[argyle]

Depends. I bought .hack3 earlier this year from CC and PSP-Sp2 from KB, both for $10. Traded them to Rhino for a brand new game last week. Is this flipping? Technically, yes. But I don't consider that wrong.

I don't even neccessarily look down upon getting a deal for a game and trading it right away to somewhere else for more credit.

I do this all the time, and honestly don't even remotely see how someone could see anything wrong with this. Where is it wrong? That I traded a game I didn't actually play? Or that I traded a game that I didn't lose money on?

I reguarly buy games specifically to trade into my Rhino. And you know what I've noticed?

A) The employees do the same thing. I've overheard discussions where they were talking about upcoming CC sales as ways to get qualifying games cheap.

B) Every other customer that's traded something in while I was in the store has NOT taken advantage of their deals. Using your head and taking advantage of promotions is not a wide-spread activity. Usually, I see these people giving away their games - trading a qualifying game by itself, or trading in a bunch of non-qualifying games for little or nothing.

If these trade-in deals were losing the store money, they would stop them. The fact is, they get 2 games in brand-new condition that they sell for $25 (at least)/ea.

[freestyledust77]

Definition of Fraud

All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.

Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979

if you flip w/ in the guide lines (ie you buy for cheaper than lets say a trade in price, than it is legit, you are not breaking anything above, but if you buy cheap and tell walmart (kmart, target, whoever) that you lost the reciept, yada, yada, yada then by law dictionary (and in an extreme circumstance) you could be charged w/ fraud!

[Drensch]

I don't think there's anything wrong at all with buying something to turn around and trade it in. I've done it. But I always make sure to play within the law (I don't do the Wal-Mart scam), and I always leave at least one of whatever i'm getting for someone else. I don't hoard.

Can't say it any better.

[poe]

Definition of Fraud

All multifarious means which human ingenuity can devise, and which are resorted to by one individual to get an advantage over another by false suggestions or suppression of the truth. It includes all surprises, tricks, cunning or dissembling, and any unfair way which another is cheated.

Source: Black’s Law Dictionary, 5th ed., by Henry Campbell Black, West Publishing Co., St. Paul, Minnesota, 1979

if you flip w/ in the guide lines (ie you buy for cheaper than lets say a trade in price, than it is legit, you are not breaking anything above, but if you buy cheap and tell walmart (kmart, target, whoever) that you lost the reciept, yada, yada, yada then by law dictionary (and in an extreme circumstance) you could be charged w/ fraud!

And for anybody who needs it spelled out more, Refund Fraud, defined:
http://crimepreventi...refundfraud.htm

Anybody who wants to keep arguing, make sure you've read qualifier 3 on that list...

[paz9x]

Like ninjas

thats fucking great, i choked when the music started, thanks holmes

[alonzomourning23]

I don't find it unethical, unless its done to small family or community stores since any loss or slow moving stock has a greater effect. When you get to a store like walmart then I don't care in the least, especially with all the sexism, discrimination suits etc. filed against them. It's like punching someone after they punched 5 other people in the room, even if they didn't hit you its not like they don't deserve it.

Now, other than stores like walmart, I would say it is unethical to buy it from them and knowingly return it to them for a higher price (doesn't count if you didn't realize this until you recieved the refund, or if you bought it and genuinely lost the receipt). I would also say its unethical to return it to a store that you didn't buy it from for profit, knowing they will sell it for less than they gave you in credit (such as christmas lights 10 minutes before closing on christmas eve), again though places like walmart excluded.

[dino3333]

what is this walmart scam that everyone is talking about?

[imbrog]

If people want to run arbitrage on squeezing profits out of inconsistencies in market prices, there are easier and more lucrative avenues than new and used video games. If people want to take advantadge of a store's return policy, the trouble is that store may then change their policy so that it negatively affects everyone. You're shitting where you and the rest of us eat.

So maybe it does not violate your own personal code of conduct and maybe the store has taken no measures to forbid it, but you would not treat a friend that way. As I see it, it is a dick move to this community, especially a situation like the circuit city sale. Are we gamers or profiteers? I'd rather somebody get a good game for cheap, play the hell out of that game and maybe take a chance on a similar game next time (see: BG&E), then some clown scoop up that same $5 game because they know they can trade it in at store x or ebay it for some chumpchange.

Is it black and white? Not hardly, but flipping is purely selfish, and you have to realize no one else, especially other gamers, stands to benefit from your actions.

