Xbox 360 $299 and $399!!!

[quote name='zzl365']Well, certainly PC hardware will catch up (probably already has), but to be on the cutting edge in the PC world is very expensive.[/QUOTE]
True enough. But by that philosophy, wouldn't it be justifiable to produce a $1500 console that was a few years ahead of its time? I mean, you'd be paying 5x more for it, but you'd get hardware that's still cutting-edge in three or four years. Is that worth it?

In the tech industry, there's always a balance between cost and power. You've got to give your hardware enough muscle without making it too expensive. Nintendo and Sony seem to have found a balance and stuck with it for 10+ years, 20+ in Nintendo's case. (I guess Sony has kind of missed it with the PSP, but that's a different topic altogether.) Microsoft has already "broken the mold", if you will, after four years in the industry.

A lot of people are skeptical (and rightly so) that Microsoft has the authority to change things so drastically in an industry where they are still relatively young. Anyone would admit (or should, anyway), that the Xbox clearly showed some big problems because Microsoft wasn't experienced enough to know what they were doing. Who's to say that this pricing isn't a similar "noob" mistake? Judging by early feedback, it certainly seems that way.
 
an extra... $100 isn't over over priced IMO...

for watchu getting it's a fair price... beside for the Harddrive... which I think should be included w/ the core system...

Run Down "fair IMO":
Wireless controller: Goes for around $40 1st party ( all my current controller is wireless)
HD Cables: $30-$40 by-it-self
Head set: $20
eternet cable: $10
remote control: $15 (I could care less anout this 1...)
Harddrive 20GB: (no need to buy expensive memory card ever)
still the package is well worth the $100...

more useful stuff than a PSP value package...
 
Even though I like wireless controllers every time a play NASCAR 2005 my car never gets up to full speed with a logitech controller. So I will probably buy a wired controller just for racing games, because I have had this problem on the PS2 and Xbox with logitech and also 3rd party wired controllers.
 
If people would just forget the "core" system even exist....just accept the price of a 360 is $400 and move on. This is the new trend of offering value packs to jack up prices but unlike the PSP "value" pack....the 360 one is actualy a good deal.
 
[quote name='evanft']STATIC3D is right, and zzl365 can't seem to read.

STATIC3D isn't speaking about graphical capabilities, he's talking about out of the box functionality. Lemme break it down (sorry if done already):

Xbox-2001-$300
-Play games
-Play music CDs
-Custom soundtracks
-Save games
-Download new content for games
-Faster load times than competing systems because of HDD
-Play online/save player data from online games

Xbox 360 Core System-2005-$300:
-Play Games
-Play music CDs
-Play DVD movies (It can, right?)

So you HAVE to spend $100 to get the same functionality. You get more if you choose to go with the premium system, but you don't if you buy the core system and a separate HDD.[/QUOTE]

It's not that I can't read, it's that there are big differences between the Xbox 4 years ago, and the 360 now. You wouldn't buy a Honda Accord and a Honda Civic for the same price and expect the same features. The Accord is a much nicer car, and maybe to get it down to the same price you would need to get a manual transmission, no A/C, no Power locks/windows, etc. On the other hand you can buy an Accord for more money and get all of the features that the Civic had and then some. Additionally, out of the box for the original Xbox, you certainly were not able to play games online/download content, that required XBL, which will now be free on the weekends, and allow for downloading premium content without a subscription (of course you will need something to save it to). I understand that you aren't getting some features that were available in the original Xbox for the same price, but you really can't compare the prices for the original Xbox and the price for the 360. If MS had pared down the system and made it with a 2 GHZ chip instead/cheaper graphics card/less RAM, everyone would be complaining about that. Did anyone complain when the PS1 didn't allow people to save games to the game media? That was a feature lost from the SNES. No, because there are tradeoffs, and that was an acceptable tradeoff. If you don't think you are getting as many features from the 360 as you were the Xbox out of the box, compare it to the PS2, you are getting the same features as you did for the PS2 out of the box and then some (i.e. Network adapter), and the PS2 was much more successful than the XBox.
 
[quote name='rohlfinator']True enough. But by that philosophy, wouldn't it be justifiable to produce a $1500 console that was a few years ahead of its time? I mean, you'd be paying 5x more for it, but you'd get hardware that's still cutting-edge in three or four years. Is that worth it?

In the tech industry, there's always a balance between cost and power. You've got to give your hardware enough muscle without making it too expensive. Nintendo and Sony seem to have found a balance and stuck with it for 10+ years, 20+ in Nintendo's case. (I guess Sony has kind of missed it with the PSP, but that's a different topic altogether.) Microsoft has already "broken the mold", if you will, after four years in the industry.

A lot of people are skeptical (and rightly so) that Microsoft has the authority to change things so drastically in an industry where they are still relatively young. Anyone would admit (or should, anyway), that the Xbox clearly showed some big problems because Microsoft wasn't experienced enough to know what they were doing. Who's to say that this pricing isn't a similar "noob" mistake? Judging by early feedback, it certainly seems that way.[/QUOTE]

Could be a mistake, but I don't think $100 is a bad tradeoff though if I get one extra year out of my console. I doubt that the 360 would have been released this year if MS had used new hardware when putting the original Xbox on the market. I don't know that I will buy a 360 at launch, but I really doubt that the PS3 will be anymore affordable (I'm thinking 500 without an HDD).
 
I used to be pissed about the hard drive, because now it isn't used for caching data and making the game worlds bigger, but the microsoft representative made a good point to me today.

They've got 512 mb of ram to work with in their games, now.

