Proposition 8 same sex marriage ban poll

von551

CAGiversary!
Just curious where you californian CAG's stand if you had to vote on the propostion today. Yes on prop 8 bans same sex marriage, No on prop 8 allows same sex marriage. If you don't know much, educate yourself and realize it's not the proposition the gay-influenced-liberal-media tells you. This is a fork in the road for our state and our nation, for "as california goes, so goes the nation." For more information, go to iprotectmarriage.com

If gays have a right to get married, then how can they say a man doesn't have the right to marry his daughter, or a minor, or three women? The same-sex marriage movement has more to do with validation and social respect than legal rights. But the cost to the rest of society is far too much to pay.

If Prop. 8 loses, churches likely will face lawsuits and persecution if they don't perform same-sex ceremonies.
Churches, synagogues, mosques and other centers of worship have beliefs, practices, and traditions they use to determine what heterosexual couples must meet prior to marriage. That isn't bias; that's freedom of religion.
The government doesn't (as of yet) tell faith-based groups who they can...

  • baptize
  • confirm
  • accept for a bar mitzvah
  • qualify for any other religious function.


If same-sex marriage remains legal, what will happen if a church or religious institution refuses to perform a marriage ceremony for individuals that runs contrary to its belief system? If it refuses, it may be accused of discrimination and be subject to a lawsuit. That is not freedom of religion.


Same-sex marriage separates marriage from parenthood. In Norway, where it has been accepted for a decade, marriage has nearly disappeared, and 70 percent of children are born out of wedlock.

In countries where gay marriage is legal, the average gay man has six partners per year outside of their same-sex marriage. And the average marriage lasts less than two years.

Children from fatherless homes account for 63% of youth suicides, 70% of long-term prison inmates, 71% of high school dropouts, 85% of youth prisoners, and 90% of runaways.

Prop. 8 protects and strengthens society by promoting marriage between a man and a woman.
Simply put, traditional marriage is better for us, mentally, physically and psychologically. We're not making it up; public health statistics confirm this. That's just another reason why Prop. 8 needs to be passed.
Take just one example: Men in traditional marriages are way better off than unmarried men.

  • They live longer: Unmarried men have a 250% higher mortality rate.
  • They're happier: The latest data show that 40% of married people say they are very happy with their life in general, compared with less than 25% of single or cohabitating individuals.
  • They're richer: Married men earn more too... 10-40% more than single or cohabitating men.
What this means is that fewer of your tax dollars go to pay for social programs caused by unhealthy and unwise living.


For centuries, marriage as a legal, civil and religious institution between a man and a woman has protected children and society in every country and culture.
In March 7, 2000, 61% of California voters passed Proposition 22 — to keep marriage between a man and a woman. [1]
On Aug. 8, 2008, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control reported that 53% of new HIV infections in 2006 occurred in gay or bisexual men. More infections occurred among young people under 30 (aged 13–29) than any other age group (34%, or 19,200). African Americans, while comprising 13% of the US population, accounted for 45% of the new HIV infections in 2006. [3] [4]
 
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[quote name='von551']
If interracial couples have a right to get married, then how can they say a man doesn't have the right to marry his daughter, or a minor, or three women? The interracial marriage movement has more to do with validation and social respect than legal rights. But the cost to the rest of society is far too much to pay.[/quote]

Oh, I get it now. How could I have ever been so blind?
 
[quote name='SpazX']I've never seen someone throw so many unrelated statistics into a discussion...[/QUOTE]

This, and good luck with this discussion.
 
They're doing it in an effort to overturn the California's Supreme Court ruling earlier in the year. Even if it passes, the California Supreme Court will probably say it doesn't count (it's been done before)

If Prop. 8 loses, churches likely will face lawsuits and persecution if they don't perform same-sex ceremonies.
Churches, synagogues, mosques and other centers of worship have beliefs, practices, and traditions they use to determine what heterosexual couples must meet prior to marriage. That isn't bias; that's freedom of religion.

