[Finger_Shocker]

Not at all.  I'm blaming the aggressor for putting the innocent person in harm's way.  In the case of your news story, the hostage-taker.  In the case of Gaza, Hamas.  It's tragic that someone else had to die for the aggressor's behavior but that's why the aggressor needs to be eliminated -- because they don't care for anything or anyone but their own wants.

 

Not a difficult concept.

Yea always easiest to excuse your actions as justified when you got someone else to blame..

 

Pretty sure you have no conscious, if the ends justify the means

 

By the way I hope your loved ones will never be in the cross fire btw two rival groups, but I doubt you value innocent lives when you lack any morals or ethics..

[Syntax Error]

By the way I hope your loved ones will never be in the cross fire btw two rival groups, but I doubt you value innocent lives when you lack any morals or ethics..

 

Huh.  Earlier you were gleefully hoping that "a guy will start a fire fight in a place filled with kids and innocent people and the SWAT teams comes in and start shooting people looking for the suspect with disregard" just to prove a point.  Must be nice to have such fluid convictions.

 

When the only responses you have are "Nuh UH, you're a terrible monster person!!!" illogical appeals to emotion, it's safe to say you have nothing left to offer.

[egofed]

Heheheehhehee...I am waiting for the guys who attacked me for posting about my black friends after calling me a racist to call Bezirk out on his Jewish buddies. What should Israel's policy be if a neighboring area attacks them and is harboring terrorists?

Anybody wanna offer up an answer?

[Finger_Shocker]

Huh.  Earlier you were gleefully hoping that "a guy will start a fire fight in a place filled with kids and innocent people and the SWAT teams comes in and start shooting people looking for the suspect with disregard" just to prove a point.  Must be nice to have such fluid convictions.

 

When the only responses you have are "Nuh UH, you're a terrible monster person!!!" illogical appeals to emotion, it's safe to say you have nothing left to offer.

 

I made my point, that a good amount of you will never value human life and that people are fair game in other people's wars.   You prove it yourself, that the ends justify the means.

 

So you need to stand by and admit that since war sucks 9/11 and Boston bombing was FAIR game, by your set standards.

 

And fyi, the cop made the choose to open fire, just like the cops chose to open fire in California chasing after bank robbers and ended up killing a hostage.. Over what stolen money ?  over f****ing MONEY that is peanuts compare to a actual human life.

But hey instead of choosing to not engage violently and figure the best course of action that preserve lives and still catch the perpetrator.  They instead CHOSE to go on a shootout and kill a hostage.

 

So no don't stand around and thump you are on some side of righteousness when any ends justify the means need. 

[Syntax Error]

Cop in California shoots at bank robbers, therefore Israel shouldn't defend itself against Hamas launching rockets at its citizens.

 

Well, that makes sense.  Thanks.

[Finger_Shocker]

Cop in California shoots at bank robbers, therefore Israel shouldn't defend itself against Hamas launching rockets at its citizens.

 

Well, that makes sense.  Thanks.

Yup you are a moron,

 

I guess when someone attacks you innocent people are fair game in your "defense"... 

 

Again do you support killing innocent people just to punish or capture one person of interest.  Do you feel people who have no involvement in your fight deserve to die because they are in your way

 

You won't answer it because if you did you wouldn't have any morals or conscious, and you won't admit that.  But we all know you are ok to do whatever in the name of "defense"

[Syntax Error]

Again do you support killing innocent people just to punish or capture one person of interest. 

 

Do I "support" it?  No.  But I recognize that it can happen even with procedures in place to prevent it and place the majority of the blame for it on the assailant instead of on the people trying to stop the assailant.  It's possible for me to feel that it's unfortunate and tragic that civilians in Gaza are dying and yet recognize that the entire reason WHY they are dying is because Hamas is indiscriminately attacking Israeli citizens from the middle of a civilian crowd and capitalizing off their deaths in the counter-attack.  No more Hamas rockets directly equals no more dead Palestinians in retaliatory strikes.  Who to blame here should be blindingly obvious and it's not the guys trying to stop Hamas from attacking people.

 

Really, if you have nothing else to add besides pathetic, ham-handed "You're a monster!" comments (oh no, the random internet guy says I have no morals! I better change my opinion immediately!) you should probably just give up.

