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They Should Just Make Being Poor and a CheapAss a Crime Already


#1 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   7124 Posts   Joined 12.2 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 19 May 2014 - 08:33 PM

http://www.npr.org/2...heir-punishment

 

On the radio a story about how courts are pushing the costs of running the system onto the defendants, and it really doesn't help that most of these people can't afford to pay such fees. You may be provided a lawyer (public defender), but in a lot of places you will be forced to pay for your lawyer and administrative fees as well. If you can't, you are going to jail for that debt.

Don't think you can delay paying off those fees and fines, because they'll also tack an interest rate on top of it.

And the kicker, if you want to work off the debt with the local government, you have to pay them in order to do so.

 

Biggest advice for most Americans? Be obedient little sheep and don't even attempt to be low hanging fruit for the cops.

 

Turns out there's a Supreme Court case that ruled that you can't put people into jail for not being able to pay their fines: http://www.npr.org/2...debtors-prisons But surely states rights trump that.



#2 irideabike   no show CAGiversary!   6039 Posts   Joined 10.6 Years Ago  

irideabike

Posted 22 May 2014 - 01:02 PM

Biggest advice for most Americans?  Don't be a criminal or do something stupid that would get you involved with the cops.



#3 WH_Woolhat  

WH_Woolhat

Posted 22 May 2014 - 02:39 PM

Biggest advice for most Americans?  Don't be a criminal or do something stupid that would get you involved with the cops.

Because innocent people never get arrested



#4 irideabike   no show CAGiversary!   6039 Posts   Joined 10.6 Years Ago  

irideabike

Posted 22 May 2014 - 03:22 PM

Read the article please lad.  No where is it mentioned about all the innocent men and women in jail.  I've heard almost 95% of the criminals in our prison system are innocent when polled.



#5 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   7124 Posts   Joined 12.2 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 14 June 2014 - 10:12 AM

http://thecolbertrep...-debt-or-prison
 
The Colbert Report did it right. If you steal a $2 can of beer, you deserve to remain in jail because you can't pay your court fees and for the cushy room and board you got for the night before trial. If it costs $20k to jail a person, and for that person it includes a place to sleep, meals, and recreation, that's so much better than most Americans have to day. Everybody poor should commit a petty crime in the Real America!
 
Oh yeah, a mother went to jail because her child skipped school and couldn't pay the fine. And she died.

#6 GBAstar   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   9696 Posts   Joined 8.6 Years Ago  

Posted 14 June 2014 - 10:30 AM

http://thecolbertrep...-debt-or-prison
 
The Colbert Report did it right. If you steal a $2 can of beer, you deserve to remain in jail because you can't pay your court fees and for the cushy room and board you got for the night before trial. If it costs $20k to jail a person, and for that person it includes a place to sleep, meals, and recreation, that's so much better than most Americans have to day. Everybody poor should commit a petty crime in the Real America!
 
Oh yeah, a mother went to jail because her child skipped school and couldn't pay the fine. And she died.

outliers ftw!

 

exceptions aside, who should be paying for the court costs associated for people that break the laws governing the country? If you have a problem with a law, or mandatory sentence, isn't their a better way to go about trying to get that changed?

 

It does pain my heart though to hear about all these innocents who can't afford their court costs... not like any of them have tattoos, or cell phones, or......... oh yeah priorities.



#7 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   7124 Posts   Joined 12.2 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 14 June 2014 - 10:33 AM

What the hell is the point of paying taxes if it's all going into the salaries of no bid contracts and do nothing politicians? Most Americans don't really care about exactly where the taxpayer money goes, but they should reasonably assume that like the roads they walk on, and the schools their children go to, law & order should be paid for. If the poor deserve to stay in jail because they can't pay for the process that arose from their nearly valueless crime, they should just throw everybody including you, those wacko liberals, those irrational conservatives and reactionaries and I to jail and cut out the middle man.



#8 rebelschs   Necessary Evil CAGiversary!   259 Posts   Joined 6.1 Years Ago  

rebelschs

Posted 15 June 2014 - 02:04 AM

 

It does pain my heart though to hear about all these innocents who can't afford their court costs... not like any of them have tattoos, or cell phones, or......... oh yeah priorities.

See, that is where you are wrong. Just because some people work so they can buy things like phones, tattoos, games, cars, a house, pay their bills, etc. doesn't mean that deadbeats should not have the same things. There should be no reason that they should have to pay these bills. I mean, a lot of them are career criminals and have never had jobs, so there is no way they can pay for this stuff. You know what we should do, we should take up a collection and send these guys some money to help cover those costs. Even better, we should just go the Obama route and send them half of our paychecks so that they have enough money and don't have to commit crimes anymore. That's a good idea.

