS3] Uncharted: Drake's Fortune (Sony Computer Ent.)
21 (__) [NDS] Mario Kart Ds (Nintendo)
22 (11) [PC] Football Manager 2008 (Sega)
23 (__) [WII] Carnival: Funfair Games (Take 2)
24 (18) [360] Halo 3 (Microsoft)
25 (31) [360] Mass Effect (Microsoft)
26 (23) [WII] Mario Strikers Charged Football (Nintendo)
27 (27) [WII] Tiger Woods Pga Tour 08 (Electronic Arts)
28 (__) [WII] Lego Star Wars: The Complete Saga (Lucasarts)
29 (__) [NDS] My Word Coach (Ubisoft)
30 (__) [NDS] Mysims (Electronic Arts)
31 (29) [360] Forza Motorsport 2 (Microsoft)
32 (25) [360] Guitar Hero Iii: Legends Of Rock (Activision)
33 (14) [PS3] Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (Konami)
34 (17) [PC] Call Of Duty 4: Modern Warfare (Activision)
35 (21) [WII] Super Paper Mario (Nintendo)
36 (16) [PS2] Guitar Hero Iii: Legends Of Rock (Activision)
37 (33) [WII] Wario Ware: Smooth Moves (Nintendo)
38 (__) [NDS] Who Wants To Be A Millionaire? (Ubisoft)
39 (__) [WII] Sonic And The Secret Rings (Sega)
40 (26) [360] Pro Evolution Soccer 2008 (Konami)

 Wii = 15
DS = 11
X360 = 7
PS3 = 4
PC = 2
PS2 = 1
 
I agree this has been an interesting discussion.

But, I'm one of these people that just doesn't see this happening. Sorry, we have a pretty long history here (starting with the N64), where it has really become obvious that Nintendo works their own way. They aren't going to push for huge 3rd party support.

But, I would say give it a year. I think most developers were waiting for the PS3 to eventually get the lead here. That isn't likely to happen. So, with the huge install base, some developers will find it profitable to make games for it.

But, on to mature games. I just don't see this market developing. You have a strong mature market on both the PS3 and the 360. On the Wii, they are marketing much more towards families and even non-gamers. These people aren't looking to cut someone's head off with a Wii controller. They are looking for a fun, non offensive time. I think screaming for mature games on the Wii is like screaming for Disney to make more violent/sexy films. Sure, they put out Pirates, but for the most part, Disney isn't going to give you that. It's out there, but not from them. Mature gaming is out there.

Also, one final comment, I do think the Wii was revolutionary. Let's look at the controller's for the next generation. My hunch is that you are going to end up with a pack in peripheal for the new MS and PS systems that will be similar to a Wii remote. They will have a traditional controller, but they will also have something simpler too, for more motion sensing gaming. Motion sensing gaming will take off, just the next generation (much like the N64 had analog controls, and by the next generation, it was standard everywhere else).

Really, now many huge 3rd party games were on the N64? Looking back, the games that are played today were 1st/2nd party games. With the Cube, there was Res 4. However, after that, there wasn't too much. Remember, fans were screaming with the Cube that they NEEDED more support.

So, now the Wii hits, nothing has changed, and this is the number 1 system this generation. You'll have a very hard time convincing those at Nintendo that people want 3rd party games.
 
[quote name='lordxixor101']I agree this has been an interesting discussion.

But, I'm one of these people that just doesn't see this happening. Sorry, we have a pretty long history here (starting with the N64), where it has really become obvious that Nintendo works their own way. They aren't going to push for huge 3rd party support.

But, on to mature games. I just don't see this market developing. You have a strong mature market on both the PS3 and the 360. On the Wii, they are marketing much more towards families and even non-gamers. These people aren't looking to cut someone's head off with a Wii controller. They are looking for a fun, non offensive time. I think screaming for mature games on the Wii is like screaming for Disney to make more violent/sexy films. Sure, they put out Pirates, but for the most part, Disney isn't going to give you that. It's out there, but not from them. Mature gaming is out there.

So, now the Wii hits, nothing has changed, and this is the number 1 system this generation. You'll have a very hard time convincing those at Nintendo that people want 3rd party games.[/quote]
I think the genius in that statement is that Nintendo works in its own way. It's worked for them this far and I too don't see them changing their strategy anytime soon. I also love the Disney analogy. I have loved Nintendo since I was a little kid - I also had a PS1, PS2, and XBOX but I found myself rarely playing those systems as much as I played my Nintendo systems. Call me a fanboy, casual gamer, whatever but I just sucked at most of those other games and systems. So I can see why Nintendo is catering to people like me because well we buy their system! So I understand the lack of hardcore mature games, but I think they're coming.