[Finger_Shocker]

Do I "support" it?  No.  But I recognize that it can happen even with procedures in place to prevent it and place the majority of the blame for it on the assailant instead of on the people trying to stop the assailant.  It's possible for me to feel that it's unfortunate and tragic that civilians in Gaza are dying and yet recognize that the entire reason WHY they are dying is because Hamas is indiscriminately attacking Israeli citizens from the middle of a civilian crowd and capitalizing off their deaths in the counter-attack.  No more Hamas rockets directly equals no more dead Palestinians in retaliatory strikes.  Who to blame here should be blindingly obvious and it's not the guys trying to stop Hamas from attacking people.

 

Really, if you have nothing else to add besides pathetic, ham-handed "You're a monster!" comments (oh no, the random internet guy says I have no morals! I better change my opinion immediately!) you should probably just give up.

 

Fine how many INNOCENT to GUILTY ratio have Israel killed...   enough said

 

Don't need me to tell you are a moral-ethical less person, you doing quite well showing that yourself

 

Keep justifying the means to a end approach,  it why when you choose to fight evil you don't become one yourself...

 

One thing for certain is that bad can admit to doing what they do, a truly evil person would always believe he/she is doing evil but for a better good ... NARCISSIST  

You lost the defense excuse when innocent people become part of vengeance seeking

[UncleBob]

I have no dog in this fight, but if the argument is that Israel is in the wrong for killing innocent Palestinians, wouldn't Hamas be in the wrong for killing innocent Jews?

[berzirk]

I have no dog in this fight, but if the argument is that Israel is in the wrong for killing innocent Palestinians, wouldn't Hamas be in the wrong for killing innocent Jews?

100% YES!!!

[UncleBob]

100% YES!!!

So what's with all the hub-bub about one side being immoral and wanting to bathe in the blood of babies when *both* sides are killing innocents?

[Finger_Shocker]

I have no dog in this fight, but if the argument is that Israel is in the wrong for killing innocent Palestinians, wouldn't Hamas be in the wrong for killing innocent Jews?

 

Fine, Israel should admit they are as much of a FREELY elected terrorist organization as the same FREELY elected terrorist organization in Palestine.

 

So I murder your children and you come by and murder a couple additional children of mine and then you get to sit on your chair and say you are the good guy?  All there is are just monsters except one of them won't admit as much

 

Thats as much as those Southern bible thumpers who say God freed the slaves all the while having their black man pick their cotton, while getting whipped and going home to have a black women cook their supper while they rape her at night

[berzirk]

So what's with all the hub-bub about one side being immoral and wanting to bathe in the blood of babies when *both* sides are killing innocents?

My comments to the really despicable, uneducated, inhumane posters who say that in killing almost 2000 people, mostly civilians, Israel is only defending itself, that that is horseshit.  To sarcastically rationalize it, I pretend to assume the only way a person could justify the indiscriminate killing is by genuinely loving to see children die. 

 

In this conflict Hamas has killed something like 4 civilians.  Each one of those is a travesty, is murder, and is wrong. But we don't equate a guy killing a convenience store clerk while robbing him, to a serial killer who murders dozens of people. Both are murder, but there is a scale to it.

 

Throw in the fact that the US is Israel's strongest ally despite spying on us, bringing us into repeated conflicts, and Israel is a longtime, established country vs. an occupied population, almost literally surrounding by adversaries, and you have a complete abuse of power, confirmed lack of respect for human life, confirmed civilian targets, and confirmed Israeli politicians saying they want to destroy Gaza (which ironically enough is what the uneducated continue to accuse Hamas of aiming to do as justification for killing so many innocent people).

 

So do I think some of the radicals in this thread REALLY want to bathe in, drink, or masturbate in human baby blood, no.  I think that's quite unlikely. But I sure would like to hear how there is any excuse for killing so many civilians, and dismissing it all as self defense.

 

Self defense doesn't mean being punched by some guy, then shooting him, his family, his neighbors, and killing the doctors at the three closest hospitals.

 

There is no excuse for the number of people Israel has killed. There is no excuse for Hamas killing civilians. While the sin is equal, the scale is not even close.

[BaeStuped]

I get my news from Jon Stewart, but everything he says seems on point.  Hamas sends some rockets blocked by Israel's advanced defense system...and then Israel bombs the shit out of Gaza.  And then people get mobbed by the PC mafia when they express sympathy for the people in Gaza...

