Xbox One on the way. DRM removed, more details to come.

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[quote name='brandtron8000']There won't be a fee for used games, because there will be no more used games, technically the disc itself is just a delivery system for the activation. There will be no difference in a new or used disc itself (except it will be missing the activation key). You will never buy a used game, you will buy a disc with the data and buy the activation license.

I also love that some people's defense is that they will simply buy "one or two games a year" and/or "wait for price drops." Do you think you are the customer MS wants? Sure that may be a personal solution financially (this is CAG afterall), but it would be horrible for the gaming industry if every one did the same.[/QUOTE]

It sounds like the disc has a unique key that is associated with that disk. If you take my disk and download it to your ONE then when the authentication check is done my game is deactivated and yours will work.
 
[quote name='kill3r7'] We take for granted how many spouses/significant others/parents have trouble navigating their way through a modern home theater system.
[/quote]

For sure. Mine's pretty easy since I have a Harmony remote (the 360 one) so I can pretty easily show my parents and others who come over how to use it. But my parents, for instance, call every once in a while with some silly issue with their home theater set up that usually involves something on the wrong input or a changed aspect ratio setting etc.

So there are people intrigued by making the home theater experience simpler.

Hell, I was intrigued by how fast it jumped from games to tv to movies to music, being able to just say go to a channel rather than having to hunt through the thousands of channels in the guide to find a channel I rarely watch etc. As well as potentially being able to cut down on the number of boxes in my home theater (which proved false since you need a cable/satellite box still apparently).

People forget that M$ has a ton of data from XBL which probably tells them a whole lot about consumer behavior. Maybe folks really do spend a lot of time streaming media on their Xbox360... I don't know.
Click to expand...

I definitely see a lot of people watching Netflix/Amazon on my friends list--especially those I know have kids (probably a lot of using cartoons on Netflix to babysit). Just makes sense vs. buying a separate Roku box or whatever if you've already got a device hooked up that can do it.


[quote name='DNukem170']To make sure you're not playing bootlegs?
[/QUOTE]

That would be the point. But I'd assume modded consoles would find a way around that check anyway--and you already need a modded console to play burnt discs don't you? In which case this wouldn't really help cut down on piracy as modder will still be modding things.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']It sounds like the disc has a unique key that is associated with that disk. If you take my disk and download it to your ONE then when the authentication check is done my game is deactivated and yours will work.[/QUOTE]

So what, you disconnect your console from the Internet and keep setting the time back 24 hours so it's always the same "day"?
 
I love this part. There's going to be some CAG's in the military and Slick Deals making shittons of money flipping these consoles.



While an internet connection will be required for the console, the company is also experimenting with special exemption codes that could be given to select people in very particular, internet-free situations, like active-duty soldiers serving in war zones, sources tell Polygon.
 
[quote name='brandtron8000']There won't be a fee for used games, because there will be no more used games, technically the disc itself is just a delivery system for the activation. There will be no difference in a new or used disc itself (except it will be missing the activation key). You will never buy a used game, you will buy a disc with the data and buy the activation license.
[/QUOTE]


I don't think that's the case either. Major Nelson put out the statement today that buying used games and being able to resell games was important to them and their consumers and that they'd announce the specifics in the near future.

I think the issues is that games are now mandatory installs, and they have to have some authentication check so that people can't just install the game and pass the disc on to friends to install, or trade in/sell the disc and keep the install.

Thus their has to be some system to tie the activation/license to one machine at a time--i.e. after you sell/trade it your install gets deactivated when that disc is installed on another machine.

Seems like they're just struggling with the specifics of how that will work, and have thus really botched the announcement.

But then again, they pretty much had that solved this generation by requiring the disc to still be in the machine to play an installed game--so I don't know why they'd be wanting to make it so much more complicated. :shrugs: Just have to wait and see.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']I love this part. There's going to be some CAG's in the military and Slick Deals making shittons of money flipping these consoles.