Quoted for emphasis.
 
I voted no. But i do believe they are fucking stupid if they want to get married. I just hope they get ram rodded by those stupid divorce laws and realize that they willingly gulped down that shit sandwich.
 
KingBroly and OP, I don't see how prop 8 protects churches from have lawsuits brought against them. Are they currently being sued for it? There are always a few assholes who are going to be dicks about it and sue some church, but allowing gay people to get married won't force any churches to perform them.

Could I, as a straight person, force any church to perform a marriage for me?
 
[quote name='SpazX']KingBroly and OP, I don't see how prop 8 protects churches from have lawsuits brought against them. Are they currently being sued for it? There are always a few assholes who are going to be dicks about it and sue some church, but allowing gay people to get married won't force any churches to perform them.

Could I, as a straight person, force any church to perform a marriage for me?[/QUOTE]

I was actually wondering this myself. They don't have to marry you even if you don't belong to the faith, right?
 
[quote name='SpazX']KingBroly and OP, I don't see how prop 8 protects churches from have lawsuits brought against them. Are they currently being sued for it? There are always a few assholes who are going to be dicks about it and sue some church, but allowing gay people to get married won't force any churches to perform them.

Could I, as a straight person, force any church to perform a marriage for me?[/quote]

He's saying that if prop 8 fails, this will happen. Currently, gay marriage is allowed in California because of the California Supreme Court's ruling earlier this year. The fear by some is that if Gay marriage is legal, gay couples will want to get married in churches that don't allow it, and those people will sue in order to get married there or else that church could not hand out marriage licenses AT ALL.
 
[quote name='KingBroly']He's saying that if prop 8 fails, this will happen. Currently, gay marriage is allowed in California because of the California Supreme Court's ruling earlier this year. The fear by some is that if Gay marriage is legal, gay couples will want to get married in churches that don't allow it, and those people will sue in order to get married there or else that church could not hand out marriage licenses AT ALL.[/quote]

And I'm saying - is that a rational fear?

Can churches not currently deny marriages to whoever they want? Can you sue a synagogue for not performing a christian marriage? You can get a marriage license from the state, so I don't see why any particular church is obligated to give one to anybody. Besides that, I'd think that most gay people who are religious and attend a church and intend to get married probably attend one that would marry them anyway.
 
Gays and Lesbians are entitled to the same happiness and unhappiness marriage brings. As for preserving the "sanctity" of marriage between a man and a woman, perhaps this would actually be a valid argument if straight couples weren't fucking it up 50% of the time and getting divorced. You cannot play the "Holier than thou" card the same time you play the "Do as I say, not as I do" card, God will Mana Burn the shit out of you.

As for the churches, gay marriage falls under the same guidelines: It is the CHURCH'S decision to accept and perform the marriage ceremony. Any law regarding this would only GRANT A MARRIAGE LICENSE, the ceremony itself falls under the SEPARATION OF CHURCH AND STATE. Just as a Jewish temple has the right to turn away a Muslim marriage, so does a Christian church have the right to refuse a gay marriage, but they are all entitled to have their marriage recognized by the state, even if a ceremony does not accompany it. It is up to the couple to find a church that works for them, not threaten to sue for discrimination (which would be thrown out).

As for every other worthless fear-mongering statistic you threw into your argument, let's get one thing clear: There WILL be a day when gay marriage is the norm, and when that day comes, and the world has not ended, will you still be blaming shitty marriage statistics on them, or will you look your wife in the eyes and start wondering if your intolerance and ignorance is leading you down the path of failure?

If you can't even fathom the idea everyone in this world deserves a chance at love and happiness regardless of their origins or beliefs, as long as they do not take it away from others, how the hell can you even think for a second that your own love life is a success?

You cannot have what you do not wish upon others.