[Syntax Error]

I think most people have "sympathy for the people in Gaza".  They just have different perspectives on who is responsible: the government acting in self-defense against indiscriminate attacks on their citizens or the government intentionally provoking the attacks by firing rockets.

 

I think it's absolutely tragic that the Hamas government is using its own citizens as shields for a fruitless attack mainly designed to pump their own egos, feed the bloodlust of their members and try to win sympathy on the world stage by using their own people as pawns.  I don't, however, blame Israel for acting in their own self defense when someone is randomly trying to kill their citizens, no matter how effective each individual attack may be.

 

Keep in mind that the Iron Dome and the security wall had to be designed just to STOP these attacks.  Imagine living where you're so constantly being assaulted by indiscriminate rocket fire and suicide bombers targeting your buses and schools that you need to create these things.  And that STILL doesn't stop the attacks, only now when you try to defend yourself you're supposedly the bad guy because how dare you try and eliminate the guys firing rockets when you have that great defense system.

[Syntax Error]

Self defense doesn't mean being punched by some guy, then shooting him, his family, his neighbors, and killing the doctors at the three closest hospitals.

 

Being fired at with rockets isn't "being punched" and it cheapens the argument to resort to such a pathetic diminishment for what Hamas is doing.

[berzirk]

Not entirely sure how Gazans can fight back from anywhere other than a civilian area.  If you haven't checked recently, Gaza is kinda small:

 

 

 

And regarding comparing a punch in the mouth to Hamas rockets, one of the first pictures that came up in searching for Hamas rocket damage was this:

 

 

 

Search for Israeli strike damage, and you get this:

 

Again, the attacks are so disproportionate, and with such little regard for civilian safety, that I don't care if Hamas is firing rockets while standing on their mother's shoulders, when you have killed 2,000 civilians, regardless of the circumstances, you have fought unjust, evil, and without any regard for human life...and you just so happen to have the unwavering support of my country. There is no excuse, there is no defense. What Israel is doing is murder, not war, and the scale of the attack is unjustifiable.

 

Have you happened to follow any of the Wikileaks stories about how the US was aware all of this was going down quite awhile ago, privy to basically all of the attacks, AND there are legitimate news sources linking the area to good natural gas reserves and US contractors working to get access to it?  Throw in the fact that some Israeli politicians have called for the leveling of Gaza, extermination of Gazans.  They are our fucking ally!!! Hamas is called a terrorist organization.  Which of those two should be held to a higher standard? 

 

So, tell me again how this was all because Hamas kidnapped 3 Israeli teens (that Israel later said Hamas wasn't responsible for)?  Oh, that's right, it was about terror tunnels...that Israel apparently has the exact location of.  Why not flood the tunnels like Egypt did?  Or better yet, prevent the building of them as soon as their location was determined?  Maybe it's about rockets and not the other two excuses Israel already used?  OK, so go in on the ground, fight a fair fight that limits civilian death, and take out the locations of the rocket fire.  I know this SOUNDS insane, but what about infiltrating a UN school and confirming weapons or rockets, rather than bombing them and telling us you're pretty sure there were weapons there.

 

War is hell bro.

[berzirk]

 

Keep in mind that the Iron Dome and the security wall had to be designed just to STOP these attacks.  Imagine living where you're so constantly being assaulted by indiscriminate rocket fire and suicide bombers targeting your buses and schools that you need to create these things.  And that STILL doesn't stop the attacks, only now when you try to defend yourself you're supposedly the bad guy because how dare you try and eliminate the guys firing rockets when you have that great defense system.

Imagine living somewhere for generations, then having the UN tell you that the land you, your parents, and grandparents lived on, was now going to a bunch of Europeans, and you were being evicted.  Then imagine bands of Israeli terrorists (led by Ariel Sharon called the Haganah) who according to Israeli historian:

 

“Sharon’s 
order was to penetrate Qibya, blow up houses and inflict heavy casualties on
its inhabitants. His success in carrying out the order surpassed all expectations.
 The full and macabre story of what happened at Qibya was revealed only during
 the morning after the attack. The village had been reduced to rubble: forty-five
 houses had been blown up, and sixty-nine civilians, two thirds of them women
 and children, had been killed. Sharon and his men claimed that they believed
 that all the inhabitants had run away and that they had no idea that anyone
 was hiding inside the houses.