 

Now for the real answer: This is a wonderful idea. Fuck these people. Let them pay their own bills. If they can't pay them, put them in a prison camp. Let them work for 2 dollars a day and pay off that debt the hard way. We have plenty of work for them to do, dig ditches, pick up cans, be live targets on the gun range. Anything to get the leeches out of society and somewhere productive, whether it be at a job no one else wants or in the grave,



#9 RedvsBlue  

RedvsBlue

Posted 15 June 2014 - 02:07 AM

See, that is where you are wrong. Just because some people work so they can buy things like phones, tattoos, games, cars, a house, pay their bills, etc. doesn't mean that deadbeats should not have the same things. There should be no reason that they should have to pay these bills. I mean, a lot of them are career criminals and have never had jobs, so there is no way they can pay for this stuff. You know what we should do, we should take up a collection and send these guys some money to help cover those costs. Even better, we should just go the Obama route and send them half of our paychecks so that they have enough money and don't have to commit crimes anymore. That's a good idea.

Now for the real answer: This is a wonderful idea. Fuck these people. Let them pay their own bills. If they can't pay them, put them in a prison camp. Let them work for 2 dollars a day and pay off that debt the hard way. We have plenty of work for them to do, dig ditches, pick up cans, be live targets on the gun range. Anything to get the leeches out of society and somewhere productive, whether it be at a job no one else wants or in the grave,

Great idea, I'm sure there's no way that would lead to corruption...
http://www.forbes.co...ickback-scheme/
http://nypost.com/20...payoff-scandal/

#10 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   7124 Posts   Joined 12.2 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 15 June 2014 - 11:27 AM

Did you know that 82% of poor people own a microwave? And that even more own a fridge? Surely they can afford to pay their court fees and room & board.



#11 Spokker   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   2211 Posts   Joined 13.8 Years Ago  

Posted 16 June 2014 - 04:40 AM

http://thecolbertrep...-debt-or-prison
 
The Colbert Report did it right. If you steal a $2 can of beer, you deserve to remain in jail because you can't pay your court fees and for the cushy room and board you got for the night before trial. If it costs $20k to jail a person, and for that person it includes a place to sleep, meals, and recreation, that's so much better than most Americans have to day. Everybody poor should commit a petty crime in the Real America!
 

It seems like it would be really easy to not steal beer. If he were stealing bread to feed his family, that would get a lot more support. But damn, you don't need a can of beer. 



#12 rebelschs   Necessary Evil CAGiversary!   259 Posts   Joined 6.1 Years Ago  

rebelschs

Posted 18 June 2014 - 01:03 AM

Did you know that 82% of poor people own a microwave? And that even more own a fridge? Surely they can afford to pay their court fees and room & board.

Goddamn right!

 

They need to get jobs and stop breaking the law!



#13 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   7124 Posts   Joined 12.2 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 21 June 2014 - 10:38 AM

Let me ask you all a question. If you receive money from the government, do you deserve to give up your rights as an American?
 
In states like California, in an effort to "combat" welfare fraud, the District Attorney's Office in San Diego can send an investigator into your home for a surprise visit. This visit is a warrantless inspection of EVERY nook and cranny into your home, they can search under your bed, rifle through your underwear drawer, look in your closet, your medicine cabinet, your kitchen, your refridgerator, anything that you have. They tell you right before they step in that they can arrest you on the spot if they find anything that remotely resembles fraud. If you aren't home for the surprise inspection, this is also reason to cut your benefits. This is not a minor occurence, if the number of searches reached 26,000 in the year 2011. Is it worth that $300 or even less a month to have some stranger violate your fourth amendment rights? It doesn't matter what type of person you are, from a single male or a single mother with multiple children who has to work two jobs just to make ends meet. This has been done since the late 1980s.
 
How would you like if you got a tax refund from the government, would you like if some law enforcement associate or agent barging into your house to make you prove that you earned this much to deserve what thousands of dollars you "supposedly" got back? Suppose you earn $50k a year, would you like it if said investigator goes through your extensive collection of comics, records, guns, cars, etc?
 
EDIT oops wnt more ranty.



#14 UncleBob  

Posted 21 June 2014 - 11:56 AM

In states like California, in an effort to "combat" welfare fraud, the District Attorney's Office in San Diego can send an investigator into your home for a surprise visit.


I think most of us would say, that's over the top. Although it's interesting that you said "In states like California" when the article you linked to clearly states this *only* happens in one county in one state... but, yes, over the top.