~HotShotX
 
I'll have to remember to come back to this thread when I'm in a bad mood. Ripping apart posts like that (OP) makes me feel better. When I'm in a decent mood, though, I just can't make myself care enough to bother.
 
f gays have a right to get married, then how can they say a man doesn't have the right to marry his daughter, or a minor, or three women? The same-sex marriage movement has more to do with validation and social respect than legal rights. But the cost to the rest of society is far too much to pay

Marrying your daughter would constitute incest, illegal; minors don't have the right of consent, so that nixes that one (also goes for Santorum's fave claim that gay marriage would lead to men marrying sheep, sheep can't say, "I Do!" - something fishy about that guy). It does bring up the issue of Polyamory, but as long as the marriage laws still say marriage is between two individuals, no harm, no foul.

Massachusetts has had gay marriage for what? Four years? I haven't heard of any churches being sued or any of the complaints you've brought up. The world didn't end, the legal system hasn't been bogged down, no one tried to marry their daughter - or son for that matter - and no one married a sheep.

As long as i don't wake up after a night out drinking married to Dave the bartender, I have no problem with same sex marriage.

PS - Lesbians are awesome, just thought I'd float that out there.
 
[quote name='von551']If you don't know much, educate yourself and realize it's not the proposition the gay-influenced-liberal-media tells you.[/QUOTE]

What kinda fuckin' Candy Land are you living in, pal?

EDIT: You forgot legalizing marrying your dog and cats, too. That's totally gonna happen.
 
[quote name='mykevermin']What kinda fuckin' Candy Land are you living in, pal?

EDIT: You forgot legalizing marrying your dog and cats, too. That's totally gonna happen.[/QUOTE]

If we were able to marry our dogs maybe we wouldn't have to stock up on so much peanut butter.
 
[quote name='von551']

If Prop. 8 loses, churches likely will face lawsuits and persecution if they don't perform same-sex ceremonies.
Churches, synagogues, mosques and other centers of worship have beliefs, practices, and traditions they use to determine what heterosexual couples must meet prior to marriage. That isn't bias; that's freedom of religion.
The government doesn't (as of yet) tell faith-based groups who they can...

  • baptize
  • confirm
  • accept for a bar mitzvah
  • qualify for any other religious function.
If same-sex marriage remains legal, what will happen if a church or religious institution refuses to perform a marriage ceremony for individuals that runs contrary to its belief system? If it refuses, it may be accused of discrimination and be subject to a lawsuit. That is not freedom of religion.
[/quote]
You're confusing a religious marriage and a legal marriage. You can be married without involving any religion at all. Lifting a legal ban affects religious groups in no way whatsoever (at least in the way that you claim). Since churches are considered private institutions (I think they are anyway), they can refuse to marry any one they want to.

Same-sex marriage separates marriage from parenthood. In Norway, where it has been accepted for a decade, marriage has nearly disappeared, and 70 percent of children are born out of wedlock.
moz-screenshot.jpg

In countries where gay marriage is legal, the average gay man has six partners per year outside of their same-sex marriage. And the average marriage lasts less than two years.
This sounds like a fact from the well trusted 'out of my ass' university and I'm not going to touch it.

Children from fatherless homes account for 63% of youth suicides, 70% of long-term prison inmates, 71% of high school dropouts, 85% of youth prisoners, and 90% of runaways.
Has nothing to do with gay marriage as all those stats are from (if not made up) 'fatherless homes' as in single mother. It has no relevance to a same sex married couple. As far as I know, there has been no studies done on the effect of same sex parents on a child.

Prop. 8 protects and strengthens society by promoting marriage between a man and a woman.
Simply put, traditional marriage is better for us, mentally, physically and psychologically. We're not making it up; public health statistics confirm this. That's just another reason why Prop. 8 needs to be passed.
Traditional marriages have roughly a 50% failure rate in this country. Are you going to claim that this is because gay people want to marry?