 

 

“The UN 
observer who inspected the scene reached a different conclusion: ‘One story 
was repeated time after time: the bullet splintered door, the body sprawled
 across the threshold, indicating that the inhabitants had been forced by heavy 
fire to stay inside until their homes were blown up over them.’ The slaughter 
in Qibya was described contemporaneously in a letter to the president of the
 United Nations Security Council dated October 16, 1953…from the Envoy Extraordinary 
and Minister Plenipotentiary of Jordan to the United States. On 14 October 1953 
at 9:30 at night, he wrote, Israeli troops launched a battalion-scale attack
 on the village of Qibya in the Hashemite Kingdom of Jordan (at the time the
 West Bank was annexed to Jordan).

 

“According 
to the diplomat’s account, Israeli forces had entered the village and systematically
 murdered all occupants of houses, using automatic weapons, grenades and incendiaries.
On 14 October, the bodies of 42 Arab civilians had been recovered; several more 
bodies had been still under the wreckage. Forty houses, the village school and
a reservoir had been destroyed. Quantities of unused explosives, bearing Israel
 army markings in Hebrew, had been found in the village. At about 3 a.m., to 
cover their withdrawal, Israeli support troops had begun shelling the neighboring
 villages of Budrus and Shuqba from positions in Israel. The U.S. Department
 of State issued a statement on 18 October 1953, expressing its ‘deepest
 sympathy for the families of those who lost their lives’ in the Qibya attack
as well as the conviction that those responsible ‘should be brought to
 account and that effective measures should be taken to prevent such incidents 
in the future.’”

 

Maybe rather than educate you on history, I'll ask this, did the Palestinians get a raw deal when the UN established a country smack dab in the middle of their population?  Was the US right in literally being the first to officially recognize them, and immediately pledge support?  Are the Palestinians currently living under sub-standard conditions, without the ability to import food, establish a legitimate government, or receive humanitarian aid?

 

I'm just curious on how you view the whole thing.  For me, they have been screwed so many times, and for so long, and with Arab neighbors, Israel, and the US all gangbanging the shit out of them for years, that to be honest, I'm surprised they don't lash out with more violence. 

[Syntax Error]

Not entirely sure how Gazans can fight back from anywhere other than a civilian area.  If you haven't checked recently, Gaza is kinda small

Indeed it is. This would put the onus on Hamas to protect their civilian population if they're going to engage in warfare against Israel.
 

And regarding comparing a punch in the mouth to Hamas rockets, one of the first pictures that came up in searching for Hamas rocket damage was this

That looks a lot more deadly than a "punch in the mouth" to me. Again, it's not a lack of enthusiasm that's keeping Hamas from killing more people, it's a (fortunate) lack of weaponry.

The idea that Israel is "wrong" for using better weapons is absurd. "Put the fighter jets and tanks away, boys. These guys just have rifles so we're only allowed to use rifles to defend ourselves". The goal of Israel is to defend themselves with the least amount of Israeli deaths. This means leveraging superior weaponry just as the US did in Iraq or the NATO forces did in Libya or anyone with half a brain does anywhere. In a better world, this would act as a deterrent to Hamas but that sort of hinges on Hamas giving a shit for the civilians they're killing by subjecting them to counterattacks.
 

OK, so go in on the ground, fight a fair fight that limits civilian death, and take out the locations of the rocket fire

That's a joke, right? Are you demanding that Hamas get all of its soldiers and telling them to line up and duke it out with Israeli infantry? Rather than hiding behind women and firing rockets and running away, leaving the women to take the counter-attack?

Of course not. It's all Big Bad Israel.  They're not fighting "fair" in their attempt to stop indiscriminate rocket attacks.  Boo-fucking-hoo.
 

Imagine living somewhere for generations, then having the UN tell you that the land you, your parents, and grandparents lived on, was now going to a bunch of Europeans, and you were being evicted.

And what, exactly, is Hamas doing to help that situation with this act of warfare and using their civilian population as human shields? I mean, if that's supposed to be the valid rationale, explain to me exactly how it's helping Palestine and what the end game is from it.