Just last generation, the largest storage media (PSOne) was around 650mb (at max, most games didn't even use that full space) add to that that many launch ps2 and xbox games used CDs for storage too. I know halo 1 was one of them, with just around 400-600mb of total data on a disc, if i remember correctly.

So you're talking about a console that at any given time can have about as much data as was available for creating an entire game last generation in its memory. That is absurd. I can only imagine the kind of detailed, living, breathing worlds that will be possible. The hard drive cache isn't as relevant anymore for the 360, and if developers need it two years down the road, they'll still have it there. Ship numbers are looking like 60-40 bundle/core systems. Most will have the hard drive. Most will want it. I have confidence in the 360, I think it's going to rock.
 
[quote name='Kelcey']Yeah, that's the only thing I'm peeved about. I was expecting 400 bucks for the system with hard drive and I think that's a fair deal. It's just that the peripherals you'll buy after, will cost you more than usual.[/QUOTE]

they'll go down. They're just making their extra dollars on the early adopters. Xbox controllers were around $40 corded when xbox 1 released, weren't they?

besides im not buying any peripherals, right away anyway. People can bring their controllers over if they want to play. I didn't buy any extra xbox controllers or cables until just last year.
 
The $299 version costs MS $375 to make
http://www.juiceenewsdaily.com/0605/entertainment/xbox.html

Here is the 360's price compared to other consoles, adjusted for inflation:
http://xbox360.ign.com/articles/643/643170p1.html

Atari VCS launched in 1977 for $249.99 = $811.21 in 2005
Nintendo Entertainment System launched in 1985 for $199.99 = $354.91 in 2005
SEGA Genesis launched in 1989 for $249.99 = $389.67 in 2005
NeoGeo launched in 1990 for $699.99 = $1041.12 in 2005
Super Nintendo launched in 1991 for $199.99 = $282.21 in 2005
Jaguar launched in 1993 for $249.99 = $328.69 in 2005
3DO Interactive Multiplayer launched in 1993 for $699.95 = $920.30 in 2005
SEGA Saturn launched in 1995 for $399.99 = $497.66 in 2005
Nintendo 64 launched in 1996 for $199.99 = $242.75 in 2005
SEGA Dreamcast launches in 1999 for $199.99 = $228.09 in 2005
PlayStation launched in 1995 for $299.99 = $372.01 in 2005
PlayStation 2 launched in 2000 for $299.99 = $333.15 in 2005
Xbox Launched in 2001 for $299.99 = $325.34 in 2005
GameCube launched in 2001 for $199.99 = $216.89 in 2005
 
Very interesting...keep in mind that $375 cost number is only an analyst's prediction (from over 2 months ago).
If it is true, I would imagine Microsoft does better on the $400 version.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']3DO Interactive Multiplayer launched in 1993 for $699.95 = $920.30 in 2005[/QUOTE]
$920.30!!!!

What did this 3DO system do? because for a thousand bucks it better microwave hot-pockets while playing Killzone 2
 
[quote name='zzl365']It's not that I can't read, it's that there are big differences between the Xbox 4 years ago, and the 360 now. You wouldn't buy a Honda Accord and a Honda Civic for the same price and expect the same features. The Accord is a much nicer car, and maybe to get it down to the same price you would need to get a manual transmission, no A/C, no Power locks/windows, etc. On the other hand you can buy an Accord for more money and get all of the features that the Civic had and then some. .[/QUOTE]

If the 2 cars are the same price, then buying the Accord w/o all the extra features would be a financially stupid idea.

You also have to realize that there's also a time difference here. With game consoles, what you got for $300 five years ago is gonna be a lot less power-wise than what you get now for $300. Now, if that was true of a Accord, then you'd have a pretty good argument. But, I doubt the Accord made today are multiple times more powerful than the ones made five years ago.

So really, you'd have to be comparing the Xbox at the price it is RIGHT NOW to get the analogy to work. And doing that would just be rediculous.


[quote name='zzl365'] Additionally, out of the box for the original Xbox, you certainly were not able to play games online/download content, that required XBL, which will now be free on the weekends, and allow for downloading premium content without a subscription (of course you will need something to save it to). [/QUOTE]

You can't save out of the box, so your point is null and void.

[quote name='zzl365'] I understand that you aren't getting some features that were available in the original Xbox for the same price, but you really can't compare the prices for the original Xbox and the price for the 360. If MS had pared down the system and made it with a 2 GHZ chip instead/cheaper graphics card/less RAM, everyone would be complaining about that. [/QUOTE]

Again, an increase in power IS EXPECTED. A decrease in functionality is not.

[quote name='zzl365']Did anyone complain when the PS1 didn't allow people to save games to the game media? That was a feature lost from the SNES. No, because there are tradeoffs, and that was an acceptable tradeoff. [/QUOTE]

The transition from cartridge-based to CD-based media was a much greater and much more necessary one than the transition from the Xbox to the Xbox 360.

[quote name='zzl365']If you don't think you are getting as many features from the 360 as you were the Xbox out of the box, compare it to the PS2, you are getting the same features as you did for the PS2 out of the box and then some (i.e. Network adapter), and the PS2 was much more successful than the XBox.[/QUOTE]

But the PS2 was more functional than the PS1. It had USB ports, an expansion bay, a firewire port, and it could play DVDs. We're comaparing Xbox to Xbox 360 here.

Oh, and there's an enter key. Use it.
 
[quote name='CheapyD']Very interesting...keep in mind that $375 cost number is only an analyst's prediction (from over 2 months ago).
If it is true, I would imagine Microsoft does better on the $400 version.[/QUOTE]
Yeah, so you have to take that figure with a grain of salt, but it does look like they lose a lot less money on the $400 system. It explains why they're only making a small number of them so far, aside from early adopters being more likely to spend more. But down the road, with the eventual cost reductions and the hard drive costing the same as it does today, the core system will be a lot cheper to make.