While an internet connection will be required for the console, the company is also experimenting with special exemption codes that could be given to select people in very particular, internet-free situations, like active-duty soldiers serving in war zones, sources tell Polygon.[/QUOTE]

I read that to mean that they'd be able to get exemption codes for each game they bought that they entered along with the CD key--not that they'll get exempt consoles.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']So what, you disconnect your console from the Internet and keep setting the time back 24 hours so it's always the same "day"?[/QUOTE]

I am sure they have thought of a way to prevent that.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']I read that to mean that they'd be able to get exemption codes for each game they bought that they entered along with the CD key--not that they'll get exempt consoles.[/QUOTE]

I read consoles. Imagine you're in a war zone. You're in the barracks. Your wife or g/f sends you a new Xbox game....I'm pretty sure they mean consoles. As in, you buy a console in a certain region, call MS from within that region, they give you a code, it unlocks this ability.

Maybe.
 
The more I hear about the new Xbox One used game system the more I'm disappointed. I'm more an xbox than PS guy, (and more PC than both), But I like buying used games from gamefly and ebay.

Here's the latest speculation from a unnamed British retailer.

[quote name='joystiq&MVC']
A customer walks into a reseller with a previously purchased game disc. This can only be done at retailers that, according to MCV, have "agreed to Microsoft's [terms and conditions] and more importantly integrated Microsoft's cloud-based Azure pre-owned system into its own." The game disc, having been registered in the system, now wipes the license use from the previous owner's account so that the installed game on their Xbox One can no longer be accessed.[/quote]

I understand what Microsoft is doing and why. They're a business and want to make money off third party sales. So they're locking the game to the account (speculation) for the initial purchase. then, if you trade it into Gamestop, Gamestop has to deauthorize the account and MS & the publisher gets a cut of the profits.

My suspicion is that MS will charge retailers for a cut of the used sale. it'll be like, a fee to use their azure service. It may be free, but I would think they would charge a small fee. I wouldn't be surprised if it's 5%. Just enough to get the system in place in principle but so little that major retailers won't care about the cost. Then, in five years for the next gen they may try to jack it up to 15 or 20%. This is also all just speculation.

But as a consumer, I'm worried this is designed to control markets. If I buy a game, and then once I'm done want to give it as a gift to a friend, can I do that? What if I want to resell on ebay. They may even put a public deauthorization tool online, but what if there's a snafu. What if I buy a game on ebay and its still linked to the old console/account. And what about gamefly rentals?

And even if it doesn't eliminate those markets, lets say it just reduces the volume, and the deauthorization costs are passed onto the consumer. That may raise the price of used games, which then allows MS to raise the price of new games. Let's be honest, no one who's smart buys a new games at a flat $60. Either in week 1 you can get a $20 gift certificate or three weeks later it's $50 and then three more weeks it's $35-40. In some ways new games are cheaper now than five years ago.

Ultimately it's MS job to make money and I get that. And I'm not saying what they're doing is wrong. It's their system and if you don't like it you can go somewhere else. But I'm concerned as a consumer where this is going.
 
[quote name='dmaul1114']But then again, they pretty much had that solved this generation by requiring the disc to still be in the machine to play an installed game--so I don't know why they'd be wanting to make it so much more complicated. :shrugs: Just have to wait and see.[/QUOTE]

Yeah they set out to make a machine where swapping disks was not an issue but in doing so they seem to have created a far bigger problem. It was a neat idea to not have to swap disks but the authentications seems like a far bigger issue for gamers.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']What a clusterfuck for them. It doesn't even make fucking sense. If it plays used games then why does it require to be online to authenticate the game?[/QUOTE]

Sure it makes sense. Because this Azure authentication system (or whatever they're calling it.) is how you get used games.

1. Person A buys new. A has the original key. Finishes the game.
2. A sells to gamestop. Gamestop reports the serial or whatever. Person A can no longer play the game.
3. Gamestop sells it for $whatever. Msft and pub get their 10%.
4. Person B buys it from gamestop. They get a new serial to authenticate.

That's it. The difference here (according to polygon) would be that person B doesn't have to "pay a fee" to play the old game. (They simply are paying what gamestop is charging.)

Now,

1. Person Person B is done with it.
2. B sells to gamestop. Gamestop reports the serial or whatever. Person B can no longer play the game.
3. Gamestop sells it for whatever. Msft and pub get their 10%.
4. Person C buys it from gamestop. They get a new serial to authenticate.