How would you like if you got a tax refund from the government, would you like if some law enforcement associate or agent barging into your house to make you prove that you earned this much to deserve what thousands of dollars you "supposedly" got back?

Funny you should mention...

A) Our tax system is set up so that our government has the "right" to do a warrant-less search of our financial records at any time for any reason what-so-ever. Why is no one ever worried about the fact that we have no rights when it comes to not wanting to submit this data to the government?

B) While they don't "barge" into your home, the IRS audit process is insane and very intimidating for the average person who can't even begin to process the legalize thrown at them. Not to mention, the requirement to keep all your paperwork for three years or more (which, considering the current IRS situation, is quite hilarious). If I had to pick, I'd rather someone come into my home and look for incriminating evidence than go through an IRS audit - not that I have anything to hide from either one (and not that I really want either one).

#15 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   7124 Posts   Joined 12.2 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 21 June 2014 - 01:41 PM

But it'll take quite a while for the IRS to do anything. These guys from the DA's office will start sniffing around like they own the place, and even force you to search through your own garbage to prove your innocence. Seems like a lot of work for a measly $300 a month for a single mother with two kids, or $150 for a single person.It's one thing to have a home inspection, but it's another thing to have that be a thorough scouring of your domicile.

 

I really recommend reading The Divide by Matt Taibbi. It just infuriates me that law enforcement would rather go after low hanging fruit, like minor drug offences and welfare fraud, when just about every week we get evidence of a corporation's misdeeds on the news. And those job creators get a slap on the wrist, especially when it's laundering money for drug cartels harassing Americans over 10+ year debts, the entire financial collapse, and what have you.



#16 rebelschs   Necessary Evil CAGiversary!   259 Posts   Joined 6.1 Years Ago  

rebelschs

Posted 22 June 2014 - 01:06 AM

I don't think they do enough to check up on people for welfare fraud.

 

When over 50% of the country gets a government check, and less than 50% pay into that check, we need to get as many motherfuckers off of that shit as possible.

 

When you have generations of families sucking from the system, we need to do everything to get them out of the system. I'd even go as far as force them to give up their citizenship and be exiled, because I am sick of paying for these leeches to get a free ride.

 

Law enforcement does go after the wrong guys sometimes, I won't argue that. If someone gets busted with a few joints, they are probably not that dangerous.



#17 sweeetja713   Damn you CAG mobile theme! CAGiversary!   2405 Posts   Joined 13.0 Years Ago  

sweeetja713

Posted 26 June 2014 - 11:21 PM

50% of the u.s. population gets a government check huh? Do you have a source or are you just throwing out bs to further support your inane views. Btw those getting social security don't count for receiving a gov check, ya gotta pay in to get that. As far as leeches what about all the richies using foriegn accounts to evade taxes and pating their fair share. I believe the swedish bank thathelped was hiding about 10 billion in taxable revenue, were given a paltry fine and never had to release names of their leeches.

#18 rebelschs   Necessary Evil CAGiversary!   259 Posts   Joined 6.1 Years Ago  

rebelschs

Posted 27 June 2014 - 01:54 AM

Here's some information for you:

 

http://www.heritage....e-on-government

 

Let me know when you finish.



#19 detectiveconan16   Delicious! CAGiversary!   7124 Posts   Joined 12.2 Years Ago  

detectiveconan16

Posted 27 June 2014 - 10:08 AM

I don't listen to the "Heritage Foundation," they have an agenda.

 

Besides if you claim that 50% of the country is on welfare, there is a much bigger problem than leeches on the government dime. Fuck ing over millions of people won't fix anything.



#20 UncleBob  

Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:31 PM

Who do you listen to that doesn't have an agenda?

#21 sweeetja713   Damn you CAG mobile theme! CAGiversary!   2405 Posts   Joined 13.0 Years Ago  

sweeetja713

Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:49 PM

Done reading it, they count social security which I already stated could not be used. They figure people not paying taxes by totaling exemptions on all tax returns vs total population which means individuals with huge write offs count disproportionately against the general population. In other words flawed assumptions and methodology. If I turned something like that in grad school it would have been ripped apart. I do appreciate your citing a source though. Thanks.

#22 sweeetja713   Damn you CAG mobile theme! CAGiversary!   2405 Posts   Joined 13.0 Years Ago  

sweeetja713

Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:53 PM

Oh and they count student loans as getting something from the government too.

#23 RedvsBlue  

RedvsBlue

Posted 27 June 2014 - 12:57 PM

Oh and they count student loans as getting something from the government too.