Take just one example: Men in traditional marriages are way better off than unmarried men.

  • They live longer: Unmarried men have a 250% higher mortality rate.
  • They're happier: The latest data show that 40% of married people say they are very happy with their life in general, compared with less than 25% of single or cohabitating individuals.
  • They're richer: Married men earn more too... 10-40% more than single or cohabitating men.
What this means is that fewer of your tax dollars go to pay for social programs caused by unhealthy and unwise living.
So you're saying that men are happier when married? Then why would you not want them to be able to marry each other? Who says that the same effects wouldn't pass on to them?

For centuries, marriage as a legal, civil and religious institution between a man and a woman has protected children and society in every country and culture.
Not true, but whatever.

In March 7, 2000, 61% of California voters passed Proposition 22 — to keep marriage between a man and a woman. [1]
On Aug. 8, 2008, the U.S. Centers for Disease Control reported that 53% of new HIV infections in 2006 occurred in gay or bisexual men. More infections occurred among young people under 30 (aged 13–29) than any other age group (34%, or 19,200). African Americans, while comprising 13% of the US population, accounted for 45% of the new HIV infections in 2006. [3] [4]
I'm not exactly sure what you're trying to say with these stats. Californians passed a similar law back in 2000, but this has no bearing on your argument. Many things change in 8 years. The majority of new infections are found in homosexuals. This makes sense since homosexuals make up roughly 55% of all cases of AIDS through 2006. Source However, even though they make up that much of the AIDS population, that's still only roughly 1/2 million people. Hardly that threatening to even the rest of the roughly 4-5% of people that are gay in the United States (% pulled from Wikipedia. I know, but I couldn't find any stats on number of gay men in the united states). 4% of 300 million is 12 million. 0.5 million is roughly 4% of the gay population. Not exactly a huge number.
 
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HotShotX dropped some knowledge all over this retarded thread. The "facts" in the OP are hilarious though so thanks for that...
 
[quote name='SpazX']And I'm saying - is that a rational fear?

Can churches not currently deny marriages to whoever they want? Can you sue a synagogue for not performing a christian marriage? You can get a marriage license from the state, so I don't see why any particular church is obligated to give one to anybody. Besides that, I'd think that most gay people who are religious and attend a church and intend to get married probably attend one that would marry them anyway.[/QUOTE]
Yes, religious organizations can deny a religious ceremony to anyone they choose, and gay marriage will have zero affect on the ability of religious organizations to choose how to exercise their religion. The Catholics require legal statements from friends of party attesting to their faith and religious viewpoints. Without these, Catholics will deny even Catholics marriage in their churches.

Any suit would receive swift and painful summary judgment against the plaintiff. They'd be thrown out of court.

If there is another outlet that satisfies the legal requirement, then original outlets are absolved (as long as they aren't governmental). For example, since a courthouse can issue a marriage license, churches are not obligated to act as such. The license is the key issue, not the ceremony. Religious people opposed to gay marriage don't seem to understand this very fundamental issue of law... or they're lying in order to whip up opposition.

I leave the judgment of their actions (liars or misinformed) to you.

[quote name='von551']The same-sex marriage movement has more to do with validation and social respect than legal rights.[/quote]
Which makes your choice to attempt to deny their legal rights that much more... puzzling. If you stuck to denying validation and social respect, you'd garner more support from those that may see you viewpoint but haven't denied the supremacy of the Constitution.

[quote name='von551']The government doesn't (as of yet) tell faith-based groups who they can...

  • baptize
  • confirm
  • accept for a bar mitzvah
  • qualify for any other religious function.
[/quote]
They need only not accept federal funds if they wish to remain independent. Is it too much to ask welfare churches to modify their behavior? Should a church that accepts my tax money (and they do) be allowed to do so without strings attached?