[AngellicLulu]

The problem that arises with flipping is hoarding. People buy up all the cheap games just to trade them in somewhere else that will price them more expensive. What about the people who wanted one of those cheap games on the cheap? You just screwed them out of it because you hoarded to flip. You're taking games from people who may actually want to play them instead of using them for a profit. That's the problem I see with flipping.

[Quillion]

I am surprised by the response so far because whenever this debate it brought up you see alot more people speaking out right against flipping but the fact is thier is nothing wrong with it and i lay down a personal chellenge for some one to prove other wise

I lay down a personal challenge to you to prove to me that murder is wrong.

You can't take a case of subjective morality and apply yours to every argument against it.

[JSweeney]

You can not just post something with out Proof to back up your statement bil4ltool

Here you go.

Title 17-A Maine Criminal code, Chapter 15: Theft.
§354. Theft by deception

1. A person is guilty of theft if:


A. The person obtains or exercises control over property of another as a result of deception and with intent to deprive the other person of the property. Violation of this paragraph is a Class E crime; or [2001, c. 383, §34 (new); §156 (aff).]

In this case, you are misrepresenting your purchase of the game, with the sole intent of depriving the Walmart Corporation of property (cash or product).

[depascal22]

I think the key is when you tell the customer service agent at Wal-Mart that you lost the receipt. Flipping isn't wrong as long as you do it withing the letter of the law. Buying 10 dollar games at Best Buy or whereever and flipping them on EBay for $20 isn't wrong, it's what makes America great. Buying a $10 game at Best Buy and lying to to Wal-Mart to get 50 bucks for the game is fraud. This situation is pretty black and white even though people would like to get morals involved in this.


It's a great time to be a cheap ass gamer.

[AlanSaysYo]

The problem that arises with flipping is hoarding. People buy up all the cheap games just to trade them in somewhere else that will price them more expensive. What about the people who wanted one of those cheap games on the cheap? You just screwed them out of it because you hoarded to flip. You're taking games from people who may actually want to play them instead of using them for a profit. That's the problem I see with flipping.

That's capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Do you see diamond miners stop mining early because there might be other people who want to find diamonds without paying a markup? Do you know of any instance where someone found an oil well but only took enough for their own use?

Perhaps we should rename the site Communist Ass Gamer and send "community enforcers" to buy up all the cheap games everywhere. Then we can all stand in really long lines for each game in hopes that they're not all gone by the time we get to the front of the line. Is that fair enough?

[unbroken]

Anyone who sees flipping as ilegal or not moral is a COMPLETE idiot. It's called taking advtage of the system, walmart has plenty of other shit to worry about than little Joey buying a game and returing it for more money, they are a multi million dollar company, they have nothing to lose. I have flipped over 2000$ store credit at blockbuster and even the manager thinks it's a good idea. Get over it and stop trying to justify flipping as being ilegal. After all, this is CHEAP ass gamers, were all here to save money and NOT help walmart or blockbuster make more.

[JSweeney]

That's capitalism, and there's nothing wrong with it.

Do you see diamond miners stop mining early because there might be other people who want to find diamonds without paying a markup? Do you know of any instance where someone found an oil well but only took enough for their own use?

Perhaps we should rename the site Communist Ass Gamer and send "community enforcers" to buy up all the cheap games everywhere. Then we can all stand in really long lines for each game in hopes that they're not all gone by the time we get to the front of the line. Is that fair enough?

You see, Alan, there are these people who actually have this thing called empathy.
They have a deep caring for the feelings and well being of others, and thus find actions that are purely self-centered to be distasteful.

By arguing in subjective terms, this entire argument becomes cyclical.

Comparing diamond miners to hoarders this situation is not apt.

1. If diamond miners stopped sooner, thier product would be more rare, and thus capable of demanding a higher price.

2. For profit ventures don't have thier geological studies for them gratis.

Information is just as valuable a commodity as a product.
When people are being kind and sharing thier information, which they could
have used for only their own profit, they don't like hearing some greedy person
talking about how they hoarded all of the things on sale, and then flipped them.
With no meeting of the minds, and the people providing deals reaping nothing
but ingratitude from selfish people trying to finance their entire habit off of the
knowldege of others, you'll be certain to see some discontent.

[thagoat]

Here you go.

Title 17-A Maine Criminal code, Chapter 15: Theft.
§354. Theft by deception

1. A person is guilty of theft if:


A. The person obtains or exercises control over property of another as a result of deception and with intent to deprive the other person of the property. Violation of this paragraph is a Class E crime; or [2001, c. 383, §34 (new); §156 (aff).]