So basically, according to Heritage Foundation, unless you were born rich then you're mooching off the government. Well, either that or you started your own business and took advantage of absolutely no tax breaks or incentives, cause that happens a lot...

#24 sweeetja713   Damn you CAG mobile theme! CAGiversary!   2405 Posts   Joined 13.0 Years Ago  

sweeetja713

Posted 27 June 2014 - 01:07 PM

Another problem is they acknowledge that of those households not paying taxes "many of these households paid payroll taxes. www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/11/the-2013-index-of-dependence-on-government#_ftn48 sorry for the full link posting from mobile, can't do bbc code

#25 RedvsBlue  

RedvsBlue

Posted 27 June 2014 - 05:35 PM

Another problem is they acknowledge that of those households not paying taxes "many of these households paid payroll taxes. www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/11/the-2013-index-of-dependence-on-government#_ftn48 sorry for the full link posting from mobile, can't do bbc code

Well of course, because the only taxes that count are income and capital gains. Nevermind that we all pay sales taxes, gas taxes, license registration, etc. if your income tax was $0 then you're a moocher.

#26 UncleBob  

Posted 27 June 2014 - 05:45 PM

Another problem is they acknowledge that of those households not paying taxes "many of these households paid payroll taxes. www.heritage.org/research/reports/2013/11/the-2013-index-of-dependence-on-government#_ftn48 sorry for the full link posting from mobile, can't do bbc code


When talking about who pays taxes, anything aside from a direct income tax only applies to those who pay no direct income tax.

"Rich" people who folks often complain about not paying in enough taxes never get things like their sales tax, gas taxes, license registrations, property taxes, inheritance taxes, etc. counted.

After all, how many times have you heard the line about GE paying no taxes...

#27 sweeetja713   Damn you CAG mobile theme! CAGiversary!   2405 Posts   Joined 13.0 Years Ago  

sweeetja713

Posted 27 June 2014 - 06:15 PM

Ah but here's the thing I believe payroll tax in the sense they're using it is income tax. Basically if you're not paying anything when you file your taxes, in their eyes you don't pay taxes. Also they acknowledge these taxes contribute towards government programs but don't cover everything. Well, yeah all of our income taxes combined don't pay for all of the government programs not just this roughly 50% of people.

#28 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1020 Posts   Joined 12.8 Years Ago  

Posted 28 June 2014 - 11:36 AM

So you guys are for a total rebuild of our tax system? Zero deductions. A minimum 10% rate and a maximum of 25%. Everyone pays something regardless of their situation and all "profits" are considered income. No offshore havens or stock options to protect the rich while the poor offer up a little contribution so that they actually have some skin in the game. Tax welfare benefits so that the abusers can actually see how contributing members of society have to deal with our tax burden. Don't we already tax social security benefits at certain amounts? Simplify the hell out of the system, let people self report, but make tax evasion penalties uber harsh and with mandatory minimums.

#29 RedvsBlue  

RedvsBlue

Posted 28 June 2014 - 12:38 PM

So you guys are for a total rebuild of our tax system? Zero deductions. A minimum 10% rate and a maximum of 25%. Everyone pays something regardless of their situation and all "profits" are considered income. No offshore havens or stock options to protect the rich while the poor offer up a little contribution so that they actually have some skin in the game. Tax welfare benefits so that the abusers can actually see how contributing members of society have to deal with our tax burden. Don't we already tax social security benefits at certain amounts? Simplify the hell out of the system, let people self report, but make tax evasion penalties uber harsh and with mandatory minimums.


Those are all great fantasies but the practical effects of implementation would be staggering. For instance, you want to end offshore havens for the rich. The reason those work on a basic level is because people are moving their money to a foreign country; are you saying you want to disallow anyone to move their money to foreign countries? Further, what about corporations using offshore accounts? If that's the case won't the corporation simply move their business outside of the country to avoid taxes? Are you prepared to say that no foreign corporations will be permitted to do business in the US? Essentially create our own little sealed economy?

Look, I'm not saying you're wrong. That's a nice ideal you have laid out. The problem is that the implications of implementing that system would be overwhelming and I frankly feel like the end result won't change that much.

#30 egofed   CAGiversary! CAGiversary!   1020 Posts   Joined 12.8 Years Ago  

Posted 28 June 2014 - 03:33 PM

I am not a tax specialist by any means, but if we could implement a policy in which all profit that is derived from products and services that are sold within the US is subject to taxes, then a company could move their money anywhere they wish. We need cut and dry tax policy, not this behemoth monstrosity that currently exists. No exemptions, no deductions, we could lower the rates because people would then actually pay what they owe versus loop hole specialists.