I'm also curious whether you can use your own hard drive on the system, officially or not. They've already said that any storage device can be used for music and movies, including the PSP and iPod.
 
[quote name='evanft']If the 2 cars are the same price, then buying the Accord w/o all the extra features would be a financially stupid idea.

[/quote]

Features aren't the only difference between cars

[quote name='evanft']

You also have to realize that there's also a time difference here. With game consoles, what you got for $300 five years ago is gonna be a lot less power-wise than what you get now for $300. Now, if that was true of a Accord, then you'd have a pretty good argument. But, I doubt the Accord made today are multiple times more powerful than the ones made five years ago.

[/quote]

If you actually would have read my comment you would notice that I'm not talking about the difference between specs then and now. The Xbox was made with year old parts at the time. The 360 is being made with cutting edge parts, not year old parts. The time between when the Xbox and the 360 are released is immaterial.

[quote name='evanft']
You can't save out of the box, so your point is null and void.
[/quote]
You are right. But you claimed the Xbox could do those things out of the box, and I was merely rebuking that.
[quote name='evanft']
The transition from cartridge-based to CD-based media was a much greater and much more necessary one than the transition from the Xbox to the Xbox 360.
[/quote]

I never argued that it wasn't, what I said was that tradeoffs are made to keep the cost of systems down. The original PS1 could have included a hard drive to store save games on it (thus keeping a "feature"), but that would have been more expensive.

[quote name='evanft']
But the PS2 was more functional than the PS1. It had USB ports, an expansion bay, a firewire port, and it could play DVDs. We're comaparing Xbox to Xbox 360 here.
[/quote]
Hmmm...the Xbox 360 allows for streaming of media from a Windows machine also on your network, has USB ports, can save to things such as the PSP, memory sticks, etc....all of these seem to be extra features (based on what you are describing as extra features the PS2 had over the PS1).
[quote name='evanft']
Oh, and there's an enter key. Use it.
[/quote]
You probably have eyes, please read my post next time, instead of repeating your thoughts.
 
Okay, beyond the whole this timeframe/features vs that timeframe/features discussion, there is a psychological point to all of this that is sort of being missed. If everyone had a "you get what you pay for" mentatilty, people would be willing to pay a lot for "THE" most powerful console every made (supercomputer fast with EVERY feature known to mankind included). However, this is NOT the case. People do have a limit on what they can afford/justify to pay for something that is ultimately a toy (entertainment device). No matter what anyone says, history has proven this to be true.

Since the days of the Atari 2600,
To borrow from Dafoomie, just look at the list of consoles that launched above $300...
NeoGeo launched in 1990 for $699.99
3DO Interactive Multiplayer launched in 1993 for $699.95
SEGA Saturn launched in 1995 for $399.99

They were top of the line for their time, yet, were unable to succeed and prosper (at least in the US market). As I mentioned before, the Atari 2600 launching at $249 in 1977 compared to the XBOX launching in 2001 at $300 was only a 20% price increase over 24 YEARS. Comparing the increase from XBOX to XBOX 360 (for comparable functionality) is a $100 price increase (33%) in only 4 YEARS. The $400 package may be a good deal, but, it does break the previous (historically proven to date) $300 price point. This is the VERY reason (imho) M$ created a $300 version of the XBOX 360 (Core).

People can only justify spending "so" much on something that basically does what the last one did, just prettier. Don't get me wrong, gaming is great and generates a lot of money...i.e. people love their games. While the hardcore gamers may be willing to accept this price point, it's the "Wal-Mart crowd" that makes up the MAJORITY of gamers. They are the ones that generate MUCH more revenue in the industry than the hardcore gamers (which a few years ago for PC games, hardcore gamers only made up 12% of the entire PC gaming market).

People DO want their games, even to the point they will buy a new sports title squeezed out by EA each year with little true innovation or changes. But, a $50 game a year is not the same as a $400+ investment JUST to get up and running to play those games (which are rumored to approach the old cartridge release prices of $60). All in all, it boils down to the point of whether or not the mass market audience is going to be willing to accept the product at a certain price (if a company is going to make money, since sales only to the hardcore is not going to do it...as seen by the consoles previously released over the $300 price point).

Also, try going back thru an old Montgomery Wards/Sears/etc. catalogue and you will find something interesting. I have one from around Christmas 1975 which shows MANY household items like blenders/toasters/etc. that are the SAME price as today (if not more expensive). So, just because inflation will cause some things to increase in price, that does NOT mean everything should get more expensive. The fact that truely "useful" items like this can hold their price in spite of inflation/etc. just sort of shows part of the very reason less than useful console ("toys"/entertainment devices) have held their same basic value over the past 24 years. Even thou the household item vs console comparison is not 100% even, I think you can get the point of where I'm going. :}~~~
 
[quote name='zzl365']Features aren't the only difference between cars[/QUOTE]

Well no duh. It's still a stupid idea.

[quote name='zzl365']If you actually would have read my comment you would notice that I'm not talking about the difference between specs then and now. The Xbox was made with year old parts at the time. The 360 is being made with cutting edge parts, not year old parts. The time between when the Xbox and the 360 are released is immaterial.[/QUOTE]

Moore's law has started to fail, homie. The time it takes for something to go from super-high end to cheap has greatly decreased. The Xbox was actually WAY ahead the competition, though, in terms of technology.