I could be clueless but just thinking about it my notion is indeed the new system in itself causing a delay in 3rd party stuff. Playstation and Microsoft while beefing up their system each generation isn't a huge difference as a whole - it's still a classic system with classic controls, etc but better graphics. Whereas Nintendo went from the same thing with the Gamecube to an entirely new technology (game wise) with the Wii. I really think it's just a baby step progress for the N AND 3rd party people as they learn exactly how all this works and sells.

Obviously Nintendo holding back on dev kits with 3rd party developers doesn't hurt anything but I just think they're being cautious (which isn't always a good thing I know). But this is all just my opinion after very little research and just being a general n00b. Please forgive me :bouncy:
 
Its impossible to maintain lead marketshare without widespread 3rd party support. The N64 & GC 3rd party issues were actually MARKETSHARE issues. If it was just Nintendo being Nintendo, you'd have to account for the NES/SNES period, where they had so many 3rd parties that they were being dicks to them. How they did get them? Marketshare
 
I think Nintendo is kind of in a mixed bag here. They probably want some third party support to gain Marketshare as DMK said. But then again, with there sales and marketing to non-gamers maybe they don't need it so much as selling the console for Wii Sports, Wii Fit etc. might be enough to keep them on top (though that will hurt software attache rates).

On the other hand, their big money maker is their games, so it's to their benefit to have their first party titles not face a lot of competition and be assured to sell millions.
 
I think one of the bigger issues with getting quality third party games is the motion control aspect. Wii's biggest advantage is also a detriment to third party publishers like EA who just try and make money hand over fist with as little money/time spent as possible. It's very hard to make a third party game, make it cross-platform, and then not make it feel like motion controls are tacked on. A quality third party Wii game almost needs to be Wii-exclusive.
 
Yeah, that's definitely part of it. And third parties know that games in a lot of genres will make them more money selling on both the 360 and PS3 at $60 than on the Wii at $50 both do to having (I assume) a larger base since it's too consoles, a higher price point, and that games like FPS etc. have shown to sell better on the PS#/360 than the Wii where Nintendo first party titles have been the big sellers.

And we're not going to see Nintendo pay developers to get big time exclusives, as again they'd both be throwing away money at the outset, and the end result would just be another good game competing with their first party titles for sales further lowering their profits.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']Yeah, that's definitely part of it. And third parties know that games in a lot of genres will make them more money selling on both the 360 and PS3 at $60 than on the Wii at $50 both do to having (I assume) a larger base since it's too consoles, a higher price point, and that games like FPS etc. have shown to sell better on the PS#/360 than the Wii where Nintendo first party titles have been the big sellers.

And we're not going to see Nintendo pay developers to get big time exclusives, as again they'd both be throwing away money at the outset, and the end result would just be another good game competing with their first party titles for sales further lowering their profits.[/QUOTE]

I think you're conflating a lot of issues there. For one, it seems to me the reason shooters are selling better on the 360 than the Wii is because the Wii has, what two good ones? Red Steel sold over a million units. It has nothing to do with which genre 'belongs' on which console. You're also ignoring the development cost differences.

And your logic that has Nintendo not wanting exclusives because they'd compete with first party titles seems like a stretch. First off, Nintendo titles generally sell well, regardless -- they don't need to be the only big names on the box. Second, the Wii selling like this is unprecedented. If Nintendo wants to sell lots of copies of Mario, it needs to sell lots of systems, and to do that, it needs more big exclusive games than it can make itself. Even if the Wii is almost self-contained, Nintendo knew this the last two generations, and it's a hell of a lot smarter than it was in the N64 days. Hell, Nintendo went balls to the wall to get the Resident Evil series exclusive to the Cube -- that's something Nintendo wouldn't have bothered to do if they really just secretly wanted meager competition.

You're right that we're NOT going to see Nintendo pay a developer for a big exclusive, though -- they know that publishers will eventually see where their bread is buttered and make the logical decision without the Big N having to shell out lots of payola for exclusives. In essence, it's Sony during the PS1 era -- it didn't have to fork over tons of dough for exclusives, because CDs were cheaper and had a better profit margin than carts, and the rest fell into place.
 
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