Is Flipping Wrong?

rocket6682

rocket6682

CAG Veteran
Before i am reamed for my grammer or any other multiple things let me put before you CAGs a issue. I have been reading the forums and no matter what flipping always gets brought up into it and thier is a gaint debate on the morals of it. i propose that we keep any and all of these arguments out of the forums and respond to them here. I think of flipping as the buying of a game with only the intent to trade it in and trading it in to the same place it was bought. Do i think this wrong? NO, although not morrally sound thier is nothing wrong with it. People who believe it is wrong go upon very little evidence to prove that it is. After all what is wrong with just buying a game and trading it in, everyone has done that, some to even the same place. The period it is owned for is what decides if it flipping or not. Now lets have a good clean argument and let the tearing apart of this statement and people begin.
 
I think it is wrong just because you are hurting the stores that provide you with good deals year round. People who rack up credit on this are just bitches.
 
[quote name='bil4ltool']Of course!!! Not only is it wrong, it's illegal.[/QUOTE]

Uhhh.. it's illegal to buy something then sell it? What is this, Russia? If you're referring to the Wal-Mart scam, then yeah, that's illegal

I don't think there's anything wrong at all with buying something to turn around and trade it in. I've done it. But I always make sure to play within the law (I don't do the Wal-Mart scam), and I always leave at least one of whatever i'm getting for someone else. I don't hoard.
 
Yes Scorch I was referring to Wal Mart scam, which is flipping. Buying it for $13 then trading it in for $50 in store credit.
 
Flipping saves me money... And i love anything that makes/saves me money. It's not illegal you moron. It might violate some of the stores trade policies technically, but I always side with the PEOPLE over Corporate scum.
 
Depends. I bought .hack3 earlier this year from CC and PSP-Sp2 from KB, both for $10. Traded them to Rhino for a brand new game last week. Is this flipping? Technically, yes. But I don't consider that wrong.

I don't even neccessarily look down upon getting a deal for a game and trading it right away to somewhere else for more credit.

What I do look down upon severely is the Wal-mart scam, or buying 10 of a title to trade in and denying others the chance to play it.
 
[quote name='bil4ltool']Yes Scorch I was referring to Wal Mart scam, which is flipping. Buying it for $13 then trading it in for $50 in store credit.[/QUOTE]

Yes, but that's only part of the definition. I could buy a game for 50 cents at a yard sale and trade it in at a GameCrazy for $5 in store credit and it'd still be flipping. Now if I bought a game that EB had on sale for $9.99 then return it to Wal-Mart for $50 in store credit, yeah, that's illegal.

Depends. I bought .hack3 earlier this year from CC and PSP-Sp2 from KB, both for $10. Traded them to Rhino for a brand new game last week. Is this flipping? Technically, yes. But I don't consider that wrong.
Click to expand...

Now see? That's legal and something I do ^^. I picked up Punisher for $10 and traded it in a 2 for 1 when Rhino was still giving $10+ in credit for it.
 
[quote name='rocket6682']You can not just post something with out Proof to back up your statement bil4ltool[/QUOTE]


What he is referring to (scamming Wal-mart) is widely considered to be fraud.
 
The flipping I was referring to was the Wal Mart scam, I have nothing against buying something and selling it somewhere else for a large profit, but the Wal Mart scam is most definitely illegal. Someone has posted proof before, but I don't know where to dig it up.
 
people wonder why stores give so little in credit, flipping is directly related to it. when gamestop and eb have to take in 1000 copies of ford truck racing, you can damn well bet they arent going to sell all of those, they have to make it up in other places. so when you trade in call of duty 2 for 20 bucks, you know why now.
 
[quote name='Kastides']Flipping saves me money... And i love anything that makes/saves me money. It's not illegal you moron. It might violate some of the stores trade policies technically, but I always side with the PEOPLE over Corporate scum.[/QUOTE]

No, you side with yourself.

And that's fine if that's your thing, but don't pretend to pull this anti-authority anti-corporate down-with-the-establishment bullshit. You just want cheap video games, that's hardly "siding with the people." And that's what I want too - I just have no illusions about it.

