Xbox One on the way. DRM removed, more details to come.

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[quote name='Erad30']Again it's completely different. "Art" as you are describing it cost virtually nothing to make and it's value is completely in the eyes of a select group of people who assign a pretty arbitrary value to it. You don't sell art to the public at large. Most artists also die broke and unappreciated/unrecognized. If they get any recognition at all it's long after they are dead and again decided rather arbitrarily by a select group of people. You want that for developers? Art in this style is almost like the lotto.[/QUOTE]

It cost virtually nothing to make? I'm sure the artist would strongly disagree with that.
 
In terms of pure money? Yeah it's virtually nothing. Gaming is a business that needs profits. Paintings that sell are almost pure profit. But again many don't and even those that do aren't usually enough for artists to live on the have to usually make money through other means or face homelessness/starvation. Developing is a beyond full-time job, you want developers to get a second or even third job to support this?
 
You have to define what type of art you're talking about before you say it costs "virtually nothing" to make.
 
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[quote name='Erad30']In terms of pure money? Yeah it's virtually nothing.[/QUOTE]

I'm not going to argue if a painting costs anything to make or not. Nearly everyone would say the weeks or months it takes to make it is considered "money" as are the typically very expensive paints they're using. At this point you're just arguing for the hell of it.

If a game only cost $100 to make, does that mean that the game should be treated differently?
 
Actually yes. No one's livelihood is at risk on a 100 dollar game. Blaster Man already defined the parameters of "art" with his painting example.
 
[quote name='Erad30']Actually yes. No one's livelihood is at risk on a 100 dollar game. Blaster Man already defined the parameters of "art" with his painting example.[/QUOTE]
You have no clue if their livelihood is at risk. I found this through google pretty easily for instance. This guy quit his job that he hated and already had a computer at home so he paid Apple the roughly $100 fee to develop apps for iTunes for a year.
http://nathanbarry.com/2012-year-quitting-job/
 
And he HAS OTHER WAYS OF MAKING MONEY. The first thing he lists is consulting which he makes more money off than developing apps. He also mentions writing ebooks that sold really well. Yeah he may have quit some job but the apps aren't where he makes most of his money according to that very article. If he was strictly doing apps he'd be making just a tad over minimum wage.
 
lol..

There are a lot of indy developers who quit their jobs and dedicate years into developing games. It IS their livelihood. I am not sure how that can be argued.

Obviously this isn't the case for every indy developer, but there are tons out there.
 
[quote name='Erad30']Sometimes they are. Games are starting to regularly have hollywood talent and budgets matching those of at least mid-range movies. Again, I already said huge brands can make money on merchandising like EA but for most games this isn't an option they just don't have that kind of recognition or fan devotion.[/QUOTE]

Atlus seems to be doing just fine releasing smaller games without big budgets. If a company can't make a profit making big budget games, then they should be making something else. Kingdoms of Amalur probably would have been profitable enough if the company hadn't been blowing millions on their MMO.
 
Yeah and most of them release games digitally, used sales isn't a part of their equation. Neither is distribution costs, manufacturing costs, etc. And they don't have to be successes on the level that big budget titles do. Just look at Tomb Raider. It had to sell COD numbers to make money it didn't. We might not ever see another one. Same thing with Dead Space 3. I'm not saying used games is to blame here, but it would be another revenue stream that might keep series going. Maybe Valkyria Chronicles would've seen the third entry get released over here if used sales were good enough. Maybe a lot of beloved games that didn't sell well enough would still be around if used sales kicked in some money. I'm not saying it's definite but it might've helped.
 
[quote name='spatenfloot']Atlus seems to be doing just fine releasing smaller games without big budgets. If a company can't make a profit making big budget games, then they should be making something else. Kingdoms of Amalur probably would have been profitable enough if the company hadn't been blowing millions on their MMO.[/QUOTE]

You are completely right, the AAA model is completely broken and used/pirated games are an easy scapegoat. But that's not a reason used games sold by a company as a major part of their business shouldn't share some of the profit, especially when it's in their own self-interest so used games being gone doesn't utterly destroy them.
 