[quote name='von551']Prop. 8 protects and strengthens society by promoting marriage between a man and a woman.
Simply put, traditional marriage is better for us, mentally, physically and psychologically. We're not making it up; public health statistics confirm this. That's just another reason why Prop. 8 needs to be passed.
Take just one example: Men in traditional marriages are way better off than unmarried men.[/QUOTE]

I've heard this logic before... where was it? Oh, right. It went something like this:

Prop. 8 protects and strengthens society by promoting marriage between a white man and a white woman.
Simply put, traditional race marriage is better for us, mentally, physically and psychologically. We're not making it up; public health statistics confirm this. That's just another reason why Prop. 8 needs to be passed.
Take just one example: Men in traditional race marriages are way better off than mixed race marriages.

Well this is fun! Let's look at the lower court's opinion in Loving v. Virginia, the one that denied the "right" to interracial marriage and see if we see any similarities with the OP's logic:

Almighty God created the races white, black, yellow, Malay and red, and He placed them on separate continents. And but for the interference with His arrangement there would be no cause for such marriages. The fact that He separated the races shows that He did not intend for the races to mix.
Somehow, God has changed his mind in the last 8 years (Alabama's anti-interracial laws came off the books in 2000). Crazy how that works huh?
 
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Wait a minute. I saw something in a quote about how the OP was saying something about interracial marriage and compared it to incest and polygamy but then I go back to the OP and it's gone.

Now I see more about Almighty God and not wanting them to mix. Then why the hell did Europeans colonize the Americas and ship mad Black people over to do slave work? If God didn't want us to mingle, then why did the Americas become a true melting pot?
 
[quote name='Koggit']I'll have to remember to come back to this thread when I'm in a bad mood. Ripping apart posts like that (OP) makes me feel better. When I'm in a decent mood, though, I just can't make myself care enough to bother.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Cheese']PS - Lesbians are awesome, just thought I'd float that out there.[/QUOTE]

[quote name='Mr Unoriginal']If we were able to marry our dogs maybe we wouldn't have to stock up on so much peanut butter.[/QUOTE]

Between you guys and HotShot and Spaz and TheSpamofpower, this is one of the best threads in ages.

[quote name='depascal22']Wait a minute. I saw something in a quote about how the OP was saying something about interracial marriage and compared it to incest and polygamy but then I go back to the OP and it's gone.[/QUOTE]

Well, that tends to happen when someone makes a ridiculous post and people who are far, far more knowledgeable show up and proceed to mud-hole stomp the shit out of his or her stupid-ass opinion.
 
[quote name='Koggit']I'll have to remember to come back to this thread when I'm in a bad mood. Ripping apart posts like that (OP) makes me feel better. When I'm in a decent mood, though, I just can't make myself care enough to bother.[/quote]
Spam and Speed and... well, really, a lot of people did damn good jobs, but I get the feeling that you'll be angrier and possibly a little drunk when you finally get around to making good on that threat, so I eagerly anticipate this post.
 
[quote name='depascal22']Wait a minute. I saw something in a quote about how the OP was saying something about interracial marriage and compared it to incest and polygamy but then I go back to the OP and it's gone.[/quote]

You're probably referring to my post.

I simply switched out "same-sex" with "interracial" to make a point.
 
Bottom line: If you vote for this, then you have no respect for human life and I hope your children end up being gay so you can be labled as a horrible parent and a horrible person.
 
I really wish people would stop trying to legislate other people's private behavior. I just want to know who is honestly threatened by gay people getting married? Anyone?

If someone invites me to a wedding, I'm there with bells and whistles. Who cares if it's two dudes, two girls, or a guy and a girl. It's a wedding! C'mon. Who doesn't like an open bar and a DJ playing the Humpty Dance followed by Nat King Cole's Unforgettable?
 
It's hilarious how conservatives only care about choice when it doesn't involve choosing to go against the Bible.

That's our constitutional right!!

Wait.. you can't do that, the Bible says so!!
 