In this case, you are misrepresenting your purchase of the game, with the sole intent of depriving the Walmart Corporation of property (cash or product).

thats an interesting interpretation. i still dont think it qualifies as theft.

[JSweeney]

Anyone who sees flipping as ilegal or not moral is a COMPLETE idiot. It's called taking advtage of the system, walmart has plenty of other shit to worry about than little Joey buying a game and returing it for more money, they are a multi million dollar company, they have nothing to lose. I have flipped over 2000$ store credit at blockbuster and even the manager thinks it's a good idea. Get over it and stop trying to justify flipping as being ilegal. After all, this is CHEAP ass gamers, were all here to save money and NOT help walmart or blockbuster make more.

Anyone thinks scamming walmart is legal is ignorant of the state laws in many jurisdictions. Maine, for instance.

Cheapassgamer does not equal selfish ass bastard. You can go to fatwallet if that kind of thing is your bag.

[judyjudyjudy]

I think there are arguments going for two separate flipping things: returns & trade ins. The trade-in stuff... I can see how that's up for debate. But I don't see how return frauds are ever justified. The whole point of returns is to get your money back from the store they amount they already took from you... you should be at the same point money-wise before your purchase and after your return. Returns are not meant for profiting.

And I really don't see how it's relevant whether store is Walmart, Best Buy, or a mom and pop shop. Just because you don't believe in a company's corporate structure and policies doesn't make it right to break the law in their store. It's not okay to steal or commit fraud in ANY store. I'm not going to pocket candies from Walmart because they can afford it or because they pay less than minimal wage or whatever.

[mykevermin]

And I really don't see how it's relevant whether store is Walmart, Best Buy, or a mom and pop shop. Just because you don't believe in a company's corporate structure and policies doesn't make it right to break the law in their store. It's not okay to steal or commit fraud in ANY store. I'm not going to pocket candies from Walmart because they can afford it or because they pay less than minimal wage or whatever.

Man, I fuckin' *hate* to defend WM here, but you're totally right. I'd rather just not fucking shop there. Flipping a copy of Primal there ain't gonna bring down the corporate behemoth, it's just going to put me ahead one game.

That having been said, there is plenty of room for debate on flipping in the sense of "buy low, sell high" in regards to trading in titles. I don't do it myself, but I don't really have the patience or fortitude (or time) for all that flipping bullshit. I'll just wait until a title I'm looking for drops in price (like $10 Chaos Theory!); in the end, though, it's a personal matter. I wouldn't mind one good goddamned bit, however, if stores like EB and GS kept individualized accounts that prohibited trading in more than one or two copies of the same game in a 6 month period. Can that be circumvented? Certainly. But if it makes it a bigger pain in the ass and a deterrent to asshole haorders, then power to the people. The stores ought to consider it; after all, who the 's gonna buy Black and Bruised, except for the whisky drunk and surly?

OTOH, the illegality of the Wal-Mart scam has been repeated over and over. SOME OF YOU MAY DO IT, BUT THAT DOESN'T MAKE IT LEGAL. Please keep that in mind when defending it. If you think it's legal, try this: try buying Game A for a low low price at store A; then, try returning that game at WM for full store credit WITHOUT LYING ABOUT THE GAME'S ORIGINS. If you can get away with it without lying, congratulations! You're not breaking the law. If you insinuate, knowingly, that the game CAME FROM WAL-MART ORIGINALLY, then you are a liar and thus guilty of fraud.

[Jeoff]

I don't care when people buy things to resell, it just makes me furious when they CLEAR OUT A PLACE COMPLETELY (see TRU or CC sales or BB penny guides).

If you want to Wal-Mart or buy 2 copies of a game (one to keep one to sell) that's fine with me, but please leave something on the shelf for the rest of us to buy please.

[shrike4242]

Always nice to see a thread where one side is making intelligent arguments and the other side is saying "fuck this company" and "fuck that company".

I know which side I'm behind. Please, continue with the lopsided arguments

[Javery]

I've thought about this issue for a while and, morals aside, I'm not sure if there is anything illegal about the "Wal-mart scam" especially if you don't lie to anyone in the process (and even that's iffy). Their own return policy accept returns from items not bought at the store (or at least that was the policy in 2002 after discussing it at length with a manager there). Not just on items not bought there that they carry but on ALL ITEMS whether they carry it or not (they find a comparable product that they do carry for pricing - also, the item has to be within reason - for example it has to be something they would ordinarily stock). This policy implicitly states that they do not care where the item comes from - they will give store credit for it. They know full well before they enter into the return "transaction" that the item could have come from anywhere and as long as you own it legally, there's nothing wrong with "selling" it back to them for whatever they deem as a fair price.