That's why you always need authentication.

Rinse. Repeat.
 
Right but wouldn't a one-time authentication pretty much accomplish that? Why do I need to check in at least once a day? If my internet is down or I'm out of town for awhile, does that mean I have to re-register (and possibly even re-install) my game? Maybe even my services? It probably stops at having to re-enter an authorize code to be fair but that's still ridiculous.
 
^ Yeah I think this is as close to the truth as we have right now. My hope is only that the authentication is on disk so that we can still sell on Ebay. Maybe Gamestop will still pay a % for every game they sell and it is tracked using this unique ID.
 
[quote name='confoosious']Sure it makes sense. Because this Azure authentication system (or whatever they're calling it.) is how you get used games.

1. Person A buys new. A has the original key. Finishes the game.
2. A sells to gamestop. Gamestop reports the serial or whatever. Person A can no longer play the game.
3. Gamestop sells it for $whatever. Msft and pub get their 10%.
4. Person B buys it from gamestop. They get a new serial to authenticate.

That's it. The difference here (according to polygon) would be that person B doesn't have to "pay a fee" to play the old game. (They simply are paying what gamestop is charging.)

Now,

1. Person Person B is done with it.
2. B sells to gamestop. Gamestop reports the serial or whatever. Person B can no longer play the game.
3. Gamestop sells it for whatever. Msft and pub get their 10%.
4. Person C buys it from gamestop. They get a new serial to authenticate.

That's why you always need authentication.

Rinse. Repeat.[/QUOTE]


But what if I hate Call of Duty: Ghosts and Cancerman loves it, and I go "Yo, dude, you're alright. Take this PoS off my hands for twenty bucks." We skip GameStop entirely. If that's not still possible, I'm still grumpy. (I'm actually grumpy anyway, the used games sales was only part of my nerd rage.)

I wish they'd just figure it out. A giant company being this confused and indecisive doesn't help bolster my confidence in their eventual product.
 
[quote name='Erad30']Right but wouldn't a one-time authentication pretty much accomplish that? Why do I need to check in at least once a day? If my internet is down or I'm out of town for awhile, does that mean I have to re-register (and possibly even re-install) my game? Maybe even my services? It probably stops at having to re-enter an authorize code to be fair but that's still ridiculous.[/QUOTE]

There's probably a piracy angle we're not seeing.

I know people like to think companies do stupid shit for no reason, and sometimes dumb companies do, but there are so many smart people at microsoft that there's definitely a reason for the daily authentication. (And it's always money.)

edit: It might have to do with those keygen programs and/or stolen serials. On the computer, if you enter a serial number that works and you never allow the program to "phone home," you can use that program forever. However, if a publisher requires daily authentication, they can always add serial numbers to a blacklist database.

[quote name='Broken Cage']But what if I hate Call of Duty: Ghosts and Cancerman loves it, and I go "Yo, dude, you're alright. Take this PoS off my hands for twenty bucks." We skip GameStop entirely. If that's not still possible, I'm still grumpy. (I'm actually grumpy anyway, the used games sales was only part of my nerd rage.)

I wish they'd just figure it out. A giant company being this confused and indecisive doesn't help bolster my confidence in their eventual product.[/QUOTE]

If you notice, the new company line has been "you will be able to trade in and sell your games at retail." At retail being the key words. No more giving it to a friend or selling it on craigslist or ebay or cag. And I agree, it's bullshit that you can't do that. Which is why I might go PS4 exclusively next gen. And I love my xbox360.


Obviously all of the above is conjecture on my part but that's how I'm reading all the tea leaves.
 
But I think the people at MS are in a kind of bubble and aren't really aware of much outside of their campus. Just look at Adam Orth.
 
Theft and loss could get pretty tricky since someone could steal or find your lost disc and then proceed to also remove your digital access to the game when they sell it thus adding insult to injury.
 
One more comment. While I am mostly pessimistic regarding the used game scheme, there is this quote from the Kotaku interview.