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[quote name='Blaster man']same, I like games but that doesn't mean I have to play them on consoles that I view as actively hostile towards me as a consumer. Despite my (somewhat) distaste for the Wii U, I would play just that if that's the only one that wasn't doing this.[/QUOTE]

For me, I just want to see the industry moving forward in a positive way. I'm not against "changing with the times", and maybe even the increased DRM and other new policies will help the industry as a whole. But so far, Microsoft has done a horrible job in getting that point across. If requiring all games to be installed to the hard drive and having PC-like "CD keys" for the games will help developers stay in business and also give gamers bigger and more frequent discounts on new games (ala Steam), then just say that. When I explained all this to my wife, her first question was "Well, what's in it for gamers?" And seriously, that's a great question. So far, we've heard about this restriction and that restriction, with little being said about what will make it a worthwhile sacrifice.

It's the BS'ing and withholding of information that makes people suspicious. If these policies are really for "the greater good", then explain that to us and let us see these changes for what they really are. But giving fluff answers and trying to deflect our attention to the nearest shiny object gives the appearance that "what they really are" are schemes to increase profits for shareholders. I just want them to be upfront and honest about it.

Because meanwhile...this is happening in the PC world (which I have to say, is really piquing my interest). This is innovation.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qpHWJMytx5I
 
[quote name='matrix9280']What could Microsoft possibly say at E3 to make people not hate them? Psych? It was all a trick?[/QUOTE]

EA made us do it!
 
[quote name='brandtron8000']

This is the exact "feature" that MS is trying to sugarcoat as a way to put DRM on every game. This is where the key is tied to your account to check a game's specific license and phone home to check with MS and validate.

[/QUOTE]

BuhWHU? There already IS DRM on every game. And on everything you buy from XBL. It's status quo, except for the occasional online license check.


[quote name='brandtron8000']
There's no need for quotes, the XBone WILL (how often is still in question) have to go online to validate your licenses. So people with spotty and/or no internet connections are freaking out. I get it, you have a great internet connection. #DealWithit
[/QUOTE]

Again, LOLWUT? If their DRM consists of an occasional online license check (which you seem to be agreeing that it will), there will be an exchange of a few hundred kB of data back and forth every few weeks. We're not talking SimCity levels of DRM for a simple license check...
If your internet connection allows you to make needlessly angry posts on a video game forum, I'm pretty sure it can handle an intermittent license check.

Nobody knows anything about what MS is planning at this point. Even MS has come out and said, essentially, "Yo, take a chill pill. The reason we haven't said anything is that WE haven't even sorted it all out, yet."
So take a chill pill. If it ends up being all DOOM AND GLOOM as you predict, then, by all means, freak the 'eff out. Until then, maybe take a chill pill, y'all
 
One podcast I listened to this week mentioned trading games in for digital credit could work really well. Admittedly that sounds intriguing but I doubt that is what they had in mind. I do remember Gamestop's CEO saying he was pretty happy with the new hardware awhile ago, so odds are they have some sort of deal worked out with MS and possibly Sony as well like they get exclusive trade-in rights for the licenses or something. Then they would have even more of a stranglehold because you couldn't buy used copies through any other source.
 
[quote name='Erad30']Sometimes they are. Games are starting to regularly have hollywood talent and budgets matching those of at least mid-range movies. Again, I already said huge brands can make money on merchandising like EA but for most games this isn't an option they just don't have that kind of recognition or fan devotion.[/QUOTE]

How much money goes to Nintendo, Sony, or MS when trying to sell a game on there system? I remember reading how Nintendo was horrible with that and how much control they wanted over what went on there systems.

I think these companies spend way too much money on advertising. I remember the days of print media, that was pretty reliable source of finding out what was good and what was not. Certain companies were able to sell a game just because of there name, publishers have fallen so far away from that. It's become more and more of a business than entertainment, I'm just glad I was able to enjoy games the way they were between 10 and 20 years ago.
 
[quote name='VIDEOGAME IGODI']I don't care if the games coming out are the best ever to hit the industry, I refuse to support this future. A true gamer will vote correctly with their wallet.

:)[/QUOTE]

so you don't think pc gamers are true gamers? seeing we have delt with this stuff for awhile now
 
i think we will hear something from sony and microsoft sooner then later on all these rumors. Sony rumors are now starting to pick up about this drm stuff. No one will care what they have to say at e3 press conf's if they don't answer every single question people are worried about.
 
[quote name='skiizim']How much money goes to Nintendo, Sony, or MS when trying to sell a game on there system? I remember reading how Nintendo was horrible with that and how much control they wanted over what went on there systems.