I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty but it is another way of looking at it. A strong case can be made for fraud, but I would argue that the "lie" of where the item was originally purchased is immaterial to the transaction based on their store policy. Wal-mart is too big to care about this. If enough people did it, you can bet they would change their policy though...

[Mr.Answer]

And I really don't see how it's relevant whether store is Walmart, Best Buy, or a mom and pop shop. Just because you don't believe in a company's corporate structure and policies doesn't make it right to break the law in their store. It's not okay to steal or commit fraud in ANY store. I'm not going to pocket candies from Walmart because they can afford it or because they pay less than minimal wage or whatever.

[shrike4242]

I've thought about this issue for a while and, morals aside, I'm not sure if there is anything illegal about the "Wal-mart scam" especially if you don't lie to anyone in the process (and even that's iffy). Their own return policy accept returns from items not bought at the store (or at least that was the policy in 2002 after discussing it at length with a manager there). Not just on items not bought there that they carry but on ALL ITEMS whether they carry it or not (they find a comparable product that they do carry for pricing - also, the item has to be within reason - for example it has to be something they would ordinarily stock). This policy implicitly states that they do not care where the item comes from - they will give store credit for it. They know full well before they enter into the return "transaction" that the item could have come from anywhere and as long as you own it legally, there's nothing wrong with "selling" it back to them for whatever they deem as a fair price.

I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty but it is another way of looking at it. A strong case can be made for fraud, but I would argue that the "lie" of where the item was originally purchased is immaterial to the transaction based on their store policy. Wal-mart is too big to care about this. If enough people did it, you can bet they would change their policy though...

Leave it to the lawyer to make it clearer.

Though, if this happens enough times, they will change their policy, and they're starting to do so, since I remember reading that they're working to have only 3 "no-receipt" refunds happen in a six month period. Should be 0, IMHO, though there's enough dumb people out there (myself included) that forget receipts that should be allowed to slide once. And only once.

[Javery]

Leave it to the lawyer to make it clearer.

Though, if this happens enough times, they will change their policy, and they're starting to do so, since I remember reading that they're working to have only 3 "no-receipt" refunds happen in a six month period. Should be 0, IMHO, though there's enough dumb people out there (myself included) that forget receipts that should be allowed to slide once. And only once.

yeah, I certainly wouldn't want to have to argue the case in front of a judge or anything because it certainly sounds like shady behavior. It's just that until a court has come down on the issue I don't think anyone can say as a 100% certainty that it is illegal. Until that time, there's always an argument to be made...

About their store policy, they probably view the amount of people who take advantage of the system as low compared to the amount of unhappy customers and additional lost business that would occur if they were to ban returns without a receipt outright. In a lot of towns in the middle of the country, Wal-Mart is the place to shop for everything...

[JSweeney]

I've thought about this issue for a while and, morals aside, I'm not sure if there is anything illegal about the "Wal-mart scam" especially if you don't lie to anyone in the process (and even that's iffy). Their own return policy accept returns from items not bought at the store (or at least that was the policy in 2002 after discussing it at length with a manager there). Not just on items not bought there that they carry but on ALL ITEMS whether they carry it or not (they find a comparable product that they do carry for pricing - also, the item has to be within reason - for example it has to be something they would ordinarily stock). This policy implicitly states that they do not care where the item comes from - they will give store credit for it. They know full well before they enter into the return "transaction" that the item could have come from anywhere and as long as you own it legally, there's nothing wrong with "selling" it back to them for whatever they deem as a fair price.

I'm not saying this is an absolute certainty but it is another way of looking at it. A strong case can be made for fraud, but I would argue that the "lie" of where the item was originally purchased is immaterial to the transaction based on their store policy. Wal-mart is too big to care about this. If enough people did it, you can bet they would change their policy though...

I think that would be an effective argument, javeryh.
However, I think intent would come into play in such an examination.
Though, I have a feeling a store would reject returns from a person long before they'd even chance it on the legal system, given the murkiness of the topic.

[Skelah]

What should be illegal is how you get treated for 'fliping' you get treated like you stole something .