[quote name='kotaku']
"We will have a solution—we’re not talking about it today—for you to be able to trade your previously-played games online"[/quote]

And the author rightly points out that if you can now trade used games, for no additional fee, online in real time, that is a big deal and a big plus.

Imagine I buy Tomb Raider, beat it in two days, put it on ebay, sell it in 24 hours, and email a code or something to the buyer so no shipping is necessary. That would be a big deal and I think most consumers will see that as a plus. I think that's a plus. If the system works like that.

We'll just have to wait and see how it works.
 
[quote name='confoosious']Sure it makes sense. Because this Azure authentication system (or whatever they're calling it.) is how you get used games.

1. Person A buys new. A has the original key. Finishes the game.
2. A sells to gamestop. Gamestop reports the serial or whatever. Person A can no longer play the game.
3. Gamestop sells it for $whatever. Msft and pub get their 10%.
4. Person B buys it from gamestop. They get a new serial to authenticate.

That's it. The difference here (according to polygon) would be that person B doesn't have to "pay a fee" to play the old game. (They simply are paying what gamestop is charging.)

Now,

1. Person Person B is done with it.
2. B sells to gamestop. Gamestop reports the serial or whatever. Person B can no longer play the game.
3. Gamestop sells it for whatever. Msft and pub get their 10%.
4. Person C buys it from gamestop. They get a new serial to authenticate.

That's why you always need authentication.

Rinse. Repeat.[/QUOTE]

I assume this is going to be the way it works as well. The actual game key/serial whatever will be hardcoded onto the disc versus a piece of paper.

IF MS is boneheaded enough to distribute flyers I forsee a shitstorm of CD key theft. What to stop anyone from swiping codes from gamestop or any rental chai (if they are on MS's list of approved resellers/renters).

Example: Gamestop worker "preps" game as per policy, making the copy a dead box. He can easily swipe the code for himself along with the disc (and bring the disc back in the next day).
Install it onto his Xbox, screw the customer by blaming EA/MS/Whoever.

Unless Gamestop changes their game gutting policies, This being a logistics nightmare.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']People doing bootleg games aren't going to connect their console to the Internet anyway. Bootleggers will always be out there and MS cannot stop it. How about - Insert disk - game authenticated - DONE![/QUOTE]

Developers and publishers may add online components to their games which would require connecting to the internet. This could prevent bootlegs from working since online would be part of the game.
 
[quote name='Fell Open Ian']Theft and loss could get pretty tricky since someone could steal or find your lost disc and then proceed to also remove your digital access to the game when they sell it thus adding insult to injury.[/QUOTE]


That's a good point

You register game with serial/activation.

Dirtbag cousin/friend swipes/ex your game and sells it to GS.

They profit from sale

You no longer have access to game
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']I assume part of the "check" is so that you can play without the disk. That would be the most benign use of suck a DRM.[/QUOTE]

The online check could also check that you haven't given away or sold your game so that they can disable your copy.
 
[quote name='tokyostomp']That's a good point

You register game with serial/activation.

Dirtbag cousin/friend swipes/ex your game and sells it to GS.

They profit from sale

You no longer have access to game[/QUOTE]

How's that any different from the current system? If your Dirtbag cousin/friend swipes your disc and sells it to GS, you still don't have access to the game.

-------

The biggest bullshit in my mind to this new system is you can't ever lend games to anyone. Unless you go over to their house, log in on your account. That's just lame.
 
[quote name='confoosious']How's that any different from the current system? If your Dirtbag cousin/friend swipes your disc and sells it to GS, you still don't have access to the game.


-------

The biggest bullshit in my mind to this new system is you can't ever lend games to anyone. Unless you go over to their house, log in on your account. That's just lame.[/QUOTE]

Shhh...logic.
 
[quote name='confoosious']How's that any different from the current system? If your Dirtbag cousin/friend swipes your disc and sells it to GS, you still don't have access to the game.

-------

The biggest bullshit in my mind to this new system is you can't ever lend games to anyone. Unless you go over to their house, log in on your account. That's just lame.[/QUOTE]


That's true but with this system you'll less liable to notice the theft immediately. You have Blops2 swiped. You're likely gonna notice when you try to play it.