Also, the GPU in the Xbox was very ahead of it's time. It can handle some of the new effects being thrown around ing ames like Riddick, Chaos Theory, and Doom 3.

[quote name='zzl365']You are right. But you claimed the Xbox could do those things out of the box, and I was merely rebuking that.[/QUOTE]

And you failed.

[quote name='zzl365']I never argued that it wasn't, what I said was that tradeoffs are made to keep the cost of systems down. The original PS1 could have included a hard drive to store save games on it (thus keeping a "feature"), but that would have been more expensive.[/QUOTE]

Again, the difference between going from a cartridge-based to a CD-based medium for game was much greater than the difference between the specs of the Xbox and 360.

Pros of going to CD-based media:
-MUCH Cheaper to manufacture, which means cheaper games
-Easier to store
-No battery running out, deleting your save game
-Doesn't wear out if handled properly
-Over 10x the storage capactity of the biggest n64 cart

Cons:
-Load times
-No save on game disc
-Have to buy memory cards

As you can see, the pros are SO great that the few tradeoffs seem miniscule. With the core 360, however, the biggest difference is the prettier graphics. That's it. That's 90% of the difference between it and the Xbox.

[quote name='zzl365']Hmmm...the Xbox 360 allows for streaming of media from a Windows machine also on your network, has USB ports, can save to things such as the PSP, memory sticks, etc....all of these seem to be extra features (based on what you are describing as extra features the PS2 had over the PS1).[/QUOTE]

Wait, so the 360 can magically stream music over a LAN without a HDD and have enough memory/CPU cycles left to play games? Or is this just something you can do while not playing a game?

The USB ports are more or less useless without some sort of data storage device. They can only really be used for hooking up controllers or the PSP. You can't use a camera because you won't have anything to store your pictures.

And how the hell is it supposed to be able to save to memory sticks?? There's no slot for them! So that mean you're gonna have to buy something else to get them to work, right?

[quote name='zzl365']You probably have eyes, please read my post next time, instead of repeating your thoughts.[/QUOTE]

:joystick:
 
[quote name='STATIC3D']Okay, beyond the whole this timeframe/features vs that timeframe/features discussion, there is a psychological point to all of this that is sort of being missed. If everyone had a "you get what you pay for" mentatilty, people would be willing to pay a lot for "THE" most powerful console every made (supercomputer fast with EVERY feature known to mankind included). However, this is NOT the case. People do have a limit on what they can afford/justify to pay for something that is ultimately a toy (entertainment device). No matter what anyone says, history has proven this to be true.

Since the days of the Atari 2600,
To borrow from Dafoomie, just look at the list of consoles that launched above $300...
NeoGeo launched in 1990 for $699.99
3DO Interactive Multiplayer launched in 1993 for $699.95
SEGA Saturn launched in 1995 for $399.99

They were top of the line for their time, yet, were unable to succeed and prosper (at least in the US market). As I mentioned before, the Atari 2600 launching at $249 in 1977 compared to the XBOX launching in 2001 at $300 was only a 20% price increase over 24 YEARS. Comparing the increase from XBOX to XBOX 360 (for comparable functionality) is a $100 price increase (33%) in only 4 YEARS. The $400 package may be a good deal, but, it does break the previous (historically proven to date) $300 price point. This is the VERY reason (imho) M$ created a $300 version of the XBOX 360 (Core).

People can only justify spending "so" much on something that basically does what the last one did, just prettier. Don't get me wrong, gaming is great and generates a lot of money...i.e. people love their games. While the hardcore gamers may be willing to accept this price point, it's the "Wal-Mart crowd" that makes up the MAJORITY of gamers. They are the ones that generate MUCH more revenue in the industry than the hardcore gamers (which a few years ago for PC games, hardcore gamers only made up 12% of the entire PC gaming market).

People DO want their games, even to the point they will buy a new sports title squeezed out by EA each year with little true innovation or changes. But, a $50 game a year is not the same as a $400+ investment JUST to get up and running to play those games (which are rumored to approach the old cartridge release prices of $60). All in all, it boils down to the point of whether or not the mass market audience is going to be willing to accept the product at a certain price (if a company is going to make money, since sales only to the hardcore is not going to do it...as seen by the consoles previously released over the $300 price point).

Also, try going back thru an old Montgomery Wards/Sears/etc. catalogue and you will find something interesting. I have one from around Christmas 1975 which shows MANY household items like blenders/toasters/etc. that are the SAME price as today (if not more expensive). So, just because inflation will cause some things to increase in price, that does NOT mean everything should get more expensive. The fact that truely "useful" items like this can hold their price in spite of inflation/etc. just sort of shows part of the very reason less than useful console ("toys"/entertainment devices) have held their same basic value over the past 24 years. Even thou the household item vs console comparison is not 100% even, I think you can get the point of where I'm going. :}~~~[/QUOTE]
I don't think the $400 price point will be a major issue for 360 specifically, since PS3 will probably launch at the same price. I'm not especially pleased that prices are up, but they're up for everybody.

Blenders, toasters, and appliances have gotten cheaper over the years for several reasons. A toaster is a toaster, just about anyone can make one, theres no R&D costs. In 1975, that toaster was probably made in America with lots of metal. Now, they're made in China, in big automated factories, with lots of plastic, and cheap electronics. A toaster today doesn't work better, and in a lot of cases, they either work worse or don't last as long. But they're cheaper by an order of magnitude.

A console today is different from a console in 1975... In 1975, a console could only play Pong and maybe another game or two. Consoles have high R&D costs. Also, consoles are using a higher level of technology in comparison to today's computers and electronics, than they were before. And if you factor in inflation, the $400 price point isn't too far off the mark from the NES, Genesis, and PS1.