[berzirk]

Indeed it is. This would put the onus on Hamas to protect their civilian population if they're going to engage in warfare against Israel.
 

That looks a lot more deadly than a "punch in the mouth" to me. Again, it's not a lack of enthusiasm that's keeping Hamas from killing more people, it's a (fortunate) lack of weaponry.

The idea that Israel is "wrong" for using better weapons is absurd. "Put the fighter jets and tanks away, boys. These guys just have rifles so we're only allowed to use rifles to defend ourselves". The goal of Israel is to defend themselves with the least amount of Israeli deaths. This means leveraging superior weaponry just as the US did in Iraq or the NATO forces did in Libya or anyone with half a brain does anywhere. In a better world, this would act as a deterrent to Hamas but that sort of hinges on Hamas giving a shit for the civilians they're killing by subjecting them to counterattacks.
 

That's a joke, right? Are you demanding that Hamas get all of its soldiers and telling them to line up and duke it out with Israeli infantry? Rather than hiding behind women and firing rockets and running away, leaving the women to take the counter-attack?

Of course not. It's all Big Bad Israel.  They're not fighting "fair" in their attempt to stop indiscriminate rocket attacks.  Boo-fucking-hoo.
 

And what, exactly, is Hamas doing to help that situation with this act of warfare and using their civilian population as human shields? I mean, if that's supposed to be the valid rationale, explain to me exactly how it's helping Palestine and what the end game is from it.

It's the same reason I'm so disgusted with the US' drone program. It's some asshat playing remote control plane, and bombing intelligence targets that may or may not be littered with innocent people.  If you're on the ground, have visual on the enemy, and can kill a much higher percentage of bad guys, you know, like more than 25%, then a responsible, Western backed military should do that.

 

The goal shouldn't be to kill as many of the other guys as you can while taking minimal losses. It should be to take out the bad guys with minimal loss of life...for both sides. Otherwise we'd drop nukes everywhere we go since it's the quickest way to flatten a warzone. We don't, because we acknowledge the mass killing of innocents that it causes.

 

So yes, I am saying that by having to look into the eyes of a family before deciding if you should murder them, a ground offensive is more efficient in eliminating bad guys, and not murdering kids.  That's just a fact.

 

And this human shield bullshit is such a pathetic, tired talking point that is intellectually dishonest.  So you're telling me that if a gunman is shooting at police from the middle of a crowded mall, surrounded by patrons, that any responsible officer should open fire without any regard for the surroundings?  Should they lob a grenade into the middle of the crowd?  "Hey, we killed the shooter!!  I mean, those 25 shoppers had to die too because they were human shields, but we got us a baddie"

 

THIS is why I say go in on the ground, so you're not killing 4:1 civilians vs. so-called terrorists.

 

Killing 4:1 civilians to enemies is not acceptable anywhere else in the world, so why do you think it's OK to do it when Israel and Palestine is involved? 4:1 killed, mainly by airstrikes, 500,000 left homeless, in an area smaller than Rhode Island.

 

If only there were generally accepted and trusted conventions in place for treatment in a time of war, and as a member of the international community.  Hell, they could name it Gene, or Eva.  You know what, let's be more inclusive, let's just call it the Geneva Convention: http://itisapartheid...nationalLaw.pdf

http://news.bbc.co.u...ast/1682640.stm

 

(Don't worry, I know you won't read either one, it basically speaks on the Geneva Convention points that Israel violates)

 

So my last question to you: Would it be acceptable to you if someone was shooting bullets from the middle of a crowded civilian area, and to neutralize the threat, law enforcement, soldiers, whoever, threw a grenade into the middle of the crowd, or shot into it until they kill the bad guy along with several innocent bystanders? Simple question, direct comparison to what is happening in Gaza. If you think it's justified to kill a whole bunch of people to get to one, then I understand your position better and would chalk it up to being morally opposed to it. If you don't think it's OK to shoot into a crowd at a mall to kill a gunman, then I have to assume bigotry, xenophobia, bloodlust, or just an argumentative nature for your support of what Israel is doing, because there is no logical, ethical, rational excuse.

[Syntax Error]

It's not a direct comparison.  Law enforcement and bullets are different from military and rockets.  I really don't get the continual need to change the argument to into something else, "bullets", "punches", "bank robbers", etc.  Just call it for exactly what it is...
 