Stop feeing so self-important. Everyone here is just a nerd with a hardon for cheap video games.
 
Wal-Mart Scam? I wouldn't call it scam: other "normal" customers scam Wal-Mart a lot more than "flippers" do. Check the customer service office everyday at any Wal-Mart, you'll see ladies bringing back used bras, used underwear, used shoes, also, lots of bed/bath items or even make up. No one calls them out, even though they're not only 'scamming" Wal-Mart but creating lots of health hazards, especially with the lingerie and make up.

Considering the price that Wal-Mart pays for game through their vendors, the price they sell for worldwide, and what they do with returns, they're making as much as a profit as you are. If you buy a X-Men Legends II for $29.99, return it for $49.99, what really happens?

A. Wal-Mart shelves it, sells it, and makes profit without even having bought that unit.

B. Wal-Mart returns it as defective, receives a full credit for what they refunded you.

C. Wal-Mart sells it overseas or across the border, for a higher price: video games in Canada and Mexico are -much- more expensive, especially new releases.

D. Wal-Mart lost a little, but you did use the credit to buy from them, broke even, and maybe you bought some merchandise out of your own pocket while you were there.

The Blockbuster scam though? It's purely legal. They offer trade in credit for games. If a little boy or girl bought a copy of Finny The Fish or whatever those games used for the scam were, and then by accident her uncle got her one, and she took it in to Blockbuster with her mom, and got $50 credit, it's not a scam: it's perfectly legal. What's the difference between an individual legally obtaining 20 copies of the said game, then going to Blockbuster and doing the same? Trade limit per day? If he honors that limit, each day he can do it again and again.

Unless you stole the games, and then flipped them to obtain something legally, it's not wrong. Theft is wrong, working around the system while still working WITH THE SYSTEM isn't.

These scams are pointless though, low price guarantee at Fry's, now that's a way to make some money. In the past month, I've price matched them on their OWN prices, gotten refunds based on competitor advertisment, qualified for mail in rebates out of time of purchase, etc. Look at the Fry's ad every time it comes out: Sunday, Wednesday, Friday, Saturday. Look at the other ads. Track every item you purchase for 30 days. I promise you, you'll be breaking even, getting 50% off, or getting it free after enough work.
 
And I don't do it for video games, the less I can spend on video games, the more I can spend on fashion = D

clothesareagirlsbestfriend.

I like video games too though.

If you like being the CA part of CAG though, getting clothes discounted is incredible fun. $25 off $40 coupons at Fashion Bug, 75% off Torrid, and Dillard's clearances. Four pairs of jeans for the price of one, yayies! And Ross is like a black friday sale for discontinued designer clothing every day of the week.
 
it's just taking advantage of stores based what services they provide the customer. there is nothing wrong about legally buying something, then legally trading it in elsewhere for more money.

Stores take advantage of customers this way by having us trade stuff in for less than we paid, there's no reason why we can't turn the tables. Free market, biatches. Companies can change their prices and policies if they want, but if they don't, you're free to use it in any way you want. Some cry that it's not fair to the stores, well, fuck them-- if flipping games for more money isn't "fair" then buying wholesale and selling it for more money isn't "fair." I'm not about to submit to the system when I can legally thrive off of it.

that said, i do it occasionally, but most of the time it isn't worth it, since I don't have a gamerush or rhino or anything that gives good credit around me.
 
I am surprised by the response so far because whenever this debate it brought up you see alot more people speaking out right against flipping but the fact is thier is nothing wrong with it and i lay down a personal chellenge for some one to prove other wise
 
[quote name='sarausagi']

A. Wal-Mart shelves it, sells it, and makes profit without even having bought that unit.

B. Wal-Mart returns it as defective, receives a full credit for what they refunded you.

[/QUOTE]

That's not correct. If it was unopened (which it has to be to get a refund) then they aren't returning it. They are selling it.

You may think they are making a profit, but they aren't. There isn't much margin in the video game industry. At best, they break even on that one transaction, perhaps make a buck. Really all they are doing is removing one game from inventory and replacing it with another. I call it a scam because it's unethical. May be not illegal, but sure as hell unethical.
 