And finally, the price isn't high because MS and Sony are greedy. They're selling these at a substantial loss. The fierce competition in the market is driving these two companies to push their consoles to the limit, and in doing so, raising the price.

Consoles are more mainstream than ever nowadays, and the newest consoles will have to compete against the cheaper previous generation, as they always have. Theres a reason why everyone didn't run out and buy a $50 Dreamcast, and theres a reason why EA can shamelessly sell a roster update every year for $50. People want the latest and the greatest. Some people will buy it immediately, some people will wait for prices to come down, and some will go with the previous generation, this has been the way its always been. When I was growing up, I got an Atari when NES was new, an NES when the Genesis was new, and a Genesis when the Playstation was new, though at that point I was old enough to buy myself a Saturn, but not until after their prices came down.
 
[quote name='evanft']Wait, so the 360 can magically stream music over a LAN without a HDD and have enough memory/CPU cycles left to play games? Or is this just something you can do while not playing a game?

The USB ports are more or less useless without some sort of data storage device. They can only really be used for hooking up controllers or the PSP. You can't use a camera because you won't have anything to store your pictures.

And how the hell is it supposed to be able to save to memory sticks?? There's no slot for them! So that mean you're gonna have to buy something else to get them to work, right?[/QUOTE]
You can use data storage devices on the 360 other than memory cards. What do you think the PSP is storing things on? A storage device! And how is the PSP hooked up to the 360? The USB port. You can use USB memory sticks with the USB port.

Also, you don't have to rip music to the hard drive in order to use them in game. They can be read from things like PSP's, iPods, USB memory sticks, and possibly from your computer on your LAN, I don't know the specifics on streaming from your computer, however.
 
[quote name='evanft']
Moore's law has started to fail, homie. The time it takes for something to go from super-high end to cheap has greatly decreased. The Xbox was actually WAY ahead the competition, though, in terms of technology.

Also, the GPU in the Xbox was very ahead of it's time. It can handle some of the new effects being thrown around ing ames like Riddick, Chaos Theory, and Doom 3.
[/quote]

No, Moore's law has not started to fail. I'm guessing you are thinking that it is cpu speed doubling every 18 months. It is actually number of transistors on an integrated circuit, and as you may or may not know 65 nm chips will be available by the end of the year (vs the 130 and 90 nm chips available now). Moore's law will probably fail soon though, so I see your point.

And yes, the graphics card (which is more important) was top of the line, but the CPU can effectively bottle-neck said card.
[quote name='evanft']
And you failed.
[/quote]
How exactly did I fail? You claimed that the Xbox could play online/download content out of the box.... it couldn't. End of discussion, how is that failure?

[quote name='evanft']
Again, the difference between going from a cartridge-based to a CD-based medium for game was much greater than the difference between the specs of the Xbox and 360.

Pros of going to CD-based media:
-MUCH Cheaper to manufacture, which means cheaper games
-Easier to store
-No battery running out, deleting your save game
-Doesn't wear out if handled properly
-Over 10x the storage capactity of the biggest n64 cart

Cons:
-Load times
-No save on game disc
-Have to buy memory cards

As you can see, the pros are SO great that the few tradeoffs seem miniscule. With the core 360, however, the biggest difference is the prettier graphics. That's it. That's 90% of the difference between it and the Xbox.
[/quote]

You're right and here are the pros and cons of the hard drive:

Pros-
People don't have to buy a memory card
Better load time

Cons-
They cost money which means people have to pay more for the console

I mean you can swing it all kinds of ways, that people can't play online without a hard drive, etc...but really it all comes down to people need to buy a memory card. I would love the 360 core to come with the HDD, but apparantly it wasn't possible this go around.
[quote name='evanft']
Wait, so the 360 can magically stream music over a LAN without a HDD and have enough memory/CPU cycles left to play games? Or is this just something you can do while not playing a game?
[/quote]
Not sure, I was talking more about video and music for an entertainment center, not necessarilly custom soundtracks.
[quote name='evanft']
The USB ports are more or less useless without some sort of data storage device. They can only really be used for hooking up controllers or the PSP. You can't use a camera because you won't have anything to store your pictures.
[/quote]

Ever hear of Keydrives/Pendrives/USBdrives/whatever you want to call them? They plug into a USB port. Look, I don't think the USB ports will be all that useful, but you claimed them as "added features from the PS1 to the PS2," I honestly only used my USB port to play Karaoke Revolution on the PS2.

[quote name='evanft']
And how the hell is it supposed to be able to save to memory sticks?? There's no slot for them! So that mean you're gonna have to buy something else to get them to work, right?
[/quote]
See above
[quote name='evanft']
:joystick:[/QUOTE]

Hey, I didn't want to turn this into a flame war, I was just trying to discuss why I thought the system was more expensive than the original Xbox, but you added flamebait comments into your posts, and I bit. Sorry.
 
dafoomie

As I said, the comparision was not "even". I was just trying to make a point that "products" are seen pretty much the same no matter how "technical" or not they may be. A blender is a blender, a toaster is a toaster, a game machine is a game machine.

To use a car analogy like zzl365, say you purchase a vehicle and get certain features with it. Then, 4 years later, you go to purchase the same brand/model. Of course there is going to be new and more advanced features in the car, and thus possibly a higher price. But, if there is/are a feature(s) missing that were in the one you purchased 4 years ago (that you find necessary or that you don't want to give up for the new price point) you are more likely to look around and see if you can find another car.