I think these companies spend way too much money on advertising. I remember the days of print media, that was pretty reliable source of finding out what was good and what was not. Certain companies were able to sell a game just because of there name, publishers have fallen so far away from that. It's become more and more of a business than entertainment, I'm just glad I was able to enjoy games the way they were between 10 and 20 years ago.[/QUOTE]

I think eventually it'll settle. I took awhile but the movie business is like that now. There's room for big budget blockbusters, mid-range movies and independent stuff. Right now in gaming there's pretty much only room for very big or very small projects, it's one of the reasons THQ went under. But it's a much younger industry it'll hopefully just take some time.
 
[quote name='Erad30']That still sounds like lip service so far though, not an actual commitment to anything.[/QUOTE]
https://twitter.com/shahidkamal/status/338970573080231936
https://twitter.com/amboyes/status/339090189207101440
You got to admit, at least they are acknowledging us instead of what Microsoft did a few days ago. It only takes a minute to send a tweet, the worst that could happen is that they still follow MS's path or maybe those tweets are enough to persuade Sony to think differently. I don't mind the used drm as long as it is something more lenient(similar to online pass) than what MS is proposing.
Tons of progress being made in less than 24 hours since the movement began.

https://twitter.com/VirtuaMe/status/338757622167638016
^They locked off commenting on the xbox announcement video on youtube lol. It seems pretty clear MS doesn't even want to hear what we want to say.
 
[quote name='Erad30']I think eventually it'll settle. I took awhile but the movie business is like that now. There's room for big budget blockbusters, mid-range movies and independent stuff. Right now in gaming there's pretty much only room for very big or very small projects, it's one of the reasons THQ went under. But it's a much younger industry it'll hopefully just take some time.[/QUOTE]

That is, at best, an insignificant reason THQ went under. They invested in a worthless project and it came back to bite them.

If video game companies made video games they would stay profitable.

The problem is they want to all be rockstars and dabble in unproven markets.
 
big budget don't always mean amazing product. in my mind movie industry has gone down hill on how many great movies come out. Most movies just care about high budget special effect stuff and not if it's good movie or not.
 
[quote name='htz']https://twitter.com/shahidkamal/status/338970573080231936
https://twitter.com/amboyes/status/339090189207101440
You got to admit, at least they are acknowledging us instead of what Microsoft did a few days ago. It only takes a minute to send a tweet, the worst that could happen is that they still follow MS's path or maybe those tweets are enough to persuade Sony to think differently. I don't mind the used drm as long as it is something more lenient(similar to online pass) than what MS is proposing.
Tons of progress being made in less than 24 hours since the movement began.

https://twitter.com/VirtuaMe/status/338757622167638016
^They locked off commenting on the xbox announcement video on youtube lol. It seems pretty clear MS doesn't even want to hear what we want to say.[/QUOTE]


i agree it's great they are talking back BUT with that said sounds like they are saying what we want to hear. why would any company think user would even what a thing like this on home systems. Sounds like sony is saying well we were thinking you woul want something like this so we are sorry we put it in the system. i think if they did not have drm they would come out with a giant statement and say we don't have it and stick it in ms face. But if we don't get that before e3 i think both systems will have some kind of used game thing.
 
I don't think it's an insignificant one, pretty much every THQ property had undersold. Granted the Udraw tablet was the nail in the coffin because their batshit CEO decided since it was successful on the Wii they should invest tons of money in it for the 360 & PS3 (like almost all their money). If their games had sold well enough it might've kept them afloat.
 
[quote name='Erad30']I don't think it's an insignificant one, pretty much every THQ property had undersold. Granted the Udraw tablet was the nail in the coffin because their batshit CEO decided since it was successful on the Wii they should invest tons of money in it for the 360 & PS3 (like almost all their money). If their games had sold well enough it might've kept them afloat.[/QUOTE]

I'm pretty sure financially sound companies that make good decisions will have zero problems profiting off their (THQ) titles.
 
[quote name='TimboSliceGB']i agree it's great they are talking back BUT with that said sounds like they are saying what we want to hear. why would any company think user would even what a thing like this on home systems. Sounds like sony is saying well we were thinking you woul want something like this so we are sorry we put it in the system. i think if they did not have drm they would come out with a giant statement and say we don't have it and stick it in ms face. But if we don't get that before e3 i think both systems will have some kind of used game thing.[/QUOTE]
It's kind of obvious we will get some form of used game drm but I'm not happy with MS's method of doing it. Something like the online pass is a good compromise between both consumer and publisher. If we paid for a used game, at least allow us to play the single player portion without having to log-in to authenticate. I know we are moving to a digital future but at least do it at a reasonable pace that gives your customer some options.
 