Gay people should be able to marry (and be in the military for that matter). They have the right to pursue happiness as much as anyone else and it's more than ridiculous that people can't see that. Gay people marrying has nothing to do with the marriage of straight couples despite what some people think.

George Takei had to wait until his 70's to get married and it would be an utter shame if things are reversed now.
 
I don't really care if gay people get married. But if they do, they'll turn more people gay. And I don't want more gay people. Not that I don't like gay people, I just think it should be men and women together. So, I don't know. I'm teetering on the edge.
 
[quote name='thrustbucket']Human life? What does it have to do with Human life? Don't you mean Human rights?[/QUOTE]

No I mean LIFE. People need to respect PEOPLE and leave other people alone--THIS does NOT concern anyone except for gay people, everyone else DOES NOT QUALIFY TO HAVE AN OPINION. Who the fuck is ANYONE to say "THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE MARRIED!"? Hmm? No one. I know your Thrusbucket and you will go on a big rant and end up talking about polygamy, but the truth is: Anyone who disagrees with this is wrong and a bad person. :nottalking:

[quote name='Access_Denied']I don't really care if gay people get married. But if they do, they'll turn more people gay. And I don't want more gay people. Not that I don't like gay people, I just think it should be men and women together. So, I don't know. I'm teetering on the edge.[/QUOTE]

You HAVE to be joking.
Right?
Oh dear GOD, please tell me you said that for the lulz...

Yeah. We have secret underground meetings and we have contests on how many straight people we can convert. The contests run quarterly. Gay marriage is not about us having equal rights; it's about trying to win a contest.

..PLEASE be kidding!!
 
[quote name='lilboo']No I mean LIFE. People need to respect PEOPLE and leave other people alone--THIS does NOT concern anyone except for gay people, everyone else DOES NOT QUALIFY TO HAVE AN OPINION. Who the fuck is ANYONE to say "THEY ARE NOT ALLOWED TO BE MARRIED!"? Hmm? No one. I know your Thrusbucket and you will go on a big rant and end up talking about polygamy, but the truth is: Anyone who disagrees with this is wrong and a bad person. :nottalking:[/quote]

You are still talking about human rights. Nobody is dying, thus it's not a human life issue.


That's not to devalue it's importance, but there is a difference.
 
It is very much a human rights issue. Of course it is.

But doesn't that go with respect for PEOPLE? It hits both. It's against rights we have as humans and it just disrespects people.
 
[quote name='lilboo']It is very much a human rights issue. Of course it is.

But doesn't that go with respect for PEOPLE? It hits both. It's against rights we have as humans and it just disrespects people.[/QUOTE]

Oh.

So you do respect polygamists.






;)
 
[quote name='mykevermin']:rofl:

homeland's a jokin, toots.[/QUOTE]

:lol: I know!!

[quote name='thrustbucket']Oh.

So you do respect polygamists.






;)[/QUOTE]


:rofl: Hate you.
But I do!
 
[quote name='lilboo']THIS does NOT concern anyone except for gay people[/QUOTE]

Disagreed.

Really, there are two fights to be had here:

(1) Gays against religion -- gays can try to convince bible thumpers that being gay isn't a sin. IMO there's no right or wrong here... people of faith will always believe wacky things, there's no changing that.

(2) Non-bible thumpers against the government -- we need to convince our politicians that marriage, as a religious tradition, should in no way be recognized by the state or country as independent of a civil union. Our government should recognize unions, and those unions should neither be restricted by gender, race, nor sexuality. Marriage should never enter play here, and there should be nothing in our laws giving marriage special attention.


Both fights should be cared about by more than just gays.
 
[quote name='Access_Denied']I don't really care if gay people get married. But if they do, they'll turn more people gay. And I don't want more gay people. Not that I don't like gay people, I just think it should be men and women together. So, I don't know. I'm teetering on the edge.[/quote]

:rofl:

Don't talk to lilboo man, you'll be gay in seconds!
 
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