For a real direct comparison: If someone was sitting on an apartment building over the border and using it as a staging area to fire rockets at my town while I was trying to live my life, go to work, drop the kids off at school, etc, I'd have zero issue with the military using a missile to level said apartment building regardless of how many rockets were intercepted by a defense system.  To be honest, you almost certainly would be fine with it as well if it was your town.

 

On the flip side, if the local government came to your house, sat down on your roof, fired off rockets over the border at some random town and then said "sucks to be you!" and ran off before your house was leveled by a missile strike, whose fault would it be that your house was blown up?  Oh yeah, but the whole human shield thing is "bullshit" because that's a lot easier than addressing the fact that this is exactly what's happening.

 

I'd have a lot easier time swallowing all the anti-Israel crap if the people spewing it put even a third as much effort into admitting what Hamas was doing and how fucked up and monstrous it is.  instead, the best you get is the occasional handwaved "Well, I'm not defending them but let's spend another ten paragraphs bitching about Israel..."

[BaeStuped]

I always think it's funny the ways people find to justify killing innocent civilians.  

 

Israel knows exactly what is going on.  They know the areas they are bombing are going to cause civilian casualties.  They know Hamas tactics and they know Hamas isn't going to back down. Yet, they continue to murder civilians knowing it is not going to make any difference.  In fact, it has the opposite effect, it incites people to become anti-Israel when they see all the senseless destruction.

 

Hamas may be using women and civilians as shields, but when Israel knows that and still chooses to kill those women and civilians knowing they are innocent, it is murder.  A small minority of the population attacking you doesn't justify the murder of 1000s of innocent civilians.  

 

Pretending the civilians in Gaza have any sort of say in what Hamas does is just putting on blinders to try to downplay the atrocities over there.  

[Syntax Error]

I always think it's funny the ways people find to justify killing innocent civilians. 

 

Usually they start with phrases like "It's just like throwing rocks!" and "It's only like throwing punches!".  Then they blame the other side for defending themselves against the guys trying their damnest to kill innocent civilians.

[BaeStuped]

Usually they start with phrases like "It's just like throwing rocks!" and "It's only like throwing punches!".  Then they blame the other side for defending themselves against the guys trying their damnest to kill innocent civilians.

If someone tries to shoot and kill me and I react by shooting into a crowd of people standing near them, I'm not defending myself.  It's obvious you are very pro-Israel and have probably been spoon fed the pro-Israel agenda all your life, so it's no surprise you make illogical arguments to justify murder.  I'm not defending Hamas.  I won't even get into the reason there's a country named Israel and the very justifiable reason there is resentment towards them.  The facts are that since this latest flare up, deaths of Palestinian civilians are in the 1000s and deaths of Israeli civilians can be counted on two hands.  

[Syntax Error]

If someone tries to shoot and kill me and I react by shooting into a crowd of people standing near them, I'm not defending myself.

Again, it's not "myself" and "yourself". These are not singulars. The government of Gaza, a bunch of guys called Hamas who were elected by the people of the region are waging a war against the nation of Israel. Israel is attempting to stop this in an effort to defend its citizens. It's not a guy with a pistol in a mall or a guy throwing rocks or a guy yelling at a dog or whatever other asinine comparisons people need to make to diminish the fact that the government of Gaza is waging a war against Israel.  It's not some random thugs or terrorists or extremists or criminals or a singular madman, it's the elected government there waging a war.  It is appropriate for a nation to defend itself when attacked by another government.  You want the civilian deaths to stop?  Place your view on the government which is perpetrating the war by indiscriminately attacking Israel with explosive rockets.
 

It's obvious you are very pro-Israel and have probably been spoon fed the pro-Israel agenda all your life

 
Yeah, that's it.  "You have a different opinion than me so... indoctrination!  All free minded people think like me!!"

[GBAstar]

but... peaceful religion... is peaceful?

[BaeStuped]

Again, it's not "myself" and "yourself". These are not singulars. The government of Gaza, a bunch of guys called Hamas who were elected by the people of the region are waging a war against the nation of Israel. Israel is attempting to stop this in an effort to defend its citizens. It's not a guy with a pistol in a mall or a guy throwing rocks or a guy yelling at a dog or whatever other asinine comparisons people need to make to diminish the fact that the government of Gaza is waging a war against Israel.  It's not some random thugs or terrorists or extremists or criminals or a singular madman, it's the elected government there waging a war.  It is appropriate for a nation to defend itself when attacked by another government.  You want the civilian deaths to stop?  Place your view on the government which is perpetrating the war by indiscriminately attacking Israel with explosive rockets.
 