ThQ best seeling game last year was wwe 12 and that sold only over 700 K when that kind of game leads your sales you got problems. Wwe was their best selling games for several years now other then when saints row came out.
 
Again not saying that wasn't what ultimately killed them, but games not hitting their targets was a contributing reason as well. If they had some mega franchise they probably could've handled the blow. Everybody sees what Activision and EA do and they want to be that.
 
[quote name='htz']It's kind of obvious we will get some form of used game drm but I'm not happy with MS's method of doing it. Something like the online pass is a good compromise between both consumer and publisher. If we paid for a used game, at least allow us to play the single player portion without having to log-in to authenticate. I know we are moving to a digital future but at least do it at a reasonable pace that gives your customer some options.[/QUOTE]

the best way i could see it being done is that if you want to install the game on your hardirve after the org code was used you would have to buy a ten doller code. it would require the disc to be in drive while playing also.
 
[quote name='Erad30']Again not saying that wasn't what ultimately killed them, but games not hitting their targets was a contributing reason as well. If they had some mega franchise they probably could've handled the blow. Everybody sees what Activision and EA do and they want to be that.[/QUOTE]

i think home front was THQ last hope and saints row 3 and they i not sell like they were thinking. i loved alot of thq games in late 90's and till mid 00's they had great quality games and seems like once this gen hit the quality games other then saints row and couple others was just not their anymore.
 
maybe now that people are jumping on sony and ms publishers will tell sony an ms lets easy up on the whole drm thing. game companys know that if no one buys next gen systems they don't get money from new games or used games.
 
[quote name='ShockandAww']Yeah Wario tweeted it with Cheapys permission. I'm not sure really what Cheapy thinks about it himself but good of him to let Wario tweet that. That's 58,000 people reached out to.[/QUOTE]
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=59663697&postcount=3762

ikj9PsEpz218U.gif
 
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[quote name='JetEngineJesus']BuhWHU? There already IS DRM on every game. And on everything you buy from XBL. It's status quo, except for the occasional online license check.[/QUOTE]

Oh, so there already is DRM on your disc games that restricts it's use to just one system/account? I always wondered why nobody had ever hacked the 360 software and were able to pirate games and DLC online.


[quote name='JetEngineJesus']there will be an exchange of a few hundred kB of data back and forth every few weeks. We're not talking SimCity levels of DRM for a simple license check...[/QUOTE]

You might wanna change that to once every 24 hours, according to Phil Harrison, but oops they took it backsies, no comment. It could be once every month or 5 minutes at this point, way to clear that up MS. Again, I get it, #DealWithIt.

[quote name='JetEngineJesus']The reason we haven't said anything is that WE haven't even sorted it all out, yet.[/QUOTE]

Which is nobody's fault but MS'. This announcement was a reaction to the February PS4 announcement, nobody forced them to hold this conference. If they weren't ready to respond to questions at this time, why hold a press conference and Q&A about it?
 
[quote name='brandtron8000']Oh, so there already is DRM on your disc games that restricts it's use to just one system/account? I always wondered why nobody had ever hacked the 360 software and were able to pirate games and DLC online.




You might wanna change that to once every 24 hours, according to Phil Harrison, but oops they took it backsies, no comment. It could be once every month or 5 minutes at this point, way to clear that up MS. Again, I get it, #DealWithIt.



Which is nobody's fault but MS'. This announcement was a reaction to the February PS4 announcement, nobody forced them to hold this conference. If they weren't ready to respond to questions at this time, why hold a press conference and Q&A about it?[/QUOTE]


psn fanboys have nothing to troll about your own beloved sony is now under fire about drm rumors
 
[quote name='Erad30']It's different for videogames than any other form of media. For movies you have merchandising, theatrical release, home/digital release and network viewings. There are multiple ways to make money. Games can have some merchandise but unless you are talking nearly universal brands that doesn't really put much extra bank in their pocket. They release a video game, maybe some dlc that they hope sells down the line and that's it. They don't really have multiple avenues of revenue like other forms of media do.[/QUOTE]

Movie ticket: $15
Blu-ray: $20
Video game: $60 (+ day one DLC revenue)

Sure there are more revenue streams, but it takes years to reach that $60 total that games start out at on day 1.