I understand the main stream (mass market audience) is what is driving games nowadays. But, there is one factor that needs to be looked into now as compared to when the current generation of consoles were released. The economy now is NO WHERE NEAR where it was when the XBOX, PS2 and CG were released. The tech industries, while starting to decline due to the dot-bomb era, were still going "okay". Many people were able to adopt the new console tech because they had the disposable income. And, buying a game now and then is cheaper than an initial start up cost to get into a new console (especially when those prices are climbing).

This wouldn't be as big of a deal accept for the fact that, even in spite of reports saying the economy is doing great, we've had one of the (if not THE) largest home foreclosure rate in YEARS. This does not happen with the economy is good. Also, there are no current industries with the same level of pay/employment/etc. like their was with the tech industries during the time of the PS2, XBOX, CG launches. Not to mention the number of game developers/publishers/etc. that have gone out of business. Four (of the bigger ones) have gone out of business in my home town alone within the past year or so. Now, there are only a handful of larger (more well known) ones still around. The rest are smaller "programmers/pixel pushers" for hire types of studios.

I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom. I just think M$ has over estimated by a bit what people are going to be willing to pay to enter the next generation of consoles. Again, yes, the $400 package is a decent deal for what you get. But, the $300 Core version just doesn't measure up when compared to what they have promoted (pimped) the XBOX 360 to be, and, what functionality the previous version had at the same entry level price point.

BTW: Anyone interested in talking to J Allard and asking him some questions should head to this link for info on a chat where he will be asking questions and discussing issues with the XBXO 360...

http://www.majornelson.com/2005/08/20/chat-with-j-allard/

One can hope it won't be a dog and pony spin type show where nothing is seriously addressed...but I'm not holding my breath. :}~~~
 
[quote name='STATIC3D']

This wouldn't be as big of a deal accept for the fact that, even in spite of reports saying the economy is doing great, we've had one of the (if not THE) largest home foreclosure rate in YEARS. This does not happen with the economy is good. Also, there are no current industries with the same level of pay/employment/etc. like their was with the tech industries during the time of the PS2, XBOX, CG launches. Not to mention the number of game developers/publishers/etc. that have gone out of business. Four (of the bigger ones) have gone out of business in my home town alone within the past year or so. Now, there are only a handful of larger (more well known) ones still around. The rest are smaller "programmers/pixel pushers" for hire types of studios.

I'm not trying to be all doom and gloom. I just think M$ has over estimated by a bit what people are going to be willing to pay to enter the next generation of consoles. Again, yes, the $400 package is a decent deal for what you get. But, the $300 Core version just doesn't measure up when compared to what they have promoted (pimped) the XBOX 360 to be, and, what functionality the previous version had at the same entry level price point.
[/QUOTE]

Yeah, I think you do make some good points, the economy isn't great for the average person...but on the other hand, the average gamer's age has probably increased and seeing as the average gamer is fairly young, that may actually allow for a larger amount of money to spend. I know when the PS1/N64 were released I didn't have a part time job (I was too young), and had to ask for these things for christmas/my birthday. When the Xbox was released I was a poor college student working part time, and I had to use a month's disposable income to buy an Xbox/GCN/PS2/etc (also I had to eat a lot of hamburger helper/mac and cheese for awhile after buying them). Now even though I have bills to pay, I also have a much larger income. I know that this does not hold true for all cases, but I do think that MS knows that the average gamer's age increasing means that more money may be spent. I do believe that every year there is a larager and larger percentage of adults playing video games, which means that companies can now price these not as toys, but as electronics.

Now in my opinion, it could go either way. If it doesn't go well, MS will probably eat more money on each system sold to try and penetrate as many homes as possible. If it does go well (and I have a bit more faith in this) MS can position themselves in such a way that they can have big releases and a price cut in time to make choosing a PS3 very difficult for gamers who are deciding between the two.

Who knows if MS will do well with this strategy, but I imagine that 360's will be hard to find this winter.
 
Will wait for a price drop. If history has shown us anything, it won't take long...especially if the PS3 doesn't take long to show up. I'm still annoyed the XBox is already on the way out, there's still stuff they can do with that system that would not seem outdated or stale. I understand their want/need to be first to market, but I doubt it's going to help them much here, especially with this pricing announcement.

Disappointing. I'll take a 360 over a PS3...at least based on what I've seen so far...but paying 450/60 bucks just to get the "real version" of a system and a game to play on it is way too much.

What's really annoying is the only thing I care about in the more expensive bundle is the hard drive. I don't plan on or care about getting an HDTV anytime soon, I don't need or crave a wireless controller. Don't have a Media Center PC. Already have XBox Live.

"Optional" hard drive is a mistake. It should be everyone or no one. So now what...the people who don't buy the 400 dollar version won't be able to get new backwards compatibility drivers to store on their hard drive so they can play their old games? Shrewd.

Sorry to say, but aside from the obvious technological leap forward in the "guts" of the system, this almost seems like a step back from the original XBox, which was innovative and took a few risks. The 360 is just doing what is expected of it (and maybe not even that if you count the half-assed backwards compatibility) and dividing their consumers into two groups.

They've lost me for launch day. Depending on what Sony does, maybe I'll jump on a 360 6-12 months after launch.
 
Will wait for a price drop. If history has shown us anything, it won't take long...especially if the PS3 doesn't take long to show up. I'm still annoyed the XBox is already on the way out, there's still stuff they can do with that system that would not seem outdated or stale. I understand their want/need to be first to market, but I doubt it's going to help them much here, especially with this pricing announcement.

Disappointing. I'll take a 360 over a PS3...at least based on what I've seen so far...but paying 450/60 bucks just to get the "real version" of a system and a game to play on it is way too much.