Next gen, Blops3 get swiped. You can still play it. Don't notice say for a week or 2. I believe it's be harder to pinpoint the crime.



Also the whole lending this, MS hasn't made clear how this works. From their word dancing I assume it means that only YOU (Or Him) can play on YOUR account. I don't believe a dual login system would work. As soon as he tried playing on his GT he's get locked out, Despite you're authorized GT still being logged in. That was may takeaway from it.
 
[quote name='confoosious']How's that any different from the current system? If your Dirtbag cousin/friend swipes your disc and sells it to GS, you still don't have access to the game.

The biggest bullshit in my mind to this new system is you can't ever lend games to anyone.[/QUOTE]

It's different because the install will be mandatory and the disc won't be needed to play the game. There's a better chance that the disc could be on some shelf or box or closet somewhere away from your attention or game area, and if the disc uses an activation key tied directly to the disc itself then if someone swipes it and trades it to gamestop, it will disappear from your account automatically.

Of course it's not much different then straight swiping your games from you now, but the separation of disc from your system itself is the key. You're more likely to notice if the disc is no longer in your system.
 
[quote name='Admiral Ackbar']
And the author rightly points out that if you can now trade used games, for no additional fee, online in real time, that is a big deal and a big plus.

Imagine I buy Tomb Raider, beat it in two days, put it on ebay, sell it in 24 hours, and email a code or something to the buyer so no shipping is necessary. That would be a big deal and I think most consumers will see that as a plus. I think that's a plus. If the system works like that.
[/QUOTE]

Most likely, they mean you can trade it for credit with Microsoft or an approved seller like Gamestop online. EBay sales are probably not part of their plan.
 
[quote name='brandtron8000']It's different because the install will be mandatory and the disc won't be needed to play the game. There's a better chance that the disc could be on some shelf or box or closet somewhere away from your attention or game area, and if the disc uses an activation key tied directly to the disc itself then if someone swipes it and trades it to gamestop, it will disappear from your account automatically.

Of course it's not much different then straight swiping your games from you now, but the separation of disc from your system itself is the key. You're more likely to notice if the disc is no longer in your system.[/QUOTE]

Solution: don't let dirt bags into your house.
 
[quote name='cancerman1120']Shhh...logic.[/QUOTE]


You might have missed the part where we were discussing whether or not games could be sold and/or traded outside of the GameStop or other major used game retailer market.

We know that it won't block used games.
They say there is no fee.

How do they intend to keep you from playing the game on your HDD for the month it might take GameStop to sell the copy you just traded in?
 
Let's think globally? Is Microsoft giving up on global sales (outside U.S. / Canada, Australia, U.K.)? I know the got beat pretty bad outside the NTSC-N region this generation but no way a console with these types of restrictions would work well let alone sell well outside the U.S.

So are they planning a console with less intrusive restrictions for other regions? If so I will most likely import.
 
[quote name='Broken Cage']

How do they intend to keep you from playing the game on your HDD for the month it might take GameStop to sell the copy you just traded in?[/QUOTE]

It probably doesn't really matter as long as two people aren't using the same "disc/game" at once. But the simple solution is just have the clerk deactivate your copy upon trade in.

The more I think about it, the more I don't think you have to enter in a code at all if they require everyone have a live-type silver account at the very least.

Every disc is tied to a gamer account. Only discs not tied to a gamer account can be activated. Easy. All the GameStop clerk had to do is put a disc into a drive and click Deactivate. Game is as good as newsed.
 
[quote name='Broken Cage']You might have missed the part where we were discussing whether or not games could be sold and/or traded outside of the GameStop or other major used game retailer market.

We know that it won't block used games.
They say there is no fee.

How do they intend to keep you from playing the game on your HDD for the month it might take GameStop to sell the copy you just traded in?[/QUOTE]

I would guess GS will have the ability to put the disk into a "authentication machine" and remove your authentication. If not then you would have free access until its sold?
 
What about the loss that turns into theft? People still like physical stuff even if it's just an install disc and a manual. What if an installed and registered game disc gets lost somehow? You could have a situation where someone finds it, sells it, and because of this system that person then becomes a thief as it is revoked from your account when the finder actually had zero malice in mind...just wanted to sell something they'd found.
 