THE WALMART SCAM IS ILLEGAL IN CERTAIN STATES. But buying something for cheap and then selling it for a profit is definitely legal and legitimate. what do you think day traders do on the stock market? they buy stock for cheap in the morning and sell em when they go up in the afternoon. they make a living by "flipping". the same with big stores. they buy it cheap and sell to you for a profit. thats capitalism.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']That's not correct. If it was unopened (which it has to be to get a refund) then they aren't returning it. They are selling it.

You may think they are making a profit, but they aren't. There isn't much margin in the video game industry. At best, they break even on that one transaction, perhaps make a buck. Really all they are doing is removing one game from inventory and replacing it with another. I call it a scam because it's unethical. May be not illegal, but sure as hell unethical.[/QUOTE]

What if you don't buy a game though? I buy a new release DVD, a small electronic, and some Gatorade, Dr.Pepper, and Orange Juice, a bottle of shampoo, a bottle of conditioner, etc. My friend's father runs a restaurant, he buys 12 packs of Dr.Pepper products for $1.05 each, gallons of orange juice [not concentrate] cost him $1.50. There's a dollar store nearby that buys thousands of units of Pantene Pro V, can sell them for a DOLLAR each, and make a huge profit. You think Wal-Mart doesn't know what they're doing? EB Games/Gamestop wouldn't be around if the profit on new video games wasn't good, they certainly couldn't afford to slash new copies and sell them as used if that wasn't true.
 
[quote name='sarausagi']Considering the price that Wal-Mart pays for game through their vendors, the price they sell for worldwide, and what they do with returns, they're making as much as a profit as you are. If you buy a X-Men Legends II for $29.99, return it for $49.99, what really happens?

A. Wal-Mart shelves it, sells it, and makes profit without even having bought that unit. [/QUOTE]

Where is this profit you speak of? They give you $50 for it and sell it for $50 (if they are lucky). Plus they have to take up shelf space and have a person put it back there. Definitely no profit there.
 
[quote name='The Truth 34']Where is this profit you speak of? They give you $50 for it and sell it for $50 (if they are lucky). Plus they have to take up shelf space and have a person put it back there. Definitely no profit there.[/QUOTE]

And don't forget if the next buyer uses a credit card they lose a few extra percent.
 
[quote name='sarausagi']You think Wal-Mart doesn't know what they're doing? EB Games/Gamestop wouldn't be around if the profit on new video games wasn't good, they certainly couldn't afford to slash new copies and sell them as used if that wasn't true.[/QUOTE]

How much are plane tickets to fantasyland these days?

EB/GS make their profit on used games. When I worked at Blockbuster, new games only had a profit of 10%, tops. Used games and DVDs, however, represented anywhere from 75%-88% gross profit.

I can't speak for anyone else, but when I return a game, it's for another game. Not haircare products or Little Debbies.

I've never seen them slash new games and sell them as used, either. They might very well do it, but if you are talking about the display copies, those still sell as new.
 
[quote name='The Truth 34']Where is this profit you speak of? They give you $50 for it and sell it for $50 (if they are lucky). Plus they have to take up shelf space and have a person put it back there. Definitely no profit there.[/QUOTE]

the profit comes from when the person uses that credit. Not everyone returns a game to buy a game. Walmart sells a lot more than games. Also by getting that customer in the store to use the credit, they will most likely also pick up other things and spend more money than the original 50 dollar credit. To the person asking if they give cash, they don't. It's all credit.

Flipping in itself is all unethical, not illegal. Returning to Walmart also is unethical, not illegal. With both, you work the system within the system; thus not breaking any laws. Also with both, a name is attach to all those transactions. With flipping, they could have a database with what has been traded in and deny you credit. I have heard in the past people having their blockbuster accounts froze. With Walmart, they ask for your license and allow 3 returns within a 6 month period (if I remember correctly). Walmart put that in place to stop from people making a living off returning and still allow customers to return something without a receipt.
 
I have no problem with people flipping. I don't do it because it's too much of a hassle. I actually will trade in games if I happen to buy/own two copies of the game and finish it. If I make money off of it because I got it from CAG then that's great but I don't mean to do it intentionally.
 