What's really annoying is the only thing I care about in the more expensive bundle is the hard drive. I don't plan on or care about getting an HDTV anytime soon, I don't need or crave a wireless controller. Don't have a Media Center PC. Already have XBox Live.

"Optional" hard drive is a mistake. It should be everyone or no one. So now what...the people who don't buy the 400 dollar version won't be able to get new backwards compatibility drivers to store on their hard drive so they can play their old games? Shrewd.

Sorry to say, but aside from the obvious technological leap forward in the "guts" of the system, this almost seems like a step back from the original XBox, which was innovative and took a few risks. The 360 is just doing what is expected of it (and maybe not even that if you count the half-assed backwards compatibility) and dividing their consumers into two groups.

They've lost me for launch day. Depending on what Sony does, maybe I'll jump on a 360 6-12 months after launch.
 
I dunno I think the $399 is a great deal. I have a big screen HDTV, so whenever I buy a gaming system I have to shell out usually $30 to $40 for the HD cables, plus I don't like sitting close to my tv so I need to shell out another $30 to $40 for a decent wireless controller or two. so paying an extra $100 to get those items which I would have had to buy anyways plus a harddrive is great.


I don't know if I'll buy one at launch or not depends how my cashflow is that week, but I don't think the price is too high. If i have the money around I'll get it.
 
[quote name='Survivor Charlie']I will never spend over $300 for a game machine. I'm sorry Microsoft, but no system has ever been sucsessful that cost over $300.[/QUOTE]

Well I guess you will never get another gaming machine then......its simple....these things are expensive to develop and basically are gonna keep costing more (inflation) so how does one figure the console price should never go up?
 
[quote name='KaneRobot']

Disappointing. I'll take a 360 over a PS3...at least based on what I've seen so far...but paying 450/60 bucks just to get the "real version" of a system and a game to play on it is way too much.

What's really annoying is the only thing I care about in the more expensive bundle is the hard drive. I don't plan on or care about getting an HDTV anytime soon, I don't need or crave a wireless controller. Don't have a Media Center PC. Already have XBox Live.

"Optional" hard drive is a mistake. It should be everyone or no one. So now what...the people who don't buy the 400 dollar version won't be able to get new backwards compatibility drivers to store on their hard drive so they can play their old games? Shrewd. [/QUOTE]


This sums up my position perfectly. I have no need or desire for a wireless controller, I won't be buying an HDTV anytime in the foreseeable future, and i am nervous over the fact that developers cannot resonably expect all Xbox 360s to have a harddrive.
 
Could someone post a transcript of the chat please? I got in, then the chat crapped out on me... then I get a buncha errors when I try to log back in. Thanks!
 
[quote name='lowgear26']Well I guess you will never get another gaming machine then......its simple....these things are expensive to develop and basically are gonna keep costing more (inflation) so how does one figure the console price should never go up?[/QUOTE]


That's not true, have you ever heard of price drops? Also, I think the Nintendo Revolution will be around the $200-$249 price point.
 
[quote name='STATIC3D']For anyone interested, the transcript from the chat this afternoon with J Allard reguarding the XBOX 360 is here...

http://www.majornelson.com/2005/08/21/j-allard-chat-transcript/

You make the call as to whether issues were really addressed or it was P.R. spin...[/QUOTE]
Some important tidbits...

You will be able to read things from USB memory devices.
You won't be able to write things to USB memory devices.
You will be able to use a standard wifi adapter and not just their $99 one.

Allard made a couple semi-good points, he defends the choice of the DVD format, (and the hard drive not being standard) by saying that the 12x DVD drive in the Xbox will read things faster than before, and faster than Blu-Ray. He doesn't say Blu-Ray specifically in that statement, but Allard alludes to it.

A better point was that the PS2 launched in Japan for $368, with no network adapter, no hard drive, no memory card, no wireless, no voice, no remote, etc.

He also says in his explanation of why they went with $300 and $400 price points, that they can change the bundle and have a lower price for the version with a hard drive (by removing things like the wireless controller, etc). This could be a possible way for a quick pseudo price drop.
 
[quote name='dafoomie']Some important tidbits...

You will be able to read things from USB memory devices.
You won't be able to write things to USB memory devices.
You will be able to use a standard wifi adapter and not just their $99 one.

Allard made a couple semi-good points, he defends the choice of the DVD format, (and the hard drive not being standard) by saying that the 12x DVD drive in the Xbox will read things faster than before, and faster than Blu-Ray. He doesn't say Blu-Ray specifically in that statement, but Allard alludes to it.

A better point was that the PS2 launched in Japan for $368, with no network adapter, no hard drive, no memory card, no wireless, no voice, no remote, etc.

He also says in his explanation of why they went with $300 and $400 price points, that they can change the bundle and have a lower price for the version with a hard drive (by removing things like the wireless controller, etc). This could be a possible way for a quick pseudo price drop.[/QUOTE]

Yeah, though that's in japan where things are more expensive and it was 5 years ago (I think). I wish he would've compared it to the first xbox... it launched in america for 300 WITH a hard drive, network adapter. If he wants to start charging from there... go ahead and charge 50 bucks for a remote and headset and we're at 350. So I don't really see the whole point of that specific argument. I know people have been talking about how the systems are technologically and stuff and my statements have nothing to do with that... just his(Allard) logic in that statement.