Concidering how much they sell for these games ARE THEY EVEN LOSING ANY PROFIT????

I tell you what if they sold the game like 5 dollars more than what they give you used price then id say its wrong but if they wanna have crazy prices that are unfair and WRONG.

Then they deserve people legaly working there trade in deals..

Blockbuster should apologize to anyone who was banned for 'flipping' .


You got fucking adults that work at blockbuster giving 14 year old kids a hard time for 'flipping' stand back and see it for what it is an adult picking on a child cause the child wants to change there games in THAT ARE WORTH MORE THAN WHAT THERE GETTING ATLEAST IN BLOCKBUSTERS PRICING.

They give you like a dollar for some of these games they sell for 8 dollars yet were crooks???????

WHAT ABOUT SPORTS GAMES? HOW CAN YOU SELL A GAME FOR 50 BUCKS THEN TURN AROUND AND ONLY BUY IT BACK FOR LIKE 4 DOLLARS LESS THAN A YEAR???

HOW ABOUT EXCLUDING ALLS PORT TITLES FROM THERE TRADE IN DEALS IF YOUR GONNA DO THAT EXCLUDE SELLING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ASSHOLES YOUR RIPPING OFF LIL KIDS THAT WANNA PICK UP THAT LATEST HOCKEY OR BASEBALL GAME.

[mykevermin]

What should be illegal is how you get treated for 'fliping' you get treated like you stole something .

Concidering how much they sell for these games ARE THEY EVEN LOSING ANY PROFIT????

I tell you what if they sold the game like 5 dollars more than what they give you used price then id say its wrong but if they wanna have crazy prices that are unfair and WRONG.

Then they deserve people legaly working there trade in deals..

Blockbuster should apologize to anyone who was banned for 'flipping' .


You got fucking adults that work at blockbuster giving 14 year old kids a hard time for 'flipping' stand back and see it for what it is an adult picking on a child cause the child wants to change there games in THAT ARE WORTH MORE THAN WHAT THERE GETTING ATLEAST IN BLOCKBUSTERS PRICING.

They give you like a dollar for some of these games they sell for 8 dollars yet were crooks???????

WHAT ABOUT SPORTS GAMES? HOW CAN YOU SELL A GAME FOR 50 BUCKS THEN TURN AROUND AND ONLY BUY IT BACK FOR LIKE 4 DOLLARS LESS THAN A YEAR???

HOW ABOUT EXCLUDING ALLS PORT TITLES FROM THERE TRADE IN DEALS IF YOUR GONNA DO THAT EXCLUDE SELLING THEM IN THE FIRST PLACE ASSHOLES YOUR RIPPING OFF LIL KIDS THAT WANNA PICK UP THAT LATEST HOCKEY OR BASEBALL GAME.

FOR THE LOVE OF GOD, WON'T SOMEONE THINK OF THE CHILDREN!?!?!

[Javery]

I think that would be an effective argument, javeryh.
However, I think intent would come into play in such an examination.
Though, I have a feeling a store would reject returns from a person long before they'd even chance it on the legal system, given the murkiness of the topic.

I think at the end of the day it would be very difficult to convince a court that this type of activity would be legal. I don't know if intent would come into play though because there are tons of crimes you can commit where your intent is irrelevant - felony-murder being the biggest (for example you light your house on fire to collect the insurance not knowing that someone was inside - no intent to kill but you are getting charged and convicted of murder nonetheless).

I do agree that in our situation intent makes all the difference in the world though - it's hard to charge grandma with a crime for forgetting where she bought Halo not knowing everyone already owns it and returning it to Walmart just because they will take a return without a receipt. It's quite different from you or I trying to make money off "the system" even though the result is the same as when grandma does it. This is why I think intent should matter but it doesn't - at the end of the day it's almost impossible to prove. I really don't know the answer...

[briansraregames]

I hate to revisit this thread, but i just got a copy of wrestlemania XXI at the TRU sale that I could flip at walmart for an easy $45. My thoughts are this, both myself and walmart are profiting by this.

For example:

Walmart.................Me

....$0 .................. -$10................. After purchasing the WWE game from TRU
..-$45 .................+$35 .................After flipping the game to walmart
....$0 ...................STUFF............... After me using my walmart gift card
..+$45................ STUFF................ Walmart sells the WWE game to someone else

So, in the end, walmart gets $45, $30 of which is probably profit, and I have stuff that I want or need. So, it seems to be that walmart should encourage flipping, not discourage against it.