[quote name='CocheseUGA']Depends. I bought .hack3 earlier this year from CC and PSP-Sp2 from KB, both for $10. Traded them to Rhino for a brand new game last week. Is this flipping? Technically, yes. But I don't consider that wrong.

I don't even neccessarily look down upon getting a deal for a game and trading it right away to somewhere else for more credit.[/QUOTE]


I do this all the time, and honestly don't even remotely see how someone could see anything wrong with this. Where is it wrong? That I traded a game I didn't actually play? Or that I traded a game that I didn't lose money on?

I reguarly buy games specifically to trade into my Rhino. And you know what I've noticed?

A) The employees do the same thing. I've overheard discussions where they were talking about upcoming CC sales as ways to get qualifying games cheap.

B) Every other customer that's traded something in while I was in the store has NOT taken advantage of their deals. Using your head and taking advantage of promotions is not a wide-spread activity. Usually, I see these people giving away their games - trading a qualifying game by itself, or trading in a bunch of non-qualifying games for little or nothing.

If these trade-in deals were losing the store money, they would stop them. The fact is, they get 2 games in brand-new condition that they sell for $25 (at least)/ea.
 
Definition of Fraud

All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.

Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979

if you flip w/ in the guide lines (ie you buy for cheaper than lets say a trade in price, than it is legit, you are not breaking anything above, but if you buy cheap and tell walmart (kmart, target, whoever) that you lost the reciept, yada, yada, yada then by law dictionary (and in an extreme circumstance) you could be charged w/ fraud!
 
I don't think there's anything wrong at all with buying something to turn around and trade it in. I've done it. But I always make sure to play within the law (I don't do the Wal-Mart scam), and I always leave at least one of whatever i'm getting for someone else. I don't hoard.
Click to expand...

Can't say it any better.
 
[quote name='freestyledust77']Definition of Fraud

All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.

Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979

if you flip w/ in the guide lines (ie you buy for cheaper than lets say a trade in price, than it is legit, you are not breaking anything above, but if you buy cheap and tell walmart (kmart, target, whoever) that you lost the reciept, yada, yada, yada then by law dictionary (and in an extreme circumstance) you could be charged w/ fraud![/QUOTE]


And for anybody who needs it spelled out more, Refund Fraud, defined:
http://crimeprevention.rutgers.edu/crime/refundfraud/refundfraud.htm

Anybody who wants to keep arguing, make sure you've read qualifier 3 on that list...
 
I don't find it unethical, unless its done to small family or community stores since any loss or slow moving stock has a greater effect. When you get to a store like walmart then I don't care in the least, especially with all the sexism, discrimination suits etc. filed against them. It's like punching someone after they punched 5 other people in the room, even if they didn't hit you its not like they don't deserve it.

Now, other than stores like walmart, I would say it is unethical to buy it from them and knowingly return it to them for a higher price (doesn't count if you didn't realize this until you recieved the refund, or if you bought it and genuinely lost the receipt). I would also say its unethical to return it to a store that you didn't buy it from for profit, knowing they will sell it for less than they gave you in credit (such as christmas lights 10 minutes before closing on christmas eve), again though places like walmart excluded.
 
If people want to run arbitrage on squeezing profits out of inconsistencies in market prices, there are easier and more lucrative avenues than new and used video games. If people want to take advantadge of a store's return policy, the trouble is that store may then change their policy so that it negatively affects everyone. You're shitting where you and the rest of us eat.

So maybe it does not violate your own personal code of conduct and maybe the store has taken no measures to forbid it, but you would not treat a friend that way. As I see it, it is a dick move to this community, especially a situation like the circuit city sale. Are we gamers or profiteers? I'd rather somebody get a good game for cheap, play the hell out of that game and maybe take a chance on a similar game next time (see: BG&E), then some clown scoop up that same $5 game because they know they can trade it in at store x or ebay it for some chumpchange.

Is it black and white? Not hardly, but flipping is purely selfish, and you have to realize no one else, especially other gamers, stands to benefit from your actions.
 