As pointed out though, every other product known to man can be resold. Software companies thinking they are above that is absurd. It's only because a company, GS, figured out a way to monopolize the used market. If used games were relegated to mom and pop stores, used rental stores, pawn shops and small shops like used CD shops we wouldn't be discussing this.

[quote name='matrix9280']What could Microsoft possibly say at E3 to make people not hate them? Psych? It was all a trick?[/QUOTE]

$40 games and frequent sales

Steam has shown people are willing to forgo the secondary market for a price. Unfortunately MS wants their cake (DRM) and to eat it too ($60 games). Something has to give.

MS & Sony could be ushering in the second video game crash with all this bs, conveniently on the thirtieth anniversary of the first crash.
 
[quote name='TimboSliceGB']psn fanboys have nothing to troll about your own beloved sony is now under fire about drm rumors[/QUOTE]

Both companies had rumors that they would support some form of DRM that would block used games. The difference is that the mechanism to support DRM is BUILT-IN to the XBone system and MS openly talked about it, but not the DRM used game blocking aspect of it, and it's a touted feature: NO DISC required!

Sony clearly said they will not require an always on connection to play any games. So if they indeed end up implementing some form of disc DRM, it will be a different system than MS'.
 
I think both companies need to go back to the drawing board. Come back in a year and show us the real next gen systems. We can give them one 'do over.' We can also survive another year with the 360/PS3.
 
[quote name='brandtron8000']Both companies had rumors that they would support some form of DRM that would block used games. The difference is that the mechanism to support DRM is BUILT-IN to the XBone system and MS openly talked about it, but not the DRM used game blocking aspect of it, and it's a touted feature: NO DISC required!

Sony clearly said they will not require an always on connection to play any games. So if they indeed end up implementing some form of disc DRM, it will be a different system than MS'.[/QUOTE]

it's not built it it's software implemented which both ms and sony would use if they do go ahead wiht drm plan.
 
[quote name='Corvin']I think both companies need to go back to the drawing board. Come back in a year and show us the real next gen systems. We can give them one 'do over.' We can also survive another year with the 360/PS3.[/QUOTE]

then you would have to change the dev kits companys are using. im sure seeing systems are only five or so months away they are already under production. but seeing it's mostly software stuff it's possible its changed from now till launch but i think it will stay the same but might change a bit.
 
[quote name='TimboSliceGB']psn fanboys have nothing to troll about your own beloved sony is now under fire about drm rumors[/QUOTE]
http://gematsu.com/2013/05/rumor-so...ight-cancel-plans-following-xbox-one-backlash
^Explains why Sony is not really under fire on drm rumors. It is actually the opposite, they are considering on pulling back. This is what the twitter movement is about. Which is leading people to think we might still have a chance with Sony and maybe even Microsoft.
 
[quote name='TimboSliceGB']it's not built it it's software implemented which both ms and sony would use if they do go ahead wiht drm plan.[/QUOTE]

Yes, there is no DRM hardware chip installed on the motherboard. Every game must be installed to the hard drive. That is a function of the system. Whether that part of the system is modified later to remove any DRM functionalities does not mean it wasn't built into how the system works. Going online to check your license is unavoidable, it's part of the system.
 
[quote name='TimboSliceGB']then you would have to change the dev kits companys are using. im sure seeing systems are only five or so months away they are already under production. but seeing it's mostly software stuff it's possible its changed from now till launch but i think it will stay the same but might change a bit.[/QUOTE]

I was being facetious.
 
[quote name='htz']http://gematsu.com/2013/05/rumor-so...ight-cancel-plans-following-xbox-one-backlash
^Explains why Sony is not really under fire on drm rumors. It is actually the opposite, they are considering on pulling back. This is what the twitter movement is about. Which is leading people to think we might still have a chance with Sony and maybe even Microsoft.[/QUOTE]

well for the gaming world lets hope both pull back :) i think everyone could live with a ten doller fee to play used games which would be pretty much online pass required for eveyr game. I doudt their will be no used game thing but something like that i would not mind.
 
[quote name='tokyostomp']You can always frankenstein a few images together.

I have wombat's glasses and cheapy's smile...
I'm a unwanted love child...[/QUOTE]

Haha thats what i thought about doing.
 
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