[quote name='Fell Open Ian']What about the loss that turns into theft? People still like physical stuff even if it's just an install disc and a manual. What if an installed and registered game disc gets lost somehow? You could have a situation where someone finds it, sells it, and because of this system that person then becomes a thief as it is revoked from your account when the finder actually had zero malice in mind...just wanted to sell something they'd found.[/QUOTE]

Solution: don't sell stuff you find.

I think it's actually unlawful to take anything that doesn't belong to you even if you just find it. That's why if a bag of money falls off a truck, it's not yours. Obviously in practice this is never enforced except for large sums of money.

Alternate solution: don't lose your discs.

If you lose your disc and someone sells it to GameStop, you no longer have access to that game. Same as before.
 
[quote name='Blaster man']Why did Major Nelson say you had to be logged into your gamer tag at a friend's house a couple days ago? Is this a policy change?[/QUOTE]

Because that disc is tied to your gamer tag.
 
The point is that when you have a physical disc which can be used to revoke someone's digital access then things can get tricky fast.
 
[quote name='confoosious']Solution: don't sell stuff you find.

I think it's actually unlawful to take anything that doesn't belong to you even if you just find it. That's why if a bag of money falls off a truck, it's not yours. Obviously in practice this is never enforced except for large sums of money.

Alternate solution: don't lose your discs.

If you lose your disc and someone sells it to GameStop, you no longer have access to that game. Same as before.[/QUOTE]
Okay so why do you need to be logged in? Why can't your buddy just install on his HDD and authorize it there then when you go home, take it with you and reauthorize it on yours?

"The Xbox One will not require gamers to pay a fee to reactivate a used game, but it will require a regular online spot check to verify the authenticity of games being played, according to sources familiar with the system."

To me this means that I can move that disk around as much as I want and authorize it as often as I want and if I so choose, sell it on eBay.
 
I would think reinserting the disk would override any internet authentication in cases where your internet goes down or the servers are down. It seems like a simple solution so I hope they have thought about doing that.
 
[quote name='Fell Open Ian']The point is that when you have a physical disc which can be used to revoke someone's digital access then things can get tricky fast.[/QUOTE]

Why? The person who physically owns the disc owns the content. Nothing has changed except that its also tied to your gamer tag.

Don't lose your disc if you want to keep playing the game. Same as before.

In fact, with the new system, you can even destroy the disc and keep playing.

Solution to all your objections about this stuff is not to lose or have your disc stolen. I don't see how this is different from before.
 
[quote name='Fell Open Ian']The point is that when you have a physical disc which can be used to revoke someone's digital access then things can get tricky fast.[/QUOTE]

This. Still sounds likes there's way too many parts in this DRM system that can potentially go wrong for paying customers.
 
[quote name='brandtron8000']This. Still sounds likes there's way too many parts in this DRM system that can potentially go wrong for paying customers.[/QUOTE]

HOW?

In what scenario is this drm worse for you than before if you lose your disc?
 
If I buy a physical copy of a Steam game, use the disc to install it to my HDD, tie it to my account, and then that disc gets lost or stolen the new owner of the disc can't revoke my legitimate access to the game. With the Xbox One people can do that and the potential for fraud is very much something that people should be concerned about.
 
[quote name='spatenfloot']Most likely, they mean you can trade it for credit with Microsoft or an approved seller like Gamestop online. EBay sales are probably not part of their plan.[/QUOTE]

eBay must be sweating this next gen announcement. Amazon can probably resell used games. It really hurts eBay since video game items charge a hefty commission.
 
[quote name='Fell Open Ian']If I buy a physical copy of a Steam game, use the disc to install it to my HDD, tie it to my account, and then that disc gets lost or stolen the new owner of the disc can't revoke my legitimate access to the game. With the Xbox One people can do that and the potential for fraud is very much something that people should be concerned about.[/QUOTE]

Why are you comparing it to steam? Compare it to the 360.

Steam won't let you resell your games.

Steam !=Xbox1
 
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