 
Yeah, that's it.  "You have a different opinion than me so... indoctrination!  All free minded people think like me!!"

It's not the elected government members doing all this or ordering this.  Do you even read up on any of this before you spew this stuff?

 

Hamas IS considered a terrorist organization by many countries.  It did win Parliament, but that doesn't mean the entire country agrees with them.  Obama is our president, but plenty of people make it clear they don't agree with his policies and they didn't vote for him.  The kidnapping that sparked all this is suspected to be the work of Hamas members, but:

 

1.  Israel hasn't been able to produce any PROOF that this is the case.

2.  Do the actions of political party members suddenly become "official government actions" in your eyes?

 

That's ridiculous.  Just because someone is a member of a political party doesn't turn their actions into "government actions."  Do you choose to ignore the fact that even if Palestinians wanted Hamas to stop doing what they are doing there's nothing they can do?  I certainly don't dictate US foreign policy even though I voted for the party in power.  

 

Whatever helps you sleep at night.  Murder is murder.  What Hamas does is murder and is wrong.  What the Israeli government is doing is murder and equally wrong.  I just choose to view everything through the same lens.  

[Syntax Error]

It's not the elected government members doing all this or ordering this.  Do you even read up on any of this before you spew this stuff?

 
Hamas is the leading government in Gaza.  They share in a unity government over Palestine as a whole (with Fatah controlling the West Bank) but the Hamas-led government still controls Gaza.
 
Whether or not everyone agrees with Hamas in Gaza is as irrelevant as saying "Oh, it's just some US soldiers, not America!" if we were to start indiscriminately bombing some other nation.  That said, there's supposed to be elections this year so I guess we'll see how much they support or don't support Hamas.

 

Do the actions of political party members suddenly become "official government actions" in your eyes?

Are you joking?  This isn't some random rogue legislator running around or something.  These are agents being funded, provided for, armed and under the umbrella of the ruling Hamas government.  They're funding tunnels with tax money and then using those tunnels to levy other taxes which they use to buy the rockets they're attacking Israel with.  How on earth is that NOT a government action?  They couldn't possibly be any MORE involved.

 

People want to ignore the role Hamas plays as the government in Gaza because it lets them say "Oh, those Israelis are blowing up buildings because of some terrorists!"  They're not.  They're blowing up buildings because men funded by, armed by and loyal to the government in Gaza are waging war on Israel from those buildings with the Hamas government's aid and support.  But that doesn't sound as bad as "Blowing up a city just like trying to kill one guy in a shopping mall".

 

That said, we could go in circles here forever so I'm bowing out on this barring some major event to change the conversation.

[RPGNinja]

Fine, Israel should admit they are as much of a FREELY elected terrorist organization as the same FREELY elected terrorist organization in Palestine.
 
So I murder your children and you come by and murder a couple additional children of mine and then you get to sit on your chair and say you are the good guy?  All there is are just monsters except one of them won't admit as much
 
Thats as much as those Southern bible thumpers who say God freed the slaves all the while having their black man pick their cotton, while getting whipped and going home to have a black women cook their supper while they rape her at night

Just because you got caught looking dumb doesn't mean you can back out and try to include Israel along with Hamas' terrorist activities. Nowhere does Israel call for the destruction of another race or state like Hamas does. They also believe that anyone who doesn't agree with their religious philosophy should be punished with death if you leave them.

Israel has no such claims because they are reasonable people. Stop pretending to be mad when Israel is defending itself from Hamas rockets. If Hamas is mad about being attacked with superior firepower THEN STOP ATTACKING ISRAEL. Doesn't get anymore simple than that.

But at this point I would love for Israel to step on their throat and wipe them out for good. Who cares if someone ends up "replacing" Hamas. They need to be sent a message.

[RPGNinja]

but... peaceful religion... is peaceful?

Seriously I never want to hear anybody say Islam is peaceful again. The same people who say that are the same ones who believe "moderate Muslims" exist and that Hamas is right no matter what.