The problem that arises with flipping is hoarding. People buy up all the cheap games just to trade them in somewhere else that will price them more expensive. What about the people who wanted one of those cheap games on the cheap? You just screwed them out of it because you hoarded to flip. You're taking games from people who may actually want to play them instead of using them for a profit. That's the problem I see with flipping.
 
[quote name='rocket6682']I am surprised by the response so far because whenever this debate it brought up you see alot more people speaking out right against flipping but the fact is thier is nothing wrong with it and i lay down a personal chellenge for some one to prove other wise[/QUOTE]

I lay down a personal challenge to you to prove to me that murder is wrong.

You can't take a case of subjective morality and apply yours to every argument against it.
 
[quote name='rocket6682']You can not just post something with out Proof to back up your statement bil4ltool[/QUOTE]

Here you go.

Title 17-A Maine Criminal code, Chapter 15: Theft.
§354. Theft by deception

1. A person is guilty of theft if:


A. The person obtains or exercises control over property of another as a result of deception and with intent to deprive the other person of the property. Violation of this paragraph is a Class E crime; or [font=courier, fixed] [2001, c. 383, §34 (new); §156 (aff).][/font]


In this case, you are misrepresenting your purchase of the game, with the sole intent of depriving the Walmart Corporation of property (cash or product).
​
 
I think the key is when you tell the customer service agent at Wal-Mart that you lost the receipt. Flipping isn't wrong as long as you do it withing the letter of the law. Buying 10 dollar games at Best Buy or whereever and flipping them on EBay for $20 isn't wrong, it's what makes America great. Buying a $10 game at Best Buy and lying to to Wal-Mart to get 50 bucks for the game is fraud. This situation is pretty black and white even though people would like to get morals involved in this.


It's a great time to be a cheap ass gamer.
 
[quote name='AngellicLulu']The problem that arises with flipping is hoarding. People buy up all the cheap games just to trade them in somewhere else that will price them more expensive. What about the people who wanted one of those cheap games on the cheap? You just screwed them out of it because you hoarded to flip. You're taking games from people who may actually want to play them instead of using them for a profit. That's the problem I see with flipping.[/QUOTE]

That's capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Do you see diamond miners stop mining early because there might be other people who want to find diamonds without paying a markup? Do you know of any instance where someone found an oil well but only took enough for their own use?

Perhaps we should rename the site Communist Ass Gamer and send "community enforcers" to buy up all the cheap games everywhere. Then we can all stand in really long lines for each game in hopes that they're not all gone by the time we get to the front of the line. Is that fair enough?
 
Anyone who sees flipping as ilegal or not moral is a COMPLETE idiot. It's called taking advtage of the system, walmart has plenty of other shit to worry about than little Joey buying a game and returing it for more money, they are a multi million dollar company, they have nothing to lose. I have flipped over 2000$ store credit at blockbuster and even the manager thinks it's a good idea. Get over it and stop trying to justify flipping as being ilegal. After all, this is CHEAP ass gamers, were all here to save money and NOT help walmart or blockbuster make more.
 
[quote name='AlanSaysYo']That's capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Do you see diamond miners stop mining early because there might be other people who want to find diamonds without paying a markup? Do you know of any instance where someone found an oil well but only took enough for their own use?

Perhaps we should rename the site Communist Ass Gamer and send "community enforcers" to buy up all the cheap games everywhere. Then we can all stand in really long lines for each game in hopes that they're not all gone by the time we get to the front of the line. Is that fair enough?[/QUOTE]

You see, Alan, there are these people who actually have this thing called empathy.
They have a deep caring for the feelings and well being of others, and thus find actions that are purely self-centered to be distasteful.

By arguing in subjective terms, this entire argument becomes cyclical.

Comparing diamond miners to hoarders this situation is not apt.

1. If diamond miners stopped sooner, thier product would be more rare, and thus capable of demanding a higher price.

2. For profit ventures don't have thier geological studies for them gratis.

Information is just as valuable a commodity as a product.
When people are being kind and sharing thier information, which they could
have used for only their own profit, they don't like hearing some greedy person
talking about how they hoarded all of the things on sale, and then flipped them.
With no meeting of the minds, and the people providing deals reaping nothing
but ingratitude from selfish people trying to finance their entire habit off of the
knowldege of others, you'll be certain to see some discontent.
 