once again, I don't have a problem with the 400 price tag, haha
 
http://www.xbox.com/en-US/xbox360/xbox360accessories.htm

Xbox 360 Wireless Controller
Remove the clutter with a 30-foot wireless range and the same precision as a wired controller.
Suggested retail price: $49.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 Play and Charge Kit
Ensure endless Xbox 360 Wireless Controller gaming, even when your batteries run low.
Suggested retail price: $19.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 Memory Unit
Take your saved games and Xbox Live® settings wherever you go with 64MB of storage.
Suggested retail price: $39.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 Hard Drive (20GB)
Save games, rip CDs, and download new Xbox Live content on the detachable 20GB drive.
Suggested retail price: $99.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 Wireless Networking Adapter
Stream music or videos and play on Xbox Live, all without the clutter of wires.
Suggested retail price: $99.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 Universal Media Remote
Sit back with this integrated control center for your console, TV, and DVD/CD playback.
Suggested retail price: $29.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 Controller
Jump right into the action with a nine-foot cable and adjustable vibration feedback.
Suggested retail price: $39.99*

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 Headset
Trash-talk opponents, strategize with teammates, or chat with friends on Xbox Live.
Suggested retail price: $19.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 VGA HD AV Cable
Maximize your game with mind-blowing high-definition brilliance for VGA displays.
Suggested retail price: $39.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 Faceplate
Change your mood and your console whenever you want with distinctive Faceplates.
Suggested retail price: $19.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 S-Video AV Cable (U.S. only)
Boost your game experience with crisp, clean, enhanced, RGB-quality gaming.
Suggested retail price: $29.99

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Xbox 360 Rechargeable Battery Pack
Forget batteries and power your Xbox 360 Wireless Controller with 25 hours of play per charge.
Suggested retail price: $11.99


I hadnt noticed any pricing until this morning so if it's a repo flame on...

Worst part is M$ has the exclusivity on the wireless controllers until 2007...so its $50 or bust and the wired controller's aren't even appealing at $40...I applaud :applause: the inclusion of the VGA cable at a moderate price, face plates are a scam at $20...should've been $9.99, and the bonus pack extra's are easily valued at $200+ so I'll be definitely getting that one making the "CORE" package a serious ripoff...


I also wanted to add for all you CAG's ;) that you can get the system TAX free at GS if your "credit" exceeds the msrp, i.e. I have $467 in credit for mine but $100 of that was my initial cash deposit on it....meaning I need $33 more in cred to get the console tax free ;)...this was validated by several GS employee's in NYC...
 
Irwin_R_Schyster.jpg


I hate tax cheats!
 
[quote name='mykevermin']
Irwin_R_Schyster.jpg


I hate tax cheats![/QUOTE]
Well its not cheating lol, GS/EB doesn't charge you tax on games purchased with store credit, I just found it also apllied to consoles at GS :)...in my case im saving nearly $35 on the console & $6 per game, it defenitely add's up...I think the hardest part will be having that much crap to trade in :)
 
tongue in cheeck, man...tongue in cheek.

If you are paying with credit, that came from trade ins on good you already purchased with cash/credit (and thus taxed). I just wanted to use a picture of IRS.
 
[quote name='Epic Wolf']atleast you were polite this time...like I said originally "if this is a REPO flame on"..but I think the tax off tip makes up for it also changed the title just for ya ;)[/QUOTE]

Polite this time? If you are referring to the nintendogs thread the other day where you told some newbie that "this has been posted elsewhere", you were in every way wrong in that thread. You posted a link for the game at Amazon, he posted a link for the game on sale at Compusa B&M. I don't see how Amazon relates to Compusa.
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']Polite this time? If you are referring to the nintendogs thread the other day where you told some newbie that "this has been posted elsewhere", you were in every way wrong in that thread. You posted a link for the game at Amazon, he posted a link for the game on sale at Compusa B&M. I don't see how Amazon relates to Compusa.[/QUOTE]
Keep in mind his title never specified a vendor...all he did was provide a link to game at Compusa which I followed up with a cheaper offer at Amazon which in actuality had been posted elsewhere...so excuse me if I didnt give the link..but you seriously need to lighten up...
 
[quote name='Epic Wolf']Keep in mind his title never specified a vendor...all he did was provide a link to game at Compusa which I followed up with a cheaper offer at Amazon which in actuality had been posted elsewhere...so excuse me if I didnt give the link..but you seriously need to lighten up...[/QUOTE]

And? How hard is it to tell the OP to edit his original post instead of providing a link to a completely different site that has nothing to do with what the OP posted? The compusa deal had not been posted before.
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']And? How hard is it to tell the OP to edit his original post instead of providing a link to a completely different site that has nothing to do with what the OP posted? The compusa deal had not been posted before.[/QUOTE]
his Op was Nintendogs for 25!..with a link that led to Compusa...I thought he was excited about the fucking game not the vendor..so bite me...I merely offered an alternative vendor to the exact same game at a much better price...
 
[quote name='Epic Wolf']his Op was Nintendogs for 25!..with a link that led to Compusa...I thought he was excited about the fucking game not the vendor..so bite me...I merely offered an alternative vendor to the exact same game at a much better price...[/QUOTE]

No. You told the newbie it was a repost when in fact it wasn't. If you went around offering an "alternative vendor to the exact same game at a much better price" then you would have to do it for many of the posts on this board.
 
[quote name='mtxbass1']No. You told the newbie it was a repost when in fact it wasn't. If you went around offering an "alternative vendor to the exact same game at a much better price" then you would have to do it for many of the posts on this board.[/QUOTE]
What the fuck is your problem... let it go already, you obviously misconstrued my post on that, had my follow up reply not been deleted you would have read me articulate that post better...I'm sure if I could/did run around topping deal's people would actually appreciate it, I'm saving them money, if it's a problem then that's your prerogative...you on the other hand seem to be doing a great job of running around playing mod...:roll: , I'm asking you nicely drop it already & I will too...
 
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