[quote name='JSweeney']Here you go.

Title 17-A Maine Criminal code, Chapter 15: Theft.
§354. Theft by deception

1. A person is guilty of theft if:


A. The person obtains or exercises control over property of another as a result of deception and with intent to deprive the other person of the property. Violation of this paragraph is a Class E crime; or [font=courier, fixed] [2001, c. 383, §34 (new); §156 (aff).][/font]


In this case, you are misrepresenting your purchase of the game, with the sole intent of depriving the Walmart Corporation of property (cash or product).
​
[/QUOTE]
thats an interesting interpretation. i still dont think it qualifies as theft.
 
[quote name='unbroken']Anyone who sees flipping as ilegal or not moral is a COMPLETE idiot. It's called taking advtage of the system, walmart has plenty of other shit to worry about than little Joey buying a game and returing it for more money, they are a multi million dollar company, they have nothing to lose. I have flipped over 2000$ store credit at blockbuster and even the manager thinks it's a good idea. Get over it and stop trying to justify flipping as being ilegal. After all, this is CHEAP ass gamers, were all here to save money and NOT help walmart or blockbuster make more.[/QUOTE]

Anyone thinks scamming walmart is legal is ignorant of the state laws in many jurisdictions. Maine, for instance.

Cheapassgamer does not equal selfish ass bastard. You can go to fatwallet if that kind of thing is your bag.
 
I think there are arguments going for two separate flipping things: returns & trade ins. The trade-in stuff... I can see how that's up for debate. But I don't see how return frauds are ever justified. The whole point of returns is to get your money back from the store they amount they already took from you... you should be at the same point money-wise before your purchase and after your return. Returns are not meant for profiting.

And I really don't see how it's relevant whether store is Walmart, Best Buy, or a mom and pop shop. Just because you don't believe in a company's corporate structure and policies doesn't make it right to break the law in their store. It's not okay to steal or commit fraud in ANY store. I'm not going to pocket candies from Walmart because they can afford it or because they pay less than minimal wage or whatever.
 
[quote name='judyjudyjudy']And I really don't see how it's relevant whether store is Walmart, Best Buy, or a mom and pop shop. Just because you don't believe in a company's corporate structure and policies doesn't make it right to break the law in their store. It's not okay to steal or commit fraud in ANY store. I'm not going to pocket candies from Walmart because they can afford it or because they pay less than minimal wage or whatever.[/QUOTE]

Man, I fuckin' *hate* to defend WM here, but you're totally right. I'd rather just not fucking shop there. Flipping a copy of Primal there ain't gonna bring down the corporate behemoth, it's just going to put me ahead one game.

That having been said, there is plenty of room for debate on flipping in the sense of "buy low, sell high" in regards to trading in titles. I don't do it myself, but I don't really have the patience or fortitude (or time) for all that flipping bullshit. I'll just wait until a title I'm looking for drops in price (like $10 Chaos Theory!); in the end, though, it's a personal matter. I wouldn't mind one good goddamned bit, however, if stores like EB and GS kept individualized accounts that prohibited trading in more than one or two copies of the same game in a 6 month period. Can that be circumvented? Certainly. But if it makes it a bigger pain in the ass and a deterrent to asshole haorders, then power to the people. The stores ought to consider it; after all, who the fuck's gonna buy Black and Bruised, except for the whisky drunk and surly?

OTOH, the illegality of the Wal-Mart scam has been repeated over and over. SOME OF YOU MAY DO IT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT LEGAL. Please keep that in mind when defending it. If you think it's legal, try this: try buying Game A for a low low price at store A; then, try returning that game at WM for full store credit WITHOUT LYING ABOUT THE GAME'S ORIGINS. If you can get away with it without lying, congratulations! You're not breaking the law. If you insinuate, knowingly, that the game CAME FROM WAL-MART ORIGINALLY, then you are a liar and thus guilty of fraud.
 
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